What kind of tanks are those in Egypt ? Are they T-72s ? Did we sell them any of our Abrams tanks ?
Tanks in Egypt
- Thread starter Iron Worker
- Start date
Re: Tanks in Egypt
our government has traditionally given Egypt about 3 billion a year to buy American arms from American companies.
those are Abrams Tanks, and they also have F-16 fighter jets...
Your tax dollars at work
our government has traditionally given Egypt about 3 billion a year to buy American arms from American companies.
those are Abrams Tanks, and they also have F-16 fighter jets...
Your tax dollars at work
Re: Tanks in Egypt
Who is the largest majority of people in Egypt ? ( I think) but could be wrong . Is it Egyptians of the Sunni Muslim faith ?
& If the Muslim Brotherhood comes to power in Egypt, Giving the right for free vote to government representation . And since the voting majority of Egypt will then be Sunni Muslim, Is it not likely they will be eventually voted to ruling power over Egypt with there fundamentalist views ? . So I would guess YES .
.
Who is the largest majority of people in Egypt ? ( I think) but could be wrong . Is it Egyptians of the Sunni Muslim faith ?
& If the Muslim Brotherhood comes to power in Egypt, Giving the right for free vote to government representation . And since the voting majority of Egypt will then be Sunni Muslim, Is it not likely they will be eventually voted to ruling power over Egypt with there fundamentalist views ? . So I would guess YES .
.
Re: Tanks in Egypt
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Iron Worker</div><div class="ubbcode-body">So is the Muslim brotherhood going to use our stuff against us ? </div></div>
They could try, and if they did we would still whoop their ass like it was going out of style!!!!! Good thing for them we are friends!
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Iron Worker</div><div class="ubbcode-body">So is the Muslim brotherhood going to use our stuff against us ? </div></div>
They could try, and if they did we would still whoop their ass like it was going out of style!!!!! Good thing for them we are friends!
Re: Tanks in Egypt
I bet spare parts dry up long before the prospect of hostilities - know what I mean?
Good luck
I bet spare parts dry up long before the prospect of hostilities - know what I mean?
Good luck
Re: Tanks in Egypt
The tanks, while they are ours, are not the current generation and lack DU armor as well as some of the magical electronics. This is before the quality of the crews and training come into play.
Even if they were, tanks make excellent target practice for an airforce; something that Egypt does not have the ability to keep away.
The tanks, while they are ours, are not the current generation and lack DU armor as well as some of the magical electronics. This is before the quality of the crews and training come into play.
Even if they were, tanks make excellent target practice for an airforce; something that Egypt does not have the ability to keep away.
Re: Tanks in Egypt
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Falar</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Those Abrams are very stripped down. I think they even have diesel engines. </div></div>
I think all Abrams have a "diesel" engine per say. I was on the M1, M1A1, M1A2, and M1A2 SEP. Drive train was essentially the same with some updates.
Either way if your shocked that we have "sold" them to Egypt then you will be real shocked to learn we have passed on a couple to Iraq also. At this time they only have maybe half a platoons worth of the Abrams but they do have them. Give em a month or two and they will be broken down since these monkey's don’t have the mechanical inclination to support those beast...
BTW Egypt has had them since at least before 2000 timeframe. One of our Sgt. retired and took a gig there mentoring on them.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Falar</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Those Abrams are very stripped down. I think they even have diesel engines. </div></div>
I think all Abrams have a "diesel" engine per say. I was on the M1, M1A1, M1A2, and M1A2 SEP. Drive train was essentially the same with some updates.
Either way if your shocked that we have "sold" them to Egypt then you will be real shocked to learn we have passed on a couple to Iraq also. At this time they only have maybe half a platoons worth of the Abrams but they do have them. Give em a month or two and they will be broken down since these monkey's don’t have the mechanical inclination to support those beast...
BTW Egypt has had them since at least before 2000 timeframe. One of our Sgt. retired and took a gig there mentoring on them.
Re: Tanks in Egypt
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: aggiesig</div><div class="ubbcode-body">our government has traditionally given Egypt about 3 billion a year to buy American arms from American companies.
those are Abrams Tanks, and they also have F-16 fighter jets...
Your tax dollars at work </div></div>
It is remarkable what the government of a country that is 13-14 whatever it is now TRILLION dollars in debt can GIVE away!
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: aggiesig</div><div class="ubbcode-body">our government has traditionally given Egypt about 3 billion a year to buy American arms from American companies.
those are Abrams Tanks, and they also have F-16 fighter jets...
Your tax dollars at work </div></div>
It is remarkable what the government of a country that is 13-14 whatever it is now TRILLION dollars in debt can GIVE away!
Re: Tanks in Egypt
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Poke</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Falar</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Those Abrams are very stripped down. I think they even have diesel engines. </div></div>
I think all Abrams have a "diesel" engine per say. I was on the M1, M1A1, M1A2, and M1A2 SEP. Drive train was essentially the same with some updates.
Either way if your shocked that we have "sold" them to Egypt then you will be real shocked to learn we have passed on a couple to Iraq also. At this time they only have maybe half a platoons worth of the Abrams but they do have them. Give em a month or two and they will be broken down since these monkey's don’t have the mechanical inclination to support those beast...
BTW Egypt has had them since at least before 2000 timeframe. One of our Sgt. retired and took a gig there mentoring on them. </div></div>
Our Abrams tanks have a turbine engine which is why they have so much more power and speed than other tanks in the same weight class.
It is also the reason it gets .5 miles per gallon.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Poke</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Falar</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Those Abrams are very stripped down. I think they even have diesel engines. </div></div>
I think all Abrams have a "diesel" engine per say. I was on the M1, M1A1, M1A2, and M1A2 SEP. Drive train was essentially the same with some updates.
Either way if your shocked that we have "sold" them to Egypt then you will be real shocked to learn we have passed on a couple to Iraq also. At this time they only have maybe half a platoons worth of the Abrams but they do have them. Give em a month or two and they will be broken down since these monkey's don’t have the mechanical inclination to support those beast...
BTW Egypt has had them since at least before 2000 timeframe. One of our Sgt. retired and took a gig there mentoring on them. </div></div>
Our Abrams tanks have a turbine engine which is why they have so much more power and speed than other tanks in the same weight class.
It is also the reason it gets .5 miles per gallon.
Re: Tanks in Egypt
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Falar</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Poke</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Falar</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Those Abrams are very stripped down. I think they even have diesel engines. </div></div>
I think all Abrams have a "diesel" engine per say. I was on the M1, M1A1, M1A2, and M1A2 SEP. Drive train was essentially the same with some updates.
Either way if your shocked that we have "sold" them to Egypt then you will be real shocked to learn we have passed on a couple to Iraq also. At this time they only have maybe half a platoons worth of the Abrams but they do have them. Give em a month or two and they will be broken down since these monkey's don’t have the mechanical inclination to support those beast...
BTW Egypt has had them since at least before 2000 timeframe. One of our Sgt. retired and took a gig there mentoring on them. </div></div>
Our Abrams tanks have a turbine engine which is why they have so much more power and speed than other tanks in the same weight class.
It is also the reason it gets .5 miles per gallon. </div></div>
Or Abrams has it as does the ones we have given away. There is not a good way to stuff a traditional Diesel Piston engine into these things. The reason these things are so fast isnt all power, the transmission is a work of art.
We were able to get the M1A1 series up to 70 at Ft. Hood while prepping them to turn in so we could get the new M1A2 SEP. Some of the older guys would talk about trips to NTC and getting them up to 85 but turning was out of the question. The Abrams without a doubt is 70 tons of kick ass..
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Falar</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Poke</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Falar</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Those Abrams are very stripped down. I think they even have diesel engines. </div></div>
I think all Abrams have a "diesel" engine per say. I was on the M1, M1A1, M1A2, and M1A2 SEP. Drive train was essentially the same with some updates.
Either way if your shocked that we have "sold" them to Egypt then you will be real shocked to learn we have passed on a couple to Iraq also. At this time they only have maybe half a platoons worth of the Abrams but they do have them. Give em a month or two and they will be broken down since these monkey's don’t have the mechanical inclination to support those beast...
BTW Egypt has had them since at least before 2000 timeframe. One of our Sgt. retired and took a gig there mentoring on them. </div></div>
Our Abrams tanks have a turbine engine which is why they have so much more power and speed than other tanks in the same weight class.
It is also the reason it gets .5 miles per gallon. </div></div>
Or Abrams has it as does the ones we have given away. There is not a good way to stuff a traditional Diesel Piston engine into these things. The reason these things are so fast isnt all power, the transmission is a work of art.
We were able to get the M1A1 series up to 70 at Ft. Hood while prepping them to turn in so we could get the new M1A2 SEP. Some of the older guys would talk about trips to NTC and getting them up to 85 but turning was out of the question. The Abrams without a doubt is 70 tons of kick ass..
Re: Tanks in Egypt
With due respect, Mubarak has an insurrection on his hands and needs to step up to the plate and restore order to his nation.
If his restraint stems from pressure by our government, we are doing nobody any favors.
Better to fight a war than to fear a war. The need to do the right thing seldom comes at a convenient time. It has to happen, and sooner is better.
Greg
PS Mubarak just resigned, ceding power to the Military, which alludes to Mubarak's deputy as leader in charge. Reforms are promised.
Personally, I think this is disappointing and acknowledges mob rule. I also think that history's legacy of 'stolen revolutions' will soon confirm that the protesters have bought something far different from what they had intended.
With due respect, Mubarak has an insurrection on his hands and needs to step up to the plate and restore order to his nation.
If his restraint stems from pressure by our government, we are doing nobody any favors.
Better to fight a war than to fear a war. The need to do the right thing seldom comes at a convenient time. It has to happen, and sooner is better.
Greg
PS Mubarak just resigned, ceding power to the Military, which alludes to Mubarak's deputy as leader in charge. Reforms are promised.
Personally, I think this is disappointing and acknowledges mob rule. I also think that history's legacy of 'stolen revolutions' will soon confirm that the protesters have bought something far different from what they had intended.
Re: Tanks in Egypt
No worries Greg, I'm sure the Muslim Brotherhood will fill the void to do their part in this new "democratic" movement
At the end of the day, this thing will continue to bleed throughout the region and it won't end well for us.
No worries Greg, I'm sure the Muslim Brotherhood will fill the void to do their part in this new "democratic" movement
At the end of the day, this thing will continue to bleed throughout the region and it won't end well for us.
Re: Tanks in Egypt
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: garrett4</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I saw m60's and m1a Abrams tanks for sure </div></div>
Facgtoid:
Saudi Arabia and Egypt, both, got the first run of 250 M1A2's. Of course, without ballistic computers, blahblahblah.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: garrett4</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I saw m60's and m1a Abrams tanks for sure </div></div>
Facgtoid:
Saudi Arabia and Egypt, both, got the first run of 250 M1A2's. Of course, without ballistic computers, blahblahblah.
Re: Tanks in Egypt
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Poke</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Falar</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Poke</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Falar</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Those Abrams are very stripped down. I think they even have diesel engines. </div></div>
I think all Abrams have a "diesel" engine per say. I was on the M1, M1A1, M1A2, and M1A2 SEP. Drive train was essentially the same with some updates.
Either way if your shocked that we have "sold" them to Egypt then you will be real shocked to learn we have passed on a couple to Iraq also. At this time they only have maybe half a platoons worth of the Abrams but they do have them. Give em a month or two and they will be broken down since these monkey's don’t have the mechanical inclination to support those beast...
BTW Egypt has had them since at least before 2000 timeframe. One of our Sgt. retired and took a gig there mentoring on them. </div></div>
Our Abrams tanks have a turbine engine which is why they have so much more power and speed than other tanks in the same weight class.
It is also the reason it gets .5 miles per gallon. </div></div>
Or Abrams has it as does the ones we have given away. There is not a good way to stuff a traditional Diesel Piston engine into these things. The reason these things are so fast isnt all power, the transmission is a work of art.
We were able to get the M1A1 series up to 70 at Ft. Hood while prepping them to turn in so we could get the new M1A2 SEP. Some of the older guys would talk about trips to NTC and getting them up to 85 but turning was out of the question. The Abrams without a doubt is 70 tons of kick ass.. </div></div>
There's a reason the M1A1/2's/SEP's are governed via the DECU. The heat generated by the friction of 72 tons battle loaded creates, above 45 mph, will destroy the track/sprockets/hubs. It can do it, but not for long.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Poke</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Falar</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Poke</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Falar</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Those Abrams are very stripped down. I think they even have diesel engines. </div></div>
I think all Abrams have a "diesel" engine per say. I was on the M1, M1A1, M1A2, and M1A2 SEP. Drive train was essentially the same with some updates.
Either way if your shocked that we have "sold" them to Egypt then you will be real shocked to learn we have passed on a couple to Iraq also. At this time they only have maybe half a platoons worth of the Abrams but they do have them. Give em a month or two and they will be broken down since these monkey's don’t have the mechanical inclination to support those beast...
BTW Egypt has had them since at least before 2000 timeframe. One of our Sgt. retired and took a gig there mentoring on them. </div></div>
Our Abrams tanks have a turbine engine which is why they have so much more power and speed than other tanks in the same weight class.
It is also the reason it gets .5 miles per gallon. </div></div>
Or Abrams has it as does the ones we have given away. There is not a good way to stuff a traditional Diesel Piston engine into these things. The reason these things are so fast isnt all power, the transmission is a work of art.
We were able to get the M1A1 series up to 70 at Ft. Hood while prepping them to turn in so we could get the new M1A2 SEP. Some of the older guys would talk about trips to NTC and getting them up to 85 but turning was out of the question. The Abrams without a doubt is 70 tons of kick ass.. </div></div>
There's a reason the M1A1/2's/SEP's are governed via the DECU. The heat generated by the friction of 72 tons battle loaded creates, above 45 mph, will destroy the track/sprockets/hubs. It can do it, but not for long.
Re: Tanks in Egypt
Personally, I think our dealings with the region are based on wishful thinking and a refusal to accept that the area hasn't been a good place for American interests since the early 1950's.
The only thing we accomplish be postponing the inevitible is to guarantee that when it goes South for sure, it'll go South for good.
You can only put so much lipstick on the pig. Then the pig gets pissed and bites you. Bad.
The Western nations have been pampering a bunch of arrogant egotistical camel jockeys for far too long. When the arabs 'nationalized' the oil extraction infrastructure they could neither have established nor maintained on their own, the West simply caved to thuggery and thievery.
Teddy Roosevelt wouldn't have folded like that. He'd have kicked butt and settled their hash all the way back to the stone age, which wouldn't have been a very long way.
Someday, that chore will still need to be done.
I feel sorry for my descendants, because they'll be the ones doing the bleeding and the burying.
Until then, it's all a sham.
The 'civilized' world has this unreasonable fear of the label 'Imperialism'. In case nobody told the rest of us, Imperialism has been humanity's way of life for all but the past half century or so. As far as I can tell, we've been a whole lot worse off without it. Give the arabs their way, and it'll be back big time.
Greg
Personally, I think our dealings with the region are based on wishful thinking and a refusal to accept that the area hasn't been a good place for American interests since the early 1950's.
The only thing we accomplish be postponing the inevitible is to guarantee that when it goes South for sure, it'll go South for good.
You can only put so much lipstick on the pig. Then the pig gets pissed and bites you. Bad.
The Western nations have been pampering a bunch of arrogant egotistical camel jockeys for far too long. When the arabs 'nationalized' the oil extraction infrastructure they could neither have established nor maintained on their own, the West simply caved to thuggery and thievery.
Teddy Roosevelt wouldn't have folded like that. He'd have kicked butt and settled their hash all the way back to the stone age, which wouldn't have been a very long way.
Someday, that chore will still need to be done.
I feel sorry for my descendants, because they'll be the ones doing the bleeding and the burying.
Until then, it's all a sham.
The 'civilized' world has this unreasonable fear of the label 'Imperialism'. In case nobody told the rest of us, Imperialism has been humanity's way of life for all but the past half century or so. As far as I can tell, we've been a whole lot worse off without it. Give the arabs their way, and it'll be back big time.
Greg
Re: Tanks in Egypt
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Fritz24</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: aggiesig</div><div class="ubbcode-body">our government has traditionally given Egypt about 3 billion a year to buy American arms from American companies.
those are Abrams Tanks, and they also have F-16 fighter jets...
Your tax dollars at work </div></div>
It is remarkable what the government of a country that is 13-14 whatever it is now TRILLION dollars in debt can GIVE away!
</div></div>
+1, we are trillions in debt, but lets support approximately 1/3 of the cost of Egypts military budget, WTF. I could think of many things to do with that 2-3 billion dollars a year
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Fritz24</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: aggiesig</div><div class="ubbcode-body">our government has traditionally given Egypt about 3 billion a year to buy American arms from American companies.
those are Abrams Tanks, and they also have F-16 fighter jets...
Your tax dollars at work </div></div>
It is remarkable what the government of a country that is 13-14 whatever it is now TRILLION dollars in debt can GIVE away!
</div></div>
+1, we are trillions in debt, but lets support approximately 1/3 of the cost of Egypts military budget, WTF. I could think of many things to do with that 2-3 billion dollars a year
Re: Tanks in Egypt
For one thing, we could afford to kick Egypt's butt, and maybe a few others nearby as well. Set up the air plan, and it could be over and done with in less than a week. Start that ball rolling, and I think we'll be finding a bunch of other Western air forces following in our wake. I'd make it even odds Russia would join in with us, too. Truth be told, there's probably no better use for the nukes, and not even by a long shot.
I'm not talking about conquest, occupation, or some namby pamby nation building exercise; I'm talking about devastating their pseudo-aristocratic butts and chalking them off.
In the long run it may be a lot cheaper in dollars, and especially in American lives, to simply push the nuclear reset button and drill new wells once the glass paved parking lot has cooled down and hardened up nicely.
Far as I'm concerned this whole Middle East farce is a glaring lesson in the abject failure of Kumbaya Diplomacy.
Islam, oil, and nukes; a marriage made somewhere, but most certainly, not in Heaven... Time long past due to set things straight.
They say "Jihad". Fine, I say let's see 'em, and raise 'em one Crusade. Nuclear Crusade, what a concept...
I understand that this set of views is unconventional, unpopular, and probably more than a little bestial. I seriously doubt that any of it will ever actually ensue. I also firmly believe that history will bear me out.
Greg
For one thing, we could afford to kick Egypt's butt, and maybe a few others nearby as well. Set up the air plan, and it could be over and done with in less than a week. Start that ball rolling, and I think we'll be finding a bunch of other Western air forces following in our wake. I'd make it even odds Russia would join in with us, too. Truth be told, there's probably no better use for the nukes, and not even by a long shot.
I'm not talking about conquest, occupation, or some namby pamby nation building exercise; I'm talking about devastating their pseudo-aristocratic butts and chalking them off.
In the long run it may be a lot cheaper in dollars, and especially in American lives, to simply push the nuclear reset button and drill new wells once the glass paved parking lot has cooled down and hardened up nicely.
Far as I'm concerned this whole Middle East farce is a glaring lesson in the abject failure of Kumbaya Diplomacy.
Islam, oil, and nukes; a marriage made somewhere, but most certainly, not in Heaven... Time long past due to set things straight.
They say "Jihad". Fine, I say let's see 'em, and raise 'em one Crusade. Nuclear Crusade, what a concept...
I understand that this set of views is unconventional, unpopular, and probably more than a little bestial. I seriously doubt that any of it will ever actually ensue. I also firmly believe that history will bear me out.
Greg
Re: Tanks in Egypt
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Greg Langelius *</div><div class="ubbcode-body">For one thing, we could afford to kick Egypt's butt, and maybe a few others nearby as well. Set up the air plan, and it could be over and done with in less than a week. Start that ball rolling, and I think we'll be finding a bunch of other Western air forces following in our wake. I'd make it even odds Russia would join in with us, too. Truth be told, there's probably no better use for the nukes, and not even by a long shot.
I'm not talking about conquest, occupation, or some namby pamby nation building exercise; I'm talking about devastating their pseudo-aristocratic butts and chalking them off.
In the long run it may be a lot cheaper in dollars, and especially in American lives, to simply push the nuclear reset button and drill new wells once the glass paved parking lot has cooled down and hardened up nicely.
Far as I'm concerned this whole Middle East farce is a glaring lesson in the abject failure of Kumbaya Diplomacy.
Islam, oil, and nukes; a marriage made somewhere, but most certainly, not in Heaven... Time long past due to set things straight.
They say "Jihad". Fine, I say let's see 'em, and raise 'em one Crusade. Nuclear Crusade, what a concept...
I understand that this set of views is unconventional, unpopular, and probably more than a little bestial. I seriously doubt that any of it will ever actually ensue. I also firmly believe that history will bear me out.
Greg</div></div>
For someone who usually post such intelligent and well composed thoughts, I'm surprised at your opinions and ignorance on this subject. I would have thought the historian that you appear to be would have a clearer understanding of the issues. You make war & death sound cheap and I think that degrades the sacrifices that many have made to make the middle east a better place, albeit that it might take longer to transform than initially hoped.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Greg Langelius *</div><div class="ubbcode-body">For one thing, we could afford to kick Egypt's butt, and maybe a few others nearby as well. Set up the air plan, and it could be over and done with in less than a week. Start that ball rolling, and I think we'll be finding a bunch of other Western air forces following in our wake. I'd make it even odds Russia would join in with us, too. Truth be told, there's probably no better use for the nukes, and not even by a long shot.
I'm not talking about conquest, occupation, or some namby pamby nation building exercise; I'm talking about devastating their pseudo-aristocratic butts and chalking them off.
In the long run it may be a lot cheaper in dollars, and especially in American lives, to simply push the nuclear reset button and drill new wells once the glass paved parking lot has cooled down and hardened up nicely.
Far as I'm concerned this whole Middle East farce is a glaring lesson in the abject failure of Kumbaya Diplomacy.
Islam, oil, and nukes; a marriage made somewhere, but most certainly, not in Heaven... Time long past due to set things straight.
They say "Jihad". Fine, I say let's see 'em, and raise 'em one Crusade. Nuclear Crusade, what a concept...
I understand that this set of views is unconventional, unpopular, and probably more than a little bestial. I seriously doubt that any of it will ever actually ensue. I also firmly believe that history will bear me out.
Greg</div></div>
For someone who usually post such intelligent and well composed thoughts, I'm surprised at your opinions and ignorance on this subject. I would have thought the historian that you appear to be would have a clearer understanding of the issues. You make war & death sound cheap and I think that degrades the sacrifices that many have made to make the middle east a better place, albeit that it might take longer to transform than initially hoped.
Re: Tanks in Egypt
Agreed, some of THE most ignorant rants about jihad and crusade I've ever read.
But lets go back to 'restoring order' and 'bowing to mob rule'. Mubaruk is a tryant, a dictator and if he wasnt sucking from the US Taxpayer teat so heavily he'd be seen as another Hussien and be denounced for what he is.
The Chinese restored order in Tianamen square, do we salute that effort which killed around 400 people?
Bowing to the mob in one man's eye is listening to a long suffering will of the people to another. Least we forget when our mobs come out to demonstrate we salute democracy at work! It wasnt that long ago some hotheads spouted watering the tree of democracy and taking our country back while making pissy screaming rants in local precint meetings!
No demand to restore order then!
When it comes to the Middle East we care not for democracy but for stability and the flow of oil through US corporate hands. It is a wonder we are thought of as anything but hypocrites and abase worshipers of mammon.
In lands where rule is done by iron fist then it wont be the geek squad that brings an end to tryany. The Muslim brotherhood has spawned radicals in the face of petty tryants but in Eqypt this has changed. First to ASSume the Brotherhood will be in command is a far stretch. To claim it is the same as what spawned al-Qa'ida, remember Osama murdered his Brotherhood challengers, as is now in Eqypt is to not understand the very beginning of the Brotherhood or for that matter the desires of the Eqpytian young people.
But for some its easier to remain in a us vs them world where we never and they always.
Pax Americana
Agreed, some of THE most ignorant rants about jihad and crusade I've ever read.
But lets go back to 'restoring order' and 'bowing to mob rule'. Mubaruk is a tryant, a dictator and if he wasnt sucking from the US Taxpayer teat so heavily he'd be seen as another Hussien and be denounced for what he is.
The Chinese restored order in Tianamen square, do we salute that effort which killed around 400 people?
Bowing to the mob in one man's eye is listening to a long suffering will of the people to another. Least we forget when our mobs come out to demonstrate we salute democracy at work! It wasnt that long ago some hotheads spouted watering the tree of democracy and taking our country back while making pissy screaming rants in local precint meetings!
No demand to restore order then!
When it comes to the Middle East we care not for democracy but for stability and the flow of oil through US corporate hands. It is a wonder we are thought of as anything but hypocrites and abase worshipers of mammon.
In lands where rule is done by iron fist then it wont be the geek squad that brings an end to tryany. The Muslim brotherhood has spawned radicals in the face of petty tryants but in Eqypt this has changed. First to ASSume the Brotherhood will be in command is a far stretch. To claim it is the same as what spawned al-Qa'ida, remember Osama murdered his Brotherhood challengers, as is now in Eqypt is to not understand the very beginning of the Brotherhood or for that matter the desires of the Eqpytian young people.
But for some its easier to remain in a us vs them world where we never and they always.
Pax Americana
Re: Tanks in Egypt
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: notquiteright</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Agreed, some of THE most ignorant rants about jihad and crusade I've ever read.
But lets go back to 'restoring order' and 'bowing to mob rule'. Mubaruk is a tryant, a dictator and if he wasnt sucking from the US Taxpayer teat so heavily he'd be seen as another Hussien and be denounced for what he is.
The Chinese restored order in Tianamen square, do we salute that effort which killed around 400 people?
Bowing to the mob in one man's eye is listening to a long suffering will of the people to another. Least we forget when our mobs come out to demonstrate we salute democracy at work! It wasnt that long ago some hotheads spouted watering the tree of democracy and taking our country back while making pissy screaming rants in local precint meetings!
No demand to restore order then!
When it comes to the Middle East we care not for democracy but for stability and the flow of oil through US corporate hands. It is a wonder we are thought of as anything but hypocrites and abase worshipers of mammon.
In lands where rule is done by iron fist then it wont be the geek squad that brings an end to tryany. The Muslim brotherhood has spawned radicals in the face of petty tryants but in Eqypt this has changed. First to ASSume the Brotherhood will be in command is a far stretch. To claim it is the same as what spawned al-Qa'ida, remember Osama murdered his Brotherhood challengers, as is now in Eqypt is to not understand the very beginning of the Brotherhood or for that matter the desires of the Eqpytian young people.
But for some its easier to remain in a us vs them world where we never and they always.
Pax Americana </div></div>
Sir - with all do respect I would urge you to stand down from making accusations and referencing the word ASS with Greg at any point in your commentary. I am not standing up for him as his point is spot on. In the interest of shooting and this website I will refrain from any political commentary but I urge you to do a bit of research before jumping on the "democracy is great - Free Egypt" bandwagon....
By the way MSN is reporting its the anniversary of the Shah's departure from IRAN..and we all see how great that "movement" turned out....
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: notquiteright</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Agreed, some of THE most ignorant rants about jihad and crusade I've ever read.
But lets go back to 'restoring order' and 'bowing to mob rule'. Mubaruk is a tryant, a dictator and if he wasnt sucking from the US Taxpayer teat so heavily he'd be seen as another Hussien and be denounced for what he is.
The Chinese restored order in Tianamen square, do we salute that effort which killed around 400 people?
Bowing to the mob in one man's eye is listening to a long suffering will of the people to another. Least we forget when our mobs come out to demonstrate we salute democracy at work! It wasnt that long ago some hotheads spouted watering the tree of democracy and taking our country back while making pissy screaming rants in local precint meetings!
No demand to restore order then!
When it comes to the Middle East we care not for democracy but for stability and the flow of oil through US corporate hands. It is a wonder we are thought of as anything but hypocrites and abase worshipers of mammon.
In lands where rule is done by iron fist then it wont be the geek squad that brings an end to tryany. The Muslim brotherhood has spawned radicals in the face of petty tryants but in Eqypt this has changed. First to ASSume the Brotherhood will be in command is a far stretch. To claim it is the same as what spawned al-Qa'ida, remember Osama murdered his Brotherhood challengers, as is now in Eqypt is to not understand the very beginning of the Brotherhood or for that matter the desires of the Eqpytian young people.
But for some its easier to remain in a us vs them world where we never and they always.
Pax Americana </div></div>
Sir - with all do respect I would urge you to stand down from making accusations and referencing the word ASS with Greg at any point in your commentary. I am not standing up for him as his point is spot on. In the interest of shooting and this website I will refrain from any political commentary but I urge you to do a bit of research before jumping on the "democracy is great - Free Egypt" bandwagon....
By the way MSN is reporting its the anniversary of the Shah's departure from IRAN..and we all see how great that "movement" turned out....
Re: Tanks in Egypt
Well, I see it as a matter of opinion, and I freely accept your disagreement.
I can't say what either of your experience with war is. I can only say that as one who has been there, I do not value death and war cheaply. From my vantage, I look at what the cost has been so far, and wonder what more than the status quo has been bought by the current tally. To my mind, little could cheapen the cost more.
Succinctly, nothing cheapens the sacrifice more than for it to be made in the purchase of as little as ours has.
Nobody despises war more then those who have had to fight it.
Nobody prefers peace more than those who have defended it.
Nobody fears war less when alternatively confronted with consequences of vacillation.
War has a real and necessary place in human discourse.
I believe I hinted at the allegory in my final sentences. It may be as much a proper a lesson to denounce my views as support them.
I could take the cheap shot and say that your disagreement is high praise indeed, but that simply isn't my view. I value your response and count it as least as valid as my own views. My goal is not so much to make a point, any point, as to invite discourse and debate.
I harbor no certainty of validity, I merely impart what I believe is a view that political correctness has proscribed. Right or wrong, it needs to be part of the discourse.
I wrote no history, and am hence no historian. I am merely history's witness, and make commment within its context upon contemporary events. Ignorant, perhaps; but no more than most, I wager.
I will not fire a parting shot and then claim to be exiting the fray. But I am done for this day.
Greg
Well, I see it as a matter of opinion, and I freely accept your disagreement.
I can't say what either of your experience with war is. I can only say that as one who has been there, I do not value death and war cheaply. From my vantage, I look at what the cost has been so far, and wonder what more than the status quo has been bought by the current tally. To my mind, little could cheapen the cost more.
Succinctly, nothing cheapens the sacrifice more than for it to be made in the purchase of as little as ours has.
Nobody despises war more then those who have had to fight it.
Nobody prefers peace more than those who have defended it.
Nobody fears war less when alternatively confronted with consequences of vacillation.
War has a real and necessary place in human discourse.
I believe I hinted at the allegory in my final sentences. It may be as much a proper a lesson to denounce my views as support them.
I could take the cheap shot and say that your disagreement is high praise indeed, but that simply isn't my view. I value your response and count it as least as valid as my own views. My goal is not so much to make a point, any point, as to invite discourse and debate.
I harbor no certainty of validity, I merely impart what I believe is a view that political correctness has proscribed. Right or wrong, it needs to be part of the discourse.
I wrote no history, and am hence no historian. I am merely history's witness, and make commment within its context upon contemporary events. Ignorant, perhaps; but no more than most, I wager.
I will not fire a parting shot and then claim to be exiting the fray. But I am done for this day.
Greg
Re: Tanks in Egypt
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: notquiteright</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Agreed, some of THE most ignorant rants about jihad and crusade I've ever read.
But lets go back to 'restoring order' and 'bowing to mob rule'. Mubaruk is a tryant, a dictator and if he wasnt sucking from the US Taxpayer teat so heavily he'd be seen as another Hussien and be denounced for what he is.
The Chinese restored order in Tianamen square, do we salute that effort which killed around 400 people?
Bowing to the mob in one man's eye is listening to a long suffering will of the people to another. Least we forget when our mobs come out to demonstrate we salute democracy at work! It wasnt that long ago some hotheads spouted watering the tree of democracy and taking our country back while making pissy screaming rants in local precint meetings!
No demand to restore order then!
When it comes to the Middle East we care not for democracy but for stability and the flow of oil through US corporate hands. It is a wonder we are thought of as anything but hypocrites and abase worshipers of mammon.
In lands where rule is done by iron fist then it wont be the geek squad that brings an end to tryany. The Muslim brotherhood has spawned radicals in the face of petty tryants but in Eqypt this has changed. First to ASSume the Brotherhood will be in command is a far stretch. To claim it is the same as what spawned al-Qa'ida, remember Osama murdered his Brotherhood challengers, as is now in Eqypt is to not understand the very beginning of the Brotherhood or for that matter the desires of the Eqpytian young people.
But for some its easier to remain in a us vs them world where we never and they always.
Pax Americana </div></div>
Quite right, notquiteright. that does soundout of nature for a usually thought out GL. I think its time for the western world to do some serious thinking, and some serious prayer.
First of all its "their country", and our lust for foriegn oil DOES NOT give us the right to "glass'em over". Power doe not equal right.
If this thing goes well, if Egypt gets democracy, it could well set a precedent in the mideast where lots of people are crying for the freedoms we have but are just afraid to do anything. This could spur them on and make the monarchies and dictators realize they can be toppled.
If it goes badly then it could set an opposite precedent and the redical conservatives will bring in more Islamic Law and that could end up in wasteing all the lives that have been spent to bring the small amout of progress to the area.
If the uprising is brutally repressed it will push more people toward fundamentalism, just as a way to hate the oppressor who they identify withthe west.
It serves us best to see democracy come.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: notquiteright</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Agreed, some of THE most ignorant rants about jihad and crusade I've ever read.
But lets go back to 'restoring order' and 'bowing to mob rule'. Mubaruk is a tryant, a dictator and if he wasnt sucking from the US Taxpayer teat so heavily he'd be seen as another Hussien and be denounced for what he is.
The Chinese restored order in Tianamen square, do we salute that effort which killed around 400 people?
Bowing to the mob in one man's eye is listening to a long suffering will of the people to another. Least we forget when our mobs come out to demonstrate we salute democracy at work! It wasnt that long ago some hotheads spouted watering the tree of democracy and taking our country back while making pissy screaming rants in local precint meetings!
No demand to restore order then!
When it comes to the Middle East we care not for democracy but for stability and the flow of oil through US corporate hands. It is a wonder we are thought of as anything but hypocrites and abase worshipers of mammon.
In lands where rule is done by iron fist then it wont be the geek squad that brings an end to tryany. The Muslim brotherhood has spawned radicals in the face of petty tryants but in Eqypt this has changed. First to ASSume the Brotherhood will be in command is a far stretch. To claim it is the same as what spawned al-Qa'ida, remember Osama murdered his Brotherhood challengers, as is now in Eqypt is to not understand the very beginning of the Brotherhood or for that matter the desires of the Eqpytian young people.
But for some its easier to remain in a us vs them world where we never and they always.
Pax Americana </div></div>
Quite right, notquiteright. that does soundout of nature for a usually thought out GL. I think its time for the western world to do some serious thinking, and some serious prayer.
First of all its "their country", and our lust for foriegn oil DOES NOT give us the right to "glass'em over". Power doe not equal right.
If this thing goes well, if Egypt gets democracy, it could well set a precedent in the mideast where lots of people are crying for the freedoms we have but are just afraid to do anything. This could spur them on and make the monarchies and dictators realize they can be toppled.
If it goes badly then it could set an opposite precedent and the redical conservatives will bring in more Islamic Law and that could end up in wasteing all the lives that have been spent to bring the small amout of progress to the area.
If the uprising is brutally repressed it will push more people toward fundamentalism, just as a way to hate the oppressor who they identify withthe west.
It serves us best to see democracy come.
Re: Tanks in Egypt
Well now that this thread had gone THAT way let me post my opinions on this. As a veteran of Aghanistan and Iraq, I say fuck the whole region. There is no hope, you simply cannot help those that will not help themselves. I don't want to spend one more tax dollar there and would prefer to sit back and watch and laugh as the pieces of shit kill each other and coup after coup takes place.
A fundamentalist regime WILL come into power there, I agree with that. But lets not pretend that what was just in power was a democracy. Everytime they throw off a dictator in that region democracy is not the result. Theocracy is.
Well now that this thread had gone THAT way let me post my opinions on this. As a veteran of Aghanistan and Iraq, I say fuck the whole region. There is no hope, you simply cannot help those that will not help themselves. I don't want to spend one more tax dollar there and would prefer to sit back and watch and laugh as the pieces of shit kill each other and coup after coup takes place.
A fundamentalist regime WILL come into power there, I agree with that. But lets not pretend that what was just in power was a democracy. Everytime they throw off a dictator in that region democracy is not the result. Theocracy is.
Re: Tanks in Egypt
Here are a few bits of data that may alter the rhetorical nonsense getting thrown about on this thread. The Muslim Brotherhood is supported by perhaps 25% of the Egyptian population, but interestingly not the majority of people who were marching in the streets. The Egyptian uprising came mostly from unemployed young men who were sick of watching a kleptocracy waste their nation's status as the leader of the Arab world. Tunisia's uprising against its own kleptocracy shamed many Egyptians who always believed they were the de facto leaders of the Arab world. These factors, not some radical Islamic movement, were the main catalysts to the Egyptian revolt.
Secondly, any of you complaining about the money and weapons we give to Egypt need to remember that the money is often TIED to the weapons they buy. We essentially give them the cash to buy tanks, planes, and parts from US companies. This isn't charity, it's the military industrial complex at its finest (Eisenhower is rolling over in his grave). The US exports more weapons systems worldwide than any other nation, including the tear gas canisters used on the protesters in Tunisia and Egypt, and the missiles Israel shoots into Gaza and the West Bank (Israel receives more foreign aid than any other nation). While I know it's easy to thump your chest and say we should stop giving money to those nations, is it just as easy to go to the American factories manufacturing those weapon systems and lay those workers off? Think about the second and third order effects of your proposals. The nations we give money to aren't buying Abrams tanks from China.
The big issue is this, if geopolitics and international relations aren't your strong suits, withhold judgment until you find out more about the history and issues involved. I can't believe that there aren't more red blooded Americans looking at the Egyptians marching in the streets as people who would have looked up to our own Founding Fathers. Bottom line, it's their country and their freedom. Thomas Jefferson said it best:
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. That to secure these rights, governments are instituted among men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed. That whenever any form of government becomes destructive to these ends, it is the right of the people to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their safety and happiness.
Those words are damn near holy writ to me, and as I see it, Jefferson would raise a glass tonight to the Egyptian people.
Here are a few bits of data that may alter the rhetorical nonsense getting thrown about on this thread. The Muslim Brotherhood is supported by perhaps 25% of the Egyptian population, but interestingly not the majority of people who were marching in the streets. The Egyptian uprising came mostly from unemployed young men who were sick of watching a kleptocracy waste their nation's status as the leader of the Arab world. Tunisia's uprising against its own kleptocracy shamed many Egyptians who always believed they were the de facto leaders of the Arab world. These factors, not some radical Islamic movement, were the main catalysts to the Egyptian revolt.
Secondly, any of you complaining about the money and weapons we give to Egypt need to remember that the money is often TIED to the weapons they buy. We essentially give them the cash to buy tanks, planes, and parts from US companies. This isn't charity, it's the military industrial complex at its finest (Eisenhower is rolling over in his grave). The US exports more weapons systems worldwide than any other nation, including the tear gas canisters used on the protesters in Tunisia and Egypt, and the missiles Israel shoots into Gaza and the West Bank (Israel receives more foreign aid than any other nation). While I know it's easy to thump your chest and say we should stop giving money to those nations, is it just as easy to go to the American factories manufacturing those weapon systems and lay those workers off? Think about the second and third order effects of your proposals. The nations we give money to aren't buying Abrams tanks from China.
The big issue is this, if geopolitics and international relations aren't your strong suits, withhold judgment until you find out more about the history and issues involved. I can't believe that there aren't more red blooded Americans looking at the Egyptians marching in the streets as people who would have looked up to our own Founding Fathers. Bottom line, it's their country and their freedom. Thomas Jefferson said it best:
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. That to secure these rights, governments are instituted among men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed. That whenever any form of government becomes destructive to these ends, it is the right of the people to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their safety and happiness.
Those words are damn near holy writ to me, and as I see it, Jefferson would raise a glass tonight to the Egyptian people.
Re: Tanks in Egypt
"(Israel receives more foreign aid than any other nation)."
Actully, ZL, the US gives more to Israel than we give to everrybody else COMBINED. Ever wonder WHY?
"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. That to secure these rights, governments are instituted among men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed. That whenever any form of government becomes destructive to these ends, it is the right of the people to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their safety and happiness.
Those words are damn near holy writ to me, and as I see it, Jefferson would raise a glass tonight to the Egyptian people."
As a Virginian, from Charlottesville, home of TJ (not to mention Madison and Monroe, and just up the road from Washington's home) I agree. That is near holy writ, and the boys would be whoopin it up for the Egyptians. Let Freedom Ring. Hallelujah.
Just hope they can hold it together and have a democracy, not a fucktocracy.
"(Israel receives more foreign aid than any other nation)."
Actully, ZL, the US gives more to Israel than we give to everrybody else COMBINED. Ever wonder WHY?
"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. That to secure these rights, governments are instituted among men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed. That whenever any form of government becomes destructive to these ends, it is the right of the people to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their safety and happiness.
Those words are damn near holy writ to me, and as I see it, Jefferson would raise a glass tonight to the Egyptian people."
As a Virginian, from Charlottesville, home of TJ (not to mention Madison and Monroe, and just up the road from Washington's home) I agree. That is near holy writ, and the boys would be whoopin it up for the Egyptians. Let Freedom Ring. Hallelujah.
Just hope they can hold it together and have a democracy, not a fucktocracy.
Re: Tanks in Egypt
Good for you. All of you. At least we're talking about it instead of simmering in our own juices over these matters.
Am I wrong? Possibly, maybe even probably. But my opinion isn't going away, and I sincerely believe that for each one who echoes my view, ten, maybe a hundred here share it in silence. As for who's disagreeing, many could have named them before they uttered a word. No harm and be that as it may, The 'Hide responds as expected. I welcome it, and that might be a lesson for some in this discourse. Imagine that, <span style="font-style: italic">me</span> advocating diverse views. Whoda thunk it?
In any case I think it needed to be said, I said it, and I don't really believe I need to harp on it.
I'll say this also.
When you look at the <span style="font-style: italic">most</span> outrageous despots of the last century, remember that they were brought to us by free and democratic elections. Just because the people have spoken does not automatically indicate rectitude and just governance. Often, maybe usually not, in fact.
I would be most interested to know just who was behind the uprising's instigation, and just how much the contemporary political currents in Pakistan, Iran, and Iraq are figuring into all of this.
Afghanistan? That's the place where the various world powers occasionally go to learn humility, abject frustration, and to kill off their brightest young citizens. A monument to blind altruism. Nothing good comes out of there. Never has.
I don't care to digress into personalizations, characterizations, and catfights. My say is said, and I'd really rather listen to what others have to say now.
If it's permitted.
Greg
Good for you. All of you. At least we're talking about it instead of simmering in our own juices over these matters.
Am I wrong? Possibly, maybe even probably. But my opinion isn't going away, and I sincerely believe that for each one who echoes my view, ten, maybe a hundred here share it in silence. As for who's disagreeing, many could have named them before they uttered a word. No harm and be that as it may, The 'Hide responds as expected. I welcome it, and that might be a lesson for some in this discourse. Imagine that, <span style="font-style: italic">me</span> advocating diverse views. Whoda thunk it?
In any case I think it needed to be said, I said it, and I don't really believe I need to harp on it.
I'll say this also.
When you look at the <span style="font-style: italic">most</span> outrageous despots of the last century, remember that they were brought to us by free and democratic elections. Just because the people have spoken does not automatically indicate rectitude and just governance. Often, maybe usually not, in fact.
I would be most interested to know just who was behind the uprising's instigation, and just how much the contemporary political currents in Pakistan, Iran, and Iraq are figuring into all of this.
Afghanistan? That's the place where the various world powers occasionally go to learn humility, abject frustration, and to kill off their brightest young citizens. A monument to blind altruism. Nothing good comes out of there. Never has.
I don't care to digress into personalizations, characterizations, and catfights. My say is said, and I'd really rather listen to what others have to say now.
If it's permitted.
Greg
Re: Tanks in Egypt
I am with Greg and Falar on this one.
Egypt is not ready for any form of stable democracy (read constitutional or parliamentary republic) as we know it. Mob rule will ensue almost ensuring an Islamic state down the road. Then we wind up with a second Iran.
Mubarack was a dictator but he was our dictator. The power vacuum that ensues after his departure destabilizes the entire region. I only hope that the military restores order and maintains secular control of the country.
That said, God bless the Egyptian people, they are in for some hard times ahead either way.
I am with Greg and Falar on this one.
Egypt is not ready for any form of stable democracy (read constitutional or parliamentary republic) as we know it. Mob rule will ensue almost ensuring an Islamic state down the road. Then we wind up with a second Iran.
Mubarack was a dictator but he was our dictator. The power vacuum that ensues after his departure destabilizes the entire region. I only hope that the military restores order and maintains secular control of the country.
That said, God bless the Egyptian people, they are in for some hard times ahead either way.
Re: Tanks in Egypt
I think something else is a worse destabilizer.
Our failure to back an ally is going to have all the regimes in the region looking askance at the validity of American assurances of support. And rightly so. Who stands for little will fall for most anything, and right now, that's our stance. I'm not proud of it.
Reality has a nasty habit of making liars of pundits. I'm no exception. I would be arrogant and stupid to declare any insight into the future. But I think I can say without reservation that it's not going to improve for our interests, and soon enough, the gloves will come off.
This is not over. I don't think it's even fairly started, in the truer sense. I don't welcome it but I do take some confidence that the farce is finally wearing thin and the underlying issues are finally coming to light. Maybe someone will actually address them for a change.
I sure hope so, the steady diet of Kumbaya hypocrisy is making me sick.
I think the region will benefit in the long run. In the meantime, I agree, the people of Egypt and the wider region are in for unrest and hardship, and I'd have to be a brazen bastich not to feel for them. But ultimately, peoples end up with the governments they deserve, and their continuance represents a majority tolerance of things they outwardly despise, and inwardly cower before.
We won't prosper there. But we're sleeping in the the bed of our own making. My country right or wrong and right now I think less right than the latter. Our entire policy toward the region is in flux. A lot of axes are being ground, and we are about to find out what happens when you hold dogs at bay for too long.
Nationalist enmities are kinda like forest fires. When you suppress them, all they do is grow bigger in the long run. We're in for a doozie, and we have ourselves to blame for what follows. It's not like we run distant second or third when it comes down to who's been doing the most intervention in the region.
Good grief, I really do need to lay this topic down. I'm choosing to take a breather before somebody drops that hammer for me.
Greg
I think something else is a worse destabilizer.
Our failure to back an ally is going to have all the regimes in the region looking askance at the validity of American assurances of support. And rightly so. Who stands for little will fall for most anything, and right now, that's our stance. I'm not proud of it.
Reality has a nasty habit of making liars of pundits. I'm no exception. I would be arrogant and stupid to declare any insight into the future. But I think I can say without reservation that it's not going to improve for our interests, and soon enough, the gloves will come off.
This is not over. I don't think it's even fairly started, in the truer sense. I don't welcome it but I do take some confidence that the farce is finally wearing thin and the underlying issues are finally coming to light. Maybe someone will actually address them for a change.
I sure hope so, the steady diet of Kumbaya hypocrisy is making me sick.
I think the region will benefit in the long run. In the meantime, I agree, the people of Egypt and the wider region are in for unrest and hardship, and I'd have to be a brazen bastich not to feel for them. But ultimately, peoples end up with the governments they deserve, and their continuance represents a majority tolerance of things they outwardly despise, and inwardly cower before.
We won't prosper there. But we're sleeping in the the bed of our own making. My country right or wrong and right now I think less right than the latter. Our entire policy toward the region is in flux. A lot of axes are being ground, and we are about to find out what happens when you hold dogs at bay for too long.
Nationalist enmities are kinda like forest fires. When you suppress them, all they do is grow bigger in the long run. We're in for a doozie, and we have ourselves to blame for what follows. It's not like we run distant second or third when it comes down to who's been doing the most intervention in the region.
Good grief, I really do need to lay this topic down. I'm choosing to take a breather before somebody drops that hammer for me.
Greg
Re: Tanks in Egypt
Overarching statements like "Egypt is not ready for any form of stable democracy" is not only presumptive, it's down right colonial. Put on a red coat and have a nice glass of wine with Cornwallis, because that's precisely what the British said about the United States in 1776. BUT... it took us another 11 years to get the Constitution written and ratified. Egypt's been around in some form for about 5000 years, give them a little time to make this work. It took some of the most brilliant men in modern history eleven years to get our nation up and running.
Greg's general point of being disloyal to an ally has its merits. I'd say that loyalty is good, provided the leader rules with the consent of his people, which Mubarak obviously did not. The US has a history of backing despots for our own geopolitical gain; hell, we were allied with Stalin during World War II. I don't agree at all with the way the Egyptian uprising has been handled by the US, but at least we didn't lay the lessons of our own democracy aside back and Mubarak just for the sake of stability. Despots don't last, they can't last, and it behooves us to be on the right side of history. Frankly, we almost blew it with our tepid support of the Egyptian people.
Finally, I do disagree with the statement: "When you look at the most outrageous despots of the last century, remember that they were brought to us by free and democratic elections." I assume this in reference to Hitler. While the Nazis did take power through elections, their rise to power can be attributed to the conditions of the Treaty of Versailles and the Nazi's penchant for political violence as it is to the institution of democracy itself. Here are my examples to the contrary:
Josef Stalin came to power gradually within the Soviet ruling elite, mainly by having success militarily, and once Lenin suffered his stroke, slowly replacing Lenin's supporters within his own. By the end of his carnage, Stalin's reign resulted directly and indirectly with the deaths of 10-20 million lives. No universal democratic election here.
Mao Tse-tung's rise to power took years to evolve. Mao consolidated power largely through various small military campaigns coupled with shrewd political strategy within the CCP. When China became a nation in 1949, Mao had already spent years as the head of the CCP through its resistance to the Japanese in WWII and to the Kuomintang thereafter. Once again, no democratic election. By the end of Mao's murderous reign, historians estimate 40 million were killed directly or through various policies relating to Mao's Great Leap Forward or The Cultural Revolution.
The point is that none of us know how Egypt will turn out, which the wise among us acknowledge. Given that fact, I'd rather pay homage to our Founding Fathers and the ideals they championed than take a cynical, colonial view of the rest of world. It's time for the US to be a little less egocentric in international relations. Our self-serving policies have put us into our current precarious international positions precisely because we have no crystal ball, and we sacrifice the long-term good for the short-term expedient. That's always bad policy. While I certainly want the US to always be on top, we've shown a knack for getting geopolitics wrong.
Overarching statements like "Egypt is not ready for any form of stable democracy" is not only presumptive, it's down right colonial. Put on a red coat and have a nice glass of wine with Cornwallis, because that's precisely what the British said about the United States in 1776. BUT... it took us another 11 years to get the Constitution written and ratified. Egypt's been around in some form for about 5000 years, give them a little time to make this work. It took some of the most brilliant men in modern history eleven years to get our nation up and running.
Greg's general point of being disloyal to an ally has its merits. I'd say that loyalty is good, provided the leader rules with the consent of his people, which Mubarak obviously did not. The US has a history of backing despots for our own geopolitical gain; hell, we were allied with Stalin during World War II. I don't agree at all with the way the Egyptian uprising has been handled by the US, but at least we didn't lay the lessons of our own democracy aside back and Mubarak just for the sake of stability. Despots don't last, they can't last, and it behooves us to be on the right side of history. Frankly, we almost blew it with our tepid support of the Egyptian people.
Finally, I do disagree with the statement: "When you look at the most outrageous despots of the last century, remember that they were brought to us by free and democratic elections." I assume this in reference to Hitler. While the Nazis did take power through elections, their rise to power can be attributed to the conditions of the Treaty of Versailles and the Nazi's penchant for political violence as it is to the institution of democracy itself. Here are my examples to the contrary:
Josef Stalin came to power gradually within the Soviet ruling elite, mainly by having success militarily, and once Lenin suffered his stroke, slowly replacing Lenin's supporters within his own. By the end of his carnage, Stalin's reign resulted directly and indirectly with the deaths of 10-20 million lives. No universal democratic election here.
Mao Tse-tung's rise to power took years to evolve. Mao consolidated power largely through various small military campaigns coupled with shrewd political strategy within the CCP. When China became a nation in 1949, Mao had already spent years as the head of the CCP through its resistance to the Japanese in WWII and to the Kuomintang thereafter. Once again, no democratic election. By the end of Mao's murderous reign, historians estimate 40 million were killed directly or through various policies relating to Mao's Great Leap Forward or The Cultural Revolution.
The point is that none of us know how Egypt will turn out, which the wise among us acknowledge. Given that fact, I'd rather pay homage to our Founding Fathers and the ideals they championed than take a cynical, colonial view of the rest of world. It's time for the US to be a little less egocentric in international relations. Our self-serving policies have put us into our current precarious international positions precisely because we have no crystal ball, and we sacrifice the long-term good for the short-term expedient. That's always bad policy. While I certainly want the US to always be on top, we've shown a knack for getting geopolitics wrong.
Re: Tanks in Egypt
It is interesting to hear alot of the colonial racism and cold war justifications still used.
A witness to history can bear false witness if they allow biase and self interest to color the comments. That 100 may also do so doesnt add any wieght to the argument. Prior to WWII most Americans thought those comical Japanese couldnt fly an airplane. Pearl Harbor changed that.
A lack of history can see the Middle East as incapable of growing democracy. Iran, scourge of our collective rants, HAD a blossoming democracy after WWII. The Western Powers destroyed it to prevent Iranian oil royalties from rising to the same level the Saudis were recieving. Saudi Arbia, yet another great bastion of democracy! We promoted a dynasty of exactly one generation to run Iran and we poured billions in to help suppress the will of the people until it was a powder keg.
Most noble of us.
Since then we have been far more interested in stability over messy democracy. We wrap our actions in fine words about the will of the people but as Chile found out, we still expect a final say in that will!
As for what 'instigates' this current wave of populist unrest through the Muslim world, (using the word instigates shows a biase, we didnt use it when the Warsaw Pact rose in civic rebellion) I'd say its the reform many smug pundits have asked for in their rants labelling Islam as a repressor of democracy.
Like the East Germans rising up 'to tear down this wall' as the hated Border Guards stood by so too the Tunisians and Eqyptians are rising up.
Perhaps its time to put Kipling down, we have borne the White Man's Burden long enough.
Wait that would mean gas rising in price as the staggering bribes would have to be spread out to help the nation being sucked dry rather than keep some petty dictators slathered in French wine and East European sex slaves.
It is interesting to hear alot of the colonial racism and cold war justifications still used.
A witness to history can bear false witness if they allow biase and self interest to color the comments. That 100 may also do so doesnt add any wieght to the argument. Prior to WWII most Americans thought those comical Japanese couldnt fly an airplane. Pearl Harbor changed that.
A lack of history can see the Middle East as incapable of growing democracy. Iran, scourge of our collective rants, HAD a blossoming democracy after WWII. The Western Powers destroyed it to prevent Iranian oil royalties from rising to the same level the Saudis were recieving. Saudi Arbia, yet another great bastion of democracy! We promoted a dynasty of exactly one generation to run Iran and we poured billions in to help suppress the will of the people until it was a powder keg.
Most noble of us.
Since then we have been far more interested in stability over messy democracy. We wrap our actions in fine words about the will of the people but as Chile found out, we still expect a final say in that will!
As for what 'instigates' this current wave of populist unrest through the Muslim world, (using the word instigates shows a biase, we didnt use it when the Warsaw Pact rose in civic rebellion) I'd say its the reform many smug pundits have asked for in their rants labelling Islam as a repressor of democracy.
Like the East Germans rising up 'to tear down this wall' as the hated Border Guards stood by so too the Tunisians and Eqyptians are rising up.
Perhaps its time to put Kipling down, we have borne the White Man's Burden long enough.
Wait that would mean gas rising in price as the staggering bribes would have to be spread out to help the nation being sucked dry rather than keep some petty dictators slathered in French wine and East European sex slaves.
Re: Tanks in Egypt
When i used to live in Cairo, the people adored their leader. He led their country to the fore of the region and most were very proud and happy with him. Sure, times change and opinions have also it seems.
I would strongly urge Egyptians to look over the water to Turkey. They've had democracy for almost 100-yrs, gave women the vote long before most nations in Europe including the UK and most importantly they are a secular political system with over 95% of the population being Muslim and the current government being led by the Islamic Party - with little or no negative implications for the west. Nobody there cares if you are a jew, christian or full-on muslim. They are one of the core members of Nato and manage to bridge the east/west divide without too much trouble. We should be investing more in their model of democracy and promoting it to those looking for life after dictatorship.
Go back to WMD and Iraq...Turkey gave itself a free vote on whether to join the war or not. I don't recall too many western nations having a free parliamentary vote on the subject...sometimes we are a little arrogant to think our model of democracy is the best and only way forward and for sure we are too blind to recognize that a democratic muslim state led by an Islamic Party is already one of our greatest and longest serving allies.
When i used to live in Cairo, the people adored their leader. He led their country to the fore of the region and most were very proud and happy with him. Sure, times change and opinions have also it seems.
I would strongly urge Egyptians to look over the water to Turkey. They've had democracy for almost 100-yrs, gave women the vote long before most nations in Europe including the UK and most importantly they are a secular political system with over 95% of the population being Muslim and the current government being led by the Islamic Party - with little or no negative implications for the west. Nobody there cares if you are a jew, christian or full-on muslim. They are one of the core members of Nato and manage to bridge the east/west divide without too much trouble. We should be investing more in their model of democracy and promoting it to those looking for life after dictatorship.
Go back to WMD and Iraq...Turkey gave itself a free vote on whether to join the war or not. I don't recall too many western nations having a free parliamentary vote on the subject...sometimes we are a little arrogant to think our model of democracy is the best and only way forward and for sure we are too blind to recognize that a democratic muslim state led by an Islamic Party is already one of our greatest and longest serving allies.
Re: Tanks in Egypt
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Poke</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Falar</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Those Abrams are very stripped down. I think they even have diesel engines. </div></div>
I think all Abrams have a "diesel" engine per say. I was on the M1, M1A1, M1A2, and M1A2 SEP. Drive train was essentially the same with some updates.
Either way if your shocked that we have "sold" them to Egypt then you will be real shocked to learn we have passed on a couple to Iraq also. At this time they only have maybe half a platoons worth of the Abrams but they do have them. Give em a month or two and they will be broken down since these monkey's don’t have the mechanical inclination to support those beast...
BTW Egypt has had them since at least before 2000 timeframe. One of our Sgt. retired and took a gig there mentoring on them. </div></div>
He ment piston and not turbine!
No other army has the capability to sustain/support our mech assets. Piston engines are a little more green friendly but aren't as good for keeping us crunchies warm in winter!
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Poke</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Falar</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Those Abrams are very stripped down. I think they even have diesel engines. </div></div>
I think all Abrams have a "diesel" engine per say. I was on the M1, M1A1, M1A2, and M1A2 SEP. Drive train was essentially the same with some updates.
Either way if your shocked that we have "sold" them to Egypt then you will be real shocked to learn we have passed on a couple to Iraq also. At this time they only have maybe half a platoons worth of the Abrams but they do have them. Give em a month or two and they will be broken down since these monkey's don’t have the mechanical inclination to support those beast...
BTW Egypt has had them since at least before 2000 timeframe. One of our Sgt. retired and took a gig there mentoring on them. </div></div>
He ment piston and not turbine!
No other army has the capability to sustain/support our mech assets. Piston engines are a little more green friendly but aren't as good for keeping us crunchies warm in winter!
Re: Tanks in Egypt
I'd honestly like to see Egypt get what the people are asking for, but I just think there are too many competing interests, powerful ones, for that to have much chance of success. Too many spoons in that pot.
While Turkey and its people are fine examples of democracy in the Mideast, they are not Arabs, and probably never going to be accepted as Arabs by the Arabs. The Iranians have similar issues. That's not racism, that's history. Muslim Brotherhood covers a lot, but these issues predate Muhammad.
On the original subject, turbines probably shut down, cool off, and restart somewhat better in subzero temps than piston engines.
Not to harp, but this matter of American non-support for Mubarak is no 'sweep-it-under-the-rug' minor detail. Those Camp David accords were not just signed by Israel and Egypt, they were also witnessed in writing by an incumbent US President. In my book, witnessing means something more than just sitting back and watching as a signatory nation loses its leadership due to an insurrection of uncertain origin.
American assurances throughout the Mideast, and especially in Israel, should be feeling a genuine shakeup about now.
If not, then I'm likely wrong about a lot of things. But for now, I doubt it.
And finally, while I resent being called out as racist and a false witness, I make allowance for newness and ignorance about my history here. Perhaps with time, the poster will learn tolerance and more reasonable reticence. I also think its long past time when they should have filled in their profile.
Greg
PS, it was the British at the Battle of Taranto in 1940 who taught the lesson employed at Pearl Harbor. As usual at the time, the Japanese were consummate imitators and lousy strategists. Perhaps you are too young to remember Postwar Japanese goods.
I'd honestly like to see Egypt get what the people are asking for, but I just think there are too many competing interests, powerful ones, for that to have much chance of success. Too many spoons in that pot.
While Turkey and its people are fine examples of democracy in the Mideast, they are not Arabs, and probably never going to be accepted as Arabs by the Arabs. The Iranians have similar issues. That's not racism, that's history. Muslim Brotherhood covers a lot, but these issues predate Muhammad.
On the original subject, turbines probably shut down, cool off, and restart somewhat better in subzero temps than piston engines.
Not to harp, but this matter of American non-support for Mubarak is no 'sweep-it-under-the-rug' minor detail. Those Camp David accords were not just signed by Israel and Egypt, they were also witnessed in writing by an incumbent US President. In my book, witnessing means something more than just sitting back and watching as a signatory nation loses its leadership due to an insurrection of uncertain origin.
American assurances throughout the Mideast, and especially in Israel, should be feeling a genuine shakeup about now.
If not, then I'm likely wrong about a lot of things. But for now, I doubt it.
And finally, while I resent being called out as racist and a false witness, I make allowance for newness and ignorance about my history here. Perhaps with time, the poster will learn tolerance and more reasonable reticence. I also think its long past time when they should have filled in their profile.
Greg
PS, it was the British at the Battle of Taranto in 1940 who taught the lesson employed at Pearl Harbor. As usual at the time, the Japanese were consummate imitators and lousy strategists. Perhaps you are too young to remember Postwar Japanese goods.
Re: Tanks in Egypt
Still a false witness in my book.
The preWWII opinion of the Japanese was they couldnt fly a plane- period.
FYI the Arizona was sunk with a BOMB not a torpedo so while the Japanese showed great creativity and studied other military actions, they could infact fly planes and quite well.
When it comes to poor strategies, the Allies made huge mistakes that manpower and industrial production overcame. The side with the bigger battalions won.
As far as cheap post WWII goods. They had been bombed flat. They had a quality curve to ride and ride they did as the 60's and 70's fear of a Japanese conquest of our nation through a flood of GOOD consumer goods- this includes much better cars- was used to rally perhaps the last semi-successful Buy American wave. Some seem to be very selective in making a case for other people's lack of success and are quite happy to apply it to the entire people. That is racism.
History isnt a snapshot of one point in the timeline to be used to sum up an entire region. It is racist to ignore a region's democracies because they are not arabs.
People are people
NOW if a true historian looks into how the West has suppressed any real democratic well springs in so strategic a board piece as the Middle East any claim that 'history' shows how incapable the Arab is at democracy is patently false.
But for many its much easier to ignore the Butcher's thumb on the scale and blame the cow for how small a steak our money buys.
Still a false witness in my book.
The preWWII opinion of the Japanese was they couldnt fly a plane- period.
FYI the Arizona was sunk with a BOMB not a torpedo so while the Japanese showed great creativity and studied other military actions, they could infact fly planes and quite well.
When it comes to poor strategies, the Allies made huge mistakes that manpower and industrial production overcame. The side with the bigger battalions won.
As far as cheap post WWII goods. They had been bombed flat. They had a quality curve to ride and ride they did as the 60's and 70's fear of a Japanese conquest of our nation through a flood of GOOD consumer goods- this includes much better cars- was used to rally perhaps the last semi-successful Buy American wave. Some seem to be very selective in making a case for other people's lack of success and are quite happy to apply it to the entire people. That is racism.
History isnt a snapshot of one point in the timeline to be used to sum up an entire region. It is racist to ignore a region's democracies because they are not arabs.
People are people
NOW if a true historian looks into how the West has suppressed any real democratic well springs in so strategic a board piece as the Middle East any claim that 'history' shows how incapable the Arab is at democracy is patently false.
But for many its much easier to ignore the Butcher's thumb on the scale and blame the cow for how small a steak our money buys.
Re: Tanks in Egypt
Well; I foresee a long and pleasant career for you here at The 'Hide.
I actually do have a few friends here. Shame you seem so determined not to be among them.
Since you also appear determined to be personally offensive as well as arbitrarily argumentative, I've decided to end our dialogue.
For now, you userid has been put on ignore.
Perhaps in the interim you will learn better forum decorum.
Perhaps not.
Greg
Well; I foresee a long and pleasant career for you here at The 'Hide.
I actually do have a few friends here. Shame you seem so determined not to be among them.
Since you also appear determined to be personally offensive as well as arbitrarily argumentative, I've decided to end our dialogue.
For now, you userid has been put on ignore.
Perhaps in the interim you will learn better forum decorum.
Perhaps not.
Greg
Re: Tanks in Egypt
Right, Egypt has a rich heritage of Western thought. Sorry, I forgot.
Freedom will flourish there, just like it has in Iraq once their dictator was disposed.
Wrong.
If the current authoritarian control is toppled it will become mob rule which will usher in an Islamist totalitarian regime.
Do a little research. Read chapter Seven starting on page 86 of this book.
Egypt is a very, very important piece of the puzzle in securing a global Caliphate.
Right, Egypt has a rich heritage of Western thought. Sorry, I forgot.
Freedom will flourish there, just like it has in Iraq once their dictator was disposed.
Wrong.
If the current authoritarian control is toppled it will become mob rule which will usher in an Islamist totalitarian regime.
Do a little research. Read chapter Seven starting on page 86 of this book.
Egypt is a very, very important piece of the puzzle in securing a global Caliphate.
Re: Tanks in Egypt
1. Anyone can make a website.
2. Don't believe everything you read on the internet, even if it plays to your "gut feeling" about an issue. Glenn Beck, I'm talking to you.
3. Just because a person writes something and posts it on the internet doesn't make it happen in real life. This applies to everyone, from white supremacists to Islamic fundamentalists.
4. Fearmongering does nothing but muddle intelligent debate. Take the high road.
5. Reading a chapter from a pdf book on the internet does not constitute research.
You're welcome to build your bomb shelter and prepare for the end of days. I think the Egyptian Revolution isn't the cataclysmic sign you're looking for, though. In fact, I think the geopolitical shifts this uprising will cause will be mostly underwhelming for anyone outside of Egypt, and certainly for those outside of the region. Case in point, the Egyptian military already said that all treaties with Israel will be maintained indefinitely. That was one of the biggest concerns when the turmoil in Egypt and Mubarak's ouster began.
But ultimately, this is all supposition and conjecture. No one knows how today's causes will enable tomorrow's effects. Don't believe anyone who says they do. No one's got a crystal ball. If you do, PM me with some good stock market advice.
1. Anyone can make a website.
2. Don't believe everything you read on the internet, even if it plays to your "gut feeling" about an issue. Glenn Beck, I'm talking to you.
3. Just because a person writes something and posts it on the internet doesn't make it happen in real life. This applies to everyone, from white supremacists to Islamic fundamentalists.
4. Fearmongering does nothing but muddle intelligent debate. Take the high road.
5. Reading a chapter from a pdf book on the internet does not constitute research.
You're welcome to build your bomb shelter and prepare for the end of days. I think the Egyptian Revolution isn't the cataclysmic sign you're looking for, though. In fact, I think the geopolitical shifts this uprising will cause will be mostly underwhelming for anyone outside of Egypt, and certainly for those outside of the region. Case in point, the Egyptian military already said that all treaties with Israel will be maintained indefinitely. That was one of the biggest concerns when the turmoil in Egypt and Mubarak's ouster began.
But ultimately, this is all supposition and conjecture. No one knows how today's causes will enable tomorrow's effects. Don't believe anyone who says they do. No one's got a crystal ball. If you do, PM me with some good stock market advice.
Re: Tanks in Egypt
Interesting read. I hope that PERHAPS the advent of mass communicatiion may allow people to see what freedom we have, and reject that course. Time will tell.
Interesting read. I hope that PERHAPS the advent of mass communicatiion may allow people to see what freedom we have, and reject that course. Time will tell.
Re: Tanks in Egypt
Greg-
Though you choose to walk away from facts I dont hold you any illwill. That you have a friend or two online doesnt make your 'facts' correct or your attitude fair. That you attempted to play fast and loose with the true facts to make blanket statements about other nations and people was all you.
A thought or two on what passes as Western thought. In the vast annals of recorded time democracy has been but a nit, a flickering flame that springs up from time to time mostly to falter and go dark. Only in the past couple of centuries has this version been hailed as that bright city on the hill. (and quite a few here lament it too has been corrupted beyond hope) For most of Western History Kings and Tyrants dominated our thought. That and a very oppressive church that claimed the sun revolved around the earth and failure to agree with Church doctrine could get you killed.
For those who love the macho slogan, "Kill them all, God will call/know His own" that Christain brigands attacking southern french towns under church sanction. For the Church was a profitable business for second and third born sons of minor nobles.
But communism is western thought as much as nihilism. Lets not leave out Wicca and a whole host of touchy feely crap granola crunchers have twisted up like doobies from Eastern thought.
All that is to say lets not be too blind as to how noble and helpful our thought or covert/overt actions are. I would be surprized if we have the most Christians and porn in all the world. We are both saint and sinner- (I like Rolling Stones Sympathy for the Devil over CCR) so lets not get too far up the high horse!
There isnt any conflict between a Muslim Middle East and democracy. The idea of some new Militant Islamic Empire is about as acheiveable as a second founding of the Kingdom of David.
Drives a few extreme believers but not the masses.
Time will tell what comes out of Eqypt. Now that the cold war is frigid perhaps we will not be so willing to support dictators. The lust for oil is still a huge draw to meddle in other nation's affairs but the blowback from ultra nationalists is the sword over transnational corporate heads.
I dont fear a moonrise, do wonder a bit about the man behind the curtain.
Greg-
Though you choose to walk away from facts I dont hold you any illwill. That you have a friend or two online doesnt make your 'facts' correct or your attitude fair. That you attempted to play fast and loose with the true facts to make blanket statements about other nations and people was all you.
A thought or two on what passes as Western thought. In the vast annals of recorded time democracy has been but a nit, a flickering flame that springs up from time to time mostly to falter and go dark. Only in the past couple of centuries has this version been hailed as that bright city on the hill. (and quite a few here lament it too has been corrupted beyond hope) For most of Western History Kings and Tyrants dominated our thought. That and a very oppressive church that claimed the sun revolved around the earth and failure to agree with Church doctrine could get you killed.
For those who love the macho slogan, "Kill them all, God will call/know His own" that Christain brigands attacking southern french towns under church sanction. For the Church was a profitable business for second and third born sons of minor nobles.
But communism is western thought as much as nihilism. Lets not leave out Wicca and a whole host of touchy feely crap granola crunchers have twisted up like doobies from Eastern thought.
All that is to say lets not be too blind as to how noble and helpful our thought or covert/overt actions are. I would be surprized if we have the most Christians and porn in all the world. We are both saint and sinner- (I like Rolling Stones Sympathy for the Devil over CCR) so lets not get too far up the high horse!
There isnt any conflict between a Muslim Middle East and democracy. The idea of some new Militant Islamic Empire is about as acheiveable as a second founding of the Kingdom of David.
Drives a few extreme believers but not the masses.
Time will tell what comes out of Eqypt. Now that the cold war is frigid perhaps we will not be so willing to support dictators. The lust for oil is still a huge draw to meddle in other nation's affairs but the blowback from ultra nationalists is the sword over transnational corporate heads.
I dont fear a moonrise, do wonder a bit about the man behind the curtain.
Re: Tanks in Egypt
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ZLBubba</div><div class="ubbcode-body">1. Anyone can make a website.</div></div>
That book is posted at khilafah.com.
Take a look around that site.
What more do you need to see or read before you wake up?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">We assert, without compromise, that it is only by the establishment of the Khilafah State, that the practical solutions of Islam can once again provide a real alternative for the entire world. The ‘Clash of Civilisations’ first discussed by Samuel Huntington is real and inevitable. We endorse the notion that there is a civilisational difference between Islam and the West and that the problem for the West is Islam and the problem for Islam is the West.</div></div>
Meanwhile, Gaddafi tells Palestinians: revolt against Israel
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Accuses Western powers of being enemies of Islam</div></div>
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ZLBubba</div><div class="ubbcode-body">1. Anyone can make a website.</div></div>
That book is posted at khilafah.com.
Take a look around that site.
What more do you need to see or read before you wake up?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">We assert, without compromise, that it is only by the establishment of the Khilafah State, that the practical solutions of Islam can once again provide a real alternative for the entire world. The ‘Clash of Civilisations’ first discussed by Samuel Huntington is real and inevitable. We endorse the notion that there is a civilisational difference between Islam and the West and that the problem for the West is Islam and the problem for Islam is the West.</div></div>
Meanwhile, Gaddafi tells Palestinians: revolt against Israel
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Accuses Western powers of being enemies of Islam</div></div>
Re: Tanks in Egypt
Add me as another combat vet in Greg's corner. Refreshing to hear ideals that I believe at my core come from another. The reactions that Greg's opinions bring are much like the ones that my words bring when I discuss my beliefs with the liberals I work with. Not to mention the non-libs that just suffer from a lack of resolve.
Add me as another combat vet in Greg's corner. Refreshing to hear ideals that I believe at my core come from another. The reactions that Greg's opinions bring are much like the ones that my words bring when I discuss my beliefs with the liberals I work with. Not to mention the non-libs that just suffer from a lack of resolve.
Re: Tanks in Egypt
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tigerbikes</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ZLBubba</div><div class="ubbcode-body">1. Anyone can make a website.</div></div>
Hey dumb ass, that book is posted at khilafah.com.
Take a look around that site.
What more do you need to see or read before you wake the fuck up? </div></div>
Let me ask you one simple question: who is that site for if it's written in English? Is the Arab world reading it? Who is its audience? If you're going to tell me that your 30 second Google search led you to the heart and soul of Islamic fundamentalism, in English, then I'd ask you how many people in the Arab world can even read that site. That site is clearly made for a western audience.
Let's dial this passion back a bit. I'm a combat vet, and I'm headed to Afghanistan in a few months with the government. I've got a dog in this fight as much as anyone. And if anyone thinks there's some viable global Islamic conspiracy to take over the world, then I'm going to put them in the same nut job box that I put people that talk about other religious or philosophical world orders. Furthermore, if you think that the uprising in Egypt is part of that mass conspiracy, you're ignoring how the Egyptian revolt started, who participated in it, and what the goals of the revolt were and are. Ignore facts all you want, but doing so only undermines your arguments.
A worldwide caliphate may be part of Al Qaeda's master plan, but that in no way overcomes the fact that there's no causal link between AQ and the popular leaders of the Egyptian revolt. That's like giving a rooster's crow credit for the sun coming up. There's absolutely no indication that the protesters want to adopt Sharia law in Egypt. Take a look at the schism that occurred between the Muslim Brotherhood and the Egyptian Islamic Jihad. The MB forced the EIJ out because it was so radical and violent. That's one of the main reasons Ayman al-Zawahiri left Egypt and allied himself with Osama bin Laden in the first place. Zawahiri's EIJ had worn out its welcome with Egyptians so it had to move elsewhere. If you want my source, it's not from some crazy ass website, it's a Pulitzer Prize winning book: The Looming Tower.
While AQ may have a global caliphate as its agenda, it's hard to do anything when its leadership is stuck in remote provinces of Pakistan. Lumping all issues in north Africa, the Middle East, and southwest Asia as problems with Islamic fundamentalism is not only misinformed, it obfuscates the real reasons for conflict and radicalization: the local and national drivers of instability. We will never cease to fight these wars if we continue to convinces ourselves of some Islamic bogey man out to get us.
In other words, I've woken the fuck up, thank you very much.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tigerbikes</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ZLBubba</div><div class="ubbcode-body">1. Anyone can make a website.</div></div>
Hey dumb ass, that book is posted at khilafah.com.
Take a look around that site.
What more do you need to see or read before you wake the fuck up? </div></div>
Let me ask you one simple question: who is that site for if it's written in English? Is the Arab world reading it? Who is its audience? If you're going to tell me that your 30 second Google search led you to the heart and soul of Islamic fundamentalism, in English, then I'd ask you how many people in the Arab world can even read that site. That site is clearly made for a western audience.
Let's dial this passion back a bit. I'm a combat vet, and I'm headed to Afghanistan in a few months with the government. I've got a dog in this fight as much as anyone. And if anyone thinks there's some viable global Islamic conspiracy to take over the world, then I'm going to put them in the same nut job box that I put people that talk about other religious or philosophical world orders. Furthermore, if you think that the uprising in Egypt is part of that mass conspiracy, you're ignoring how the Egyptian revolt started, who participated in it, and what the goals of the revolt were and are. Ignore facts all you want, but doing so only undermines your arguments.
A worldwide caliphate may be part of Al Qaeda's master plan, but that in no way overcomes the fact that there's no causal link between AQ and the popular leaders of the Egyptian revolt. That's like giving a rooster's crow credit for the sun coming up. There's absolutely no indication that the protesters want to adopt Sharia law in Egypt. Take a look at the schism that occurred between the Muslim Brotherhood and the Egyptian Islamic Jihad. The MB forced the EIJ out because it was so radical and violent. That's one of the main reasons Ayman al-Zawahiri left Egypt and allied himself with Osama bin Laden in the first place. Zawahiri's EIJ had worn out its welcome with Egyptians so it had to move elsewhere. If you want my source, it's not from some crazy ass website, it's a Pulitzer Prize winning book: The Looming Tower.
While AQ may have a global caliphate as its agenda, it's hard to do anything when its leadership is stuck in remote provinces of Pakistan. Lumping all issues in north Africa, the Middle East, and southwest Asia as problems with Islamic fundamentalism is not only misinformed, it obfuscates the real reasons for conflict and radicalization: the local and national drivers of instability. We will never cease to fight these wars if we continue to convinces ourselves of some Islamic bogey man out to get us.
In other words, I've woken the fuck up, thank you very much.
Re: Tanks in Egypt
Wow - lot to read in this.
For some to consider:
- The Treaty of Versailes / American and British efforts to influence (control) the entire region have arguably been the primary contributors in setting the stage for the problems of today. The argument that we nuke them into the stone age is merely an extension of such exploitation.
- There are many white coat PHD types running around saying that we are in peak oil now. On the positive side in 30 yrs we will no longer care about the ME, and America will do what we have always done when there is nothing left to be gained from another Nation - drop it like a hot rock and pretend it never existed.
- This wave of revolution that Egypt and others are experiencing - there is the very real chance it isn't organic. If it isn't organic and is instead fomented by outside forces - what is the real intent?
Good luck
Wow - lot to read in this.
For some to consider:
- The Treaty of Versailes / American and British efforts to influence (control) the entire region have arguably been the primary contributors in setting the stage for the problems of today. The argument that we nuke them into the stone age is merely an extension of such exploitation.
- There are many white coat PHD types running around saying that we are in peak oil now. On the positive side in 30 yrs we will no longer care about the ME, and America will do what we have always done when there is nothing left to be gained from another Nation - drop it like a hot rock and pretend it never existed.
- This wave of revolution that Egypt and others are experiencing - there is the very real chance it isn't organic. If it isn't organic and is instead fomented by outside forces - what is the real intent?
Good luck
Re: Tanks in Egypt
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ZLBubba</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> While AQ may have a global caliphate as its agenda... it obfuscates the real reasons for conflict and radicalization: the local and national drivers of instability..</div></div>
Written like a true believer.
So you dismiss the danger of a global Caliphate and the imposition of Sharia law?
Have you been to Great Britian or France recently?
And what are the REAL reasons for conflict between Islam and the West?
Is this all OUR fault?
Do tell...
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ZLBubba</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Let me ask you one simple question: who is that site for if it's written in English? Is the Arab world reading it? Who is its audience? If you're going to tell me that your 30 second Google search led you to the heart and soul of Islamic fundamentalism, in English, then I'd ask you how many people in the Arab world can even read that site. That site is clearly made for a western audience.</div></div>
So what are you trying to say?
If that site is "clearly for a Western audience" then who made it and why?
What is it's objective?
Heck, maybe it was created by our government to whip us all up into a frenzy?
You attempt to trivialize my evidence because you can find it on Google? The proof is right in front of you if you choose to look.
I will take my lesson from history. If you choose to deny the Islamist totolitarian regime that resulted from the power vacuum in Iran in the 1970s, and the radicalization of the population that is happening in Tunisia, Algeria, Palestine, Jordan, and Saudi Arabia, then there in no convincing you.
Oh, and there was that little incident called 911 that killed a bunch of my friends.
My aunt and uncle just returned from living in Cairo for the past 26 year working for the State Department. What is their impression? Egypt is increasingly radicalized and dangerous for Westerners.
We are under attack by Radical Islam. The same forces are working to consolidate power in the middle east. Yet you seem to deny this. I wonder why?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ZLBubba</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> While AQ may have a global caliphate as its agenda... it obfuscates the real reasons for conflict and radicalization: the local and national drivers of instability..</div></div>
Written like a true believer.
So you dismiss the danger of a global Caliphate and the imposition of Sharia law?
Have you been to Great Britian or France recently?
And what are the REAL reasons for conflict between Islam and the West?
Is this all OUR fault?
Do tell...
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: ZLBubba</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Let me ask you one simple question: who is that site for if it's written in English? Is the Arab world reading it? Who is its audience? If you're going to tell me that your 30 second Google search led you to the heart and soul of Islamic fundamentalism, in English, then I'd ask you how many people in the Arab world can even read that site. That site is clearly made for a western audience.</div></div>
So what are you trying to say?
If that site is "clearly for a Western audience" then who made it and why?
What is it's objective?
Heck, maybe it was created by our government to whip us all up into a frenzy?
You attempt to trivialize my evidence because you can find it on Google? The proof is right in front of you if you choose to look.
I will take my lesson from history. If you choose to deny the Islamist totolitarian regime that resulted from the power vacuum in Iran in the 1970s, and the radicalization of the population that is happening in Tunisia, Algeria, Palestine, Jordan, and Saudi Arabia, then there in no convincing you.
Oh, and there was that little incident called 911 that killed a bunch of my friends.
My aunt and uncle just returned from living in Cairo for the past 26 year working for the State Department. What is their impression? Egypt is increasingly radicalized and dangerous for Westerners.
We are under attack by Radical Islam. The same forces are working to consolidate power in the middle east. Yet you seem to deny this. I wonder why?
Re: Tanks in Egypt
Tiger-
I guess we vets who dont take such 'facts' as seriously as you, do so because we see more than a small fragment of a people. We see what the Western Powers have done in the region and why so many dont like our 'help'.
There are white supremists in this nation who are very ardent in their desire to create a white christian nation here. But they do not represent a majority nor have much chance of success.
911 was horrific. Those who planned this must be hunted as the world criminals they are. However in no way do those radicals have majority support or we would already have 100's of similar attacks successfully done. There would have been hundreds of gunman attacks in malls.
But we dont.
Radical Terrorists are attacking us but they are not a majority nor likely to succeed. Few past those peddling anti-terrorist angendas or gear think the radicals are a huge threat to dominate the world.
Like it or not, our actions in the region for the past 70 years has bred huge resentments. That some are exploiting that is bad, but not a sign of some new Islamic wave of conquest.
I understand eternal vigilance- I understand threat assessment.
I also understand some pine for a new arch villian threat to our nation. A new focus for billions we spend protecting some 'national interests'.
But outside a few pinheads and radical terrorists- Islam aint it. Attempting to make them the new Commies promotes them far above the credit this scum deserves.
That to me is the biggest help we can be to their cause, making this scum appear to be a major threat to civilization.
Tiger-
I guess we vets who dont take such 'facts' as seriously as you, do so because we see more than a small fragment of a people. We see what the Western Powers have done in the region and why so many dont like our 'help'.
There are white supremists in this nation who are very ardent in their desire to create a white christian nation here. But they do not represent a majority nor have much chance of success.
911 was horrific. Those who planned this must be hunted as the world criminals they are. However in no way do those radicals have majority support or we would already have 100's of similar attacks successfully done. There would have been hundreds of gunman attacks in malls.
But we dont.
Radical Terrorists are attacking us but they are not a majority nor likely to succeed. Few past those peddling anti-terrorist angendas or gear think the radicals are a huge threat to dominate the world.
Like it or not, our actions in the region for the past 70 years has bred huge resentments. That some are exploiting that is bad, but not a sign of some new Islamic wave of conquest.
I understand eternal vigilance- I understand threat assessment.
I also understand some pine for a new arch villian threat to our nation. A new focus for billions we spend protecting some 'national interests'.
But outside a few pinheads and radical terrorists- Islam aint it. Attempting to make them the new Commies promotes them far above the credit this scum deserves.
That to me is the biggest help we can be to their cause, making this scum appear to be a major threat to civilization.
Re: Tanks in Egypt
I for one am pretty proud of the people of Egypt. A muslum country pulling off a Ghandi-like peaceful overthough of their dictator deserves a chance for self-governance.
I for one am pretty proud of the people of Egypt. A muslum country pulling off a Ghandi-like peaceful overthough of their dictator deserves a chance for self-governance.
