Rifle Scopes  SWFA no Nightforce scopes

JSTARSZ

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    Re: SWFA no Nightforce scopes

    sometimes they do have them in the used section to sale.
     

    Dagsta

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    Re: SWFA no Nightforce scopes

    If you are looking for Nightforce scopes, call Jay at SportOptics. He goes by "Opticsspecialist" here on the Hide.
     

    mgoodrich

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    Re: SWFA no Nightforce scopes

    About ten years ago they got into trouble with NF for selling them at too low a price.

    My first 2 NF scopes I purchased from them, 3X15-56 mil dot NXS for $950.
     

    PeterN

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    Re: SWFA no Nightforce scopes

    Nightforce is pretty firm with their dealers about maintaining the factory price. I also heard (2nd hand) that SWFA sold at a discount.
     

    bulzeye

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    Re: SWFA no Nightforce scopes

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: PeterN</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Nightforce is pretty firm with their dealers about maintaining the factory price. I also heard (2nd hand) that SWFA sold at a discount. </div></div>

    pretty sad people will support a company that is so strict on illegal price fixing
     

    dmdakota

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    Re: SWFA no Nightforce scopes

    Grabs popcorn
    smile.gif
     

    ThomasA

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    Re: SWFA no Nightforce scopes

    Pretty sad people support a company that thinks of its customers first and vendors second? There are hundreds of NF dealers, price is what get you a sale. I think fixed pricing is ludicrous.
     

    unreconstructed

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    Re: SWFA no Nightforce scopes

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bulzeye</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: PeterN</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Nightforce is pretty firm with their dealers about maintaining the factory price. I also heard (2nd hand) that SWFA sold at a discount. </div></div>

    pretty sad people will support a company that is so strict on illegal price fixing </div></div>

    I agree. No defense for price fixing. Consider that Minimum "Advertised" Pricing is legal. Price fixing is not legal. Many manufacturers are illegally price fixing under the cover of MAP. I hope that it eventually catches up to them and at least some of them get what they deserve...
     

    c3006

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    Re: SWFA no Nightforce scopes

    MAP is not price fixing. A dealer signs a contract with the manufacture to not advertise below a certain price,if they do so they lose their dealer privileges. When dealers conspire to sell a product at a certain price then price fixing has occurred. It's not rocket science.
     

    EricCartmann

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    Re: SWFA no Nightforce scopes

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: c3006</div><div class="ubbcode-body">MAP is not price fixing. A dealer signs a contract with the manufacture to not advertise below a certain price,if they do so they lose their dealer privileges. When dealers conspire to sell a product at a certain price then price fixing has occurred. It's not rocket science. </div></div>

    Really? That's not Price Fixing?

    You don't think making free-men to sign a contract and sell something at a specific price "or else", is not price fixing?

    maybe it is rocket science?
     

    Lockdown1243

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    Re: SWFA no Nightforce scopes

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: c3006</div><div class="ubbcode-body">MAP is not price fixing. A dealer signs a contract with the manufacture to not advertise below a certain price,if they do so they lose their dealer privileges. When dealers conspire to sell a product at a certain price then price fixing has occurred. It's not rocket science. </div></div>

    As to that as well, even if you can't get your dealer to come off the price of the scope, if you ask nicely they just might throw in a free/discounted set of rings or a unimount for you...
     

    excess

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    Re: SWFA no Nightforce scopes

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: c3006</div><div class="ubbcode-body">MAP is not price fixing. A dealer signs a contract with the manufacture to not advertise below a certain price,if they do so they lose their dealer privileges. When dealers conspire to sell a product at a certain price then price fixing has occurred. It's not rocket science. </div></div>

    Nobody is "made" to sign a contract; they sign the contract because they have been made aware of the minimum pricing and think they can sell the product to customers who will purchase it under the belief that it is a resonable value for the money.

    Price fixing would be if Nightforce and Schmidt & Bender (as an example) conspired to agree not to sell their scopes at less than a certain cost in order to (artificially) elevate the common market price.
     

    azimutha

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    Re: SWFA no Nightforce scopes

    I love a good deal as much as anyone but as long as manufacturers are going to sell through middlemen they will use policies like this. No one "makes" them sign a contract. A dealer can decide whether to carry a line or not and abide by the manufacturer's terms.

    Look at it from the manufacturer's view: If you let dealers set their own prices eventually whichever one has the most liquidity will control the market as other dealers are driven out of business. Then the manufacturer will be at the mercy of that one dealer. IMO, the only way out that doesn't piss off the maker or the end buyer is to cut out the middleman entirely.

    Or you could look at it this way: Some middlemen add value by steering you to the right product or maintaining inventory so you can get the product right away. None of that is free.
     

    EricCartmann

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    Re: SWFA no Nightforce scopes

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: azimutha</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I love a good deal as much as anyone but as long as manufacturers are going to sell through middlemen they will use policies like this. No one "makes" them sign a contract. A dealer can decide whether to carry a line or not and abide by the manufacturer's terms.

    Look at it from the manufacturer's view: If you let dealers set their own prices eventually whichever one has the most liquidity will control the market as other dealers are driven out of business. Then the manufacturer will be at the mercy of that one dealer. IMO, the only way out that doesn't piss off the maker or the end buyer is to cut out the middleman entirely.

    Or you could look at it this way: Some middlemen add value by steering you to the right product or maintaining inventory so you can get the product right away. None of that is free. </div></div>


    I really do understand MAP pricing. It broadens your market, and I believe to do overall good for the Manufacturer... regardless though, it's still price fixing. Maybe price fixing is good?
    wink.gif
     

    azimutha

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    Re: SWFA no Nightforce scopes

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: EricCartmann</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Maybe price fixing is good?
    wink.gif
    </div></div> A necessary evil, perhaps.
     

    unreconstructed

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    Re: SWFA no Nightforce scopes

    Price fixing is not good.

    It is illegal.

    MAP is not a big deal, but

    The problem is manufacturers like Premier Reticles (and others!) who punish dealers for SELLING below a minimum price... NOT for ADVERTISING below a minimum price.

    Dealers who comply with MAP policies are punished by manufacturers when it is discovered that the dealer SOLD below a minimum price. There is a difference.

    I hope the cover of MAP doesn't last forever. All consumers are paying more because of it.
     

    DOA

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    Re: SWFA no Nightforce scopes

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Unreconstructed</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Price fixing is not good.

    It is illegal.

    ...

    The problem is manufacturers like Premier Reticles (and others!) who punish dealers for SELLING below a minimum price... NOT for ADVERTISING below a minimum price.

    Dealers who comply with MAP policies are punished by manufacturers when it is discovered that the dealer SOLD below a minimum price. There is a difference.

    I hope the cover of MAP doesn't last forever. All consumers are paying more because of it. </div></div>

    I completely agree.
     

    BigJimFish

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    Re: SWFA no Nightforce scopes

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">It is illegal.</div></div>

    When was the last time this was prosecuted. Music and movie companies base their existence on it. They not only agree on what prices they will all sell their products for in the U.S. but also get together and negotiate how much less they will sell their product for in each international market and devise elaborate region code schemes to facilitate this. They have made a science out of price fixing schemes and I don't see them in court for it.

    Face it, the days of the U.S. government enforcing law concerning monopolistic practices and/or market collusion are long passed. We are just lucky when its not deciding which products we are required by law to purchase against our will.
     

    unreconstructed

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    Re: SWFA no Nightforce scopes

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BigJimFish</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">It is illegal.</div></div>

    When was the last time this was prosecuted. Music and movie companies base their existence on it. They not only agree on what prices they will all sell their products for in the U.S. but also get together and negotiate how much less they will sell their product for in each international market and devise elaborate region code schemes to facilitate this. They have made a science out of price fixing schemes and I don't see them in court for it.

    Face it, the days of the U.S. government enforcing law concerning monopolistic practices and/or market collusion are long passed. We are just lucky when its not deciding which products we are required by law to purchase against our will. </div></div>

    True, but the fact that the government is not enforcing laws to protect consumers doesn't make price fixing OK with me.

    My choice was to sell my Premier Reticles scope when the Liberty Optics blow up happened. I also choose not to purchase Nightforce and others who I perceive to be the worst of the price fixers.

    I completely understand that I have to buy from somebody, so I realize that I am still purchasing from other manufacturers who still price fix to a degree and they are just not as aggressive or are better at hiding it.

    Hopefully the right court case will come along to blow the cover of MAP.
     

    Jackalope33B

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    Re: SWFA no Nightforce scopes

    Whys that sad? I would support them.. Its all about saving $$$$!! Why on earth would I pay $300 from company A, when I can get the same product $300 cheaper from Company B??
    Its not my fault they got caught.
    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bulzeye</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: PeterN</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Nightforce is pretty firm with their dealers about maintaining the factory price. I also heard (2nd hand) that SWFA sold at a discount. </div></div>

    pretty sad people will support a company that is so strict on illegal price fixing </div></div>
     

    joemusso

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    Re: SWFA no Nightforce scopes

    it is not price fixing it is called MSRP. if they did not do this it would let the big guys with more buying power dictate the pricing and there for price the item lower than the little guy can but it for. Hence possibly putting them out of business.

    this is not illegal.

    example (not actual formula)

    store A buys 10 pieces @ 10% back (little guy)

    store B buys 100 pieces @ 25% back (big guy)
    is it fair that now the big guy can now price it lower than the little guy actually bought the item for.

    now with a MSRP the big guy cant sell it lower that the little guy it will be the same across the board.

    and it doesn't cheapen the product. (or let some one whore out the product.)
     

    Jackalope33B

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    Re: SWFA no Nightforce scopes

    BTW, call EuroOptics. Ask for Jason, he will take care of you..

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: lightning</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I noticed that SWFA doesnt sell Nightforce scopes,I thought they did. </div></div>
     

    SuckitTrebek

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    Re: SWFA no Nightforce scopes

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: EricCartmann</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: c3006</div><div class="ubbcode-body">MAP is not price fixing. A dealer signs a contract with the manufacture to not advertise below a certain price,if they do so they lose their dealer privileges. When dealers conspire to sell a product at a certain price then price fixing has occurred. It's not rocket science. </div></div>

    Really? That's not Price Fixing?

    You don't think making free-men to sign a contract and sell something at a specific price "or else", is not price fixing?

    maybe it is rocket science? </div></div>


    It's not illegal for a company to only have their dealers sell at a certain price.

    A couple other companies that do that are Rolex and Apple.

    You want the product, you pay the price. It actually makes things a bit easier for the consumer.



    What is this "give this guy a call and he'll take care of you" bullshit.

    What should be said is "I know of a dealer selling at the minimum price so you don't get fucked"

    I bought my nightforce through jason at sportoptics. And paid the standard $2290
     

    unreconstructed

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    Re: SWFA no Nightforce scopes

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: joemusso</div><div class="ubbcode-body">it is not price fixing it is called MSRP.

    example (not actual formula)

    store A buys 10 pieces @ 10% back (little guy)

    store B buys 100 pieces @ 25% back (big guy)
    is it fair that now the big guy can now price it lower than the little guy actually bought the item for.

    </div></div>

    No. MSRP is Manufacturer SUGGESTED Retail Price.
    Suggested, not "sell below this and we will blacklist you like we did Liberty Optics and SWFA price" BIG difference.
    MSRP is discounted across all markets. This competition among retailers is good for all consumers. It's called a free market.

    Also, if a manufacturer sells their products for less to one dealer than they sell to another dealer, they are causing disparity in selling prices to the consumer. The manufacturer is free to sell their products to dealers at any price the manufacturer decides. The dealers should also have the freedom to sell to consumers at any price they decide. Once again, it's called a free market.

    Unfortunately, we don't have that now.
     

    1911fan

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    Re: SWFA no Nightforce scopes

    What the hell- If I buy Nightforce scopes wholesale for $1000 each, and choose to sell them at $1001 each, that's MY decision. Having NF tell me I have to sell them at $1500 each is price fixing. Call it MAP if you will, it's price fixing. As referenced above, dealers who sell below MAP (Mininum ADVERTISED Price) are punished by NF and lose their dealerships.

    If you call a sheep's tail a leg, who many legs does a sheep have? The answer is still "Four" since calling a tail a leg does not make it a lag.

    If you call price fixing MAP, is it still price fixing? The ultimate payee for this policy is us, the consumers. It eliminates competition between vendors, and we all pay more (MAP) than a truly free marketplace would charge.
    We all lose, Nightforce wins. How's that for a way to support your market? Add in their crappy CS, with multi-month delays for reticle changes or scopes, and I'm done with them. They're still good scopes, and I might pick up a couple more used ones, but the whole "IF you can find one of our scopes, you HAVE to pay what WE decide" is bullshit.


    1911fan
     

    joemusso

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    Re: SWFA no Nightforce scopes

    Ok but to allow a dealer to sell for what ever they want is just like i said it will let the big guys put the small guy out of business. hence whore out the product.

    you are not a small business owner and don't understand the seriousness of this rule.

    the rule is put there for a reason.
     

    joemusso

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    Re: SWFA no Nightforce scopes

    this has nothing to do with the consumer. this is for the business owner. It keeps the playing field level. So the small guy does not get crushed by the big guy.

    it was put in place to protect the small guy.
     

    RHutch

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    Re: SWFA no Nightforce scopes

    If everyone would use some fuckin <span style="font-weight: bold">discretion</span>, and not spew discounted prices all over the net, life would be easier on everyone.
    I have never paid MAP or MSRP for any rifle or optic and plan to continue that trend.
    Bought 6 high dollar scopes last week and got a righteous deal.
    Maybe it's who you know and how you treat them….
     

    Force_Multiplier

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    Re: SWFA no Nightforce scopes

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RHutch</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If everyone would use some fuckin <span style="font-weight: bold">discretion</span>, and not spew discounted prices all over the net, life would be easier on everyone.
    I have never paid MAP or MSRP for any rifle or optic and plan to continue that trend.
    Bought 6 high dollar scopes last week and got a righteous deal.
    Maybe it's who you know and how you treat them&#133;.</div></div>

    anyone else find it ironic that RHutch is bitching about people who "spew discounted prices all over the net".... then goes on to say that he's never paid MAP or MSRP and has bought 6 in the last week?
     

    AtOne

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    Re: SWFA no Nightforce scopes

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: azimutha</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I love a good deal as much as anyone but as long as manufacturers are going to sell through middlemen they will use policies like this. No one "makes" them sign a contract. A dealer can decide whether to carry a line or not and abide by the manufacturer's terms.

    Look at it from the manufacturer's view: If you let dealers set their own prices eventually whichever one has the most liquidity will control the market as other dealers are driven out of business. Then the manufacturer will be at the mercy of that one dealer. IMO, the only way out that doesn't piss off the maker or the end buyer is to cut out the middleman entirely.

    Or you could look at it this way: Some middlemen add value by steering you to the right product or maintaining inventory so you can get the product right away. None of that is free. </div></div>

    Azimutha that's one of the best ways I've seen MAP explained !
    The knowledge and service you get from some of the smaller dealers adds to the overall value of the products their selling especially in the eyes of the manufacturer.
    The Walmart mentality isn't good for everything.
     

    drmarc

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    Re: SWFA no Nightforce scopes

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: AtOne</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><span style="color: #FF0000">The Walmart mentality isn't good for everything. </span> </div></div>

    I'll be honest, it's hard to see where it's good for anything... but that's another debate....
    smile.gif
     

    unreconstructed

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    Re: SWFA no Nightforce scopes

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: joemusso</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Ok but to allow a dealer to sell for what ever they want is just like i said it will let the big guys put the small guy out of business. hence whore out the product.

    you are not a small business owner and don't understand the seriousness of this rule.

    the rule is put there for a reason.

    </div></div>

    BS. I am sure there are plenty of business owners here. I own three businesses. My oldest is a real estate company I started while still in college 20 years ago. I am finally getting married (for the only time) and my fiance owns two businesses herself.

    I compete against bigger businesses every day, especially in trucking/logistics. I can provide better service at a lower price because I have lower overhead and I am more efficient. My customers benefit from lower costs and I benefit by being in business for 20+ years and enjoy my quality of life.

    That model worked for Liberty Optics and their customers benefited from lower prices. Premier Reticles benefited from LO selling their scopes. That is, until PR decided to blow up the relationship with LO because LO got "caught" selling the scopes too cheap. Now we consumers pay more. Well, I don't pay more for Premier scopes, because I got rid of the only one I had. I didn't replace it with a Nightforce, either.
     

    RHutch

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  • Apr 23, 2005
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    Re: SWFA no Nightforce scopes

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Force_Multiplier</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RHutch</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If everyone would use some fuckin <span style="font-weight: bold">discretion</span>, and not spew discounted prices all over the net, life would be easier on everyone.
    I have never paid MAP or MSRP for any rifle or optic and plan to continue that trend.
    Bought 6 high dollar scopes last week and got a righteous deal.
    Maybe it's who you know and how you treat them&#133;.</div></div>

    anyone else find it ironic that RHutch is bitching about people who "spew discounted prices all over the net".... then goes on to say that he's never paid MAP or MSRP and has bought 6 in the last week? </div></div>

    No, it is not ironic. It is good business and is available to all who have the skill and know where to look and who to talk to.
    I am not bitching, just pointing out the idiocy I have witnessed over the past years with people disclosing discounts they, themselves, brokered.

    It is really nobody's business what I or anybody pays for an item.
    Good deals can be had.
     

    okiefired

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    Re: SWFA no Nightforce scopes

    These kind of problems are driven by nothing but greed, plain and simple. Here's a novel idea. How bout the manufactuerer sets his price at what he needs to to make a profit and keep him in business. He then sells that product to ALL dealers (big or small) for the same price. No dealer will sell the product for less than he has invested, not for long anyway. Problem solved.

    okie
     

    Doug308

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    Re: SWFA no Nightforce scopes

    What do you think a Nightforce would cost discounted ? in a real free marketplace, if it's MSRP is $1750 what would the real free market allow it to be sold for ? (estimate)
     

    RHutch

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    Re: SWFA no Nightforce scopes

    The issue isn't MAP or MSRP….it's the minimum selling price mandate that the manufacturer sets on the dealer that we, the public, never see.

    For example (hypothetical of course):

    MAP on an item is $1750.
    Dealer cost is $1250.
    Minimum selling price is $1575 or 10% off of MAP.

    So if a dealer only needs $200 to pay the bills and make a profit , he/she could sell it for $1450 and both dealer and customer are satisfied. Customer perception is that he got a great deal at $300 off MAP.

    This is usually not the case so there are some backdoor policies that prevent any given item from being discounted past a certain threshold.
    This is where the playing field is leveled for all the dealers involved in selling the exact same product.
    It also protects the value of said item in the marketplace.

    I have also seen situations where an item cannot be discounted equal to or lower than what a large entity's (Fed govt. for example) buy price is no matter what the margins are.

    The only way to know what any given item will/could be discounted to, is to call a dealer and ask for the order. This assumes the buyer is only considering price, not looking at the big picture which would include customer service and service after the sale.
     

    Lockdown1243

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    Re: SWFA no Nightforce scopes

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Jackalope33B</div><div class="ubbcode-body">BTW, call EuroOptics. Ask for Jason, he will take care of you..

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: lightning</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I noticed that SWFA doesnt sell Nightforce scopes,I thought they did. </div></div> </div></div>

    +1 Jason and EuroOptics

    Also if you don't like the price or the way a company does business, quit bitching and don't buy from them. If no one buys they go out of business. Along the lines from what another poster was saying, I've been lucky enough to find deals on my LMT MWS, Nightforce Scope, and my wife's LMT MRP to where I paid enough under MSRP total on all of them to pay for another rifle
    smile.gif
    . Take the time and do some digging and you will find a deal on anything. Patience is everything when it comes to the firearms game.