• Winner! Quick Shot Challenge: Caption This Sniper Fail Meme

    View thread

PRS Talk Suggestions for stages.... not a bitch thread!

1moaoff

Safe space provider? Nope!!!
Supporter
Full Member
Minuteman
  • Nov 16, 2008
    3,761
    7,959
    cincinnati, ohio
    Let's use this as an IDEA thread for stages!!

    As the OP of it if it turns to bitching about leadership of the series, or individual shooters I will request that it be deleted.

    I have no say with PRS leadership but if we have ideas and match directors see things or get ideas I dont think it's a bad thing either.
     
    One thought I have had repeatedly is a 2 time stage.

    Say 20 sec to get into position
    Then shots must be fired in the second time frame.

    The position time could be short or longer than firing time. So depending on targets it will push the shooting or the positioning.

    It could even be used to make someone maintain a position before firing.
     
    If we are simulating hunting or combat how about a NO reshoot unless theres a target malfunction!!!! No reshoot if your gear didnt work or you didnt comprehend the stage.
     
    I really like dynamic stages. Defy the Distance had 2 blind stages with known distances and general target position, but no more. 3 Minutes for each stage, so 6 minutes total. Add's a little hustle and athleticism into the mix running between stages, and really makes you be mentally prepared. I loved it, I really enjoy anything with movement.

    Another one that I enjoyed was matching the blocks. 5 Targets, you had to jump up from prone to a table and flip over blocks until you matched 2 together. Jump back down behind your rifle and fire 2 shots at that target, jump back up to table and match two more blocks, back behind rifle and 2 shots on that target. Really fun stage.
     
    • Like
    Reactions: MOshooter
    If we are simulating hunting or combat how about a NO reshoot unless theres a target malfunction!!!! No reshoot if your gear didnt work or you didnt comprehend the stage.

    I've shot and RO'd a bunch of stages, and I can't think of any time I have seen or given a reshoot for a personal equipment failure or someone not understanding the stage. The closest I can think of is I have restarted shooters because I failed to tell them to remove their chamber flag, and they had a first round malfunction due to it. They got a reshoot (and stopped before even getting a round off) because it was on me as the RO to inform them to remove it.
     
    I've shot and RO'd a bunch of stages, and I can't think of any time I have seen or given a reshoot for a personal equipment failure or someone not understanding the stage. The closest I can think of is I have restarted shooters because I failed to tell them to remove their chamber flag, and they had a first round malfunction due to it. They got a reshoot (and stopped before even getting a round off) because it was on me as the RO to inform them to remove it.
    That I understand.
     
    I saw posts about offhand shooting.
    I'm all for it with a realistic close target size or if it's only 1 target and point on a multi target stage.

    Say you have multiple engagements on distance targets or whatever but then have to pop up and hit a full size IPSC or 24 x 24 at 200 or less .... maybe if the offhand target is like 30x30 even if you clean the first part failure to hit an enormous target you get no points or 1 point.
     
    I have restarted shooters because I failed to tell them to remove their chamber flag, and they had a first round malfunction due to it. They got a reshoot (and stopped before even getting a round off) because it was on me as the RO to inform them to remove it.
    For reals? This is probably the only shooting sport where this happens. In other sports you'll see countless people start with flags in, scope caps closed, no mags on the belt, pistols missing etc.
    It's always on the shooter to make himself ready.
     
    For reals? This is probably the only shooting sport where this happens. In other sports you'll see countless people start with flags in, scope caps closed, no mags on the belt, pistols missing etc.
    It's always on the shooter to make himself ready.

    If the shooter looks down after 'engage' and rips out their chamber flag, then carry on. If I tell them to remove it and they don't (even after a second time), then it's on them. If I completely forget to tell them, then yeah - I will stop them and let them reset. That's just how I run stages, but every RO is different.
     
    I liked multiple targets on the same berm with a small or large targets. Choose the 1.75 moa or the 1 moa targets for different point values. You won’t see that again with the current rules.

    I’d also get rid of the goofy stupid “carnival” stages. I think they have gotten better on that regard here. I’d rather shoot a really small target than having to shoot off a toilet in a boat simulator.
     
    • Like
    Reactions: Birddog6424
    Distance: T1: 1000yds T2: 500yds T3: 600yds T4: 700yds T5: 800yds T6: 900yds
    Postion: Prone
    Gear restrictions: one rear bag and bipod only
    Time: 90 Seconds
    Round count: 10
    Max Points: 10

    From the prone. Shooter will engage the 1000yd target, you must hit to move on. A first round impact will be worth (5) points. A second round impact will be worth (3) points and any third round or subsequent impact is worth (1) point. Upon impacting the 1000yd target, shooter will transition to 500 yard target and engage near to far out to the 900 yard target with remaining rounds for one point per impact. You must hit to move on to subsequent targets.


    The purpose of this stage is to reward shooters with points and extra time for subsequent targets, if they make first round impacts at 1000yds. However it also allows for shooters to still bank points for 2nd, 3rd and 4th round impacts at 1000. Unfortunately the one point per impact rule makes this stage a no go.
     
    Last edited:
    • Like
    Reactions: lash
    It's only a ten point stage max. Five, three or one for hits at 1k and one point per impact on the subsequent close targets. Sorry I didn't clarify.

    A clean stage would look like:

    1st round impact at 1k = 5 points
    1st round impacts on targets 2-5 = 1 point each for a total of 5 points.

    Overall score of 10 points
     
    • Like
    Reactions: PowerstrokeOBX
    Gear restrictions in Open division makes zero sense to me. Every shooting sport out there with an Open division uses that as their "anything goes" division.

    We were talking about STAGES...not entire matches or divisions. I have no problem with the bag usage in open class, would personally like to see limits in tactical or production but would not sit out because of unlimited restrictions.

    You are right, there are plenty of people who can do well even without bags...never said without bags they are shit. However, if you think there wouldnt be people having meltdowns over having a gear restriction for a positional stage then I dont where you have been shooting.

    You also said the trend is going back to minimalist...so what is wrong with a single stage showing newer shooters and even some advanced shooters that maybe sometimes LESS is better or just as good. I cant tell you how many new shooters or people watching a match have told me they will never be good or cant do a match because they dont have the money to buy all the shit needed beyond a gun. I can talk to them until I'm blue in the face but when all they see is top guys using 1 to 3 $100-$160 bags my words mean jack shit. So you also lose new shooters who dont think they cant afford to keep up.

    Again...not sure what trigger you, I have nothing against bag usage. Simply talking a single stage to show what can be done without all the crap.
     
    but when all they see is top guys using 1 to 3 $100-$160 bags my words mean jack shit. So you also lose new shooters who dont think they cant afford to keep up.
    Not to sound like I'm saying 'go be poor somewhere else', but if $400 worth of bags is what these guys perceive as keeping them from the top, they'll never be able to stomach the ammo bill and time commitment needed to get there.
    $400 in bags is a drop in the bucket if you want to exceed in a shooting sport.
     
    Not to sound like I'm saying 'go be poor somewhere else', but if $400 worth of bags is what these guys perceive as keeping them from the top, they'll never be able to stomach the ammo bill and time commitment needed to get there.
    $400 in bags is a drop in the bucket if you want to exceed in a shooting sport.

    Not in disagreement but I remember a time when I bought a $600 scope and lied to myself I'd never need anything better. Today, I know different and dropping $2k on a scope is "cheap" knowing what I'm getting and the advantages that come with it. Had I needed to spend $2k+ right off the bat I'd probably have picked another hobby/sport. I'm just coming in at an angle to get more people involved to work up to it. Personally I think some type of limit in production would be a perfect place for this...but thats outside this thread topic. Was a stage idea that had other purpose behind thinking it would screw new shooters, make any stage more difficult for a "pro" and it will be more difficult for a novice/beginner..theres no way around that.
     
    • Like
    Reactions: TonyTheTiger
    Lately we have been playing around with a drone pulling a target (balloon). Movers are tough and this way it’s never truly the same. Each pass the drone is a slightly different height at a slightly different angle and speed. The drone pulls a balloon on a ten foot string.
     
    • Haha
    Reactions: Rob01
    Truly blind stages would be cool
    The 2018 Gunwerks match had a fun blind stage inside a van. Shooters were told that there were IPSCs at 3 ranges ordered left to right and that the first IPSC was along the edge of a hill between the shooter and target. The hill between shooter and target prevented you from seeing any of the 3 targets from the staging area though, and the van's windows were spray painted black to prevent you from seeing what was inside.

    Turned out inside the van all they had was a crate that was about 2.5 feet square and the driver's seat, it was completely empty otherwise and the crate was staged by placing it behind the driver's seat. The ideal way to shoot the stage (without a tripod) was actually to roll/slide the crate to the back of the van and then just shoot from the top of it. If you left the crate back there you couldn't see the third target on the far right because the side of the van would block your view, and if you didn't bring the crate to the back of the van you'd be too low with just a bipod to see the first target over the edge of the hill.

    Even if you brought the crate towards the back of the van you had to be careful about where you placed it. I did not bring the crate far enough to the back of the van and ended up accidentally putting an extra hole in the rear of the van because my rifle was canted and made it look like I had a clear shot at the 3rd target. The ROs told me I was the 3rd person to have done that because of a slightly canted rifle making the shot look clear.

    20180728_141917.jpg

    That said most people just brought their tripod into the van with them and shot from that. The trick was that at the Gunwerks match you had to deploy the tripod on the clock and start with it detached and fully collapsed, so that made for quite the time crunch doing it all inside a van.
     
    • Like
    Reactions: lash and 1moaoff
    Doesn't target anyone. You have a stage and a time limit and if you plan to play with a tripod then you have to deal with the time given. You should practice with a tripod if you plan to use one and practice getting it in service from the collapsed unattached position.
     
    I disagree Rob. I think everyone is pretty well aware of the fact that more experienced shooters have practiced to the point where they have less reliance on gear.

    Less experienced shooters tend to use more of it. So if you start to make using gear more difficult, who does that effect the most?

    Regardless of whether you practice deploying your tripod on the clock or not, it's still going to eat more time than the guy who uses a rear bag or nothing at all. So now you just made the stage more difficult for less experienced shooters while effecting the top 20% of the field not at all.


    That is called a lesson. They can learn from it or not. It's not making it harder on new shooters but keeping it fair for everyone. You did not make it more difficult for newer shooters. You made it what it is and if someone can't use all the cool gear they want then they learned to work with less or practice more.

    Giving more time for someone using a tripod or where one might be used is just a plain stupid idea. The sport is about getting a stage, working the best plan and using it to make the most hits you can. You want to use a tripod then learn to use it or make less hits.
     
    You have 90 seconds to shoot a stage. It's up to you to figure how to do it. The end. Anything slanted to make new guys feel better or anyone using some gamer gear is plain bullshit. Plain and simple. Like it or not that is my feelings on the subject. No one comes into the game doing great and knowing everything. They learn lessons on how to do it better the next time.
     
    It's not about making new guys feel better. But it's also not about imposing your ego on the guys learning the game.

    Like or not not, if you want to grow a sport, or get shooters to come to your match, you have to show them a good time. No one is paying their bills from all the money they make shooting PRS. We do this for fun. It's hard to have fun when you're getting your ass kicked. And if you are saying screw it, figure this shit out to all the new shooters because us experienced guys aren't going to help you, you aren't doing the sport any favors.

    It's not about favoring new shooters. It's about a level playing field for everyone. A challenging course of fire where everyone has a fair chance to get their hits. Making the bipod a deploy on the clock rule only effects people who use bipods. You just eliminated the level playing field.

    If you cant see the common sense in the fact that only penalizing certain equipment only effects certain shooters, then just go ahead and hang in to your opinion.

    Edit; And I just caught the fact that you call the bipod "gamer gear". Which I have to tell you, very strongly leads me to believe you're one of those guys who looks down their noses at bipods, big pillows, or anything else a lot of new shooters use to help them while they learn the game.

    It's not gamer gear. It's just another tool in the bag that guys like you think they are too cool and too pro to use.

    First I called the tripod gamer gear. I don't look down my nose at it but I also don't feel there should be some special treatment for using them for ANYONE. I use a large bag when needed and a game changer. I have adapted and leanred when to use some gear and when not to us it. I call them gamer gear even though I use them so don't try and slant the talk any by trying use that against me.

    And save the "grow the sport" BS. That has been the battle cry for years whenever people want something in this sport. Reminds me of the dems and their "if it only saves one child". This sport is growing and has been growing and will continue to grow.

    If you go to a match and shoot you should be having a good time. If you shoot bad then you have a choice. Learn, practice and get better next time or learn that the sport isn't for you and you don't don't want to put in the effort to learn it. Most do the first. Again no one walks into this sport winning. You work hard and learn lessons from your placements and the stages you shoot. No one is penalized for using equipment they choose to use. Also your assumption that every new guy is coming to a match with a tripod is way off. Some do but most I see don't.

    There is a level playing field. You got 90 seconds and these are your targets. Level as it should be. So yeah i will take my opinion of shooting the sport for 16 years and hang with it.
     
    First it's tripod. Not bipod. And not my rule but the rule of the matches. They want to allow it to be open and on then that's on them but crying that it has to be deployed on the clock is something to complain to the MD about. If it has to be deployed on the clock then it does. Not slanted against new shooters but someone wanting to use a tripod. Nothing to do with new shooters. And actually all gear has to be deployed on the clock. You can't set up your bags on the obstacles. You deploy everything you carry to the stage. SImple rule.

    And yup I will keep my opinion. It's grown from many years in the sport.
     
    Oh and I don't have an "old school shooter mentality". As I mentioned I use the new gear. I just know what is fair and what isn't. Maybe you can give everyone a trophy at your matches. THat will make all the new shooters happy and make them come back. Lol
     
    "There is a level playing field. You got 90 seconds and these are your targets. Level as it should be"

    If this were true, then what difference would it make if the bipod were open or closed?

    Seeing as you edited I will answer. I have no problem with Bipod being open or closed. I run Harris and they open fast. They are also always mounted to the rifle. Tripods are the topic at hand.
     
    Actually not according to me. According to MD. But I do agree. My opinion. You have yours so run your matches the way you want.

    And again that the tripod is more relied upon by new shooters is some narrative you are trying to push as that is not what I have seen. New shooters rarely have them. It's usually the guys trying to get the most from the stage. New shooters still are figuring out what to do in the stage and not deploying tripods.
     
    How on earth can you think that deploying the bipod on the clock, while no other gear has any restrictions, a level playing field? There's nothing level about it. Everyone else gets to step up get into position and shoot. But a bipod user is not allowed to approach the stage with their equipment ready to go? Do you realize how stupid that sounds?

    No other gear is allowed to be pre-staged either. You can't place your bag on top of the barricade before the stage starts, and you can't have your rifle in position. All gear is deployed on the clock, it's just that tripods happen to take longer to deploy than other simple pieces of equipment.

    And again that the tripod is more relied upon by new shooters is some narrative you are trying to push as that is not what I have seen. New shooters rarely have them.

    This is the truth. Tripods are expensive, usually $1,000+ when you factor in the cost of a good ball head, and shooters don't go out and buy one immediately when they already just dropped the cash on a nice rifle and scope. They generally wait until they have shot several matches and they see the advantages that a tripod can provide.
     
    And having an open tripod is no more pre-staging your equipment than having your bipod down.

    It's not in position on the stage any more than the bag on top of the barricade used in your analogy. It's in the exact same position all your other gear is per the usual stage description, "all gear in hand".
    The explanation given for the tripods in an undeployed position at the start of a stage was to simulate a real-world scenario.

    Nobody carries their tripod around with the legs extended and locked out into position. Regardless of if you're hunting or if you're in a combat environment, you just don't do it. On the other hand, there are people who do carry their rifles with the bipod legs already set in position. It doesn't interfere with a rifle sling, and since I personally don't have a sling I find it substantially easier to pack my rifle with the legs extended on my Atlas bipod than them flush with the rifle (the legs rest on my shoulder, the butt stock in my hand).

    Bipod deployment also takes less than 5 seconds to complete, while tripod deployment will take substantially longer. The MD could easily say that you have to deploy your bipod on the clock, but that doesn't fundamentally affect the match in any way because bipods are a 5 second or less deployment. They only specified tripods because only tripods make a fundamental difference in how the stage will play out, the bipod deployment literally doesn't matter at all because it's so quick.

    Understand, by newer shooter I dont mean the guys at their first match. I mean the guys who have been at it a year or two, maybe even longer, and are still improving. That's 70% of the field of any given match.

    By that definition you're including some of the top shooters even as "newer shooters", because not all of the top shooters have even been competing in PRS for more than a year or two and everybody in the series is still improving. It means nothing with that definition really, because it's broad enough to include shooters of all skill levels.

    The large majority of them aren't spending $1000 on tripods. They are buying Leofoto and other decent less expensive options. Or they are buying aluminum off Ebay or used carbon. But make no mistake, nearly every shooter in the squad either owns a bipod or can borrow one.

    A Leofoto tripod will run you $650. A good ball head will cost you $200. A good dovetail clamp will be an extra $75. Add in any extras like tripod feet or a hog saddle (if you don't have a dovetail rail on your rifle) and you're still easily over $1,000 for the tripod setup. In two years of shooting matches, including several national matches, I have only seen 4 aluminum tripods brought to PRS matches in total while having similarly seen dozens and dozens of carbon fiber tripods.

    As far as borrowing tripods go, that's certainly possible but the people who borrow a tripod at the match aren't the same people who rely on tripods for their stage strategy. They remain unaffected by this rule because they're already used to practicing with no tripod. The only people affected are those who rely on a tripod to effectively engage their targets.

    It should be noted I have nothing against the use of tripods, but I do agree with the assessment of many that it's a bit of a "gamer device" to add stability without having to practice. I also believe it's entirely reasonable for a match director to design stages with a reasonable scenario in mind, and no reasonable scenario includes someone carrying around a fully extended and deployed tripod instead of a collapsed and folded one. Shooters should be tested in their ability to shoot both with and without tripods, because it's a useful skill but not one that should be used as a crutch.

    I'll just leave you with the following question, since you believe tripod deployment on the clock provides some shooters with an unfair disadvantage:

    Do you similarly believe that stages requiring the use of a tripod (such as at matches sponsored by RRS, where one stage requires you to use their stage tripod) provides some shooters with an unfair disadvantage? It would be logically consistent for you to believe this, since not all shooters have the opportunity to practice regularly with a tripod in the same way that tripod shooters might not practice regularly at either deploying quickly or not using their tripods.
     
    • Like
    Reactions: Rob01
    I feel like this thread got thrown so far into the weeds from where it started that it needs renamed “bitch thread”

    Now that I got my .02¢ out of the way I think a fun match idea is when you call everyone up to do your match brief/shooters meeting that’s when you inform them that whatever is currently physically attached to their gun is all they get to run. No bags no tripods none of the “extra” gear and generous targets(mostly?) would be a fun match. Now the guy that showed up with a gun and a bipod is competing the same way as the guy with the custom gun and all the extra attachments. If the guy runs a rail system or whatever then so be it. The new shooter can afford that one piece going forward and be just as leveled out as everyone else. I think it would really play into the field match/hunting/real world scenario where ppl aren’t carrying bags and bipods and packs and dope cards and blah blah blah. Would be interesting to say the least
     
    • Like
    Reactions: Pvt.Donut
    Haha, 5 seconds to set down your rifle, extend and lock three legs? Not a chance.
    I said 5 seconds for a BIPOD which is very different from a TRIpod, something you seem to be confusing.

    The reason they allow bipod deployment off the clock is because bipod deployment on the clock makes no difference. Harris bipods are deployed in 1 second or less. Atlas bipods are deployed in 5 seconds or less (if you're slow, 3 seconds or less otherwise). Tripod deployment has different rules at those matches because it takes a long enough time to matter - more than 5 seconds.

    Name one PRS shooter who doesnt know how to shoot off a tripod. The last match I went to where we had a sponsored tripod stage was the Quiet Riot in Utah. Pretty sure just everyone crushed that stage.

    Everyone knows how to shoot off a tripod.
    Everyone knows the general idea of how to shoot off a tripod. Everyone also knows the general idea of how to shoot without a tripod.

    Whether you can do either of those things well is a question of how much you practice shooting with and without a tripod. Shooters who practice one more than the other will be better at one than the other.

    And your tripod estimates are way too high. For people on a budget, Leofoto, Feisol, Slik, and Manfrotto, can all bring in a decent total package for $300 to $500.
    Leofoto tripod - https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1340216-REG/leofoto_ln_404c_40mm_carbon_fiber.html
    $650

    Leofoto ballhead and dovetail clamp - https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1375174-REG/leofoto_lh_55_low_profile_ball_head.html
    $250

    $900 for a Leofoto tripod setup right there, with no accessories beyond a tripod and a ballhead.

    Pig saddle (cheaper steel hog saddle for guns without dovetail rails) - https://www.bisontactical.com/shop/pig-saddle/
    $135

    $1,035 for a Leofoto tripod setup with a pig saddle if your rifle doesn't have a dovetail rail.

    But honestly, this isnt getting anywhere. We can toss out nonsensical scenarios all day long. But bottom line, no other piece of equipment is being singled out in this manner.
    The only nonsensical scenarios being tossed out here are by you. You claim that people who practice with a tripod are disadvantaged when tripods are deployed on the clock, but you also claim people who practice without tripods have no disadvantage on stages where tripods are required.

    Tripods aren't singled out - it's a realistic deployment scenario for all equipment. That means shooting bags must be carried, not staged. Rifles must be carried, not staged. Tripods must be carried in a configuration that some sane person would actually carry it in, not staged or with the legs already deployed.

    It simply balances the field out so that people who can't afford tripods aren't left in the dust. Tripods undoubtedly can provide a more stable position than shooting bags in many scenarios. Deployment on the clock for tripods means that you can have an easily stable position, but you'll have ~10-15 seconds less of time to shoot the stage. Avoiding the tripod means that you have additional time to line up your shots, but it will be more difficult to build an equally stable position.

    And yes, tripod deployment does only take 10-15 seconds. I would know, because I used a tripod in one stage at the match. I'm not somebody who practices with a tripod and it still only took me 2 seconds per leg to extend the legs (6 seconds to that point), another 2-3 seconds to spread the legs (9 seconds to that point), and a final 3-5 seconds to slap my rifle down on top of the clamp and flip the locking lever (12-14 seconds total overall). From that point forwards the actions required to complete the stage (get behind the gun and shoot) are no different than if I had not used a tripod at all.
     
    • Like
    Reactions: Rob01
    For reals? This is probably the only shooting sport where this happens. In other sports you'll see countless people start with flags in, scope caps closed, no mags on the belt, pistols missing etc.
    It's always on the shooter to make himself ready.
    About 1/2 the states I shoot, I start with the scope caps closed, mag in my pocket, bipod deployed or not incorrectly, or some combination of (and not limited to) the above. I'd like to say it is on purpose, to add a bit of pressure, but I'm just forgetful. Some of the best stages I've ever shot started with some combination of shooter not ready and/or equipment malf (mags not feeding).
     
    • Haha
    Reactions: TonyTheTiger
    One of my new favorite stages we shoot is a modified chaos stage. Targets are shot 1 2 3 2 1 2 3 and you must hit to move on. Any remaining rounds out of the 10 you start with count as a point. So a clean run of 7 plus the 3 left in the mag would get you a 10. If you have to reshoot 2 targets then you'd end up with 8. We usually do 1min time limit.