Starter Rifle

[aervin]

Hello all,

I am interested in buying my first rifle. A little background info so you can get a better idea of my needs/desires: The ranges around my area only go out to 300 yards, so this would be my starting point (I realize this isn't very far, but it will be a start). I want to have something that won't be too costly to shoot since this is merely for personal enjoyment, I do not plan to use it in competition or anything where I need a more specialized cartridge so I'm thinking .308 is the way to go. The plan is really to only shoot from a bench so weight doesn't matter, I would think heavier is better though. Having a bull barrel, I would think, would be desired for those reasons as well. I would like to keep the cost of the rifle under $600, yes I know this is pretty low, but the options I was looking at initially were the Savage 10 FP-SR, or the Tikka T3 Lite. The Tikka does not have the heavy barrel but I've read so many good things about their rifles on this site so if having a standard barrel isn't much of a downside then Tikka would still be a great option. I could later on down the road re-barrel it with a 7.62 Hammer Forged Barrel that I can get just the chambered blank for and do the finish work on the barrel myself. I am a machinist by trade for a firearms manufacture so re-barreling won't be much of an issue.

Opinions between the two rifles is welcome, pros and cons of each. Ideas for different rifles is also welcome.

Please don't respond telling me that my budget is too low for this kind of sport. I'm sure I can get a great starting rifle for this price and could eventually upgrade it if I so desired. I do not want to build a rifle right off the bat, I'd rather have an out of the box shooter, with potential for upgrades later on.

One final note: the barrel blank would be hammer forged in 7.62 with a hammer forged chamber and I could get a 26" barrel out of the blank, priced under $100 for the blank (unsure on exact price).

I hope I provided sufficient info to get accurate responses, if I left something out please ask. Thanks for taking the time to read (I feel like I went on a little bit)!

-Alex

 

[BangBangBlatBlat]

Both are good choices. Have you considered .223 Remington? It can do everything a .308 can for paper punching, at a lower cost, and with less recoil...Which is a joy to shoot.

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk

 

[kansas]

Both are good choices. Have you considered .223 Remington? It can do everything a .308 can for paper punching, at a lower cost, and with less recoil...Which is a joy to shoot.

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk

I agree with .223. It's underestimated by many and is easy to load for and plenty of factory ammo at a cheaper price than good .308. I shoot long range with a couple of guys that shoot .223 and do pretty good out to 700-800 yards. My .308 struggles past those ranges so not much of a disadvantage. Brass is plentiful and bullets are in stock most of the time.
If you are dead set on a .308 then either would make a fine starter rifle. Don't change the barrel out yet. Spend that money on as good of glass as you can afford and shoot it.

 

[Hairball]

+1 on the 5.56/.223 as you intend on shooting paper at 300 yards or less. Additionally, this caliber is a good choice for the first time shooter to learn on without any form of increased recoil that you may find in other larger calibers. I am trying to get my wife out shooting but since I shoot larger calibers, I bought a Mossberg MVP predator so she won't pull the trigger one time and call it quits.

 

[fx77]

Would U consider a used Remington 700 as a starter...Can always move up as your interest grows?

 

[lawman29]

Ditto on .223 for your purposes. Savage 12 FV you should be able to get for ~ $600.

 

[aervin]

The reason I was leaning towards (but not dead set on) .308 was its ability to reach out further than .223. Even though the ranges here are only out to 300 I figure I shouldn't limit myself on the distance I would be able to shoot based on the caliber. I'd rather be the limiting factor in distance more than the bullet I'd be shooting, if that makes sense. I'm still very much in the research phase of this decision, so that is why I turned here, exactly for this advice.

I've shot both .223 and .308 and I don't mind the recoil of each, I do understand how .223 will be more pleasurable for long days at the range. The cost point of .223 vs .308 is a nice added benefit. If I could get out 7-800 yards with .223 I'd be perfectly happy with that.

I own a Savage Mark II-FV in .22lr and it has been a pure joy to shoot. I mostly shoot that at 100 yards and under. I really only plink with it but I know I can hit a mason jar at 100 yards no problem. I've put it on paper a few times but really only at 30 yards to sight it in and getting a five shot group to all touch isn't hard from the bench. If I stick with Savage, I would believe the feel of the gun would be very similar and should be helpful in transitioning.

I haven't considered Remington 700 much because from what I've read, it seems like the accuracy of the lower end production guns ins't quite there compared to the higher end models and also compared to comparable brands at similar price points. This is just the sense I've gotten from reading on this forum and forums alike.

Is there any input on heavy barrel versus a standard contour for my intended use? Will it make that much of a difference, and will I be able to notice it?

Thanks,
-Alex

 

[turbo54]

Please consider a Howa 1500, either in 223 or 308.

The Howa is a MUCH finer rifle than a Remington or Savage, and has many nice features most people spend a bunch of money upgrading their Remington to.

Plus they're cheaper than either Remington or Savage.

Only bummer is the 223 has a 1:12 barrel, which is great for itty bitty vmax bullets, but not longer range target bullets. Still, it'll do right nice at 300 yards.

Range of 223 vs 308:

A 1:8 twist 223 with 75 or 80gr Ajax bullets will nearly outshoot a 308 (with common 175gr bullets) to ~750 yards. The 308 will hit much harder at any distance, but the trajectories are very similar.

 

[Pester]

Alex,
Welcome to the Hide and you will likely find a lot of different answers to your question from the good folks here. My thoughts are below:

1. Regardless you are not likely to go too far wrong with any of the choices you and others have listed for brands
2. .223 is generally much less expensive to shoot and its a fun round. If you are shooting for fun (rather than work) the consumables end up being expensive over time so a less expensive round allows you to get to shoot more, save more, learn more so you can get to your dream rifle sooner
3. Spend money on the optics. I forgot what SnipersHide Sage said it but they mentioned generally the glass should cost 1.5 or higher as compared to the rifle. While I cant afford any of the really high end glass it certainly helps. And I think the same gent said something pithy like 'if you cant see it you cant hit it'
4. Dont be afraid of buying used from reputable folks here. There are some really great deals that can get you into an amazing rifle for less than you could really build it. Regardless of caliber
5. For me, the case for the Rem 700 platform is its easy to grow in many different directions and almost all accessory manufacturers make their products for the Rem 700. I have never been able to find data supporting claims that, on a dollar to dollar basis, other manufacturers are better or worse than the Remingtons.

Have fun and listen to the cumulative wisdom of the experts here. They can, most of the time, be helpful.

 

[Graham]

I'm not sure whether there is a fast twist .223 in your price range, but the Tikka would be ideal.

 

[aervin]

After more research and listening to all the advice, I think I've narrowed the list down.
In no particular order:

Tikka T3 Lite, 22" barrel, 1:8 twist, $521
Savage 12 FV, 26" barrel*, 1:9 twist, $584
Howa 1500 Hogue, 22" barrel, 1:12 twist, $434
Rem 700 SPS Tac, 20" barrel*, 1:9 twist, $610
Rem 700 SPS, 24" barrel, 1:12 twist, $569
Rem 700 SPS, 26" barrel*, 1:12 twist, $562

Barrels marked with a * are heavy barrel. All prices are from Bud's Gun Shop.

The Tikka is the rifle with the fastest twist and is on the lower end as far as price. When considering twist rate and barrel length, I'm leaning towards the Tikka and the Savage for the faster twist rates and longer barrel. The Savage seems to be a better option than the Rem 700 SPS Tac since it has the same twist and both are heavy barrel, but the Savage is 26" as opposed to 20", and less expensive. From that list I'm still leaning towards the Tikka or Savage. Slight edge to Tikka because of price (more left over for glass).

Thank you all for the input. If anyone still has opinions or advice please still chime in. I won't be buying for probably a couple of months, but I figure I'll get the research done right before spending my hard earned money.

-Alex

 

[Artifact]

I would go with a R700, I think they even have a $40 rebate until the end of the year.

 

[BoilerUP]

Give the Savage 11 Hog Hunter a look.

You'll have to remove the iron sights, and you'll REALLY want a better stock...but its a very attractive price and the 1:9 barrel should shoot 75gr HPBT and 77gr SMK/CCs just fine.

After handling a Tikka there is no denying it is a vastly superior action design to a Savage...but I'd be a little leery of the new 1:10 barrels which might be marginal even with 69gr bullets.

 

[MoBoost]

After more research and listening to all the advice, I think I've narrowed the list down.
In no particular order:

Tikka T3 Lite, 22" barrel, 1:8 twist, $521
Savage 12 FV, 26" barrel*, 1:9 twist, $584
Howa 1500 Hogue, 22" barrel, 1:12 twist, $434
Rem 700 SPS Tac, 20" barrel*, 1:9 twist, $610
Rem 700 SPS, 24" barrel, 1:12 twist, $569
Rem 700 SPS, 26" barrel*, 1:12 twist, $562

Don't forget:
Savage Hog Hunter 20" 1:9 $425.

P.S. Dang, got beat by 2 min

 

[ashiha]

Alex,
Welcome to the Hide and you will likely find a lot of different answers to your question from the good folks here. My thoughts are below:

1. Regardless you are not likely to go too far wrong with any of the choices you and others have listed for brands
2. .223 is generally much less expensive to shoot and its a fun round. If you are shooting for fun (rather than work) the consumables end up being expensive over time so a less expensive round allows you to get to shoot more, save more, learn more so you can get to your dream rifle sooner
3. Spend money on the optics. I forgot what SnipersHide Sage said it but they mentioned generally the glass should cost 1.5 or higher as compared to the rifle. While I cant afford any of the really high end glass it certainly helps. And I think the same gent said something pithy like 'if you cant see it you cant hit it'
4. Dont be afraid of buying used from reputable folks here. There are some really great deals that can get you into an amazing rifle for less than you could really build it. Regardless of caliber
5. For me, the case for the Rem 700 platform is its easy to grow in many different directions and almost all accessory manufacturers make their products for the Rem 700. I have never been able to find data supporting claims that, on a dollar to dollar basis, other manufacturers are better or worse than the Remingtons.

Have fun and listen to the cumulative wisdom of the experts here. They can, most of the time, be helpful.

I agree with everything but the scope costing 1.5x the rifle's price. It is a guideline that was set improperly and seems outdated at best. I agree that you should spend more and get good optics and never go cheap, but I don't like the guideline as it could be wildly inaccurate for a lot of people. An example would be if you bought a GAP at ~$4000. You wouldn't expect to pay another $6000 in optics. etc.

I think the 223 will be a fun starter rifle for you. A lot of guys compete with 223 in the high power division with match ARs with nothing but iron sights out to 600 yards. 308 has more kick and can buck the wind a little better, but also costs a fair amount more to shoot. I think you should start with 223 then move onto something bigger on your second rifle like a 260 remington. You will know what you want when the time comes.

As far as brand goes, each has their strong points and weaknesses, but they are all great rifles otherwise you wouldn't hear of them. Just go with your preference and never look back.

 

[sortafast]

A T3 of some sort is on my short list for a hunting rifle. They are sweet sweet guns. That said, savages tend to pack some sweet value for the cost. Plus if you ever want to swap calibers its cheap and quick to swap out barrels. But out of the box, a varmint barreled savage with a FF barrel can do really really well. I have a new Rem 700 varmint in 308 that I bought new a few months ago. I think it was $450 out the door. I am not super happy with the quality but I hope it will be a shooter. I have yet to put a round through it though. I will say this though, I much prefer the way the remingtons firing pin/FCG works over the savage. Plus there is more aftermarket support for the Rem 700's.

 

[redneckbmxer24]

I wouldn't want a light weight 308 for target shooting either, the 223 is sound advice and with its 1:8 twist the tikka is a good choice. If you want more you can always ream it out to 223AI.

For inside of 300 yards 22 is also a good choice and will teach you a lot about wind for minimal cost.

 

[steve123]

Tikka gets my vote.

 

[aervin]

Thanks for all of the replies. I think I have a pretty good list here as far as rifles are concerned with all of the input. The .223 looks like it would be well suited for a starter (especially since I'll be starting at a max of 300 yards). I've been shooting my .22lr for a good bit now but mostly at reactive targets and not really looking at groupings on paper, might be a good idea to do that at maybe 100 yards or so. My next step is to get into a gun store and handle a few of these rifles, I think I've done sufficient research on the computer but nothing can replace the real feel of the rifle. Then I'll need to start researching optics and accessories, just getting the ducks in a row before I buy anything.

 

[N0mad]

Great thread guys answered a lot of questions for me as well... I currently have a CZ 452 .22 and an AR .223 with a Bravo Company 16" upper. I want another bolt rifle with better precision than the AR and a flatter trajectory than the CZ. I already have all of the rods, jags and maintenance equipment for the .22 cal and the max range distance I have access to is only 200 yards. Sounds like I'm in the market for a new or used bolt rifle in .223 as well.

 

[Rediculous]

Buy a used action and send it to get re barreled may be an option to get what you want.

 

[N0mad]

Buy a used action and send it to get re barreled may be an option to get what you want.

Say a fella was going to go the used action route... Any recommendations what to keep an eye out for?

 

[Rediculous]

I like HOWA actions for a budget build or a rem 700 action, then find a nice match barrel in the twist rate and cal. you want.

 

[sortafast]

Say a fella was going to go the used action route... Any recommendations what to keep an eye out for?

I have found that alot of times its cheaper/easier to just buy a complete gun then strip it down. Savages are the best for this. You can usually grab one for $300 and shoot it in the mean time whilst you buy parts for it. Then you can swap everything yourself with just 2-3 tools and a set of H/S gauges. Actions for savages tend to be around $200 and up where as you can buy a used gun complete for $300 and sometimes for less. I once scored an old stevens 110 (same dang thing as a savage 110) for $250 with a scope at a gun shop. I picked up a used 700 L/A for $350 and a brand new 308 varmint from Dick's Sporting Goods for $450. I have no clue what rem actions go for, but I have seen some Rem 700's down in the mid to high 2's on the cheap side. But those are mostly long actions. Short actions can be a bit harder to come by. Just really depends on how long you want to wait and how much you want to pay.