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straight behind rifle

brianf

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Minuteman
Apr 8, 2010
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there are 1000 threads and opinions about position behind rifle when prone.
i dont want to debate that, but i was looking at the KO2M vids last night and i noticed that more than half prob close to 3/4 of the shooters are not straight behind the rifle.
is there a particular reason etc.
they are shooting the heaviest caliber/most recoil..if straight back was the best for recoil control wouldnt the "lack" of straight behind the rifle cause havoc

thanks
 
there are 1000 threads and opinions about position behind rifle when prone.
i dont want to debate that, but i was looking at the KO2M vids last night and i noticed that more than half prob close to 3/4 of the shooters are not straight behind the rifle.
is there a particular reason etc.
they are shooting the heaviest caliber/most recoil..if straight back was the best for recoil control wouldnt the "lack" of straight behind the rifle cause havoc

thanks
they're not so worried about seeing impacts like we are. they can brew a pot of coffee before the bullet hits the target.

but if being slightly angled minimizes any unnecessary influences on the rifle there would be an advantage
 
so straight behind the rifle is not the most accurate....

sorry had to do it

"do as i say not as i do" or "those who cant teach"

keep the info coming
 
so straight behind the rifle is not the most accurate....

sorry had to do it

"do as i say not as i do" or "those who cant teach"

keep the info coming
well if you want 'most accurate' you've gotta look at the benchrest crowd. dont even touch the rifle at all
 
they are shooting the heaviest caliber/most recoil..if straight back was the best for recoil control wouldnt the "lack" of straight behind the rifle cause havoc

No need for recoil control when free recoil is your game.


so straight behind the rifle is not the most accurate....

Nothing to do with that. With f-class recoil where the rifle is allowed to track(slide) on the rear bag with skis up front. Your body position is irrelevant as all your trying to do with your body is to keep the rifle from sliding away. Minimize your interaction before the bullet leaves and accuracy goes up. We are always the weak link.

When you're using a regular bipod and driving the rifle. Straight behind for good recoil management is still the most accurate. No right or wrong here just different tools and technics for different situations.
 
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When shooting prone, I find that strait behind the rifle places the butt of the rifle directly on my collar bone. Not a problem if shooting a light recoil rifle or only shooting a couple dozen rounds. But, if I'm shooting an f/tr match with a 308 (66 rounds in a match) where muzzle breaks are not allowed, I will cant my body about 20 degrees so the butt sits more on the meaty part of my shoulder instead of my collar bone. Doesn't seem to hurt my scores and it's much more comfortable.
 
But, if I'm shooting an f/tr match with a 308 (66 rounds in a match) I will cant my body about 20 degrees so the butt sits more on the meaty part of my shoulder instead of my collar bone.

I find myself doing the same, even when loading the bipod for F-T/R. Also, I'm not spotting my hits since someone else is marking my target.
 
I remember this video from @lowlight ...does not look straight to me. Would it be fair to say that this mantra of "straight behind rifle" becomes secondary to shooter comfort (aka natural point of aim)?
 
they're not so worried about seeing impacts like we are. they can brew a pot of coffee before the bullet hits the target.

but if being slightly angled minimizes any unnecessary influences on the rifle there would be an advantage
Being square behind the rifle has more to do with rifle accuracy than with spotting hits.
 
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I think what you're seeing is a result of camera angle.

Cause it sure looks like when he addresses the rifle (@2:05) that he stands perfectly straight behind the rifle. Then lays straight down behind it. Yet, it looks like he is canted. Which can't be, standing straight behind + laying straight down = straight
 
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The rifle begins recoiling as soon as the projectile begins moving. Any influence you have on the rifle between then and when the bullet leaves the barrel will show up down range.
 
Being square behind the rifle has more to do with rifle accuracy than with spotting hits.

Hi,

But have you seen the top Camp Perry shooters? They are all sorts of curved and kinked in shooting position yet for the equipment/cartridge they are using; they are damn accurate.

Sincerely,
Theis
 
Honestly if you do it consistently from shot to shot you could do “insert crazy yoga position here” and get consistent hits as long as you got someone else to see your shot for any correction. I think the straight behind the rifle is more pertaining to the recoil management of seeing your shot and putting another round on target with the education of the previous one to guide you without needing someone else to tell you what happened.
 
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Honestly if you do it consistently from shot to shot you could do “insert crazy yoga position here” and get consistent hits as long as you got someone else to see your shot for any correction. I think the straight behind the rifle is more pertaining to the recoil management of seeing your shot and putting another round on target with the education of the previous one to guide you without needing someone else to tell you what happened.
Yup.

Not accuracy. But recoil management.

The guns we shoot now. Totally capable of this. We don't need to compromise positions anymore.
 
Hi,

But have you seen the top Camp Perry shooters? They are all sorts of curved and kinked in shooting position yet for the equipment/cartridge they are using; they are damn accurate.

Sincerely,
Theis

Think about it......Almost all the Camp Perry shooters are slung up.

Mechanically you can't get straight behind the rifle when slung and still have proper bone support.

When the shooter is supporting the weight of the rifle with or without a sling, he must blade to get bone directly involved.

When letting a bipod, tripod or any prop support the weight of the rifle, the shooter should always attempt to square up.

2 different techniques that are determined by constraints the situation imposes.


./
 
there are 1000 threads and opinions about position behind rifle when prone.
i dont want to debate that, but i was looking at the KO2M vids last night and i noticed that more than half prob close to 3/4 of the shooters are not straight behind the rifle.
is there a particular reason etc.
they are shooting the heaviest caliber/most recoil..if straight back was the best for recoil control wouldnt the "lack" of straight behind the rifle cause havoc

thanks

Hey brianf, you might consider having them move your post to one of the "marksmanship" subgroups in the SH Advanced Marksmanship Unit section.

You would possibly get more focused replies articulated to make sense for what you are asking. Just a thought.


./
 
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I remember this video from @lowlight ...does not look straight to me. Would it be fair to say that this mantra of "straight behind rifle" becomes secondary to shooter comfort (aka natural point of aim)?


BTW, this is a very old video. Lol! @lowlight is carrying a little more "gunmetal" in his beard these days (as are we all).
 
Straight behind the rifle is ideal but anatomy has a vote.

Think about a small artillery piece with the tow trails spread to receive recoil.......would you want the gun hung off the side say three feet left of center so it sits closer to one trail than the other?
 
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Straight behind the rifle is ideal but anatomy has a vote.

Think about a small artillery piece with the tow trails spread to receive recoil.......would you want the gun hung off the side say three feet left of center so it sits closer to one trail than the other?

That's actually a pretty good analogy.
 
When shooting prone, I find that strait behind the rifle places the butt of the rifle directly on my collar bone. Not a problem if shooting a light recoil rifle or only shooting a couple dozen rounds. But, if I'm shooting an f/tr match with a 308 (66 rounds in a match) where muzzle breaks are not allowed, I will cant my body about 20 degrees so the butt sits more on the meaty part of my shoulder instead of my collar bone. Doesn't seem to hurt my scores and it's much more comfortable.
The but of the rifle needs to be in the pocket of your shoulder not on your collar bone (so that the top of but is not on your collar bone but below it). To make that happen you need to adjust the cheek piece, scope and length of pull as necessary. I know this because when I first tried prone I made the same mistake. Most important thing I learned in the first class I took.
 
The but of the rifle needs to be in the pocket of your shoulder not on your collar bone (so that the top of but is not on your collar bone but below it). To make that happen you need to adjust the cheek piece, scope and length of pull as necessary. I know this because when I first tried prone I made the same mistake. Most important thing I learned in the first class I took.
Who taught this class.
 
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The but of the rifle needs to be in the pocket of your shoulder not on your collar bone (so that the top of but is not on your collar bone but below it). To make that happen you need to adjust the cheek piece, scope and length of pull as necessary. I know this because when I first tried prone I made the same mistake. Most important thing I learned in the first class I took.

Wrong.....
 
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Being square behind the rifle has more to do with rifle accuracy than with spotting hits.

Also wrong.

Benchrest shooters stay off to the side and let the rifle free recoil. Similar with F class shooters.

Straight behind the rifle is all about recoil management and watching.

Your rifle can be accurate with and without proper recoil management (Frank shows this with a rifle on tripod, standing off the side, just touching the trigger and making hits at 1k).

Now, poi/poa issues can arise when moving between free recoil and recoil management.
 
If you don’t have access to a 375/408/50 then take a 12ga with slugs, buckshot, or some heavy turkey or duck loads to the range with you next time. Support the front and take a shot prone canted and then a shot prone straight behind the gun... You’ll get your answer lol.
 
Also wrong.

Benchrest shooters stay off to the side and let the rifle free recoil. Similar with F class shooters.

Straight behind the rifle is all about recoil management and watching.

Your rifle can be accurate with and without proper recoil management (Frank shows this with a rifle on tripod, standing off the side, just touching the trigger and making hits at 1k).

Now, poi/poa issues can arise when moving between free recoil and recoil management.
Further to my other post, if those shooters free recoiling, or setting up to the side of their rifles were to then get straight behind the rifle prone, ie not consistent, would they observe a point of impact shift?
 
Further to my other post, if those shooters free recoiling, or setting up to the side of their rifles were to then get straight behind the rifle probe, ie not consistent, would they observe a point of impact shift?

Possibly. Depends on how much pressure and such was used when they zero’d. What type of rests used, etc etc.

Also depends on what level of precision is acceptable. Sub moa or 2moa plates. PRS shooters would still be on plate. An F class might be out of the X ring.
 
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What I wrote pertained to shooting a tactical type rifle from the prone and in many other positions. Shooting a hunting rifle offhand, no the butt doesn't need to be in your shoulder pocket. Yes you can shoot a tactical rifle (heavy typically) with the butt on your shoulder instead of the shoulder pocket but the recoil management will be compromised and you won't be as consistently accurate. I posted because someone was saying they put the butt of the rifle on their collar bone. Are saying the butt of the stock should be on the collar bone? Nope. I'll stand by what I wrote. Was instructed that way by a former Marine Sniper who trained Marine Snipers, and it makes sense and it has worked.
 
What I wrote pertained to shooting a tactical type rifle from the prone and in many other positions. Shooting a hunting rifle offhand, no the butt doesn't need to be in your shoulder pocket. Yes you can shoot a tactical rifle (heavy typically) with the butt on your shoulder instead of the shoulder pocket but the recoil management will be compromised and you won't be as consistently accurate. I posted because someone was saying they put the butt of the rifle on their collar bone. Are saying the butt of the stock should be on the collar bone? Nope. I'll stand by what I wrote. Was instructed that way by a former Marine Sniper who trained Marine Snipers, and it makes sense and it has worked.

Wrong again. That’s how it used to be taught and isn’t anymore.
 
What I wrote pertained to shooting a tactical type rifle from the prone and in many other positions. Shooting a hunting rifle offhand, no the butt doesn't need to be in your shoulder pocket. Yes you can shoot a tactical rifle (heavy typically) with the butt on your shoulder instead of the shoulder pocket but the recoil management will be compromised and you won't be as consistently accurate. I posted because someone was saying they put the butt of the rifle on their collar bone. Are saying the butt of the stock should be on the collar bone? Nope. I'll stand by what I wrote. Was instructed that way by a former Marine Sniper who trained Marine Snipers, and it makes sense and it has worked.

Your shoulder pocket is away from the center of your body. The closer you get to the center of your mass, the better your recoil management.

Have a buddy stand in front if you. Put your hand in his shoulder pocket and push him. His body will turn.

Now do the same thing with your hand in the center or close to his center. He won’t turn. If anything he will move straight back.

Also, for your modern education updating, notice how the rifle is in Phil’s clavicle?

 
What I wrote pertained to shooting a tactical type rifle from the prone and in many other positions. Shooting a hunting rifle offhand, no the butt doesn't need to be in your shoulder pocket. Yes you can shoot a tactical rifle (heavy typically) with the butt on your shoulder instead of the shoulder pocket but the recoil management will be compromised and you won't be as consistently accurate. I posted because someone was saying they put the butt of the rifle on their collar bone. Are saying the butt of the stock should be on the collar bone? Nope. I'll stand by what I wrote. Was instructed that way by a former Marine Sniper who trained Marine Snipers, and it makes sense and it has worked.

Marine Sniper who taught/teaches Marine Snipers, but not in the 1980’s model:

6A5B59B9-F6A4-49CF-BE71-1AA58ED87E3C.jpeg
 
I dont often get to shoot prone. Mostly just off the bench.

Off the bench best position I can get is shoulder pocket.

When prone I can get the rifle on my collar bone.

I get better groups. I can tell the rifle comes straight back at me.

Usually my prone shooting is only done at classes. I shoot a lot more during the class than my twenty round Saturday/Sunday afternoon range sessions.

I am sore at the end of class and my collar bone usually shows some redness.

The better groups and the control of the rifle are worth it.

Im only firing a .308 so the pain is not such it gets me flinching or anything, its great to feel that control....

Compare this....



With this.....

 
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I dont often get to shoot prone. Mostly just off the bench.

Off the bench best position I can get is shoulder pocket.

When prone I can get the rifle on my collar bone.

I get better groups. I can tell the rifle comes straight back at me.

Usually my prone shooting is only done at classes. I shoot a lot more during the class than my twenty round Saturday/Sunday afternoon range sessions.

I am sore at the end of class and my collar bone usually shows some redness.

The better groups and the control of the rifle are worth it.

Im only firing a .308 so the pain is not such it gets me flinching or anything, its great to feel that control....

Compare this....



With this.....



Are you able to stand behind the bench? That’s the only way I can get into my collar bone properly. Unless I sit directly behind the bench.
 
Are you able to stand behind the bench? That’s the only way I can get into my collar bone properly. Unless I sit directly behind the bench.


That bench vid was from a friends farm just plinking away off his picnic table. The plate was only about 100-125 yards away otherwise some of those shots would likely have been misses or I would have had to slow down to build my position back up and try to stabilize.

Shooting off the constructed benches at my club, nah, there is no way to stand behind them. They tend to be too low and they are the design with a seat either side for lefty or righty shooters. Rightys tend to shoot from the left seat. and Leftys would shoot from the the right.

I think the ideal bench would be "U" shaped with the shooter in the middle so that you can get purchase with both elbows and maybe square up behind the gun. Make them taller so the shooter could rest their gut against the bench and lean forward into the bipod. Basically from the waist up you could be prone.

If I wasnt shooting after work and in rig not conducive to laying on the deck Id be shooting everything prone.
 
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I will watch the video, just looking at the initial pic it looks like the butt is in his shoulder pocket. May be we are talking apples and oranges when it comes to shoulder pocket? When shooting prone I don't see any other way. To put it centered on my body it would be under my neck and in line with my chin if taken literally? Shoulder pocket is as close as it seems one could get, but I'll have to try and see if say putting the butt on the chest muscle more to the center might work. No way I'm shooting long term with any kind of recoil and the butt on my collar bone, at least from the prone. Then again we are all built different. I see some that look like a wobbly ball in the prone balancing on their gut and often see shooters canted way off line from their rifle. I understand the physics, but that ideal doesn't work ergonomically from what I've seen so far. The last class I took was only a few years ago and the instructor is still very active. He did say the body should lined up parallel or closely parallel to the rifle and that does create a challenge having to tilt the head some what to get your check rested on the stock and eye behind the scope. Many people in both the classes I took from him didn't come close to getting parallel to their rifles.
 
lots Of lowlight in this thread

being straight behind the rifle is a key to consistency - because consistency IS accuracy

in a system that mechanically controls the movement of the rifle, like F class and benchrest they are basically free recoiling it letting the system do the work. Flat bottom stocks with rests. In any other shooting, aside from Palma or unsupported, where you are using a sling, you have to be off to the side to get the forearm under the rifle.

now in our type of shooting or even the K02M you should be straight behind the rifle. Recoil management tells the bullet where the barrel is upon release, if you are inconsistent in your fundamentals, ( Why they call it a fundamental) the barrel will be in different positions upon release of the bullet, hence you get less than desirable results.
this is why in the past and even in the present people had different zeros, each shooter was doing something different, now we try to get everyone straight. You can trade rifles and be much closer than ever before.

7495C2DB-8A34-4594-81C5-A22F96F75972.jpeg


we endeavor to create clones in this regard.

recoil follows the path of least resist just like electricity and will exploit any weakness in your position.

left to their own devices, rifles are machines and will do the same thing every time sans outside influence which is us.
its about time, the time it takes to make the decision to break the shot, the time it takes for the brain to communicate the will to press the trigger, the it takes the firing pin to hit the primer, the time it takes to burn the powder and send the bullet down the barrel, and finally the time when the bullet is actually out. Any weakness in your position will be exploited because of time.

small zipper calibers leave quickly and have less Newtonian influence, bigger slower bullets take longer, have more recoil and will exploit your weaknesses to a bigger degree.

we can get away with a lot depending on the circumstances which is why comp guys want super heavy rifles with small bullets moving as fast as possible to minimize the time.

there is a right and wrong here, just because people appear to do well in limited situations doesn’t make getting lucky right. Consistency is right, repeating the same action is right.

that video is super old, it’s a camera angle thing before I got bit more savvy with the angles.

benches should be square with no cutout, we want to eliminate angles whenever possible.
 
Overall those four shooters are all lined up pretty well compared to what I often see, but the two on the right both have their spines canted a bit from the barrel. That is about how I line up at this point but I'm sure there is more to learn. Indeed consistency is key:)
 
They are first day students but it was the closest picture on hand as I am sitting in a hotel room in AK

It was just to show a better angle - they aren’t perfect but they are better than before
 
I will watch the video, just looking at the initial pic it looks like the butt is in his shoulder pocket. May be we are talking apples and oranges when it comes to shoulder pocket? When shooting prone I don't see any other way. To put it centered on my body it would be under my neck and in line with my chin if taken literally? Shoulder pocket is as close as it seems one could get, but I'll have to try and see if say putting the butt on the chest muscle more to the center might work. No way I'm shooting long term with any kind of recoil and the butt on my collar bone, at least from the prone. Then again we are all built different. I see some that look like a wobbly ball in the prone balancing on their gut and often see shooters canted way off line from their rifle. I understand the physics, but that ideal doesn't work ergonomically from what I've seen so far. The last class I took was only a few years ago and the instructor is still very active. He did say the body should lined up parallel or closely parallel to the rifle and that does create a challenge having to tilt the head some what to get your check rested on the stock and eye behind the scope. Many people in both the classes I took from him didn't come close to getting parallel to their rifles.

Your shoulder pocket is way out towards your shoulder.

Here is an illustration. Your clavicle (collar bone) is in blue. Shoulder pocket is in red.

Green area is where you want to me. As close to center as possible.

If you are leaning your head over more than slightly, you’re too far out.

2C9ACEAB-ED4A-4B76-9D18-590C74B8B0DC.jpeg
 
Hold your arm straight out from your shoulder. Bend your elbow back and touch the area just inside your shoulder. This is the pocket.
 
Gotcha, we were on the same page regarding the shoulder pocket. I will have to take a try at using the placement you recommend. That will probably require some adjustments to the rifle to make it work, we will see. Not sure whether that will work for me in the prone, without having the butt up on my collar bone. That is a thicker part of the collar bone though. Would probably work well from a seated position/bench though. Could be something good.

I much prefer prone shooting to bench and have not done PRS at this point.

When the poster mentioned collar bone I envisioned the butt in the pocket and up high, which I don't believe anybody recommends so felt I should weigh in. Thanks.
 
Bringing the rifle in tighter keeps the head straight as you don’t want to roll your head as it pushes the rifle to the side creating a can’t from shot to shot. If your head is rolled your brain doesn’t get to correctly use the 4 levels in your head.

another angle we want to straighten out
 
Thanks Frank. Never liked canting my head, have always tried to minimize that but not as well as I'm hearing can be done. Preferred to cant my alignment relative to barrel a bit to help reduce the need to cant my head. It is a goofy endevor, trying to acheive best results which makes it interesting:)
 
The rifle begins recoiling as soon as the projectile begins moving. Any influence you have on the rifle between then and when the bullet leaves the barrel will show up down range.
But if you're dead still at the break and your pull is good and straight back the rifle moves backwards about 1/10th of an inch before the bullet is gone. So where does anything matter? I don't see it. If the rifle can travel unimpeded straight back for a tenth of an inch you should be good to go.

There's 438 grains in an ounce. My rifle weighs like 18 lbs, which is 126,000 grains. The bullet is 168 grains. So the rifle moves (168/126000)th of the distance the bullet moves. The bullet moves down a 24 inch barrel. When the bullet reaches the muzzle the rifle has moved 0.032 inches!

From a position of dead still at the break, how can you influence the rifle as it moves back .032 inches?! I don't see it. You couldn't if you tried, not if you were dead still at the trigger break.