Advanced Marksmanship Success in Service Rifle Comps?

[IdahoMike]

I am very interested in starting to shoot in service rifle competitions. Other than an accurate and dependable service rifle w/sling, quality ammunition, practice, etc... what else does a fella' need to be competitive/successful? Are there any restrictions of what kind of sling can be used i.e. slip cuff, quick cuff... I can't remember where I found it (an NRA page maybe?), that the service rifles outward appearance must be of current/past issue and there are no restrictions on internals other than the trigger must be 4.5lbs+. Thats why I ask about the sling.

I have tried the google machine but there is sooooo much other crap to wade through.

Thanks,

IM

 

[duaneb]

Re: Success in Service Rifle Comps?

We use either a webb sling or a Turner type leather sling for service rifle. No quick cuff or other slings of any sort for CMP or NRA service rifle. Hope that helps. There are a number of very good manufacturers of quality leather service rifle slings. Best of luck.

 

[kraigWY]

Re: Success in Service Rifle Comps?

First thing you need to do is spend $6.95 and buy the USAMU Service Rifle Guide. It will cover just about everything you need to know about Service Rifle Shooting.

https://estore.odcmp.com/store/catalog/c...note5=&max=

While waiting for you book to arrive, read through the Service Rifle Tips from the AMU (Army Marksmanship Unit).

http://www.odcmp.com/Competitions/USAMU/ShootingTips.htm

And read through the Rules For Service Rifle

http://www.odcmp.com/Competitions/Rulebook.pdf

Also do a search on this forum for every post by SterlingShooter.

 

[tullius]

Re: Success in Service Rifle Comps?

+1 for the AMU Service Rifle Marksmanship Guide.

If you go do the Small Arms Firing School (very highly recommended) @ Perry, you get the training, shoot an EIC match, and they give you the book.

Bonus: if you're Navy, you get additional attention to humorous effect.

 

[kraigWY]

Re: Success in Service Rifle Comps?

Mike, I know Perry is a long way away, you might also check for a closer CMP GSM Clinic. I checked and couldnt find one in Idaho or Oregon. There are some in California but I don't know how far they are from you.

I am a CMP GSM Master Instructor, I'll be passing through Idaho on I84 sometime after the 4th of July, IF you can find enough people to make it worth my while I can stop by on the way back. I'm thinking the Saturday after the 4th. I don't charge for the clinics but I will need to collect a fee for the CMP (about $3.00 per head). I need a range either 100 or 200 yards. If you think you can pull it off, let me know assap so as I can get it Santioned by the CMP.

GSM (Garand, Springfield, (Vintage) Military) Games are normally for vintage military rifles but do include modern military rifles.

PM me if you want to try and pull this off. It will get you started pretty much in the right direction.

 

[9H_Cracka]

Re: Success in Service Rifle Comps?

A read of the NRA rulebook would help as well re: equipment. The CMP book references the NRA book. They have different rules for rapid fire as well.

http://docs.google.com/fileview?id=0B2pD...yMjYy&hl=en

and the updates -

http://www.nrahq.org/compete/rulechanges.asp

Lastly, get signed up on the National Match forum at the usrifleteams.com web site. Plenty of pinned threads there that will help you get going.

You can link to the Rocky Mountain Region state contacts off my page, though I do not have Idaho info. The Montana info may be helpful.

http://web.me.com/ljahearn/Site/Clubs.html

 

[JeffinTX]

Re: Success in Service Rifle Comps?

Most people use the leather pattern 1907 sling. the cotton web sling has its following as well. do not use the nylon web sling as it slips. excellent scores have been shot with either sling.

 

[kraigWY]

Re: Success in Service Rifle Comps?

The NRA Rules are a tad bit differant, more lax, where they conflict, CMP supperseeds.

If you start Service Rifle Competitions you're gonna want to shoot EIC or Leg matches (to work on your Distinguished Rifle Badge).

Thats why I recomended the CMP rules but it wouldn't hurt to study both.

 

[IdahoMike]

Re: Success in Service Rifle Comps?

Thanks for the great info fellas!

Kraig, that would be great but I am not sure if I can find anyone around the Greater Pocatello area who would be interested. I am a little ways out from competing as I do not have a proper rifle. I am trying to grease up the ol' lady to let me spend some mad money once I pull some tips this summer.

 

[9H_Cracka]

Re: Success in Service Rifle Comps?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: kraigWY</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The NRA Rules are a tad bit differant, more lax, where they conflict, CMP supperseeds.

</div></div>

Can you give an example of this Kraig?

Having run 16 NRA matches and 3 CMP matches in the last 3 years, not to mention competing in over 100 matches in that timeframe (all requiring a decent familiarity with the rules), I cannot come up with one example that supports your statement when it comes to the topic at hand, Service Rifle.

 

[kraigWY]

Re: Success in Service Rifle Comps?

Right off hand (I'd have to go through both rule books to find more) I would say "Sighter". In NRA Sighter shots are fired. They are not allowed in CMP Matches (EIC, NT, & other CMP Sanctioned matches) 8.1.4.

Another one is the requirement to Stand before Rapid Fire Matches, The NRA relaxed the rules for seniors allowing them to remain in position (until a shooter who has stand fires the first shot) whereas the CMP requires to stand (8.1.6).

Also if I remember right (it might have changed since I shot for the NG) In team matches the NRA gave you the option of pair firing or single firing in slow fire events, where as the CMP requires Pair firing.(8.1.8)

Like I mentioned, I haven't studies the NRA rules lately, things may have changed, I'm more into CMP games in my old age so I spend more time with the CMP rules.

 

[9H_Cracka]

Re: Success in Service Rifle Comps?

Sighters have nothing to do with the sanctioning body. The match courses are the match courses, and they pre-date the current CMP/NRA structures. Sighters are not an NRA "thing". It should be noted that most certainly the CMP sanction matches that have sighters. Refer to the Garand Course A and Garand Course B in the CMP record book to see this.

Standing versus not - The NRA has presented their position on this as a safety issue, as a carry-over/solution from the days of the senior rule as well as the medical waivers. They did not want people standing and sitting on the same firing line. They did away with the senior and medical rules when adopting the new rapid fire rules. "Lax" is not a term I would use to describe their position on the subject.

Team match firing, string versus pair - again, the courses of fire and matches shot at the national matches pre-date the current CMP and NRA structure. While the CMP has created the Hearst Doubles match post the current structure, I do not see this as some form of "lax" approach to shooting. Rather, the format mirrors the NTT match. It should also be noted that the Whister Boy match is an NRA match and requires pair firing, again making the point that the match is the match, regardless of the current CMP/NRA structure.

 

[damoncali]

Re: Success in Service Rifle Comps?

One thing I found helpful in improving my dreadful standing scores was a Compass Lake .22 rimfire upper. I drew up some extra-reduced targets for the local 25 yard indoor range, and got to practice a lot more. It cost a bit, but anything that gets you shooting is a big plus in my book.

 

[Chris F]

Re: Success in Service Rifle Comps?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The NRA Rules are a tad bit differant, more lax, where they conflict, CMP supperseeds. </div></div>

This is an incorrect statement, (as well as a poorly spelled one). The NRA has diverged on Highpower/Service Rifle rules as noted earlier in the area of standing in Rapid Fire. The NRA has also elected to allow the M110 as a Service Rifle where the CMP has not. The two sets of rules are similar but separate. One does not take precedence over the other whether they conflict or not.

 

[kraigWY]

Re: Success in Service Rifle Comps?

I never said one is better or worse, they are a bit different and the NRA rules are more LAX in some areas then the CMP rules.

In Service Rile Matches, for example, the NRA allows sighters, the CMP doesn't. (NOTE Service Rifles not CMP-GSM matches,where sighers are allow.)

Again, the rules are different in regards to older shooters regarding the starting positions for rapid fire.

As as mentioned the M110 is allowed in NRA whereas they are not in CMP Service Rilfe.

My contention is, if one starts Service Rilfe shooting, he/she will eventually want to work toward their Distinguished Rifle Badge. In that case, where the rules conflict, I believe it better for one to gear his positions, and equipment toward the CMP Rules.

If you are in the catagory where the NRA allows you to start your rapid fire strings without first standing, and you practice that way, you are going to be at a disavantage when you shoot the EIC matches.

The same with rifles, if you practice with, and fire the M110 in Serive rifle, you're going to have to fire a different rifle for the EIC matches.

But back to the OPs orginal question, one cannot go wrong by basing his Service Rifle shooting on the AMUs Service Rifle Guide. Following that guide will prapare for eithet NRA or CMP Service Rifle Matches, including the EIC or Leg Matches.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">5.1.6 PRECEDENCE IN CASE OF CONFLICT;
In the event of conflict, precedence shall first be given to the CMP Competition Rules, then to applicable NRA Rules, then to the appilicable DCM rule interpretations, then to the match program, then to a matche director's bulletin. Conflictiong NRA Rules or statements in a match program or match director's bulletin CANNOT take precedence over CMP Competition Rules.</div></div>

 

[Chris F]

Re: Success in Service Rifle Comps?

kraig,
5.1.6 is a CMP Rule and applies only to CMP sanctioned matches. Under 5.1.6, CMP rules take precedence in CMP Matches only.

In NRA Matches, NRA rules are the only ones followed except as prescribed in NRA Rule 3.1.3 which doesn't come into play because the NRA's definition of a service rifle is broader than the CMP's.

 

[kraigWY]

Re: Success in Service Rifle Comps?

Chris, I agree, what I'm trying to point out, if one wants to get into Service Rifle, I sugest he/she gear their equipment & positions toward the CMP rules.

The example I pointed out regarding standing before rapid fire matches. The NRA allows it, the CMP requires it. Your timing is going to be screwed up if you remain in position during rapid fire, then decide to shoot a EIC Match you are required to stand.

The same for choosing a rifle, if you intend on shooting EIC matches you should pick a Service Rifle that complies with CMP rules.

On the subject of rifles, The NRA does not (unless they changed in the last couple years) require the sling to remain on the rifle during Offhand, whereas the CMP requires the sling to be in the parade position, (attached to the rifle).

I know of no CMP Rules that arn't allowed in NRA Service Rifle Matches.
If one never intends on firing in EIC, President Matches, etc. then it really doesn't matter.

 

[duaneb]

Re: Success in Service Rifle Comps?

I would have to agree that buying the USAMU Service Rifle Guide is a must for someone wanting to begin shooting that type of competition. I would also recommend that if it is possible for you to sign up for and attend the Small Arms Firing School at Camp Perry, which will be held start July 29th this year, you would learn a great deal with some excellent coaches. It runs for 3 days and is a great take for a beginner as well as a veteran to remind them of the simple things they might have forgotten. My advise to you would be to concentrate on your possition, everything revolves around it.

 

[9H_Cracka]

Re: Success in Service Rifle Comps?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: kraigWY</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

The example I pointed out regarding standing before rapid fire matches. The NRA allows it, the CMP requires it. </div></div>

Kraig, when is the last time you shot either an NRA or CMP match?

From where did you come to this understanding?

You might have a local match director that "allows it", in reference to standing, but this is not specifically spelled out in the NRA rules that it is "allowed" or that staying in position is optional. Doing so violates the very premise the NRA made its ruling on.

Here is the actual rapid fire procedure per the rules:

10.1.7 Rapid Fire Loading Procedure - <span style="font-weight: bold">For rapid fire stages, all shooters must start in the shooting
position for the appropriate stage of fire (i.e. sitting or prone) before firing their rapid fire strings.</span>

After the announcement “YOUR SIGHTER PERIOD HAS ENDED” or “FOR YOUR SECOND STRING OF
RAPID FIRE” has been made, and before the targets appear, the rifle must be kept out of the shoulder, and the
ammunition must remain either on the ground or shooting stool. When the targets appear shooters will retrieve
their ammunition, load either 2 or 5 rounds and commence fire. (Note: the rifle need not be in the shoulder before
the bolt is closed.) After firing 2 or 5 rounds, competitors will reload 8 or 5 rounds as appropriate. Reloading before
firing the 2nd or 5th round (hot reload) will result in the shooter receiving a total score of “0" for that entire 10 round
string of fire."

OP, here is a link to each rulebook. I suggest you read both yourself. Feel free to PM me if you still have questions.

https://docs.google.com/fileview?id=0B2p...yMjYy&hl=en

https://www.nrahq.org/compete/rules/rul_hpr_11.pdf

http://www.odcmp.com/Competitions/Rulebook.pdf

 

[kraigWY]

Re: Success in Service Rifle Comps?

I had no intention of getting into a pissing contest regarding NRA & CMP.

My contention is, the OP asked about Service Rifle Shooting. I believe if one is going to be involved in Service Rifle, he/she will eventually will want to work on his/her distinguished badge. If that is the eventual goal then the equipemnt should be chosen per CMP Rules. If not then NRA Match Rifle rifles will work.

That is up to the individual.

I do admit I was off on some of the NRA rules. I stand corrected. (Nobody stands in Rapid Fire). As I said I've move into strickly CMP Games.

 

[Xcount]

Re: Success in Service Rifle Comps?

Mike,
as stated, the first thing you need to do is sign up at NationalMatch.US.

Email me here and I can forward the points of contact for Rexburg, and Boise matches. There are monthly matches at both ranges and other matches not too far from you.

Robert

 

[AK Sgt Maj]

Re: Success in Service Rifle Comps?

The NRA allow's the M-110, because the Army asked them to. The reason is because the Army wanted to use them in the 1000 yard Service Rifle matches, so the NRA allowed them, but the CMP did not, because they do not have 1000 yard matches. This comes from the NRA and CMP high power staff's.

 

[Sterling Shooter]

Re: Success in Service Rifle Comps?

I was showing a beginner how to do it yesterday. It made me think what an undertaking, not for me, but for the beginner. Service Rifle competition is not the easiest sport to get into. My advice to anyone is first learn how to shoot prone with sling using a peep sight .22. After you've mastered then transition.