Talk me into or out of 6BR for PRS

[steve123]

Don't disagree with where your argument is going and maybe I should quit using math... but even if you completely called it wrong, wouldn't the difference between .5 mil and 1.5 mil still get a hit on a 4" plate at 300?

And here's another fun one.

I was squaded with the guy that won the SRM match on that day a few years ago. He was shooting his Dasher coming over from 6x47 the previous years. His comment that stuck in my head was this... He said in so many words, I've picked up more hits on the tip of the diamond shaped steel than I did with any of the other cartridges I've shot because the vertical is so small with the Dasher. On certain shapes of steel, like diamonds and circles, small vertical can make a big difference.

 

[steve123]

Steve, are you shooting Raton tomorrow?

I wish!

Nah, I'm 9 hours west and don't make it out that way very often.

 

[goosed]

And here's another fun one.

I was squaded with the guy that won the SRM match on that day a few years ago. He was shooting his Dasher coming over from 6x47 the previous years. His comment that stuck in my head was this... He said in so many words, I've picked up more hits on the tip of the diamond shaped steel than I did with any of the other cartridges I've shot because the vertical is so small with the Dasher. On certain shapes of steel, like diamonds and circles, small vertical can make a big difference.

Do you believe your anecdote is a result of 6BR cases being that much more accurate then the 6x47 case or simply a product of the recent attitude shift from "you need to run the absolute ragged edge of velocity" to the past year or so where "find the widest node for absolute consistency/reliability" has become the prevailing wisdom?

 

[steve123]

Do you believe your anecdote is a result of 6BR cases being that much more accurate then the 6x47 case or simply a product of the recent attitude shift from "you need to run the absolute ragged edge of velocity" to the past year or so where "find the widest node for absolute consistency/reliability" has become the prevailing wisdom?

If I take in all the information I've come across on the different forums it becomes very hard to discount the amazing accuracy the 6br's/and all of it's wildcats, are capable of. I think the scores of long range benchrest wins and world records pretty much proves that as fact. So the question then comes down to the same things we're discussing in this thread. Do "we" need that absolute precision for what we do???, I say not always. Can that level of tiny vertical and low ES come in handy, absolutely.

Can a .536BC bullet going 3172 fps as compared to 6mmBR going 2872 fps, with slightly more recoil and doing .5moa, be an asset on some stages or matches???, sure it can. I used to shoot a local long range steel match where most of the targets were between 500y and 900Y. Most were square or a sideways rectangle in the 1.5 moa region. This place was also located near the top of a hill and it was almost always windy and some targets were way left or way right. Most of the match was shot off the bipod in prone. I very seriously doubt I would have won as much as I did shooting a 6BR! At this match I also experimented with 6.5 Saum and 30-375R. At times there was a prominent and obvious advantage with that big 30 caliber using 230 hybrids at 2940 fps!

Then there's the SRM with most steel closer in with diamonds and circles... I think a BR/BRX,Dasher is well suited. (maybe not this weekend with 20 mph winds??!!)

Of course many of the stages these days are positional or off of obstacles so that pretty much puts the slower 6mm's and the faster 6mm's on even ground and puts large cartridges at a disadvantage because one can't see where the misses go as easy.

I do ladder testing at 300-400Y when I work up loads, and I pick the middle of the high node. I use temp stable powders and br prep my brass. If the barrel is good and it all comes together, my 6x47 will put down pretty small vertical with 6-7 SD's and a reasonably wide node, but not so small that I can come anywhere close to shooting sub 1" five shot groups at 600Y or 2"ish at 1000Y, like the benchrest winners seem to do on a calm-ish day..

So this is why I go back and forth you see.

I do love all the attributes of the BR's! I'm just trying to decide what will work best for me.

 

[Sheldon N]

I think your point is valid. You have an excellent understanding of ballistics so I know you will agree with this statement in regards to shooting in the wind:

"All other variables held constant, higher velocity equals higher hit probability."

That's the general idea behind my argument. If you keep lowering velocity at some point it will cost you hits on target. Maybe you are right and that 2,850 FPS with a 105 hybrid is fast enough that it does not matter.

The problem is that you can't hold all else equal in the tradeoff of speed vs wind.

The other side of the coin is that as you go slower, recoil goes down and there's a point where you start to see impacts/misses more easily. So that one point you dropped due to just missing the edge might be offset by that one point you picked up because you just barely saw that bullet splash in the grass and were able to make a wind correction.

For me though, a big part of it is that for the unstable positional barricade stuff I shoot better with the smaller caliber guns. Not just that the gun is better, but that I shoot better with it. Easier to be calm and make smooth trigger pulls, not let the blast and recoil make you anticipate the shot and yank the trigger. And a calm shooter is way more able to be steady on target.

This might not be true for everyone, especially if you're someone who does a great job of managing recoil and who shoots every caliber the same regardless. But for me it's been a big help, coming after a year of competing with 308.

 

[steve123]

Steve, are you shooting Raton tomorrow?

Hey, how'd the SRM go? What was your take on that 6SLR compared to a Dasher, any thoughts?

 

[D_TROS]

I shot my second match with a BR last weekend. On the 4 long range stages ( 5 targets roughly 700-1200 yards) I got 6 points. That's 6 out of a possible 40. I took 9th. 20 pts behind the leaders. Do the math if my hit percentage increases even to 50%. I think my data was off. lol I honestly have no idea. Switchy winds and no backstop to spot misses made for a rough weekend.

Second pt is my BRX was going 3050 which is roughly 250 fps faster than my BR (I don't know why people are saying only 100)

Another pt, its way more the arrow than the caliber. I chuckle seeing all the numbers that are being crunched...Jake won the SHC with a 6.5x47 shooting 123 scenars. I was 2nd the year before with a 6x47. Jerry is kicking names with a 6.5x47. Jake last weekend shot a better score on day 2 than day 1 with 20 less shots taken with the BRX. One word. Indian & practice. The cal isn't going to make you a better shooter. Sorry. Just close your eyes and pick one. If I had it all to do again, I would pick the 6x47 and never look back.

Last pt, Im sick of fire forming. SO I went BR.
lol I cant stop chasing the trend either hahaha.


Regards,
DT

 

[goosed]

I shot my second match with a BR last weekend. On the 4 long range stages ( 5 targets roughly 700-1200 yards) I got 6 points. That's 6 out of a possible 40. I took 9th. 20 pts behind the leaders. Do the math if my hit percentage increases even to 50%. I think my data was off. lol I honestly have no idea. Switchy winds and no backstop to spot misses made for a rough weekend.

Second pt is my BRX was going 3050 which is roughly 250 fps faster than my BR (I don't know why people are saying only 100)

Another pt, its way more the arrow than the caliber. I chuckle seeing all the numbers that are being crunched...Jake won the SHC with a 6.5x47 shooting 123 scenars. I was 2nd the year before with a 6x47. Jerry is kicking names with a 6.5x47. Jake last weekend shot a better score on day 2 than day 1 with 20 less shots taken with the BRX. One word. Indian & practice. The cal isn't going to make you a better shooter. Sorry. Just close your eyes and pick one. If I had it all to do again, I would pick the 6x47 and never look back.

Last pt, Im sick of fire forming. SO I went BR.
lol I cant stop chasing the trend either hahaha.


Regards,
DT

I like it. Recommend closing your eyes and picking any caliber cause it's the shooter not caliber... then admit you don't take your own advice

Well played sir

 

[bab029]

12 grains is 6 kernels.

What? Really?

Is RL26 like pea gravel?

 

[Conrad]

What? Really?

Is RL26 like pea gravel?

No, that math doesn’t add up.....

 

[steve123]

I shot my second match with a BR last weekend. On the 4 long range stages ( 5 targets roughly 700-1200 yards) I got 6 points. That's 6 out of a possible 40. I took 9th. 20 pts behind the leaders. Do the math if my hit percentage increases even to 50%. I think my data was off. lol I honestly have no idea. Switchy winds and no backstop to spot misses made for a rough weekend.

Second pt is my BRX was going 3050 which is roughly 250 fps faster than my BR (I don't know why people are saying only 100)

Another pt, its way more the arrow than the caliber. I chuckle seeing all the numbers that are being crunched...Jake won the SHC with a 6.5x47 shooting 123 scenars. I was 2nd the year before with a 6x47. Jerry is kicking names with a 6.5x47. Jake last weekend shot a better score on day 2 than day 1 with 20 less shots taken with the BRX. One word. Indian & practice. The cal isn't going to make you a better shooter. Sorry. Just close your eyes and pick one. If I had it all to do again, I would pick the 6x47 and never look back.

Last pt, Im sick of fire forming. SO I went BR.
lol I cant stop chasing the trend either hahaha.


Regards,
DT

Tied for second. First place won it with a 51 and three of us tied with a 49. 1st place was a Dasher, I was obviously shooting a 6slr and my buddy who also tied was shooting a 6xc. I don't know what the other guy who tied for second was shooting.

The rifle did real well. As you know it is a field style match with 9 of 10 stages on your belly so a 26in heavy Palma with an Ultra 7 on it is well-suited to that match. I was able to see all of my impacts and misses. 9 of my 11 misses we're just wind call based. The winds weren't as bad as predicted but they were very shifty and gusty. Challenging enough to be fun but not so ridiculous that it was frustrating.

One of my buddies that I was shooting with was shooting a 6br and he did not do very well but he apparently had a zero problem, changed the scope rings, dropped the scope or some deal like that. It was also his first time shooting that match.

I don't know if I would want to shoot the rifle in this configuration at the local PRS Club match. It is pretty much a barricade Fest. Taking the suppressor off in order to get in and around barricades quicker might make a difference. I am shooting 44 grains of rl26. If you ignore that there different types of powder I am shooting 12 more grains of powder in the SLR than in the Dasher. 12 grains is 6 kernels. A pretty small amount. I've only shot the rifle with the suppressor on except for 5 rounds. I was very taken aback by the muzzle blast but I think it was just a difference in perception from only shooting the rifle suppressed up until that point. I shot a 6slr 2 years ago and don't remember thinking that it was a lot of recoil or muzzle blast. A lot of my colleagues who are used to shooting 308 shot that 6slr and consequently accused me of cheating. I guess it is all relative and what you are used to. I weigh 250 pounds as well.

Good shooting man!

A Dasher ends up winning anyway. Ha, I'm just as confused as I was a few days ago.

I know one thing though, it's not any harder to screw one barrel on in any cartridge than it is another!

This is a fun subject. I suppose the big thing is getting out and practicing, that's where extra barrel life becomes appealing to me.

DTROS,

Yeah , that's what I'm worried about with 6BR and I'm not the greatest fan of fireforming either.

Would you happen to know if Jake went to other cartridges before and came back to 6.5x47L?

 

[Sheldon N]

Would you happen to know if Jake went to other cartridges before and came back to 6.5x47L?

Vibbert, or different Jake?

Vibbert's shooting a 6BRX at around 2890-2920 fps with a 105. He dabbled in the 6.5x47 for a while but has been BRX for at least a year now.

 

[steve123]

Vibbert, or different Jake?

Vibbert's shooting a 6BRX at around 2890-2920 fps with a 105. He dabbled in the 6.5x47 for a while but has been BRX for at least a year now.

Good question, I was assuming JV was the person DTROS was referring to. Maybe DTROS meant another Jake???

JV, if you see this post please comment!

BTW, how's that 6BRA coming along, anything to say one way or another?

 

[Sheldon N]

6BRA is coming along nicely, shot several comps with it. It's pretty much like the Dasher, but with better fire forming. Both shoot awesome and accurate right around 2950 fps. However, one advantage to the Dasher is that it runs at lower pressure. In dry conditions the BRA can run Dasher speeds, but learned the hard way that in the rain that's not an ideal approach. It you want an all weather round that runs in super wet conditions you're probably going to want something like 2920-2930 or lower from a Dasher and 2900ish from the BRA with a 105.

 

[steve123]

6BRA is coming along nicely, shot several comps with it. It's pretty much like the Dasher, but with better fire forming. Both shoot awesome and accurate right around 2950 fps. However, one advantage to the Dasher is that it runs at lower pressure. In dry conditions the BRA can run Dasher speeds, but learned the hard way that in the rain that's not an ideal approach. It you want an all weather round that runs in super wet conditions you're probably going to want something like 2920-2930 or lower from a Dasher and 2900ish from the BRA with a 105.

Thanks for the report!

 

[D_TROS]

Because the vast majority of people shooting BR improved variants are shooting 2950

I disagree and agree. If you matched barrel lengths, you can and will still get that 250 fps difference. That and there are a lot of people in the 3020-3040 node, which is a very good one. It just so happens there is a good node at 2930 also and its easier to get in a short barrel with a larger case, ie some wildcat variant.

I like it. Recommend closing your eyes and picking any caliber cause it's the shooter not caliber... then admit you don't take your own advice

Well played sir

haha. the struggle is real. I shot the 6x47 for 5 years before chasing crap around. Wishing I never changed. One thing on that, I shot a short 22" barrel getting 2950 that the 6br varients are getting with a few less inches of barrel. Miss that short barrel.

Vibbert, or different Jake?

Vibbert's shooting a 6BRX at around 2890-2920 fps with a 105. He dabbled in the 6.5x47 for a while but has been BRX for at least a year now.

I stated not so clearly ha that he won the Snipers Hide Cup shooting a 6.5x47. I also said he shot his BRX last weekend in Nebraska.
DAbbled in the 6.5x47? I guess if winning major matches is dabbling, then that's one way to describe it. I wish I could dabble like that ha.
The pt I was making was several examples of shooters getting great results without following the trend (again what im unable to do...haha) and they get these results by unbelievable amounts of practice.

So to summarize, people don't want to hear real stories on how hard work is what pays off. they want the easy fixes/caliber that's going to get them "2% more hits" when just staying put is so much more valuable getting to know the kinks of a caliber and just plain practicing. Hence my wish of just staying on the 6x47 instead of chasing calibers. I switched from 308 (never shot a barrel) to 260 (2 barrels) to 6x47 (8 barrels) to 6.5GWI (4 barrels) 6brx (1 barrel) to 6br (my current and first barrel).

Having done that, and to answer the OP, I would recommend either 6br or 6x47. And prob the 6x47 as brass is easy to find.

Another thing not mentioned is the NEED for the calibers. In the last 2-4 ish years, matches have gone from field style to more positional PRS style, which has nearly mandated the switch from heavier calibers like the 6.5 to the small 6's that don't recoil. If there is, and I feel the switch in already underway as people are growing sick of the run and gun stuff, then you will see the heavier 6's and 6.5 return. FOr both style of matches, the 6x47 or the 6.5x47 will always be a player.

Good LUck!
DT

 

[bribri]

For those of you who run the straight 6br. What are you guys getting for velocity with the 105s and barrel length?

 

[dimar1492]

Could you explain what you mean by better fireforming? No jamming? Still headspaces off the shoulder and forms into a BRA to a sharper angle?

In a BRA the fire forming load will headspace from the neck/shoulder junction as the neck length stays the same so there is no need to jam the bullets. The shoulder is simply blown out to 40 degrees. The principle is the same that is used in the Ackley Improved cartridges and why it is safe to fire non improved cartridges through the chamber. The reason that this might be considered better fireforming is the the elimination of the risk of the case being pushed forward by the firing pin during ignition. This due to either insufficient neck tension and/or bullet jam to keep the case head against the bolts face. Thus causing excessive case head/web stretch.

 

[Assault116]

As info Having run through several BRX barrels and I know a lot of guys running Dashers and BRX's, I'd say the split is about 50/50 running 2950 ish with 105's and those like me and Dtros that run them at 3050 ish. My last 3 barrels 1 at 26" ran at 3030 and 2 28" barrels at 3040. My current tube is 24" and 2950 is about it without getting into pressure, it's just not a fast barrel and being a bit shorter doesn't help it's cause.

 

[Diver160651]

6BRA is coming along nicely, shot several comps with it. It's pretty much like the Dasher, but with better fire forming. Both shoot awesome and accurate right around 2950 fps. However, one advantage to the Dasher is that it runs at lower pressure. In dry conditions the BRA can run Dasher speeds, but learned the hard way that in the rain that's not an ideal approach. It you want an all weather round that runs in super wet conditions you're probably going to want something like 2920-2930 or lower from a Dasher and 2900ish from the BRA with a 105.

Great point. So many people think extremely hot days are the issue. They most likely haven’t shot enough to realize that rain/water on your rounds shrinks the effective chamber..

Big rains can be way more problematic than just reducing the visibility of targets..

Again good thing to ring up.

 

[jakelly]

Ya, ha ha! Beer math got me. thats embarrasing.....60 kernels

Now that you’re sober, you wanna take another whack at that .5 vs 1.5 mil @300 question?

 

[Sheldon N]

Could you explain what you mean by better fireforming? No jamming? Still headspaces off the shoulder and forms into a BRA to a sharper angle?

Standard ackley shoulder so don't need to jam bullets or create false shoulder. Brass forms more consistently, had very uniform final formed case lengths after first firing - to the point where I didn't even bother to trim brass afterward. Didn't lose any cases to split shoulders, where with the Dasher I seem to lose 1-2 per 100. Very accurate when fireforming, stupid one hole groups. Minor stuff, doesn't matter much once you've got the brass formed though.

 

[jakelly]

10.8>2

Yeah you’ll miss... badly.

You’ll miss five 4” targets lined up in a row with a 1 mil missed wind call.

 

[Assault116]

It's supposed to be 30mph for tomorrow's match at Raton, NM. You might as well shoot a 30-30; have about the same effects... In those conditions it isn't going to be the speed, it's going to be the absolute unpredictability. You could be holding .5mrad one shot and 1.5mrad the next.

We'll see, I'll be shooting a 6SLR 115 DTAC at 3025fps.

As info, that load is against the rules down there now. 3000 fps speed limit at that match now.

 

[RyanM]

I was out with mine today. Granted it still has less than 50 down the tube (26") I was getting 2,800 FPS. I can probably add a bit more powder and after speed up be close to 2,900 FPS or just under. I don't think I willl hot rod it though.

 

[Sheldon N]

I was out yesterday for barricade practice fireforming 100 rounds of Dasher brass on an older barrel. 105 RDF's at 2740 fps, super conservative load shooting just like a 6BR. The gun just hammered, was hitting everything from 6" targets at 525 out to 10" plate at 805 yards. You don't need velocity to be successful.

 

[nickw]

As info Having run through several BRX barrels and I know a lot of guys running Dashers and BRX's, I'd say the split is about 50/50 running 2950 ish with 105's and those like me and Dtros that run them at 3050 ish. My last 3 barrels 1 at 26" ran at 3030 and 2 28" barrels at 3040. My current tube is 24" and 2950 is about it without getting into pressure, it's just not a fast barrel and being a bit shorter doesn't help it's cause.

How many rounds are you getting on your BRX barrels before you toss them?

 

[steve123]

A month ago I got a 6mmBR prefit. My 6x47L barrel was at it's end (lost 77fps in the last month) and I hadn't tried a prefit yet, so here I am.

Just after I discovered the FPS had dropped, and then accounted for in the ballistic app, that 6x47l was still shooting well enough to get the 1st shot plus 2 more, all 3 shots required at the 14" 1195Y steel, portion of the stage! As well as performing decently on the rest of the stages that day. I'll definitely miss 6x47L! The barrel lasted about 1600 rounds.

I made a wrong bullet choice for the 6mmBR, lol, as you'll read here. https://www.snipershide.com/shooting/threads/6mm-br-loads.6895954/#post-7367225

Note the difference in BC comparing the 95TMK to the 90TGK, "especially" the difference in stepped BC's! Follow the links Codiekfx400 provided.

I'll be trying the 105 RDF/6mmBR next week and will report back on that thread.