Supply Chain/Inflation & Ammo

[BytorJr]

So, I'm sure we're all happy ammo prices are finally dropping for more common stuff like 9mm, 45ACP, and 308; yet 223/5.56, 6.5CM, 30-06 are dropping much slower. Even 380 ACP has fallen; but not that much except for Aluminum.

I've bought some ammo since COVID when I got it for a "decent" covid price. Like 43c for 223, 35-38c for 9mm. Now 9mm is at 29 cents for aluminum (which is about 10 cents less than 4 months ago). So we're heading in the right direction.

However, I'm now beginning to wonder if this new pricing is what we're going to see from here out. 450 bucks for 1000 rounds of 223, 400 for cheap 380, 300 for cheap 9mm. Double whammy me thinks. The COVID run, and the fact the supply chain has struggled lack of critical components. This inflation running rampant across board, not just in ammo is causing me to wonder if this is nearing the new "normal low." And, if not the new normal low, how low do we think it's going to go? Keeping in mind these EO's Xiden keeps throwing out.

Now, I realize this question cannot be answered; because I guess if we all knew that we'd be uber rich because we could predict just how far to short stocks.

 

[deersniper]

Ammo manufacturing is like fertilizer. Only a couple make it and they are putting the screws to users

 

[MK20]

I think it will sit here for a bit and then go down next year or thereabouts to about 20 cpr for 9mm and that will be our new low. 16 cpr was our old low. That's still a 25% increase.

 

[Hobo Hilton]

We have a couple of threads (discussions) going here on SH... Inflation, shortages, etc....
The "Snake Oil" Salesmen will preach that we will be back to pre-pandimic levels by the end of 2022.
The Patriots are stocking up for the long haul.
I see the USD losing much of it's purchasing power.
We are witnessing a battle between righteous and evil.
Chose your path carefully.

Isaiah 5:20​

 

[BytorJr]

We have a couple of threads (discussions) going here on SH... Inflation, shortages, etc....
The "Snake Oil" Salesmen will preach that we will be back to pre-pandimic levels by the end of 2022.
The Patriots are stocking up for the long haul.
I see the USD losing much of it's purchasing power.
We are witnessing a battle between righteous and evil.
Chose your path carefully.

Isaiah 5:20​

When the run started, I honestly didn't think it would end up this bad. Had I well, I'd be AJ Jr. I think I'd predicted at the end of 2020 that we wouldn't get back to normal before the end of 2022. I'm going to have to revise that and say 2024 at the earliest and if ever. We'll never see that low of price again. Once inflation hits, rarely do prices go back down.

That said, I see it going down some, but not at a fast rate to be sure. I can see maybe another 15% for 9mm and 10% for 223/5.56. I think we've seen the biggest dip, and now it'll trickle down. Perhaps some rifle rounds will get cheaper (they're high as a kite now) like '06, 270, 7mm RM, and the like; but I doubt seriously we'll see $1.00 a round prices again for any quality "match" ammo.

 

[Ravenworks]

So what's going to happen when all the Russian products dry up once the import licenses are finished?
It's going to get worse.

 

[HarryBC]

Ammo pricing stabilization may never occur, forces like inflation, component sourcing, interest rate growth, even de-banking are all factors which will influence prices of ammo going forward. Buckle your seat belts if a shooting war breaks out anywhere in the world, the civilian market for ammunition and reloading components is the last place available inventory will go……..

 

[Hobo Hilton]

When the run started, I honestly didn't think it would end up this bad. Had I well, I'd be AJ Jr. I think I'd predicted at the end of 2020 that we wouldn't get back to normal before the end of 2022. I'm going to have to revise that and say 2024 at the earliest and if ever. We'll never see that low of price again. Once inflation hits, rarely do prices go back down.

That said, I see it going down some, but not at a fast rate to be sure. I can see maybe another 15% for 9mm and 10% for 223/5.56. I think we've seen the biggest dip, and now it'll trickle down. Perhaps some rifle rounds will get cheaper (they're high as a kite now) like '06, 270, 7mm RM, and the like; but I doubt seriously we'll see $1.00 a round prices again for any quality "match" ammo.

I don't know how many more "Warning Sign's" American's need to see before they prepare for difficult times. The "Law's of Nature" have never been proven wrong.

 

[308pirate]

 

[Hobo Hilton]

So what's going to happen when all the Russian products dry up once the import licenses are finished?
It's going to get worse.

Perhaps we all need to take stock of any of the Russian commodities we consume and take time to stock up. The same can be said for any other imported commodities. The options are to figure out how to live without imported goods. Food for thought.

 

[Hobo Hilton]

Ammo pricing stabilization may never occur, forces like inflation, component sourcing, interest rate growth, even de-banking are all factors which will influence prices of ammo going forward. Buckle your seat belts if a shooting war breaks out anywhere in the world, the civilian market for ammunition and reloading components is the last place available inventory will go……..

We often joke about stocking up on brass and lead.... For those with some curiosity, bring up some historic stock / commodity charts and look at the demand for the "metals".... Follow the bread crumbs.

Copper Real-Time Quote | Real-Time Quote Copper | Markets Insider

Live Copper price in USD: On this site you get the real-time price of Copper in US-Dollar.

markets.businessinsider.com

 

[KZP]

So what's going to happen when all the Russian products dry up once the import licenses are finished?
It's going to get worse.

Palmetto state armory is supposedly starting up steel ammo manufacturing, 2023 is the start date I could find.

PSA Tooling Up For Domestic Steel-Cased Ammo Production

Just in time for the Russian ammo ban Palmetto State Armory has announced that they plan to be producing steel-cased Soviet calibers by 2023.

gundigest.com

 

[Deleted member 181377]

When the Republicans take the House & Senate this year and certainly by the time one takes the Presidency in 2024 prices will settle back down to at best 7% more than early 2020 prices. A lot of calibers are going to disappear and the raw materials that would have gone to produce them will be allocated for production of a less wide spectrum... it'll feel like there is a glut of .223/5.56, .308, 6.5, etc and a lot of other things will start to look more like .219 zipper, .225, .244, 25-35, and the like.

 

[White Death]

At some point inflation will go back down. At some point raw material availability will improve. At some point demand will decrease. If that happens and we have a Republican president who won't pass gun control, I think prices could still improve dramatically.
That being said, if the dems keep the house, Senate and presidency, we're only 1 bad mass shooting away from a shit storm that will make the last 2 years look genuinely rosy.

 

[Hobo Hilton]

Palmetto state armory is supposedly starting up steel ammo manufacturing, 2023 is the start date I could find.

PSA Tooling Up For Domestic Steel-Cased Ammo Production

Just in time for the Russian ammo ban Palmetto State Armory has announced that they plan to be producing steel-cased Soviet calibers by 2023.

gundigest.com

I wish them success....

JJE Capital Holdings - A Private Equity Firm Reviving the American Dream

JJE CAPITAL HOLDINGS Reviving the American Dream. We are a private equity firm transforming mere entrepreneurial dreams into reality.

jjech.com

 

[BAMAboy18]

Perhaps we all need to take stock of any of the Russian commodities we consume and take time to stock up. The same can be said for any other imported commodities. The options are to figure out how to live without imported goods. Food for thought.

In the last 2 months I've been buying 500rnd boxes of Tula; 3- 7.62x39, 2-9mm & just got a box of 223 (I don't even have a 223) I'll continue picking them up as long as it lasts.
I remember having 10,000 rounds of 7.62x51 stacked up when they could be had for $125 a case. When they got to the $350 range I started bartering with it. The good ole days...

 

[JB.IC]

I suspect since some people have mention inflation that they also understand other business dynamics like price rigidity. Basically companies will maintain higher prices regardless if material cost or even demand falls.

Don’t think for one second these companies are on your side. They’ll choose profits over you and they’re happy that you haven’t a clue about business practices.

And for the ones that say once the republicans get in office and things will change. Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe they’ll just lay off workers and maintain higher prices so that supply levels are manipulated to justify so.

Anyone who has a business degree or understands macroeconomics knows exactly what I’m talking about.

 

[BytorJr]

I suspect since some people have mention inflation that they also understand other business dynamics like price rigidity. Basically companies will maintain higher prices regardless if material cost or even demand falls.

Don’t think for one second these companies are on your side. They’ll choose profits over you and they’re happy that you haven’t a clue about business practices.

And for the ones that say once the republicans get in office and things will change. Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe they’ll just lay off workers and maintain higher prices so that supply levels are manipulated to justify so.

Anyone who has a business degree or understands macroeconomics knows exactly what I’m talking about.

I'll go so far as to say they could easily catch up now as I think the "panic" buying has ceased. I could be wrong. But it sure seems to me that the supply isn't, as a whole, coming back. At this point, I think it may be intentional and it would not shock me one bit to find the manufacturers having plants in the USA are colluding to keep prices high. That said, I would assume some lines are open 24/7 like 9,45,40 and 223/5.56, 308 whilst others have perhaps weekly or monthly runs (like 30-30, 270 Win, etc) which could explain why some prices have fallen and other have not.

I figured when this started it'd be 2 years or through 2022; but now I think 2024 at best (if ever). I will kick myself forever for not just dumping money in Mar/Apr 2020 when I saw it starting. At some point, storage is an issue for I don't want to stuff the garage that gets super hot in summer.

Take things like 6.5CM match - still $2 to $3 a round. Primers are at least coming back, not a great selection; but can score even at inflated rates.

I doubt seriously the prices will go down much further than they are (for 9mm at least). Say for 9mm brass, I'd say we're looking at 25 cents per round for a very long time, if not permanently.

So yes, you're correct profits are huge right now and they're not going to give that up anytime soon.

 

[308pirate]

I wonder how many offering opinions here actually have experience in running ammo manufacturing operations.

I don't which is why you never hear me say "they should be able to do x right now"

 

[JB.IC]

I'll go so far as to say they could easily catch up now as I think the "panic" buying has ceased. I could be wrong. But it sure seems to me that the supply isn't, as a whole, coming back. At this point, I think it may be intentional and it would not shock me one bit to find the manufacturers having plants in the USA are colluding to keep prices high. That said, I would assume some lines are open 24/7 like 9,45,40 and 223/5.56, 308 whilst others have perhaps weekly or monthly runs (like 30-30, 270 Win, etc) which could explain why some prices have fallen and other have not.

I figured when this started it'd be 2 years or through 2022; but now I think 2024 at best (if ever). I will kick myself forever for not just dumping money in Mar/Apr 2020 when I saw it starting. At some point, storage is an issue for I don't want to stuff the garage that gets super hot in summer.

Take things like 6.5CM match - still $2 to $3 a round. Primers are at least coming back, not a great selection; but can score even at inflated rates.

I doubt seriously the prices will go down much further than they are (for 9mm at least). Say for 9mm brass, I'd say we're looking at 25 cents per round for a very long time, if not permanently.

So yes, you're correct profits are huge right now and they're not going to give that up anytime soon.

Manipulating supply levels in various ways is a common business practice. There’s no collusion needed in that theory. They have analysts running numbers and optimization of inputs and outputs. They will balance labor demand and consumer demand to create a price level that is profitable for them.

As long as consumers continue to buy at a price level they will continue to sell and if they have latitude to increase the price they will do so. All businesses are thinking like this and they all consider what the competition is doing. They’re all strategizing from the same playbook so they all tend to do the same thing and that appears to be collusion but I doubt anyone is colluding. They’re filling their pockets all the same. That’s what businesses naturally do so I do not fault them. I expect and want businesses to make profitable decision.

It’s important to understand these macro and even micro economic so one can understand why businesses do certain things. It’s good for understanding the big picture.

What’s interesting outside of this is how some businesses will destroy their inventory to justify higher prices. Isn’t that something. People paying $30k over MSRP for a new car for instance. I’m not sure I’ll fault a business for taking advantage of something like that. Even though that seems pretty messed up.

 

[brianf]

I wonder how many offering opinions here actually have experience in running ammo manufacturing operations.

I don't which is why you never hear me say "they should be able to do x right now"

exactly

what if ammo companies have to commit to 12 month blanket orders:

maximum price movement is within a certain % +/- compared to aggregate or average market price (3 months trailing for example)
or
certain volume +/- a certain % of equally divisible monthly quantities, bi monthly, quarterly

in that example their COGS wont change considerably for 12 months no matter what the market does


i personally have several orders along those lines for raw materials and finished goods through sales orders

thats why the "jerks in the office" get paid, a wrong decision on a few of those contracts and your cash flow shits the bed and you can be out of business real quick

when your talking large sums of money its not like you call and place a X-million dollar purchase order for 5-6 week lead time and hang up the phone

 

[BytorJr]

I wonder how many offering opinions here actually have experience in running ammo manufacturing operations.

I don't which is why you never hear me say "they should be able to do x right now"

Not necessarily disagreeing with ya. Like I said, I have no idea how the other lines of more esoteric ammo are run (quantity or frequency). There is also the matter of raw goods not making it into the country thanks to supply chain issues.

 

[BytorJr]

exactly

what if ammo companies have to commit to 12 month blanket orders:

maximum price movement is within a certain % +/- compared to aggregate or average market price (3 months trailing for example)
or
certain volume +/- a certain % of equally divisible monthly quantities, bi monthly, quarterly

in that example their COGS wont change considerably for 12 months no matter what the market does


i personally have several orders along those lines for raw materials and finished goods through sales orders

thats why the "jerks in the office" get paid, a wrong decision on a few of those contracts and your cash flow shits the bed and you can be out of business real quick

when your talking large sums of money its not like you call and place a X-million dollar purchase order for 5-6 week lead time and hang up the phone

Very true. I'm not discounting this, but at this point, I simply cannot trust "status quo business."

For sure they are likely guarding against happened in the early 1980s under very similar circumstances with inflation running rampant and then the interest rates shot through roof whilst everybody had an open line of credit. Such credit allowed one (subcontractors) to be able to supply jobs (HVAC, Electrical, Plumbing, wood, etc) until they got their check from say the prime contractor. Once interest rates shot through the roof, many people were caught holding the bag.

I for one would not like to be an ammo supply house like targetsports, midway or what have you. Would be VERY easy to get burned if the bottom fell out. So I can fully understand why one would not want that scenario to happen. I'm sure part of the "shortage" is based upon this as well. It'd be a great doctorial dissertation.

 

[308pirate]

Not necessarily disagreeing with ya. Like I said, I have no idea how the other lines of more esoteric ammo are run (quantity or frequency). There is also the matter of raw goods not making it into the country thanks to supply chain issues.

Then why start these pointless threads?

Serious question. Why?

 

[Choid]

Has Liz Warren chimed in, or just her Hide doppelgangers?

 

[Ledzep]

I can only offer limited perspective but my perception is that the distribution network and end seller are responsible for most of the price hikes. Material costs have gone up but pricing from the mfgs has not dramatically risen. YMMV on a case by case basis.


End of the day, supply and demand. If you'll buy it at $4 a round, they'll sell it for that much.

 

[Choid]

I don't know how many more "Warning Sign's" American's need to see before they prepare for difficult times. The "Law's of Nature" have never been proven wrong.

Please learn where to put your apostrophes. This is embarrassing.

 

[308pirate]

I don't know how many more "Warning Sign's" American's need to see before they prepare for difficult times. The "Law's of Nature" have never been proven wrong.

You're like a broken clock

 

[brianf]

Very true. I'm not discounting this, but at this point, I simply cannot trust "status quo business."

For sure they are likely guarding against happened in the early 1980s under very similar circumstances with inflation running rampant and then the interest rates shot through roof whilst everybody had an open line of credit. Such credit allowed one (subcontractors) to be able to supply jobs (HVAC, Electrical, Plumbing, wood, etc) until they got their check from say the prime contractor. Once interest rates shot through the roof, many people were caught holding the bag.

I for one would not like to be an ammo supply house like targetsports, midway or what have you. Would be VERY easy to get burned if the bottom fell out. So I can fully understand why one would not want that scenario to happen. I'm sure part of the "shortage" is based upon this as well. It'd be a great doctorial dissertation.

along those lines that why market research costs so much

need to dive into the trends and market reactions to supply irregularities

is the demand we are seeing "hording", or is the demand customers increasing their inventory/safety stock... they are different and the steps or expenditures taken to supply that demand are different.

if the hording or personal inventory is a unlimited quantity, then no matter what the manufacturing capacity of OEM's is...there will always be a shortage and prices will never drop

if prices or supply turn toward what we consider "normal" (again definitions are important) will the average consumer let their stock dwindle and if so how fast

will the hoarder ever let their stock dwindle

will either wait until their stock or hoarded inventory is worth a certain amount and then flood the market with below market price but high profit margin product...just think the way OPEC and oil function

that by itself is volumes of research that procurement and management have to make decisions from


but at the end of the day, this is capitalism and everyone is allowed to make a dollar

we may not like it but, but we have no say and keep you eyes in your own pocket


a certain part of the population will gradually be priced out of the market/ any market, just the way it goes and just the way it will always be

a long time ago you could be a competitive drag racer at the top level with a small budget now its in the millions for mid pack at best

sometimes:
purposely, increased regulation, scarcity or materials, the list goes on


covid, trump, biden, crime, didnt cause the current situation it just sped it up


later

 

[AleksanderSuave]

Then why start these pointless threads?

Serious question. Why?

Because boomers in reloading groups keep telling new guys that if you hold out and dont buy primers, they'll fall in price.

 

[AleksanderSuave]

I wonder how many offering opinions here actually have experience in running ammo manufacturing operations.

I don't which is why you never hear me say "they should be able to do x right now"

I dont, but I have a lot of experience in large scale automotive manufacturing, and consumer research.

I can tell you one thing, ammo shortage is very similar to the car shortage, minus the record-breaking influx of new shoppers that compounds ammo pricing and supply issues.

We spent a long period of time at reduced production capacity or entirely shut down, during covid. We had material costs increase, and we had both raw supply and assembled parts shortages due to global logistics issues.

Combine that with manufacturers consolidating.

Even if they operate 24/7 (auto sort of does, with different shifts and OT, dont know if ammo world does), they still likely operate now at reduced capacity due to COVID labor shortages. Lots of experienced workers leaving/retiring earlier/not coming back, and a lack of experienced workers to replace them, or workers in general due to pay, lack of work from home, or any other condition that covid has introduced as a barrier to hiring.

If they operate 24/7 for the entire year, they still will not catch up on the backlog of orders from the last 2 years, even surpassing this year and into next year.

Add to that, the RECORD-breaking number of new shooters since COVID and Biden in office. Literally record-breaking all increasing demand with literally no supply increases.

Because of ALL of the above, we have the exact situation we're in. Its a sellers market now.

 

[Ledzep]

Production has increased dramatically. Just not keeping up with the absolutely retarded level of demand.

 

[Choid]

I dont, but I have a lot of experience in large scale automotive manufacturing, and consumer research.

I can tell you one thing, ammo shortage is very similar to the car shortage, minus the record-breaking influx of new shoppers that compounds ammo pricing and supply issues.

We spent a long period of time at reduced production capacity or entirely shut down, during covid. We had material costs increase, and we had both raw supply and assembled parts shortages due to global logistics issues.

Combine that with manufacturers consolidating.

Even if they operate 24/7 (auto sort of does, with different shifts and OT, dont know if ammo world does), they still likely operate now at reduced capacity due to COVID labor shortages. Lots of experienced workers leaving/retiring earlier/not coming back, and a lack of experienced workers to replace them, or workers in general due to pay, lack of work from home, or any other condition that covid has introduced as a barrier to hiring.

If they operate 24/7 for the entire year, they still will not catch up on the backlog of orders from the last 2 years, even surpassing this year and into next year.

Add to that, the RECORD-breaking number of new shooters since COVID and Biden in office. Literally record-breaking all increasing demand with literally no supply increases.

Because of ALL of the above, we have the exact situation we're in. Its a sellers market now.

I think this is a really good post. In fact, it could be expanded to include one of the major primer manufacturers going offline as somewhat analogous to the chip shortage issue affecting auto manufacturers (and everybody else.)

Also an important parallel is the varying levels of vertical integration in the manufacturing processes, and the relative pricing powers of the main outlets at the retail level.

Whoever said that a lot of this is not at the manufacturer but retail level is absolutely correct, compounded by the irrefutable fact that much of the ammo price setting is actually being done at auction, but most people here haven't run or analyzed a business in their life, so they just think it all comes down to BIG AMMO!!!

Either that or it is just partriots's's and revalations's from senile citizens'.

 

[AleksanderSuave]

I think this is a really good post. In fact, it could be expanded to include one of the major primer manufacturers going offline as somewhat analogous to the chip shortage issue affecting auto manufacturers (and everybody else.)

Also an important parallel is the varying levels of vertical integration in the manufacturing processes, and the relative pricing powers of the main outlets at the retail level.

Whoever said that a lot of this is not at the manufacturer but retail level is absolutely correct, compounded by the irrefutable fact that much of the ammo price setting is actually being done at auction, but most people here haven't run or analyzed a business in their life, so they just think it all comes down to BIG AMMO!!!

Either that or it is just partriots's's and revalations's from senile citizens'.

At the retail level, the meat supply was interesting to me locally. Maybe there are some similarities. I order my beef 1/4-1/2 cattle at a time locally, depending on the time of year.

My butcher and over 20 farmers statewide all let me know during peak covid that an increase in price primarily came from processors, while overall, the major chains actually pulled back on orders, to inflate price and artificially increase demand. This caused farmers to "sell out" on orders, especially the ones that maintained prior season's per lb pricing.

I confirmed that by getting quotes on costs from the farmer per lb, then processing costs per lb (from the butchers). Most of the time the farmer got shafted in the supply chain, and the consumer of course. One of the largest processors in my state began selling direct from the back of a truck to consumer, in bulk, because of the major grocers cutting back on orders.

Either way, the consumer got shafted, and the price of beef and pork remains abnormal, even after leveling off now, similar to the price of 223 and 9mm

 

[E. Bryant]

If you disagree with this hypothesis, please go ahead and light up Justin via social media, and make sure to post the links here so we can witness the carnage and laugh

 

[JB.IC]

I’d like to get a new X Box but I’m not paying those fks that bought huge supplies early double the price for one.

 

[Choid]

If you disagree with this hypothesis, please go ahead and light up Justin via social media, and make sure to post the links here so we can witness the carnage and laugh

arbitrage.

 

[Feniks Technologies]

If you disagree with this hypothesis, please go ahead and light up Justin via social media, and make sure to post the links here so we can witness the carnage and laugh

Isn’t the whole goal in capitalism to “buy low and sell high”?

No one seems to have an issue with it until it happens in a 2a industry.

I post this example all the time, and have yet to have anyone argue it:

You buy your house for $200k. When you sell, you list it for $250k. You get multiple parties offering up to $325k.

How many of you decide to sell it for $250k because “that’s what it should be worth”?

 

[JB.IC]

I always sell stocks low and buy high. AmIDoingItRight?

 

[Feniks Technologies]

I always sell stocks low and buy high. AmIDoingItRight?

Nope.

You’re taking advantage of the industry with your capital.

 

[Feniks Technologies]

Plenty of people have issue with what’s going on beyond just 2a related industry.

Nobody is happy with the inflated price and low supply of cars or houses, or materials to build currently either. Go on a car forum or some construction forums and you’ll read the same thing.

We’re discussing it on a 2a related website so naturally that’s where the conversation will be focused on.

Point is, everyone is fine with capitalism until it affects them.

Then all of a sudden it’s gouging.

 

[AleksanderSuave]

Point is, everyone is fine with capitalism until it affects them.

Then all of a sudden it’s gouging.

I came back to rewrite that post. Wasn’t intending to sound as rude as it came off. Sorry.

I can think of plenty of examples where we don’t apply textbook capitalism.

We’re far from a by the book adaptation of the principle.

Don’t need to look far for examples of it. Standard oil and “trust busting” is a good start.

 

[JB.IC]

Or people don’t like high inflation for the obvious reasons that are taught in an economics class. Supply shock and expansionary monetary policies aren’t good right now. All of which has led to high inflation. Consumer confidence is at the center of all of this and once consumer confidence takes a turn for the worst, it will not be enjoyable for anyone; businesses or consumers. Or someone who has an ammo business.

If people are complaining for legitimate reasons, which they are, it’s because it’s a warning sign. We are all about enjoy the contractionary monetary policies because that doesn’t normally work out very well for everyone. Hello high unemployment, expensive debt, negative growth, etc.

And no, your perception of capitalism is incorrect. Your simplistic explanation of capitalism undermines the massive complexities of the economy and political system that turns the gears of capitalism. This is why their is an entire scientific area of study devoted to it and even still the big brain economist get things wrong. The theory is constantly being tweaked. Simplistic explanations are rarely accurate just like your explanation of capitalism.

Supply & demand. Buy low sell high. It’s not that simple.

Also, there’s a lot of people who aren’t fine with capitalism. As much as it pains me to agree with some of those types of people, there is some fair points; except how they plan to solve the issues which are almost always horrible.

High inflation can only occur for so long and then we all pay for it. If this Canadian Trucker movement spreads (it’s already spreading) and takes root (the important part of the conjunction), we’re going to be in for some economic hardship. Supply Shock 2.0

 

[Feniks Technologies]

I came back to rewrite that post. Wasn’t intending to sound as rude as it came off. Sorry.

I can think of plenty of examples where we don’t apply textbook capitalism.

We’re far from a by the book adaptation of the principle.

Don’t need to look far for examples of it. Standard oil and “trust busting” is a good start.

I agree.

Just generally stating that people taking advantage of supply/demand is always happening. And people who don’t take the opportunity will just be passed up by those who do.

For example, the ammo company quoted above. My brief research seems to imply that he has kept his prices closer to what he feels is the actual value.

While that may be “honorable” to some, others will consider it bad business. So the opinions are all relative.

If he were to sell his ammo for what the current demand allows, in the future he could be the one with the “capital” to invest in components the next time.

Which is his right to totally not do. As well as his right to complain when others don’t do the same as he.

But in the end, that’s all it will accomplish. Having less capital and more complaints.

 

[E. Bryant]

Isn’t the whole goal in capitalism to “buy low and sell high”?

No one seems to have an issue with it until it happens in a 2a industry.

I post this example all the time, and have yet to have anyone argue it:

You buy your house for $200k. When you sell, you list it for $250k. You get multiple parties offering up to $325k.

How many of you decide to sell it for $250k because “that’s what it should be worth”?

I really think you should present this stance on Twitter. I'd be fascinated to watch those play out; the natural confusion that would arise from watching "Fenix" debate "Feniks" would only add to the entertainment value.

FWIW, I don't have any solutions; I simply passed along this concern because otherwise it's easy for a jamoke like me to sit on the sidelines and complain that a couple pennies per round in raw material costs shouldn't result in a couple dollars per round of cost increase to the consumer.

 

[Mike Casselton]

Please learn where to put your apostrophes. This is embarrassing.

He should a put one in "Times" just to maintain consistency...

 

[308pirate]

If this Canadian Trucker movement spreads (it’s already spreading) and takes root (the important part of the conjunction), we’re going to be in for some economic hardship. Supply Shock 2.0

If that's what it takes to bring down the current government, the juice will be worth the squeeze

 

[HarryBC]

Let’s face it…..the days of 7 cents a round for 115 gr FMJ 9mm and 15 cents a round 5.56 55 gr are gone…prices possible because lots of ammo was being produced at Govt owned Ammunition Plants, the Federal Procurement regulations allow excess production capacity on Government owned equipment and tooling to be utilized for commercial purposes, with “rent” to be paid to the Government. Also the X designation of a specific product meant that the rounds were out of spec in a minor way (ie XM193 vs M193 for example) but still safe to shoot could be sold by the plant operator contractor as an economical disposal method, rather than demil. These are but some of the reasons we enjoyed cheap shooting for a generation……being in a business that allowed you to utilize multi million dollar facilities and equipment and paying “rent” of a fraction of a cent per round, with a supply chain hinged to availability thru the Defense Materials Priority act of 1950. I am not an industry insider, or pretend to understand the challenges of operating a business for PROFIT, I am a retired supervisory Contracting Officer, I negotiated many such agreements over my 40+ year career. I did not deal with the ammunition industry directly but saw the impact of such agreements in a contractors cost of doing business…..a Federal entity can utilize such rental income to offset expenditures of appropriations. Frankly I do not understand how a business could be price competitive with a firm enjoying such a relationship…..

 

[Bigfatcock]

If you didn’t stock up when it was cheap, then you’re low IQ.

 

[Choid]

I really think you should present this stance on Twitter. I'd be fascinated to watch those play out; the natural confusion that would arise from watching "Fenix" debate "Feniks" would only add to the entertainment value.

FWIW, I don't have any solutions; I simply passed along this concern because otherwise it's easy for a jamoke like me to sit on the sidelines and complain that a couple pennies per round in raw material costs shouldn't result in a couple dollars per round of cost increase to the consumer.

Whether people like them or not, these middlemen play an important part in a market economy, but we generally only like them in some circumstances. Like short sellers, who are reviled when they are putting pressure on stocks, but beloved when they are covering their shorts and this giving support to the market in general. I think it is a mistake to see them a part of a "capitalist" system, which is more definitionally about the increase in wealth due the the goods of capital accumulation, and more part of how any market economy works. As proof, I would tell you that these kinds of actors are most common in non-capitalist, black market economies, where they are taking on physical risk to supply product, and are expecting returns for it.

I don't particularly like or hate that it happens, but in the long run their return on capital is not so good that a ton of people are clamoring to get into the ammunitions components middleman business, and by the end surely they will lose as much as they make. But they are there because of mispricings in the market, and they take advantage of them. They don't cause them. They can't.

Again, not as much a position on on as perspective on where this kind of behavior fits in a market system, and why it really isn't part and parcel of capitalism qua capitalism. At the same time, people who are not particularly savvy to markets constantly assume that individual "BIG" participants in markets have much more market power than they actually do. This is reinforced by an anti-market educational system and media, and is found just as much on the right as left these days, even if the thrust can be slightly different. It's not good.