Starting from scratch.

[msc]

If you had to buy everything again what components would you buy and why? Precision Rifle, 300 win mag, 308, 223, 260, 284. Some carbine 223, 308. This would be a buy once cry once purchase and not all at one time.
Single stage Press.
Scale/powder trickler.
Trimmer.
Prep tools.
Progressive press.
Tumbler/media type.
Priming tool.
Dies.

 

[Clark]

Re: Starting from scratch.

The first weapon you should get is a stick.
Work your way up to 22 rimfire single shot rifle.
By the time you are reloading for your centerfire rifle, you will probably have strong inflexible opinions about everything.

 

[milo 2.0]

Re: Starting from scratch.

MSC,
You'll need everything on your list except progressive press, and more, small tools mostly. You can buy the prog press if needed.
Fuck that .22 rimfire horseshit.

 

[msc]

Re: Starting from scratch.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Clark</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The first weapon you should get is a stick.
Work your way up to 22 rimfire single shot rifle.
By the time you are reloading for your centerfire rifle, you will probably have strong inflexible opinions about everything. </div></div>
What? Was that supposed to be funny? I was looking for opinions on reloading tools from guy's who have been doing it for a while and have bought or tried different setups and manufacturers. I want to start reloading and want to buy the tools that most people have success with and like. I am looking for tools that will last over the years regardless of price. Nowhere in my post did I mention any weapon.

 

[msc]

Re: Starting from scratch.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: milo-2</div><div class="ubbcode-body">MSC,
You'll need everything on your list except progressive press, and more, small tools mostly. You can buy the prog press if needed.
Fuck that .22 rimfire horseshit. </div></div>
I know I need all these things to start reloading. I am looking for the best of each. Like a dream team of reloading tools. It only makes sense to me to get the best tools first and save yourself the hassle later of upgrading.

 

[milo 2.0]

Re: Starting from scratch.

Best thing to do is get around people who own this stuff, and form your own judgement. Just because I like something, doesn't mean you will.

Hell, I want a Giruad trimmer, but I own a Rcbs power case trimmer with 3way cutters for all calibers, and a trim mate. So I have to almost give my stuff away, $400.00 worth, to buy one, makes no sense.
So like I say, get around the stuff, it can only help.

 

[Greg Langelius *]

Re: Starting from scratch.

Don't buy something you'll want to replace later. Buy once, not twice; single stage vs progressive, the answer is obvious to me.

I seldom need to trim, so a simple, manual trimmer serves me.

Tumbler, the type that has a media drain allows the tumbler to be its own separator.

My only prep tool is a flash hole reamer.

My progressive is a Dillon RL550B; so priming and powder charging are parts of the cycle, and the press can perform steps just like a single stage if needed. The progressive has features that can save some.

I use SAAMI chambers, and do fine with basic RCBS 2-die sets.

A Savage MKIIF serves my Trainer rifle needs. Centerfire rifle; you're on your own.

Greg

 

[clmayfield]

Re: Starting from scratch.

- Mitutoyo Calipers
- Sinclair Bump Gauge Body and Insert for Caliber
- Sinclair Hex Style Bullet Comparator
- Hornady LNL OAL gauge - get the bent version for semi-autos it works for bolt and semi-auto
- Sinclair Digital Case Neck Micrometer
- Sinclair Concentricity Gauge (I wouldn't buy the NECO for concentricity)

These items will allow you to measure what you need to measure. I would consider all necessary except for maybe the Sinclair Digital Case Neck Micrometer. You will need some sort of Micrometer to figure out neck thickness so you know what size bushings to buy in various calibers, and that is the best. I rarely use mine any more. I used mine for turning necks and for sorting brass.

I had a Neil Jones Custom Die made. In order to do this, you must neck only size for three firings, then send Neil the fired cases and he makes you a die based on the thrice fired casings. I bought a Redding Die to Neck Only Size. I bought the micrometer version, which is overkill for neck-only sizing (for what I do). I size in two steps using the Redding die first to size to do 80% of the sizing on the neck, and then a Neil Jones for full length sizing after neck only sizing. This aids in concentricity. Spring for the titanium nitride bushings on the Redding neck dies. Because you can.

For seating, I have the Neil Jones Custom Seater, both the threaded die and the arbor press (Wilson) style die. I also have the Redding Competition Seater. The Redding Competition Seater is just as good as the Neil Jones and cheaper. I see no benefit to the Wilson style seater. Maybe if I were seating at the range. Concentricity is no better. And I have measured many many rounds.

For a single stage, I like the Forster Co-ax. It will not do well sizing cases larger than 30-06. The Harrel's Tooling Turret Press is a very nice conventional press that doesn't get a lot of mention here. If I did not have a Co-ax, I would probably own that... if only to tick off fans of the Redding T7.

For a progressive press, I would get a Dillon. I have the 650. The 550 would be fine. The reason to go with the Dillon over the Hornady AP, another fine press, is that there are lots of mods available including the tool head clamp by Unique Tek and the Floating Die Toolhead by John Whidden as well as scores of other mods. I would not start with a progressive regardless. You need to learn to operate a single stage press. Period.

Cleaning - I use Thumler's Tumbler and Stainless Steel Media and buy Hornady Ultrasonic Case Cleaner as a solution. There is none better. This works a lot better than the Dawn and Citrinox that I was using. There is a home brew formula around here for solution. Skip it. It does not do as well as Hornady US Case Cleaner.

For a trimmer - Giraud. Enough said.

For a priming tool- Sinclair's makes the best for feel, but it is slow to use. It is what I use.

I have a pocket uniformer and a flash hole uniformer that I never use because I buy Lapua brass and clean with SS media. If I did not use SS Media, the pocket uniformer would be great for cleaning pockets, and I have used it for that one or twice. I bought them from a nice couple who got a mention in Zediker's book on precision reloading. Nice people. Can't remember the name of the company.

For powdering, the Prometheus is the best, if you can afford it. Next comes the Sartorius GD-503 scale with a Lee Perfect Powder Measure and Omega Trickler. The GD-503 is much more expensive now than when I bought it. Still, if you want to use the best scale available, it is it. Below that is the Sartorius AY-123 with the Omega Trickler and Lee Perfect Powder Measure. The AY-123 drifts a lot and is infuriatingly variable. You will need to get a block of granite to sit it on for stability. You will need to get a line conditioner to assure consistent electrical current. You will need to keep it away from fluorescent light and cell phones while in use. You will do all of this and it will still drift on you. You need to rezero it with each charge. This will get you more precise charge weights than the RCBS Chargemaster. If +/- about a tenth of a grain is ok with you, the Chargemaster is a less aggravating solution than the AY-123, but the AY-123 will get you more precision. If you get the Chargemaster, reprogram it and use the McDonald's straw trick.

Case lube - imperial sizing die wax. I wipe it off with some rubbing alcohol and a yellow microfibre cloth you can buy at Costco. For turning necks, I use the Hornady Unique Case Lube and glob it on. Don't ask me why I use Imperial for sizing and Unique for turning. I do it mainly because it is cheaper and it doesn't feel as consistent as the Imperial.

Sharpie marker. You will need it during load development to write charge weights and seating depths on cases. You might need it to detect burrs or to see high points when turning. If you want to mark the high side after running for concentricity, it is also handy. You will need a sharpie marker. If you use the ladder test, different colors are good, too. If you color the ogive and shank of the bullet, it will rub off on the target, identifying bullet holes.

On Target analysis software... a must for load development.

Fun stuff for extra credit (hardly necessary, but oh, so fun):

John Whidden Bullet pointing tool. Uniforms bullet points, shrinking the meplat, and gives you a little extra BC.

Montour Rifle Meplat Trimmer (MCR Trimmer). I don't often trim meplats, but when I do, I prefer the MCR. It actually has a neat little gadget that lets you re-hollow out the hollow point after you trim the meplat. Hey, if you are anal enough to trim meplats, you will be anal enough to re-uniform the tip. Besides, I used the Sinclair, and while it is easy to use, because it is made of plastic, how much is trimmed depends on how much pressure you put on the bullet.

If you get the meplat trimmer, you are going to want to run it with a DeWalt cordless screwdriver. You will need it for turning necks as well.

Speaking of neck turners, this is hardly necessary, but I do it religiously. I turn twice before firing, first to remove 80% of the material, then I turn it down a little more and turn a second time. This gets us a nice uniform neck thickness. Now shoot that brass a couple of times and your neck sizes will be all over the place again. Turn again after 3 firings. That is when most of the brass flows forward to the neck.

But back to the gear. I like the Pumpkin turner by Neilson for a couple of reasons. The shape makes it easy to grasp, the wide blade makes for nice even cuts and also acts as a heat sink for when you turn at high speeds. The eccentric design makes adjusting pretty easy. Buy these from Bruno's Shooters Supply. If you get the turner, you will need to get sizing mandrels as well. You will find that you need to use these mandrels any way to have from time to time. If I drop a case on the floor and bend the neck, I will often pop it in the mandrel die before resizing.

I have tried turning with a drill press, turning with a cordless screwdriver, and turning by hand. The drill press was horrible. The cordless screwdriver was better. I have found turning by hand to be best consistency wise. For a caseholder, I like the Sinclair caseholder. I tried one from Midway that looked great but did not work as well. I use a ratcheting screwdriver handle and chuck the Sinclair caseholder in there, but if you want to use the DeWalt cordless screwdriver, you can chuck it in there as well.

I haven't been reloading too long, but I have a lot of crap. I actually use most of it. If I don't use it any more, I have told you why. In case you figured it out, I don't know how to do cheap, but I know how to do it right. I reload pistol to save money. I will have to reload for 50 years to pay myself back for all of the reloading gear I have spent on precision rifle stuff. Come to think of it... I might just get to pay myself back.

 

[Longguns]

Re: Starting from scratch.

Look at Sinclair for you needs and you can talk to someone about your needs.

 

[afrancke]

Re: Starting from scratch.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: msc</div><div class="ubbcode-body">This would be a buy once cry once purchase and not all at one time.</div></div>

Generally I'm of the same mindset, and approached buying my setup the same way, though I've learned since that at least one reason for the wide variety of options available is the variation in needs depending on:

<ul style="list-style-type: disc">[*]where you will load (home or at the range)[*]what you're loading, and how much of it[*]what techniques you're currently experimenting with (neck sizing vs. full length resizing, etc.)[*]how much importance you put on spotless, shiny brass[/list]

I really think everybody should consider what sort of setup would be practical for the the range vs. home at a minimum. It may be that you are willing to haul a heavy press to the range and give yourself the full flexibility of using any of your dies, or you may prefer to use an arbor press (with associated limitations on what operations you can undertake). I have done both, and it's nice to be able to go light sometimes.

There are tradeoffs to everything, and "the best" tends to be situational above a certain price and quality point; below a certain quality threshold, of course, certain gear is not going to be the best in any situation. A good example is brass cleaning. The stainless steel tumbling method is fantastic at getting all the dirt off and getting the cases to a brilliant shine. It is also a relatively high-effort, low-volume method (as compared to tumbling in walnut or corn media) and will round over the casemouth, degrading or eliminating the nice sharp angles that a Giraud will put on them; the longer the cases tumble, the more rounding occurs. You can certainly try to figure out what the minimum tumbling time is that gets the brass clean enough for you but also avoids as much casemouth rounding as possible to suit your preferences - but that's a mitigation to what I'd say is just an inherent weakness to tumbling with steel. What makes the steel great is also a weakness if left running too long, in other words.

Scales are probably another obvious area where compromises must be accepted. You are not going to haul a Prometheus to the range, I'd wager, even if you chose to buy once and cry once for home.

Finally, it's nice not to have to grab your gear ad-hoc from the home setup to take to the range, but rather have a dedicated setup in a bag or some other transportation method. I always forget something when I go to the range with my reloading gear. Something crucial - and sometimes I have to go back home to get it, and if I'm lucky it's "just" batteries I can buy locally. So, plan on perhaps buying two setups anyway with a minimum of overlap.

 

[BirdEyes]

Re: Starting from scratch.

You wouldn't go wrong following Carter's list. So using that as a basis, I'll add the following comments:

Forster's competition seating dies are at least the equivalent of Redding's and the markings are a little easier to read and they are a little cheaper than Redding's.

Harrell's turret press is great but does have limitations on cartridges you can load. The Co-ax does too but I wouldn't want to be without mine and I'm unlikely to want to load anything it won't.

Many world class shooters use the Dillon 550 over the 650. Either way, they need mods as Carter points out to bring out their best potential.

As for cleaning, the SS media probably gets brass the cleanest with the least effort. There is also something to be said for ultrasonic units too. You can use them to clean gun parts, etc as well as brass. If you don't care about the inside of the brass being shiny, dry media works but I'll clean the primer pockets with a Sinclair primer pocket uniformer.

The Giraud trimmer is world class and a big time saver. If you place any value at all on your time, it is a worthwhile investment.

The Sinclair priming tool is the best as well as the most expensive. Surprising enough, the low cost Lee tool has a great feel too at less than 25% of the cost of the Sinclair and is faster to operate.

The only thing I would add to Carter's comments about powdering is that if you elect to go the RCBS Chargemaster route, plan on getting two of them. Otherwise using only one slows you down even with the reprogramming.

The rest of the input is great too. The Sinclair case holder will save frustration. Everything is subjective but using his list lowers the odds of you regreting buying something you'll regret owning later.

 

[msc]

Re: Starting from scratch.

All great info. I will be using this all at home reloading not traveling. My range is not setup for bench reloading.

 

[afrancke]

Re: Starting from scratch.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: msc</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I will be using this all at home reloading not traveling. My range is not setup for bench reloading.</div></div>

That's too bad. It is a big handicap in my opinion to not be able to load at the range. To illustrate, trip #1 is a ladder test or OCW or some similar gross approach. Trip #2 is a fine-tuning within a smaller powder charge range. Trip #3 is then maybe fine tuning seating depth, if you care to. All of that could be handled in a single session if you had the possibility of loading at your shooting bench. It's actually better, I'd say, to load away from the shooting bench so that you can do it during ceasefire if you're at a public range, but you get the point.

 

[Clark]

Re: Starting from scratch.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: msc</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Clark</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The first weapon you should get is a stick.
Work your way up to 22 rimfire single shot rifle.
By the time you are reloading for your centerfire rifle, you will probably have strong inflexible opinions about everything. </div></div>
What? Was that supposed to be funny? I was looking for opinions on reloading tools from guy's who have been doing it for a while and have bought or tried different setups and manufacturers. I want to start reloading and want to buy the tools that most people have success with and like. I am looking for tools that will last over the years regardless of price. Nowhere in my post did I mention any weapon. </div></div>

I have answered the same general question enough times
http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthre...133#Post2959133

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: afrancke</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: msc</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I will be using this all at home reloading not traveling. My range is not setup for bench reloading.</div></div>

That's too bad. It is a big handicap in my opinion to not be able to load at the range. .. </div></div>
Here is me reloading at the range last month.
That took an hour or two to set up.
A cub scout project.

 

[afrancke]

Re: Starting from scratch.

Very nice! Solves the wind messing with the scale nicely. Do you sit in there on a stool, or what?

 

[Clark]

Re: Starting from scratch.

A little kid's chair.

 

[culater]

Re: Starting from scratch.

That the way to go when you decide to want work up a load.Save lots of time and gas money.Dont for get a good chronygraph.

 

[clmayfield]

Re: Starting from scratch.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Clark</div><div class="ubbcode-body">A little kid's chair.</div></div>

Ha! I do the same thing when I am seating at home. I like to have my press eye level for seating. Maybe we should put kid's chair on the list.

And while I don't load at the range, I can see where that might be helpful for load development when you are at what you think to be max load and velocity is not what you want and you don't see pressure signs. I have seen that way too often.

I already wait too much for the wind to die down before taking a shot. I would hate to have to wait for the wind to die to drop a charge! I guess getting a van solves that!

 

[clmayfield]

Re: Starting from scratch.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BirdEyes</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Forster's competition seating dies are at least the equivalent of Redding's and the markings are a little easier to read and they are a little cheaper than Redding's.
</div></div>

I was going to throw out a mention for those. It is the same basic technology as the Redding.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BirdEyes</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
As for cleaning, the SS media probably gets brass the cleanest with the least effort. There is also something to be said for ultrasonic units too. You can use them to clean gun parts, etc as well as brass. If you don't care about the inside of the brass being shiny, dry media works but I'll clean the primer pockets with a Sinclair primer pocket uniformer.
</div></div>

I don't have one, but I was thinking of getting a US unit to clean my 1911 parts... and perhaps using it to wash off the lube after sizing. I hate what I am doing now. If Giraud made some kind of a lube cleaner offer, I would be first in line to buy one. I am thinking it would look like one of those shoe buffing wheels at the Sharper Image and would involve an auger somehow.

 

[clmayfield]

Re: Starting from scratch.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 308 supsonic</div><div class="ubbcode-body">That the way to go when you decide to want work up a load.Save lots of time and gas money.Dont for get a good chronygraph. </div></div>

I totally forgot. I use the CED Millenium, which is the best value out there. You need to get the infrared screens to make sure it works in all light conditions.

Now there are many more expensive units out there. Ohler started making the Model 35 again and I was inches away from buying one when I realized that I just could not justify the price. And look at all the crap I own! I like the idea of a proof channel. Makes great engineering sense. And the Millenium is made of cheap plastic. But when you get on down to it, the Millenium works. It uses newer technology to give a higher level of accuracy with cheaper parts.

That is why I like the Forster Co-ax. It needn't be 100% square because it floats. Now look at the Dillon 650 tool head. I have heard it said that the tolerances are loose because its floating. To quote Zediker, "that's not floating, it's sinking." Which of the several dies in the Dillon is finding its own center? Usually, the sizing die will win the battle with the seater. Which induces bullet runout and COAL variation.

That is not loose by design. I'ts loose so they can buy a cheap cast block as opposed to a more expensive machined part. Same with the Lee cast iron presses. Yes, strong as a rock, but not loosy goosey because it is floating. Loosey goosey so they can make it cheap. And nothing wrong with that. Many people make fine ammo with Lee presses. I don't.

 

[clmayfield]

Re: Starting from scratch.

On the CED Millenium, that is the Millenium 2.

Also for annealers, I like the Bench Source Vertex. I like it because it turns as it burns. The Giraud machine looks very good as well, although the biggest apparent benefit over the Vertex is that it feeds a big pile of brass. Given the fact that you would never leave an annealer unattended, I don't see that as a big advantage.

I do like the fact that the Giraud appears to stay set up. For storage, I take my tanks off and have to set it up again every single time.

 

[MitchAlsup]

Re: Starting from scratch.

You know, I'M torn, here.

There are all sorts of excellent reasons a 22LR is the prefect first gun,
There are all sorts of excellent reasons a pelleg gun is the prefect first gun,
There are all sorts of execllent reasons a bolt action 22LR is the prefect first gun,
<da, da, da,...>

The thing is, if you think you would like guns, and want to enter the hobby/lifestyle/obsession then basically you pick your desired entry point and start getting into it*. You can make a good start by choosing a gun that costs little to shoot, you can start by choosing a gun you like the styling of, you can start by flipping a coin (and in most cases the actual determination is inconsequential). You will either like shooting and it will becom a passion, or you will blow through it aftre 6-36 mnths, have a good time, meet lots of interesting characters, and feel better off in the long run having done it, even if you don't continue--long term. {that is: low loss high gain scenario.}

(*) with friends who are already into it, or new friends you meet at the shooting ranges.

 

[insight3b]

Re: Starting from scratch.

This is what I started on:
http://www.midwayusa.com/product/735723/lee-classic-loader-308-winchester

It is the least expensive option and will give you a grasp of reloading. The ammo produce by it is accurate and reliable but you can only use that ammo in the rifle the case was originally fired in as it only neck sizes. Perfect for bolt actions.
I would also get a good caliper and a scale.
My grandfather would pay me a nickle for each round I loaded for him back in 1980. The lee loader gave me a solid foundation in understanding reloading

 

[milo 2.0]

Re: Starting from scratch.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MitchAlsup</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You know, I'M torn, here.

There are all sorts of excellent reasons a 22LR is the prefect first gun,
There are all sorts of excellent reasons a pelleg gun is the prefect first gun,
There are all sorts of execllent reasons a bolt action 22LR is the prefect first gun,
<da, da, da,...>

The thing is, if you think you would like guns, and want to enter the hobby/lifestyle/obsession then basically you pick your desired entry point and start getting into it*. You can make a good start by choosing a gun that costs little to shoot, you can start by choosing a gun you like the styling of, you can start by flipping a coin (and in most cases the actual determination is inconsequential). You will either like shooting and it will becom a passion, or you will blow through it aftre 6-36 mnths, have a good time, meet lots of interesting characters, and feel better off in the long run having done it, even if you don't continue--long term. {that is: low loss high gain scenario.}

(*) with friends who are already into it, or new friends you meet at the shooting ranges. </div></div>
When I posted, I was under the assumption the op had the guns he listed. If not, buy a .22, by all means.

 

[afrancke]

Re: Starting from scratch.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Carter Mayfield</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I do like the fact that the Giraud appears to stay set up. </div></div>

That is appearance only, I'm afraid - unless somebody has figured out how to regulate the gas much better than the standard valve allows for. The difference between not enough, too much and just enough gas (to get the temperature you want in combination with the ramp speed one chooses and burner position one selects through mechanical adjustment) is the slightest hair of a turn of the knob.

It takes me probably 20 - 30 minutes to set it up and recalibrate the temperature/speed to get the right dwell time using Tempilaq on some sacrificial cases I keep around for that purpose each time I use it, which means I am very glad for its large capacity; this thing gets set up to run hundreds of cases at a time to amortize all that setup time, and then cranks away in automated fashion while I do other things.

Naturally, if you change brass make or caliber, recalibration of the whole setup is needed as well (though you are of course a lot closer when just changing headstamps within the same caliber than when you go from, say, .223 Remington to .308 Winchester). Some physical part swapping is also needed between certain case types (again, between .223 and .308, but not between .308 and .30-06).

 

[clmayfield]

Re: Starting from scratch.

Good to know. My setup process for the Vertex takes about 10 minutes. I hook up the gas and adjust it to where the blue cone is right where I need it, then I run a case of "waste" brass to see how it does and set the dwell time based on that. I go mainly on the glow of the brass and a little on the appearance of the case after annealing. I tried that Tempilaq stuff and it was plenty good to make sure that you are not annealing the case head, but sucked at telling me the degree of annealing going on. The high temp stuff would just burn off.

This reminds me... another key thing to have is plenty of range brass to have around to use as guinea pigs so you are not using your good stuff to set up dies, set up the cut depth on the Giraud, set up the annealer, etc.

 

[milo 2.0]

Re: Starting from scratch.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: afrancke</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Carter Mayfield</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I do like the fact that the Giraud appears to stay set up. </div></div>

That is appearance only, I'm afraid - unless somebody has figured out how to regulate the gas much better than the standard valve allows for. The difference between not enough, too much and just enough gas (to get the temperature you want in combination with the ramp speed one chooses and burner position one selects through mechanical adjustment) is the slightest hair of a turn of the knob.

It takes me probably 20 - 30 minutes to set it up and recalibrate the temperature/speed to get the right dwell time using Tempilaq on some sacrificial cases I keep around for that purpose each time I use it, which means I am very glad for its large capacity; this thing gets set up to run hundreds of cases at a time to amortize all that setup time, and then cranks away in automated fashion while I do other things.

Naturally, if you change brass make or caliber, recalibration of the whole setup is needed as well (though you are of course a lot closer when just changing headstamps within the same caliber than when you go from, say, .223 Remington to .308 Winchester). Some physical part swapping is also needed between certain case types (again, between .223 and .308, but not between .308 and .30-06). </div></div>
This guy is spot on, the Giraud is no picnic. I tried to double needle valve mine, guy at propane place said no, so I regulated it, 40lb, needs 55 I think??
It is an adventure every time I fire mine up.

 

[afrancke]

Re: Starting from scratch.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Carter Mayfield</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I tried that Tempilaq stuff and it was plenty good to make sure that you are not annealing the case head, but sucked at telling me the degree of annealing going on. The high temp stuff would just burn off.</div></div>

Are you putting your 750 degree Tempilaq (or whatever you're using for high temp) inside the neck? That's where it should go - I agree on the outside it just gets burned right off, but the inside works fine.

 

[RyanMcIntyre]

Re: Starting from scratch.

Why do you think you need the "best" gear before you've even pulled one lever? I mean, this isn't about "buy once, cry once" but the whole mindset that you feel like you need to have what everybody on some anonymous computer message board tells you what THEY personally want for themselves. I'm not trying to be offensive, but this sounds like you have a horrible inferiority complex and you're making up for it with material possessions that other people envy, which you equate to envy of you. I don't get it, aside from that explanation.

You're a beginner. You're going to make a LOT of mistakes, and you're probably going to break or ruin a thing or two. Was your first car a Ferrari? So why does any of your first reloading gear have to be high end? We're not talking about significant levels of money here, you can start into reloading for less than $500 and eventually upgrade all of it for not a lot more money. True, you can spend over $5000, but is that going to make your ammo any better? The tools don't do the work for you.

Also, why would you take our advice? Would you be willing to wear what I say is the best brand of shoes, date a blonde because I said so, and listen to my "best" kind of music? You're you, be you. Learn to use the tools and explore which ones fit "you" the best. Quit trying to impress us or be us. I bet if you asked around, 100% of the people here have zero interest in the gear I reload with, but they'll all ask to see targets.

To answer your question, I have a hard on for Redding. But as a beginner, I bought a lot of Lee products because they were easy to come by, cheap (which allowed me to buy more bullets and powder, which in turn made better ammo) and I learned a lot of the processes I take for granted now on my fancy-schmancy gear that I bought later. Gear that I would have never considered when I started, that takes the place of my "dream gear" I thought I wanted back then. That's another point: in two years, you'll be a different, more experienced you and you'll probably regret a few expensive purchases that don't fit your current/future needs. I've made that mistake a ton of times, and I'm just trying to save you the same woe.

You can take an old dude's sage wisdom for what it is: warnings trying to help you from making the same mistakes; or ignore it and do what you want. What you do doesn't matter to me, but if I have a chance to improve your learning curve and save you some misery, I'll sure try.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: clark</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The first weapon you should get is a stick.
Work your way up to 22 rimfire single shot rifle.
By the time you are reloading for your centerfire rifle, you will probably have strong inflexible opinions about everything.</div></div>
This is a metaphor for reloading too.

 

[clmayfield]

Re: Starting from scratch.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: afrancke</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Are you putting your 750 degree Tempilaq (or whatever you're using for high temp) inside the neck? That's where it should go - I agree on the outside it just gets burned right off, but the inside works fine.</div></div>

It was the 650 degree (orange stuff). Burned to a crisp on the outside. Put it on the inside, burnt to a crisp. Put it on the shoulder. Burnt to a crisp. All this without even starting to glow. I remember some member here did some experiments on anneal temps using some nice lab thermometers and showed that annealing temps and times are higher than recommended in most sources.

I just started going on the glowing of the brass and the final color of the brass. Obviously, cleaning method and manufacturer are going to cause different brass appearances, but this seems to work for me. I have also over-annealed some brass and used the "plier-method" to see what that looks like. I am safe with my brass. If anything, I might still be under-annealing. According to Tempilaq, I am OK, though.

 

[clmayfield]

Re: Starting from scratch.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RyanMcIntyre</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Why do you think you need the "best" gear before you've even pulled one lever? I mean, this isn't about "buy once, cry once" but the whole mindset that you feel like you need to have what everybody on some anonymous computer message board tells you what THEY personally want for themselves. I'm not trying to be offensive, but this sounds like you have a horrible inferiority complex and you're making up for it with material possessions that other people envy, which you equate to envy of you. I don't get it, aside from that explanation.
</div></div>

I think he is trying to avoid buying something that he will regret later. It is actually a good idea to look at the whole process, think about what you are going to do, build a budget, and then live within that budget.

I avoid making stupid mistakes by reading a lot and taking a lot of advice. It actually troubled my father a great deal the fact that I take a while to make decisions and make great choices. He feels like you only learn from mistakes. Mistakes are just the expensive way to learn. There are other ways.

The reason that I got into reloading was not to save money. Some get into it for that reason. I didn't. From the very beginning, I had a few objectives: 1) minimize runout, 2) minimize SD, 3) achieve good chamber fit, 4) spend as little time reloading as possible 5) spend as little money reloading as possible. For some people, #5 is their #1. For me, cost is low on the list because I have disposable income and I don't buy a lot of guns. Another way to say that is that I buy once.

People in my gun club's eyes bug out when I tell them the price tag on my guns. And yet, these same people will show up with a new toy every month or so. By keeping my gun safe sparse, I keep the level of quality high.

The same thing can go for reloading. Now, it is true that my first big spend was on a nice 22 (thanks, Nesikabay!) this after shooting the hunting rifles I had more times than they should be shot and buying a Marlin 17HMR and shooting it until I had outgrown it. I still have my 22. I still shoot my 22. The same cannot be said of my Marlin 17HMR... Only $300, but a purchase I kind of regret because it just takes up space. And I can't exactly offload it easily, either.

I took the same approach to reloading. There are the things that I considered expensive luxuries, like the annealer and the neck turner. These were process steps that I could leave out at first. But why go cheap on dies, for instance? These are one of the most important pieces of equipment in the reloading room. Or the press?

The one place I skimped on was powdering devices. I started out with the Chargemaster. After using that for a while, I added an Acculab scale with all the trimmings and an RCBS manual trickler. I used to let the Chargemaster trickle up .1 grn short than I would trickle the rest. That got old. I bought a Lee Perfect Powder Measure and would trickle after dumping with that. Then I bought an Omega Trickler. Then I bought a GD-503 because I was so frustrated by the Acculab scale that I wanted to throw it out the window. Finally, I bought a Prometheus.

So the one area I skimped on in my reloading cost me that absolute most of all of my reloading equipment. And much of that is throwaway. True, I can probably unload some things, like my Chargemaster, which is worth the time and effort to sell. I could probably sell my Acculab. And I could probably sell my Omega Trickler. But I would sell all of these things at a pretty decent loss.

Surprisingly, I don't buy reloading equipment to impress people. I have one friend that I know of who reloads and he doesn't know what a Prometheus is. I buy it to achieve good accuracy and to spend as little time in the reloading room as possible.

I think it is difficult to criticize anyone's intentions for buying crap on the board when our final objective, putting lots of holes close together on paper or having steel make a clanging sound, can be achieved with a hole puncher and a hammer, respectively (and much more cheaply, may I add).

We are all freaking nuts. And I am the first to admit that I am OCD about reloading and a lot of the steps I perform probably don't make a measurable difference. But I do know the stuff I make outperforms manufactured match ammo because I have stored the data and I have crunched the numbers. And that is why I do it.

 

[RyanMcIntyre]

Re: Starting from scratch.

Carter, thank you for your explanation. I too, am into reloading for many of the same reasons. And I tend to gravitate towards quality tools to help me achieve that end. However, a real mechanic wouldn't let a handful of Harbor Freight tools keep him from fixing cars, nor would those "inferior" tools keep him from fixing it the best he can.

What I'm saying is, you don't know what tool is the best until you need it. You can't tell a newbie to buy a Promethius when a tool of that level won't help any more than a beam scale or make any more sense until many assembled rounds aren't meeting his expectations and that tool becomes a necessity. I would go so far as to say a tool like that would slow the learning curve. You can't tell the brand new mechanic to buy only Mac or Snap-On tools - it's cost prohibitive and it doesn't get them any better jobs, results, or satisfaction.

And that's really all these high end tools are anyway - personal satisfaction. The ammo does the job, you and I assemble it, so the tools are really just there for us. And anyone feeling like they need to own the "best" tools as voted by an internet forum is only feeding a personal satisfaction reward loop where universally accepted material goods salves their ego's appetite for envy, acceptance, etc. Get the tools you need. Hell, get the tools you want, but be honest with us, it certainly isn't about saving money. I could have 3 Lee presses for what I'll spend on my Reddings. Is that really only "crying once"?

 

[RyanMcIntyre]

Re: Starting from scratch.

I personally feel like all beginners should be steered towards the kits; none of them are particularly expensive for what you get, they come with nearly everything you'll ever need (including manuals), and they all offer enough quality to produce good results immediately and for the long haul. If you outgrow a kit's potential, then I can see the need to ask which gear is best, but it'll probably be better refined, like: "I'm still getting .0000000001" runout after xxx process, how can I fix that?"

Even the world's greatest rifleman would still be a beginning reloader. Your standards for intensely quality ammo might be there, but nothing erases the fact you're still a beginning reloader and should learn the basics and build a foundation first.

 

[clmayfield]

Re: Starting from scratch.

I generally I agree with your sentiment. I would never recommend a Prometheus to a beginner. When you are like me and reloading in great volume on Friday night into the wee hours of the morning only to get to the range with not enough sleep and an aching back on Friday, you start thinking of ways to make the process more efficient.

But I also think that reloading is process-driven. In other words, I decide what process is going to be employed, then I buy the tools if I decide to add that process to the mix... and I start thinking about the equipment I will need to support that process the best. How can I do that task to the maximum effect and save myself the most time?

I really really don't think people buy reloading tools to impress anyone. Guns and scopes, yes. Reloading equipment, no.

I bring up the Prometheus because that is the only reloading tool that I truly coveted for years before buying. You have guys like Boltripper taunting people with pictures of a Prometheus every time a Chargemaster thread comes up. In the end, I am more embarrassed about owning such an expensive piece of reloading kit than anything. In a way, I am embarrassed about turning necks as well because that is a process for the truly anal.

But back to the original point. I don't think people are buying reloading tools to validate their egos. I think they are doing it to try to improve their results. And a lot of time it is futile.

Not that there aren't reloaders talking about how perfect their ammo is. Fisherman lie about the sizes of their fish they throw back. Shooters lie about their groups, and reloaders lie about their concentricity and ES & SD. I remember someone posting a video of them running a 50 BMG round with zero runout. They claimed this was a typical round. My heart sank. Then I thought about it... if it was so typical, why are they taking video of it?

It is the results that they are trying to brag about... and then use that to validate their purchase of XYZ tool. They want to show that they did not overspend. And sure, that drives some reloaders' behavior. I think the OP is after something different.

Now absent from that discussion was his budget and expectations/requirements. For someone who has set aside a lot of money for this, why not buy good equipment?

 

[RyanMcIntyre]

Re: Starting from scratch.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Carter Mayfield</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I generally I agree with your sentiment. I would never recommend a Prometheus to a beginner. When you are like me and reloading in great volume on Friday night into the wee hours of the morning only to get to the range with not enough sleep and an aching back on Friday, you start thinking of ways to make the process more efficient.

But I also think that reloading is process-driven. In other words, I decide what process is going to be employed, then I buy the tools if I decide to add that process to the mix... and I start thinking about the equipment I will need to support that process the best. How can I do that task to the maximum effect and save myself the most time?</div></div>
Agreed. I do that too. But how would you know when a specific and advanced tool will fill your need if you have never exposed yourself to that need in the first place?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I really really don't think people buy reloading tools to impress anyone. Guns and scopes, yes. Reloading equipment, no.</div></div>
I don't discount the possibility of anything. You are right about guns and scopes.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I don't think people are buying reloading tools to validate their egos. I think they are doing it to try to improve their results. And a lot of time it is futile.</div></div>
I was under the impression he had no reloading gear. He has 9 posts currently and said, <span style="font-style: italic">"I want to start reloading and want to buy the tools that most people have success with and like."</span> and <span style="font-style: italic">"I am looking for the best of each... It only makes sense to me to get the best tools first and save yourself the hassle later of upgrading."</span> which is why my advice is to not get caught up in what people think is best, and my personal opinion followed. I can understand not wanting to buy some things twice or ending up with junk, but it sounds to me like he wants to skip those pesky beginner steps and jump right into what you and I are doing; even we didn't get to where we are like that. Aside from my self-esteem guess, he could also have been misled into believing he needs to start with high-level, advanced tools; an incorrect impression that isn't helped by advanced reloaders heaping advanced reloading advice on him.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Shooters lie about their groups, and reloaders lie about their concentricity and ES & SD.</div></div>
Not ALLL the time.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">For someone who has set aside a lot of money for this, why not buy good equipment? </div></div>
Because he's new. New reloaders should set aside a lot of money for components and shooting; just the same as new shooters don't need Sakos with US Optics, your money is better spent on cheap practice. I'm not saying he doesn't DESERVE good equipment, I have nothing against people getting what they want. What I think is overwhelming is the recommendations of all the Girauds, Sinclairs, Neil Jones, etc to someone who hasn't even reloaded basic ammo, let alone advanced ammo for what those tools can do better than others.

Being prepared to spend large amounts of money is great preparation for what lies ahead, reloading is NOT cost effective!! (haha) But avoiding spending $300 now on a Rockchucker kit, for example, is $300 lost on valuable learning. You can always sell that gear off as you upgrade or keep it and have doubles - most of us do anyway. Looking back, even if you wasted every penny on an RCBS kit, is $300 really that significant compared to your investment now? (cripes, that's only double a monthly ammo allowance for me) You'll always have plenty of time to buy the really expensive stuff, and most likely will, but everybody should start somewhere.

This isn't meant to imply that a beginner can't own a Dillon or Redding or whatever, I just think beginning steps should be easy to learn from.