Gunsmithing Tactical action tolerances

916dude!

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I am planning on building another tac rifle in the near future. I just got my 5-25 PMII from the group buy so now I need to start getting the rest of my parts. I want to use a BAT machine VRPIC action and I was told by a few people to have BAT double their tolerences on it and get the diamond Bolt fluting so I wouldn't have to worry about it not cyceling. Does that double tolerence on a BAT sound about right for a tac gun?

Thanks in advance guy!
 

MinorDamage

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Re: Tacticle action tolerances

I think the BAT VRPIC already has a little more play than their other actions. However, I would call BAT and ask them for some advice based on your usage conditions.

BTW...the word is "Tactical" not "Tacticle"

Josh
 

916dude!

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Re: Tacticle action tolerances

I have contacted bat before and they said they could open up the tolerences, but I was wondering if double would be too much or not.
 

BlackOps Tech

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Re: Tacticle action tolerances

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 916dude!</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I have contacted bat before and they said they could open up the tolerences, but I was wondering if double would be too much or not. </div></div>

I think double would be a bit excessive....
 

JJones75

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Re: Tacticle action tolerances

explain to them what your wanting the action to do and see what they say.

seems to me that this would be a good reasons to stone the bolt to an eliptical shape , sort of giving it the "Borden bump" type of lock up , once the bolt cams open their is alot more tolerance and as the bolt cams closes the bolt takes up slack.

all that said I've seen some sloppy ass factory remington bolt action built guns shoot lights out , so I think that ALOT more of the accuracy comes from the bolt being true to the chamber and the chamber being cut right than the actual "tightness" of the bolt
 

LongRifles Inc.

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    Re: Tacticle action tolerances

    Accuracy starts in the barrel. Period.

    Everything else just compliments it. Given a choice between choosing the worlds best action coupled with a mediocre barrel or a pawn shop remington with a great barrel (properly fitted and chambered mind you) I'll choose the remington every time.

    There's too many examples that I've seen with my own eyes. Norm Crawford, a retired Sgt Maj in the Army shot on the US Palma Team in 2003. His action was a beater remington with a great barrel in a well fitted stock. Corbin Shell, another accomplished LR competitive shooter, won the TN state LR championships about ten years ago with a MAUSER that Hitler might have hauled around. Again, a great barrel and a well fitted stock.

    Will a tighter action make a rifle shoot even better? Certainly. BUT if this is to be a true "tactical rifle" then the number one rule is "ITS ALWAYS GOTTA WORK". A benchrest or target gun with a coat of black paint doesn't make the muster.

    If your just going to shoot it at 100 yards and amaze your buddies with 3 shot groups then buy the tightest action you can find, stick a car axle size barrel on it, and chamber it in 6mm BR with flat base bullets. You'll be the talk of the firing line.


    Good luck with your project.

     

    DAVETOOLEY

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    Re: Tactical action tolerances

    I don't know if Bruce loosens up the tolerances on that action or not but remember that his nickname is TOO TIGHT. Consider any finish you might apply to the bolt. I like melanite myself.
     

    BlackOps Tech

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    Re: Tacticle action tolerances

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: C. Dixon</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Accuracy starts in the barrel. Period. </div></div>

    The barrel is certainly part of it, but it isn't the only part of the equation.
     

    Bacarrat

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    Re: Tacticle action tolerances

    So... what is more important, a good action or a good barrel? Other then the obvious, the the plumber is.
     

    chpprguy

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    Re: Tacticle action tolerances

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: C. Dixon</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Corbin Shell, another accomplished LR competitive shooter, won the TN state LR championships about ten years ago <span style="color: #3333FF">with a MAUSER that Hitler might have hauled around.</span>
    </div></div>

    That made me spit coke on my keyboard...
    grin.gif


    while I have very limited experience, I have put nice barrels on well worn mauser actions and they have shot very well....
     

    BlackOps Tech

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    Re: Tacticle action tolerances

    A good action is just as important as a quality barrel and it all has to be assembled correctly. If a Remington is used on a quality custom build, the amount of slop between the bolt and receiver is somewhat immaterial (to a degree) for a field/tactical gun but everything else should be as square and concentric as possible.

    I agree that the barrel is a major part of the equation, but I wouldn't screw a barrel onto a factory spec receiver and expect the best possible results. Sound/solid components with sound/solid build practices/procedures will net the best results. No shortcuts allowed....
     

    selfbowhunter

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    Re: Tacticle action tolerances

    BAT keeps tolerance on ALL of their actions the same at .0015 or so ACCORDING TO A BAT REPRESENTATIVE. i would hardly think .003 is excessive for a TAC rifle. i too agree that the barrel is THE MAJOR part of the accuracy equation but NOT the only part. i have seen too many remingtons that were never trued shoot much better than they should with nothing more than a good match grade tube on them.

    chuck
     

    DAVETOOLEY

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    Re: Tacticle action tolerances

    I'll put in my two cents worth. After being a competitive shooter for 32 years now, plumbing guns for 27 years I know there are no absolutes. There are exceptions to every rule but here is what I've learned. No two Remingtons will perform the same, no two trued Remingtons will perform the same, not every custom action from the same maker will perform the same( they should but you get a wild one occasionaly I have a few along the way) i've had my own action for several years now, it's just a Remington clone but I know if I build 100 rifles, half trued Remingtons and half my action, the rifles built on my action will shoot better and be easier to tune up 90+% of the time.

    Accuracy is a lot of small things that add up. Quality barrel, match chamber, any action that the ignition system works properly, decent stock and bedding job and bullets bullets bullets. Without 1/2 MOA bullets you'll never have a 1/2 MOA rifle then the other components will influence the package to varying degrees.
     

    916dude!

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    Re: Tacticle action tolerances

    Thanks for all the info guys! I really appreciate it. I know a great tube is a huge part of the equation. I was mainly interested in the action right now. I have to buy things one thing at a time. I've been reading about barrels too and there are too many good one for me to choose from right now. I still have more research for that!
     

    Hateca

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    Re: Tacticle action tolerances

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dave Tooley</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Without 1/2 MOA bullets you'll never have a 1/2 MOA rifle then the other components will influence the package to varying degrees. </div></div>

    Not to mention if you don't have a 1/2 MOA nut behind the bolt.

    It still amazes me how many think just because the rifle has a 1/2 MOA guarantee that it will magically make the owner a 1/2 MOA shooter.
     

    916dude!

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    Re: Tacticle action tolerances

    Lol I know about the nut behind the bolt. I practice whenever I cAn and hand load. I just want to build a bad ass stick just because I want it! Then hopefully with lots and lots of practice I'll be able to shoot as good as my rifle
     

    Clark

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    Re: Tacticle action tolerances

    A custom action might make the difference between a .2" group and a .1" group, but I have been going to ranges for decades, and I have only seen a few guys get more than one group better than 1.0".

    Most times I don't see anyone else get a 1.0" group.

    If I see a US Optics scope, I will ask, "Did you learn about those from Sniper's Hide Forum?"
    The answer is always, "Yes".

    It is a small world, with big groups.
     

    bohem

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    Re: Tacticle action tolerances

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Clark</div><div class="ubbcode-body">A custom action might make the difference between a .2" group and a .1" group, but I have been going to ranges for decades, and I have only seen a few guys get more than one group better than 1.0".

    Most times I don't see anyone else get a 1.0" group.

    If I see a US Optics scope, I will ask, "Did you learn about those from Sniper's Hide Forum?"
    The answer is always, "Yes".

    It is a small world, with big groups. </div></div>

    You would love the club I belong to. Between the high contingent of NRA High Power "Master" and "High Master" shooters and the IBS guys that seem to live at the range I see sub 1/2 MOA groups on a very regular basis.
     

    9H_Cracka

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    Re: Tacticle action tolerances

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: chpprguy</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: C. Dixon</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Corbin Shell, another accomplished LR competitive shooter, won the TN state LR championships about ten years ago <span style="color: #3333FF">with a MAUSER that Hitler might have hauled around.</span>
    </div></div>

    That made me spit coke on my keyboard...
    grin.gif


    while I have very limited experience, I have put nice barrels on well worn mauser actions and they have shot very well.... </div></div>

    Kent Reeve won the NRA LR championship a few years ago shooting a Mauser actioned 300 WM for the non-Palma portions of the aggregate. Not sure if Uncle Adolf carried his around or not. Also not sure what his bolt to body clearance is with this rifle, but I'm sure if played a major role in his win.
     

    rsilvers

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    Re: Tacticle action tolerances

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Clark</div><div class="ubbcode-body">A custom action might make the difference between a .2" group and a .1" group, but I have been going to ranges for decades, and I have only seen a few guys get more than one group better than 1.0".</div></div>

    This is probably literally true, as shocking as it sounds. I don't watch others shoot so I guess I don't know. Depends what range I go to. Where I have done egg shoots I bet 90% of the people there could shoot a 10 shot group under 1 MOA and 50% of the people could shoot 10 shot groups under 0.5 MOA.
     

    Pete Lincoln

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    Re: Tacticle action tolerances

    Still an interesting question is,

    What do you guys consider to the the optimum clearance between bolt body and the hole it goes into.??

    what about the clearance required for parts to fit together and function. the clearance of any part when fitted into another is going to be different when one considers the end use of the parts concerned,??

    A Match rifle action that will never see muck fluff dust and custard in its lifetime can be a tighter fit than a tactical rifle action that will be dragged, thrown and fought through the dust, shit, mud and sand of certain battlefield, and indeed even rifle used on tactical matches see a lot mor muck than thier BR counterparts.

    I think some folk get machining tollerance mixed up with fit size.

    Actions maybe machined to a tollerance of 0.0015" but thats the allowable machine tollerance + or - from what is stated in the technical drawing of the part and not the clearance between the actual bolt body diameter and the hole it fits into. Which is the actual question that was stated in the beginning, or did i read it wrong ?

    regards Pete
     

    DAVETOOLEY

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    Re: Tacticle action tolerances

    Pete

    Good point.
    Custom single shot target action .002"
    Working gun that will get dirty and may or may not be bedded stress free .004" minimum. There can be no compromise when it comes to function as a part of overall performance.
     

    Pete Lincoln

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    Re: Tacticle action tolerances

    Dave,

    yep, 0.1mm to 0.15mm ( 0.004 to 0.006) clearance between bolt and bolt hole is pretty much what ive managed to work out the hard way, by trail and error to see what will work dirty and what wont.

    some helical fluting helps. or at least fluting in the tight spots.

    Ive a particularly tight match action here ( last one of our stinger actions) it will not work nicely when it gets covered with dust, that means if you leave it stood around for a week, and then expect it to work without a wipe over, it wont. bolt hole is 22mm and the bolt is 21.95mm

    after measuring a shed load of factory actions, most have a clearance around 0.2mm or 0.012 and work all day full of muck,
    but a little tighter on a custom action still works 100%

    rgds Pete
     

    border_reiver

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    Re: Tacticle action tolerances

    Indeed Pete, people get confused with tolerance and dimesioning..I would rather keep the tolerance and increase dimensioning for fit purposes...It's like that Min SAAMI spec nonsense..WTF does that mean really?
     

    300sniper

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    Re: Tacticle action tolerances

    i guess i got caught up in the tolerance vs. clearance semantics too. i'll have to watch myself in the future, but i still say blueprinting an action is machining it to a spec and truing is doing what it takes to make it square whether it be .001" or .020"
    grin.gif
    [reference to another recent thread].


    as far as bolt body to receiver raceway <span style="font-style: italic">clearance</span> on a tactical or field rifle, i have no reason to disagree with .004"-.006" being a good rule of thumb.
     

    Pete Lincoln

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    Re: Tacticle action tolerances

    JR bud, hows it going, ive some cool photos of you with the waitress at the IWA !!

    the term Blue Printing would be machining an action to within the tollerances stated on the blue print or technische zeichnung, er í mean tech drawing.. in the case of remmy 700 i expect all that leave the factory are brueprinted to the remington action data sheet,.as slack in tollerance as that may or may not be.

    I doubt many smiths who re machine remingtons work to a drawing, but rather just take off what is nessecary to get the action squared up. so blue printing is not realy the correct term when it comes to re machining factory actions, it just seems to have stuck and everyone knows what one is talking about when the term is used,

    Rgds Pete
     

    border_reiver

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    Re: Tacticle action tolerances

    Aye up Pete...she was a cutie, a deffo 'she'd get it' candidate..I've had conversations with engineers who were told to figure out how 'tighten the tolerance', without regard for function..Conversation went something like JR says " I can hold a hell of a tight tolerance on a drawing, the gnats, but WTF does that tell me how it works. Figure that out first, then I'll tell you how to figure tolerance."
     

    916dude!

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    Re: Tacticle action tolerances

    All great info guys. I'm learning a lot! I like the explination of clearance vs. Tolerance. I guess I should have titled this tread tac action clearances
     

    stiller

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    Re: Tacticle action tolerances

    My testing has shown anything in the less than .005/.006 seems to work about the same. With much more than that you start giving up a little. What you tend to get is flyers. Not so much all the shots go out, but a few. I have seen lots of old BR actions shoot real well with lots of clearance and still win matches, but when they seem to go bad, its due to flyers. My belief is it is in the interaction with the trigger and ignition. I wouldnt run less than .003 in a tactical action. Fluting helps too. Elliptical or bumps dont do much good as they tend to smash the grit in as it is turned. Made a few with that idea in mind, didnt work out like I thought. Tooley has built lots of guns and is pretty smart in what he tells you. If I was going to build a TRUE tactical action, get something damn tough with clearances (not tolerances by the way) in the numbers we stated here. BAT makes a great action as well as others. As has been stated in another thread, we are going to a new handle design that basically cant come off for a few months and then a true one piece billet unit after that this year. Take a look at our TAC actions if you like, dont if you dont. All this information applies to whoever makes the unit for you. Good luck with whoever you chose.