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Suppressors and shorter barrels...

Sixfivesavage

Sixfivesavage

Sergeant
Full Member
Minuteman
Mar 30, 2013
2,388
1,640
Maryland
Anyone ever have issues with shorter barreled bolt guns building up crap in a can? I know they are usually self cleaning and things like H1000 can build carbon but I've only ran H4350 and H4831sc through this can and it's only ever been on a 6.5 Lapua, creed and 243ai so no lead or anything. I've been attributing some pressure issues to a carbon ring developing in the throat until I ran this can on a new rifle and had a round that wouldn't chamber due to a few pieces of carbon on the case head. When I checked the thing over I looked in the rear of the suppressor and could see a lot of build up and could shake some good size chunks of shit out of it. I've since then soaked with carb out from wipe out and now today I soaked it for a bit filled with CLR. Looks a lot better but still has some build up on the first baffle. Shot it 10 times today and when I picked the rifle up to go home, carbon falls out the can and down the barrel into the action. This is on a 20" creed and was previously on a 24" Creed and 22" 6.5 Lapua. The load is 42.4g H4350 and a 140 grain ELD-m. Nothing out of the norm. Is it unburnt powder burning inside the suppressor or something else going on?
 
Thats odd. I use the same suppressor on a 20" 6 creed, 20" 6.5 creed, 24" 22-250, 18" 308 AR and a 10.5" 223 SBR. The blast baffel looks good and the only time I get shit out of it is from the 10.5" 223 which I believe is unburnt powder. I use H4350 in both Creedmoors as well.
 
A magnum primer doesn't really do much for "extra" power during ignition. I believe they are just a thicker metal to withstand the pressures seen inside magnum chambers. I haven't really noticed any boost or anything like that from magnum primers in my rifles. What you are experiencing is nothing more than powder burning inside the can. Change your powder to burn 99-100% of the powder at 19-19 1/2" of barrel, and you will see the problem decrease greatly. I don't have the 6 Creed in my QuickLoad data, so I can't really give you much in the way of other options for powder choice. I can get you close, but not exact.

I do my best to keep my powder charge way lower than max on my 243. I always try to stay below 60,000 chamber pressure. Heat and pressure are enemies to your barrel, and I like mine to last longer, so I go with the lower node. I am running IMR4451 currently, and my 20" barrel really likes the stuff! The longer barrels that you had listed above, will prove to burn the powder longer, so you are basically burning it all up prior to the muzzle. Shorten the barrel, you have to burn it quicker to prevent the build up.

I will see what I can come up with as far as choices of powder for you, and report back with some ideas.

DK
 
Sorry, just re-read the post, and it is the 6.5 Creed, and not the 6. I have that in QuickLoad, so I can give you some numbers... stay tuned.

DK
 
You are currently only burning 97.3% of your powder. Sounds close to 100%, but that would only be good for a straight muzzle, and NOT good for a suppressor.

Hodgdon CFE223 appears to be a much better choice for you.
41.5grns
59,448 chamber
2673 velocity
100% burn

-vs-

H4350
42.4grns
54420 chamber
2581 velocity
97.4% burn

DK
 
Thanks a lot for the info. Probably going to give that powder a try once I get some dies. I was always under the impression the magnum primers have a little more fire to them and thinking I'd get a better ignition on the powder column. Probably just chasing my tail with that though.
 
I tried them with that same train of thought, however it didn’t prove out anything for me. Your mileage may vary...

If you want, I can run you some more numbers. CFE223 is readily available here though, so that was a really easy choice. I can check some others, but those numbers look pretty good.

DK
 
I switched to Federal 215 magnum primers on my 30-06. Mainly because I got a great deal on 2k of them. I did notice that I see pressure signs roughly 1/2 grain below max vs using regular Winchester LR primers.
 
z71rat said:
I tried them with that same train of thought, however it didn’t prove out anything for me. Your mileage may vary...

If you want, I can run you some more numbers. CFE223 is readily available here though, so that was a really easy choice. I can check some others, but those numbers look pretty good.

DK
Click to expand...

I'd appreciate it if you don't mind. Curious about Hybrid 100v and H4831sc since I have a bunch of both as well as 8208.
 
Here are the numbers based on the powders that you gave me. CFE223 still shines above the rest of those, but they are not too bad. I would avoid the 8208XBR though, as you have too much barrel and are actually slowing the projectile down before it leaves the muzzle. The velocities shown are at the muzzle. Your particular barrel may tell you different than what the numbers show, depending on exactly how tight your barrel actually runs to the projectile. My rifle runs around 75-100fps faster than the numbers, but it will give you a good idea on where to start.

Anyway, that is for you to decide...

DK


CFE223 (Best all around)
41.6 grns
83.9% fill
59,685 cp
2679 fps
100% burn @ 17.6"

Hybrid100V
43.0 grns
99.8% fill
57,672 cp
2644 fps
100% burn @ 18.25"

8208XBR
37.9 grns
85.1% fill
59,951 cp
2618 fps
100% burn @ 15.7"

H4350
42.0 grns
96.4% fill
52,929 cp
2558 fps
97.1% burn @ 20"


H4831sc
44.8 grns
99.5% fill
50,715 cp
2550 fps
92.9% burn @ 20"

 
Thanks a lot. I'm showing about 100 fps faster with my current 4350 load but that's also .4 more powder. I might grab a pound of CFE but I have a lot of hybrid 100 so I'll give that a shot. Looks like it would be a lot better than the 4350. I assume I'll start around 42.5 grains with the hybrid.
 
You are most welcome! 42.5 would be a good start. The numbers shown are the maximum that I personally would use. Like I said, I ALWAYS keep my chamber pressure to less than 60K.

DK
 
If you can get your hands on some... Reloder17 appears to be the very best one that I can come up with by the numbers. R17 will be pushing at 2755fps... ;)

I should be getting my 6.5 in the very near future, so I am thinking that I will be going in that direction. We will see... hopefully soon!!

DK
 
z71rat said:
If you can get your hands on some... Reloder17 appears to be the very best one that I can come up with by the numbers. R17 will be pushing at 2755fps... ;)

I should be getting my 6.5 in the very near future, so I am thinking that I will be going in that direction. We will see... hopefully soon!!

DK
Click to expand...

I have RL17. Used it in my 6.5 x 47 way back. Was leery of it for temp sensitivity and trying to stay with H powders. May still give it a try.
 
In my .223 Rem and .204 Ruger the 1lb canister of CFE223 I tried was quite dirty. It reminded me of Superformance which also leaves quite a bit of grease-like carbon in my can. CFE provided good velocities but crap accuracy for me in 3 different rifles. I get very nice groups and decent velocities with RL-17 despite the temperature sensitivity and seems to burn quite clean for me in a longer 7-08 barrel. It's easy to quantify how much velocity shift you get with a couple coolers and a warm water bottle in one and ice in the other.

Here's someone's data on CFE223 temperature sensitivity:
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/sho...re-sensitive&p=4157622&viewfull=1#post4157622
 
I noticed Superformance leaving the same residue in my suppressor as well. I tried it in my 30-06, lots of buildup very quickly.
 
I've run into this same problem with my suppressor. I just figured it was carbon buildup from lots of use, the can has probably seen at least 8K rounds of 308 and 6.5mm. But maybe it has to do with unburnt powder since most of its time has been on 22-24" barrels? I soaked mine several times in CLR and "the dip" until I felt it was clean enough to not cause me problems anymore. Mine actually locked the bolt up twice when carbon chunks fell onto the face of the bolt lugs.
 
not sure if RL16 is an option for you but it is temp stable and also curios what the numbers would calculate out of a 20 in 6.5 creed.
 
Was just thinking about RL16 and giving it a try. I also used CLR on mine twice after I used wipe outs carb out cleaner. Got lots of shit out of it but I swear it still has stuff on the first baffle around the bottom edges where it's welded...unless it's actually weld I'm seeing. The issue has stopped as of lately but I'm sure after looking at the numbers here, it will return in a while if I don't change something.
 
Reloder16 yields the following numbers...

RL16
43.2 gnrs
99.6% fill
57,829 cp
2703 fps
100% burn @ 19.8"

I personally like to have the full burn back at least 3/4 - 1" from the muzzle. Just my personal preference.

DK
 
*** NOTICE ***

Please keep in mind that all of the numbers that I have posted, have been based on the Hornady 140g ELD-M projectile, utilizing the information available to me on QuickLoad. I use QuickLoad as a good starting point, and I HIGHLY recommend that you start off at a lower powder charge for your particular rifle to see how it performs. All rifles, like fingerprints, ARE DIFFERENT.

Also, should you decide to use a lighter projectile, it will result in higher velocities and lower chamber pressures than any of the information that I have shown, and almost always, the burn point is extended farther down the barrel due to the lower resistance of the lighter projectile. It's just physics.

This information is given freely, as I just wish to help as many shooters out as I can, but I do not want any of the liability of what you do with the information. Use at your own discretion.

DK
 
Rat- thanks for the useful info and data. How does H4895 look? Hodgdon recommends it for reduced loads because of its burning properties but I'm not sure why. I've been using it in a 20" .243 and getting good accuracy. Getting it threaded for a can right now.
 
You are more than welcome for the info. I had no idea how much I was going to actually use this software, but I use it all the time. Here is the information that you requested...

H4895
39.4 grns
88.5% fill
59,995 cp
2674 fps
100% burn @ 18.3"

DK
 
z71rat said:
You are more than welcome for the info. I had no idea how much I was going to actually use this software, but I use it all the time. Here is the information that you requested...

H4895
39.4 grns
88.5% fill
59,995 cp
2674 fps
100% burn @ 18.3"

DK
Click to expand...

Is this for the 243 or creed?
 
Great information. I was just looking into a 20" 6.5 Creedmoor for hunting. Would run suppressed. Had never considered pressure issues.
 
QL hasn't been updated in quite a while, so the majority of the newer higher BC bullets are not listed. The closest I thing that I can get you to that is the 126grn RWS. They should run farily close to about the same, but with a slightly higher chamber pressure and slightly slower velocity. You will probably have to back your charge off to start with, as I have nothing to go by for info.

DK

126grn RWS (130grn Berger)
Hybrid 100V
45.3 grns
99.8% fill
56,152 cp
2767 fps
99.8% burn @ 20"
 
z71rat said:
@ 65Sav - Sorry, that was for the 6.5Creed. Got too many variables goin on here.

@ Gray - I will need to know your grain of bullet before I could run any numbers for you.

DK
Click to expand...

Haha Yea I know. Lots of people throwing questions at you. Thanks for the info. I have plenty to look into now.
 
Can you run numbers on 6.5 Creedmoor, Accurate (AA)4350, Hornady case, and 140eld-m. I have a 23" barrel with a suppressor and I'm getting some significant buildup inside it. Also, at what barrel length does h4350 burn completely?
 
@Glasgow

6.5 Creed
AA4350
140 grn ELD-M
41.6 gnrs
99.7% fill
59,367 cp
2760 fps
99.9% burn @ 23"

H4350
97.8% @ 23"
99.9% @ 48.5" ( I ran the numbers out to 55", and NEVER got past the 99.9%)

DK
 
z71rat said:
Reloder16 yields the following numbers...

RL16
43.2 gnrs
99.6% fill
57,829 cp
2703 fps
100% burn @ 19.8"

I personally like to have the full burn back at least 3/4 - 1" from the muzzle. Just my personal preference.

DK
Click to expand...

many thanks for the info. My next build on the list was going to utililze a shorter barrel and this confirms what i need to do. 21 inches it is.
 
Quickload can be trued to a degree if you have good info to work from
RE17 info is off, as suspect many are
I use info from a 6br review of powder that includes measured fps, psi and barrel length
lots of info out there that can be used to true QL
 
z71rat said:
Here are the numbers based on the powders that you gave me. CFE223 still shines above the rest of those, but they are not too bad. I would avoid the 8208XBR though, as you have too much barrel and are actually slowing the projectile down before it leaves the muzzle. The velocities shown are at the muzzle. Your particular barrel may tell you different than what the numbers show, depending on exactly how tight your barrel actually runs to the projectile. My rifle runs around 75-100fps faster than the numbers, but it will give you a good idea on where to start.

Anyway, that is for you to decide...

DK


CFE223 (Best all around)
41.6 grns
83.9% fill
59,685 cp
2679 fps
100% burn @ 17.6"

Hybrid100V
43.0 grns
99.8% fill
57,672 cp
2644 fps
100% burn @ 18.25"

8208XBR
37.9 grns
85.1% fill
59,951 cp
2618 fps
100% burn @ 15.7"

H4350
42.0 grns
96.4% fill
52,929 cp
2558 fps
97.1% burn @ 20"


H4831sc
44.8 grns
99.5% fill
50,715 cp
2550 fps
92.9% burn @ 20"
Click to expand...

Thanks I was using 4831SC in my 23" 6.5 Creed and running into the same problems as 6.5savage was. I ordered some 123 ELD and 130 ELD to try some faster powders and lighter bullets to find a better load combo.

Thanks for bumping this up 6.5savage I have been looking for this all week, and when you linked it for me it took me to a blank page and said contact the administrator.

45.4 of 4831SC was getting 2660fps, 45.7 is 2790 in my 26" I feel like 28-30 you;d work real well with 4831SC.
 
DK,
im Running the 105 hybrid in a suppressed 20” .243 with 41.5 H4350 - am I getting a complete burn? Thanks!
 
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