TC Encore Rifle to Pistol Question

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Does anyone know if you can take a TC Encore Rifle Remove the butt stock and forearm and put on a pistol grip and forearm with 15 inch barrel and it be legal. Just say the Encore was purchased as a rifle and you want to use it as a pistol. Can you legally do this? I was told you have to purchase the frame as a pistol frame and you could use it as a rifle AND I have been told you can Buy the rifle and turn it into a pistol as long as you used the 15 inch or shorter barrel and pistol grip and forearm. Thanks
 

quiksilv81

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Re: TC Encore Rifle to Pistol Question

I don't think you legally can do that. You would be essentially making a sbr( short barreled rifle). Someone with experience will chime in but i'm pretty sure that would be illegal.
 

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Re: TC Encore Rifle to Pistol Question

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Niles Coyote</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You can turn the handgun into a rifle but not the reverse. </div></div> See, That is my question, That doesn't make sense that it goes both ways. To me it should be yes you can or no you cannot. Stupid Laws in my opinion.
 

Tackleberry

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Re: TC Encore Rifle to Pistol Question

The frame is registered. I would think that you could go either way as long as you have pistol grips with the short barrel. I would think you can't have a short barrel and rifle stock (SBR). Keep 16" or longer on a rifle and 16" or shorter on a pistol forearm and pistol grip. I might be wrong but an encore frame is an encore frame
 

quiksilv81

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Re: TC Encore Rifle to Pistol Question

Yeah but if its a rifle its registered as a rifle and same with the pistol. If you put a short barrel on the rifle no matter stock, pistol grip or what i would think that would still classify it as an sbr. I would def find out before i tried it, that could be a costly mistake.
 

Immorteq

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Re: TC Encore Rifle to Pistol Question

If it came in rifle form orinally then it's always a rifle forever and is illegal to change into a pistol. If it left the factory as a pistol then you can change from pistol to rifle and back again, providing you aren't caught with the firearm assembled with a pistol barrel and a rifle buttstock attached at the same time. It's all about the documentation of the condition the firearm left the factory in. Having the box checked "other" after the fact in a subsequent 4473 transfer is meaningless if the ATF decides you need a good fuckin.
 

Niles Coyote

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    Re: TC Encore Rifle to Pistol Question

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: VTR</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Niles Coyote</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You can turn the handgun into a rifle but not the reverse. </div></div> See, That is my question, That doesn't make sense that it goes both ways. To me it should be yes you can or no you cannot. Stupid Laws in my opinion. </div></div>

    I agree, but most gun laws are stupid. I remember reading a note from the ATF regarding this very question a few years back. If I can located it I will forward it to you.
     

    Smith44699

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    Re: TC Encore Rifle to Pistol Question

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: tackleberry</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The frame is registered. I would think that you could go either way as long as you have pistol grips with the short barrel. I would think you can't have a short barrel and rifle stock (SBR). Keep 16" or longer on a rifle and 16" or shorter on a pistol forearm and pistol grip. I might be wrong but an encore frame is an encore frame </div></div>

    +1 on this.

    Also the frames are not registered as pistols or rifles . Call the ATF for yourself. They will give you the best answer. Been changing contenders and encores around for more than 20 years. Besides if you bought a new frame. Frame only. The paperwork is just for the frame. Just like many other receivers. Like 1911 and glock lowers for example. You can buy carbine kits for them. They started out as pistols and you can convert them to rifles. As long as your barrel is 16 or more inches no problem.
     

    Longguns

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    Re: TC Encore Rifle to Pistol Question

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Niles Coyote</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: VTR</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Niles Coyote</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You can turn the handgun into a rifle but not the reverse. </div></div> See, That is my question, That doesn't make sense that it goes both ways. To me it should be yes you can or no you cannot. Stupid Laws in my opinion. </div></div>

    I agree, but most gun laws are stupid. I remember reading a note from the ATF regarding this very question a few years back. If I can located it I will forward it to you. </div></div>Niles Coyote, I appreciate it. I called TC and got the standard dumbass answer from them. The CS Rep said that I would have to check my state laws and I tried to tell him this is a Federal Law,Not State. Called EABCO and the lady said you could go either way with it. Gunshop I deal with said you could go either way as long as you did not put rifle parts on a pistol(stock,short barrel, this is a no brainer any way) . I guess the best thing is call ATF see what they say as they are the ones that could burn your ass.
     

    Immorteq

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    Re: TC Encore Rifle to Pistol Question

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Smith44699</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: tackleberry</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The frame is registered. I would think that you could go either way as long as you have pistol grips with the short barrel. I would think you can't have a short barrel and rifle stock (SBR). Keep 16" or longer on a rifle and 16" or shorter on a pistol forearm and pistol grip. I might be wrong but an encore frame is an encore frame </div></div>

    +1 on this.

    Also the frames are not registered as pistols or rifles . Call the ATF for yourself. They will give you the best answer. Been changing contenders and encores around for more than 20 years. Besides if you bought a new frame. Frame only. The paperwork is just for the frame. Just like many other receivers. Like 1911 and glock lowers for example. You can buy carbine kits for them. They started out as pistols and you can convert them to rifles. As long as your barrel is 16 or more inches no problem.


    </div></div>

    This is only half true. You cannot buy a TC Encore that was assembled and sold as rifle from the factory and turn it into a handgun. Period. That's the ATF's position.
     

    skog

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    Re: TC Encore Rifle to Pistol Question

    thompson won a supreme court case in 1992 that basicly said the condition that as long as the present state is legal you are gtg, basicly as long as it doesnt have a buttstock and short barrel it is legal. Although I have read several ATF opinion letters that were written up to a couple of years ago that says a rifle is a rifle and if it has a short barrel, buttstock or pistol grip dont matter.
     

    Niles Coyote

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    Re: TC Encore Rifle to Pistol Question

    The more I dug into this the more confused I got. but...

    http://www.law.cornell.edu/supct/html/91-0164.ZO.html

    I can see why they said "The CS Rep said that I would have to check my state laws"

    I am not a lawyer but It would appear that both are legal per the above but failure to disassemble and reassemble in the right way would turn the gun into a NFA weapon. But the ownership of parts is not illegal in and of itself.

    Here in Michigan we must register all handguns. Because of this, I was told by a knowledgeable gun dealer that if I purchased a handgun I could turn it into a rifle but not the reverse. That would make sense in my state.

    But I fear I am missing something somewhere.
     

    Niles Coyote

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    Re: TC Encore Rifle to Pistol Question

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: skog</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Although I have read several ATF opinion letters that were written up to a couple of years ago that says a rifle is a rifle and if it has a short barrel, buttstock or pistol grip dont matter.
    </div></div>

    This is what I think I am missing as what I read was not as old as 92, but I am not having much luck finding them now.
     

    Fret Fodder

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    Re: TC Encore Rifle to Pistol Question

    I went through this exercise about seven years ago. I bought an Encore muzzle loader with big plans which included handgun configurations. The versatility/interchangeability is a huge selling point for T/C. Then I stumbled across a similar discussion and the more I read about the issue the more disheartened I became.

    I agree that a lot of the gun laws don't make sense, especially when we are talking about a single shot firearm like the Encore/Contender etc. But until these rules are changed this is what we have to work within. What I would like to see from a manufacturer of a modular firearm design like the Encore/Contender is effective communication on how to keep their product "lawfully compliant".

    For example in literature accompanying many imported rifles there is a count and identification of the components required to make the imported firearm US compliant. These companies understand that owners of their products will want to make changes to their firearms. In anticipation of this, there are specific details (rules) provided to ensure the owner makes changes that do not affect the legality of the firearm. IMO this is effective communication. T/C starts down this path but then becomes a little vague about the long gun to handgun conversion.

    On an Encore's box (long gun), it clearly warns against putting barrels less than 16" on a frame with a shoulder stock mounted to it. It re-emphasizes this in the owner's manual. Nowhere in any of the product literature does it talk about the long gun to handgun conversion. If I recall, there was even a sales brochure included in the box with all the possible calibers, barrels (both long gun and handgun), and a complete line of accessories that included different long gun and handgun furniture options. This would have been an ideal opportunity to bring up the conversion legalities. "Pistol grip, not for use on Encores that were purchased as long guns". Better yet, T/C could have made the handgun parts incompatible with the long gun frames. They chose not to.

    How is it that T/C can address one legal concern with their product very clearly, and not even mention the other potential pitfall for the new Encore owner? Are not both violations considered "Federal"?

    I've always liked T/C and was excited to get my Encore. But the level of ambiguity that surrounded this topic in conjunction with T/C's reluctance to take a position was discomforting. I feel like I was put in compromising position. I don't own any T/C equipment now and I don't foresee ever getting any more in the future.
    frown.gif


    - Fret
     

    Longguns

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    Re: TC Encore Rifle to Pistol Question

    Called a Class 3 dealer in my area and he said You could use the pistol as a pistol but not have any parts to a rifle(buttstock,rifle barrel)on it. Basically use the pistol as a pistol and the rifle as a rifle. He said you could just purchase a frame and use it either way. Next step if the ATF as I still am not satisfied with this answer.
    Agree with you Fret on TC dodging the issue. They told me to contact the state I live in. Am about fed up with this BS.
     

    Niles Coyote

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    Re: TC Encore Rifle to Pistol Question

    ------------------------Reposted from the above----------------------
    <span style="font-style: italic">U.S. Department of Justice
    Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives
    Office of the Director
    Washington, DC 20226
    26 U.S.C. 5845(a)(3): DEFINITIONS (FIREARM ) 26 U.S.C. 5845(a)(4): DEFINITIONS (FIREARM) 26 U.S.C. 5845(c): DEFINITIONS (RIFLE) 27 CFR 479.11: DEFINITIONS (RIFLE)
    27 CFR 479.11: DEFINITIONS (PISTOL)
    A firearm, as defined by the National Firearms Act (NFA), 26 U.S.C. 5845(a)(3), is made when unassembled parts are placed in close proximity in such a way that they: (a) serve no useful purpose other than to make a rifle having a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length; or (b) convert a complete weapon into such an NFA firearm. A firearm, as defined by 26 U.S.C. 5845(a)(3) and (a)(4), is not made when parts within a kit that were originally designed to be configured as both a pistol and a rifle are assembled or re-assembled in a configuration not regulated under the NFA (e.g., as a pistol, or a rifle with a barrel or barrels of 16 inches or more in length). A firearm, as defined by 26 U.S.C. 5845(a)(3) and (a)(4), is not made when a pistol is attached to a part or parts designed to convert the pistol into a rifle with a barrel or barrels of 16 inches or more in length, and the parts are later unassembled in a configuration not regulated under the NFA (e.g., as a pistol). A firearm, as defined by 26 U.S.C. 5845(a)(4), is made when a handgun or other weapon with an overall length of less than 26 inches, or a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length, is assembled or produced from a weapon originally assembled or produced only as a rifle.
    ATF Rul. 2011-4
    The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF) has received requests from individuals to classify pistols that are reconfigured into rifles, for personal use, through the addition of barrels, stocks, and other parts and then returned to a pistol configurationbyremovalofthosecomponents. Specifically,ATFhasbeenaskedto determine whether such a pistol, once returned to a pistol configuration from a rifle, becomes a „weapon made from a rifle‰ as defined under the National Firearms Act (NFA).
    Some manufacturers produce firearm receivers and attachable component parts that are designed to be assembled into both rifles and pistols. The same receiver can accept an interchangeable shoulder stock or pistol grip, and a long (16 or more inches in length) or short (less than 16 inches) barrel. These components are sold individually, or as unassembled kits. Generally, the kits include a receiver, a pistol grip, a pistol barrel less than 16 inches in length, a shoulder stock, and a rifle barrel 16 inches or more in length.
    -2-
    Certain parts or parts sets are also designed to allow an individual to convert a pistol into a rifle without removing a barrel or attaching a shoulder stock to the pistol. These parts consist of an outer shell with a shoulder stock into which the pistol may be inserted. When inserted, the pistol fires a projectile through a rifled extension barrel that is 16 inches or more in length, and with an overall length of 26 inches or more. Other parts sets require that certain parts of the pistol, such as the pistol barrel and the slide assembly, be removed from the pistol frame prior to attaching the parts sets. Typically, a separate barrel is sold with the parts set, which is 16 inches or greater in length. The barrel is installed along with an accompanying shoulder stock. The resulting firearm has a barrel of 16 inches or more in length, and an overall length of 26 inches or more.
    The NFA, Title 26, United States Code (U.S.C.), Chapter 53, requires that persons manufacturing, importing, transferring, or possessing firearms as defined in the NFA comply with the Act‚s licensing, registration, and taxation requirements. The NFA defines the term „firearm‰ at 26 U.S.C. 5845(a) to include „(3) a rifle having a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length;‰ („short-barreled rifle‰) and „(4) a weapon made from a rifle if such weapon as modified has an overall length of less than 26 inches or a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length‰ („weapon made from a rifle‰). The term „rifle‰ is defined by 26 U.S.C. 5845(c) and 27 CFR 479.11 as „a weapon designed or redesigned, made or remade, and intended to be fired from the shoulder and designed or redesigned and made or remade to use the energy of the explosive in a fixed cartridge to fire only a single projectile through a rifled bore for each single pull of the trigger, and shall include any such weapon which may be readily restored to fire a fixed cartridge.‰ Although not defined in the NFA, the term „pistol‰ is defined by the Act‚s implementing regulations, 27 CFR 479.11, as „a weapon originally designed, made, and intended to fire a projectile (bullet) from one or more barrels when held in one hand, and having (a) a chamber(s) as an integral part(s) of, or permanently aligned with, the bore(s); and (b) a short stock designed to be gripped by one hand and at an angle to and extending below the line of the bore(s)‰ (emphasis added).
    Unassembled Parts Kits
    In United States v. Thompson/Center Arms Company, 504 U.S. 505 (1992), the United States Supreme Court examined whether a short-barreled rifle was „made‰ under the NFA when a carbine-conversion kit consisting of a single-shot „Contender‰ pistol was designed so that its handle and barrel could be removed from its receiver, and was packaged with a 21-inch barrel, a rifle stock, and a wooden fore-end. The Court held that, where aggregated parts could convert a pistol into either a regulated short-barreled rifle, or an unregulated rifle with a barrel of 16 inches or more in length, the NFA was ambiguous and applied the „rule of lenity‰ (i.e., ambiguities in criminal statutes should be resolved in favor of the defendant) so that the pistol and carbine kit, when packaged together, were not considered a „short-barreled rifle‰ for purposes of the NFA.
    However, the Court also explained that an NFA firearm is made if aggregated parts are in close proximity such that they: (a) serve no useful purpose other than to make an NFA firearm (e.g., a receiver, an attachable shoulder stock, and a short barrel); or (b) convert a
    -3- complete weapon into an NFA firearm (e.g., a pistol and attachable shoulder stock, or a
    long-barreled rifle and attachable short barrel). Id. at 511-13. Assembly of Weapons from Parts Kits
    The Thompson/Center Court viewed the parts within the conversion kit not only as a Contender pistol, but also as an unassembled „rifle‰ as defined by 26 U.S.C. 5845(c). The inclusion of the rifle stock in the package brought the Contender pistol and carbine kit within the "intended to be fired from the shoulder" language in the definition of rifle at 26 U.S.C. 5845(c). Id. at 513 n.6. Thompson/Center did not address the subsequent assembly of the parts. United States v. Ardoin, 19 F.3d 177, 181 (5th Cir. 1994). Based on the definition of „firearm‰ in 26 U.S.C. 5845(a)(3), if parts are assembled into a rifle having a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length, a regulated short-barreled rifle has been made. See, e.g., United States v. Owens, 103 F.3d 953 (11th Cir. 1997); United States v. One (1) Colt Ar-15, 394 F. Supp. 2d 1064 (W.D.Tenn. 2004). Conversely, if the parts are assembled into a rifle having a barrel or barrels 16 inches in length or more, a rifle not subject to the NFA has been made.
    Therefore, so long as a parts kit or collection of parts is not used to make a firearm regulated under the NFA (e.g., a short-barreled rifle or „any other weapon‰ as defined by 26 U.S.C. 5845(e)), no NFA firearm is made when the same parts are assembled or re- assembled in a configuration not regulated under the NFA (e.g., a pistol, or a rifle with a barrel of 16 inches or more in length). Merely assembling and disassembling such a rifle does not result in the making of a new weapon; rather, it is the same rifle in a knockdown condition (i.e., complete as to all component parts). Likewise, because it is the same weapon when reconfigured as a pistol, no „weapon made from a rifle‰ subject to the NFA has been made.
    Nonetheless, if a handgun or other weapon with an overall length of less than 26 inches, or a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length is assembled or otherwise produced from a weapon originally assembled or produced only as a rifle, such a weapon is a „weapon made from a rifle‰ as defined by 26 U.S.C. 5845(a)(4). Such a weapon would not be a „pistol‰ because the weapon was not originally designed, made, and intended to fire a projectile by one hand.
    Held, a firearm, as defined by the National Firearms Act (NFA), 26 U.S.C. 5845(a)(3), is made when unassembled parts are placed in close proximity in such a way that they:
    (a) Serve no useful purpose other than to make a rifle having a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length (e.g., a receiver, an attachable shoulder stock, and barrel of less than 16 inches in length); or
    (b) Convert a complete weapon into such an NFA firearm, including ˆ (1) A pistol and attachable shoulder stock; and
    -4-
    (2) A rifle with a barrel of 16 inches or more in length, and an attachable barrel of less than 16 inches in length.
    Such weapons must be registered and are subject to all requirements of the NFA.
    Held further, a firearm, as defined by 26 U.S.C. 5845(a)(3) and (a)(4), is not made when parts in a kit that were originally designed to be configured as both a pistol and a rifle are assembled or re-assembled in a configuration not regulated under the NFA (e.g., as a pistol, or a rifle with a barrel of 16 inches or more in length).
    Held further, a firearm, as defined by 26 U.S.C. 5845(a)(3) and (a)(4), is not made when a pistol is attached to a part or parts designed to convert the pistol into a rifle with a barrel of 16 inches or more in length, and the parts are later unassembled in a configuration not regulated under the NFA (e.g., as a pistol).
    Held further, a firearm, as defined by 26 U.S.C. 5845(a)(4), is made when a handgun or other weapon with an overall length of less than 26 inches, or a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length, is assembled or produced from a weapon originally assembled or produced only as a rifle. Such weapons must be registered and are subject to all requirements of the NFA.
    To the extent this ruling may be inconsistent with any prior letter rulings, they are hereby superseded.
    Date approved: July 25, 2011
    Kenneth E. Melson Acting Director </span>


    -----------------------------------

    <span style="font-weight: bold">What a screwed up and confusing document!</span>
    So to my understanding (and I asked one of my officers to review it for a second opinion... remember neither of us are lawyers);

    A frame that was created as a pistol at the manufacture is ok to turn into a rifle.

    However a frame created as a rifle cannot become a pistol.

    I am sure it’s all just for marketing, but I think if I was T/C I would only manufacture handgun frames so none of my customers would get in trouble. At the very least T/C should print in bold letters throughout the factory supplied manual, “If this firearm was purchased in a rifle configuration do not attach pistol grips and/or handgun length barrels and/or configure it in any way that would cause the firearm’s overall length to be less than 26 inches”.
     

    Longguns

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    Re: TC Encore Rifle to Pistol Question

    Niles Coyote, I read it just like you said. Pistol to Rifle but Not Rifle to Pistol. I have called some dealers and some said either way some did not know. I think TC should step up and clarify things a bit. They will not be the one getting in trouble (it left our factory as this and what you do with it when after it leaves our factory is beyond our control). They (CS at TC) told me to check my state laws. This is not a State Matter but a Federal Matter. Thanks for the Help.