Brian,
Are you sure the S/A 4 slot rails made weren't by Leupold? Do you have a pic?
Crane built a lot of rifles that just got used by different agencies and units that weren't really designated as an "M"whatever or a Mk XX mod yy.
Hi Marty,
Last year Pre64 Marksman and I were researching the use of personal/ non issue optics on snipers rifles and such, and he had this very intriguing PM exchange with another forum member. I’ve sought permission from him to publish portions of that conversation here - hence the slight delay.
The S/A 4 slot rails are referenced in a few spots throughout and seems to suggest it was of crane manufacture. (Marty you personally also rate a few mention's)
Late 80's 1987/1988/1989 ish
1" tubes were all that was out there as far as civi's go, ONLY the Loopy Ultra, B&L of similar construction and a few other very specialized scopes came in 30mm. Rings for them didn't exist (for all practical terms) Also in that time a civilian could not purchase a "Mil-Dot" scope. Nobody made them and those that did wouldn't sell them to you without letter head. That being said a little company in Winchester VA was making a killing swapping reticles on Loopy scopes to the USMC style "football" Mil-Dot (Premier Reticles).
The subject of your quandary also evolved about that time 1989 to be exact. Settle in a story ensues from here.
Also made of unobtanium were the Remington rifles known as the PSS. Again only available to Mil & LEO. It was a 26", H-S Precision stocked heavy bbl'd Rem 700 SA. My good friend and shooting partner (curse him for not getting me one too) was able by some obfuscation to order one of these rifles directly from Remington Military/LEO sales. We topped it with a Loopy VXII 4-12X on a set of Redfeild rings and JR base. At 1K down at Camp LeJune, NC doing warm up for the Navy Rifle Team after the East Coast and All Navy Matches we maxed out the elevation and were holding the crook of a pine tree about 18' above the target ripping the X ring out of the target with M-852.
Following our proud showing we decided that we needed more elevation than we had and with the help of another shooter/gunsmith we hit upon the idea of "beer can shim's". We deduced that the addition of 4 layers of beer cans would get us to 1K w/o holding over. We were quite happy to prove this at Camp Butner, NC at a regional competition during an "Any/Any" match. It wasn't pretty but it worked, kind of. We could only get about 4 MOA of wind right or left out of the scope. We added another layer of beer can and longer screws and set off to Quantico, VA for the Inter-Service match.
At Inter-Service all of the "Magnum's" (what were to become the MK-13 many years later) were taken so my partner pulls out his affectionately named "Black Beauty" and proceeds to do a quick bore clean. The head Armorer (a fella named Pat Metternight) took one look at our bubba gun and said "What the fuck kind of abortion is that! Gimme that gun." or words to that effect. As a matter of fact a lot more and more colorful words to that effect. Pat was THE GOD of Crane and my partner and I were on our first trip to the big show so the rifle was given up and it disappeared into the Crane van. Another Armorer named "Dobber" came out, cigarette dangling from his mouth shaking his head looking at us and grumbling under his breath. Now we had pissed off not only the “God of Crane” but "THE Gunsmith". We figured we were going to be sent home at any minute for being too stupid to live.
The next morning there was my bud’s rifle with a funny looking 1 piece rail and a 16X Loppy ultra sitting on top of it. It came with the warning that the scope was a loner and that the screw holes in the receiver were now something called 8-40’s, and we’d need to find some Weaver rings if we wanted to use the mount which had an additional 20 MOA of angle built in, AFTER we gave back the Ultra. We weren’t real sure what all that meant but hell we had a scope that could get us to 1K w/o the use of a pine tree. The scope and base performed as designed and we both did well at the long line. Well enough that we were both assigned magnum’s for Camp Perry.
The base in question was made of steel and had 4 picatinny slot’s milled into it. 2 forward and 2 aft and was set up for the M-700 SA (M-40) and we were told it was a prototype that Crane was working on for “some folks”. Special Warfare didn’t use the 700 SA so it wasn’t us but the Marine’s obviously did and the Army was beginning to.
Fast forward 2 decades to The Allegheny Sniper Challenge in WV where I was eating pizza and drinking beer with Moon, George Gardner (GA Precision) and Marty Bordsen (Badger Ord.) when the subject of 338LM’s came up and Marty was saying how he had modified the first 10 or 20 rifles for Crane to be able to handle the cartridge.
“Oh, when did you work for Crane?” say’s I.
“Back in the 80’s.” says Marty.
“My bud has a scope rail from Crane that was a prototype from back then on his PSS.”
“4 slot’s?”
“Yes Sir.”
“I made them.”
Ever wondered how Badger Ordinance got started? There is a real good start.
Now as to the USMC fielding Ultras & MK-4’s in place of the Unertl to my knowledge it was never authorized. There was a program to build “DMR” rifles on the M-14 platform that used a 3 – 9X Loopy optic. That being said I do know several snipers that used personal scopes and “platoon purchase” scopes when the Unertl’s were having serious capability issues before USO got a hold of them. These were 1” tubed versions to drop right into the Redfield rings. I’ve seen them mounted up in the field in Liberia, Rwanda, Somalia and Bosnia. You must remember that Picatinny and 30mm scopes were not the “standard” they are now until after 2000. Even after Y2K the Loopy LR/T M1 and M2 were about the only commercially “readily” available 30mm scopes out there with very few ring and rail mfg’s. Most were still using “Weaver” sized slots.
The first few years of OEF and OIF were pretty much wide open for the use of “personal gear” on weapons platforms because we hadn’t been in a real fight in years and guys were mounting all kinds of stuff to their guns. You can look at the history of the M-4 and see how fast that moved from SOCOM to standard issue.
Hope that helps.
Cheers,
Doc76251
Also another portion of those emails regarding the occasional VariX leupold which found its way into service, P64 'Marksman thought this would probably be of interest you Mescabug
Latest from Doc76251 confirming the VariXIIIs "snuck into" Unertl bases while deployed. All this confirming what I wanted to know and than I decide to continue with the M24. I will do an M40a1 later for sure so no worries but I crack myself up that I'm not going full steam ahead with an m40a1 build after learning all this!
BTW below he mentions LR/Ts. That's refering to my discussion with him about in 1999/2000 Leupold added variable 30mm tube scopes. These are not at all like the fixed power ultra m4s. When they came out they were designated variXIII LR/T. Now they are branded Mk4 like the older Ultras even though construction-wise they are different. But Doc confirmed the Older 1" tube Vari-x III Leupolds used operationally in Unertl Mounts on M40a1s! My bet is they'd be the older police models with both elev and windage target knobs or possibly the varmint models that only had elevation target turret as well. I'd say go with the police model. It be 3-9x 10.
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Quote from Doc76251:
They were a mix of Loopies, usually a VariX-3 as this was long before the LR/T's ande M-4's which were 30mm main tubes. It was one thing to pull a broke scope and replace it, it was quite something else to pull a perfectly good base. Most had target turrets or competition turrets. I don't recall seeing a fixed power optic but I could be wrong. You have to remember these were field replacements, some were personnaly owned and some were platoon buys. A lot of them were put on after they embarked and removed before they came back to garrison. There was more than one sniper that went into the field with a 25 meter flight deck zero.
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Thanks again to Pre64 Marksman for his permission, I believe his and of course Doc76251's info represents a valuable contribution to the forums collective knowledge base and should interest a quite a few of you.
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