Techniques & equipment for load testing F-Class & PRS loads on BENCH?

JimGnitecki

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To be competitive you’ll probably find you need to unlearn a lot of things you learned in the past half decade.

Yes, that's likely true, as I was never before that interested in long range shooting simply because I had no access to a range of sufficient length. Now I do. I have 300 yards 18 minutes from home, and 1000 yards 2 hours from home. The 2 hours each way for the 1000 yards is not great, but the 18 minutes each way for the 300 yards is terrific compared to the past!

The handloading processes needed for longer rnage accuracy have indeed been a revelation (I read Zediker's "Top-Grade Ammo" book very carefully and follow his methods).

But the body positioning and proper use of accessories is the biggest current challenge, since I "don't know what I don't know". THAT's what I am seeking here, and now also on Benchrest-specific sites.

I don't expect to be "competitive", especially at my age and with my eyes (70 years and with replacement eye lenses and laser surgery done 5 years ago). But I really enjoy shooting and handloading, and THAT's my objective. :)

Jim G
 

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    Years ago I did the online classes here.
    extremely helpful

    for reloading I like cortina, f class John and winning in the wind because what works in f class transfers well to ELR
    They are after results and efficiency, not bragging how much work they do in their reloading processes but how little is really needed.
     
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    JimGnitecki

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    Years ago I did the online classes here.
    extremely helpful

    for reloading I like cortina, f class John and winning in the wind because what works in f class transfers well to ELR
    They are after results and efficiency, not bragging how much work they do in their reloading processes but how little is really needed.
    Everyone agrees on at least one thing: You gotta know how to observe, read, and react properly to what the wind is doing. THAT's another whole challenge I have yet to address. Right now, I am familiarizing myself with a Kestrel, but that of course is not enough.

    Jim G
     

    Seymour Fish

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    308pirate and DThomas: What you say is accurate, but as a SHOOTER, I am not a newbie. I have been shooting for ove rhalf a century. The NEW things I need to elarn are:
    - How to shoot F-Class
    - How to shoot PRS
    - How to ACCURATELY test handloaded ammo to the precision levels needed for F-Class at 600 to 1000 yards. THAT is why I am asking about techniques to use in bench testing my loads, so that I can factor out MY performance and see the LOAD performance.

    Jim G
    Some have failed to notice you are getting 0.3” at 100, thus their advice may be suspect. You are searching for a load that prints a 100 Yard group 50% taller than it is wide , with a node width of 0.4 grains of powder all with the same vertical centers with respect to poa, assuming your platform has some positive compensation. Work your loads using the exact equipment, hold, and position you intend to compete with. Skip over all the latest greatest bullshit and ignore anyone who mentions statistics. One-shot ladder tests work since you can shoot. No sufficiently wide node = change powder. Everything goes to the same elevation = platform has no positive compensation and will have to be tuned for tightest ES. Break down the center of your node in 0.1 grain increments of 3 rds each, and go straight to 1000. You want the least wind sensitivity, as that’s where more points are lost, thus you want a bit of vertical.
     

    Baron23

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    Sort of wondering the purpose of this thread when almost everything suggested gets refuted by “my f-class buddy”

    there is often a lot positive to be said for picking a single source and going with it....so, what’s this thread for?
     

    phlegethon

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    That has to be one of the more dense statements I have seen in a while.

    yeah, that’s the ticket....intentional ignorance.
    I was trying to ignore that wall of fudd lore, but yeah, couldn’t agree more.
     

    Dthomas3523

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    Some have failed to notice you are getting 0.3” at 100, thus their advice may be suspect. You are searching for a load that prints a 100 Yard group 50% taller than it is wide , with a node width of 0.4 grains of powder all with the same vertical centers with respect to poa, assuming your platform has some positive compensation. Work your loads using the exact equipment, hold, and position you intend to compete with. Skip over all the latest greatest bullshit and ignore anyone who mentions statistics. One-shot ladder tests work since you can shoot. No sufficiently wide node = change powder. Everything goes to the same elevation = platform has no positive compensation and will have to be tuned for tightest ES. Break down the center of your node in 0.1 grain increments of 3 rds each, and go straight to 1000. You want the least wind sensitivity, as that’s where more points are lost, thus you want a bit of vertical.

    Your reading comprehension is terrible.

    People are typically saying 1 shot velocity ladders don’t work. Most of the time, no one is taking aim at POI ladder tests as that’s a completely other topic.

    Also, if Alex Wheeler thinks he needs 3 shots per charge weights and not one, I guess he can’t “shoot” since you seem to think you only need one.
     

    JimGnitecki

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    Some have failed to notice you are getting 0.3” at 100, thus their advice may be suspect. You are searching for a load that prints a 100 Yard group 50% taller than it is wide , with a node width of 0.4 grains of powder all with the same vertical centers with respect to poa, assuming your platform has some positive compensation. Work your loads using the exact equipment, hold, and position you intend to compete with. Skip over all the latest greatest bullshit and ignore anyone who mentions statistics. One-shot ladder tests work since you can shoot. No sufficiently wide node = change powder. Everything goes to the same elevation = platform has no positive compensation and will have to be tuned for tightest ES. Break down the center of your node in 0.1 grain increments of 3 rds each, and go straight to 1000. You want the least wind sensitivity, as that’s where more points are lost, thus you want a bit of vertical.
    Wow, that's detailed info! Thank-you! I have only been able to test 2 powders, as they were the only 2 that I could ensure I could buy more of if they worked. They are Accurate 4350 and IMR 4350. Since I bought them, the Accurate 4350 has become no longer available anywhere here in Canada! Fortunately, the IMR 4350 performed a bit better than the Accurate 4350 in my ladder tests, and I have close to 8 lb of it left.

    I was able to see two nodes very distinctly with the IMR 4350, and selected the more moderate load as it still gave 2700 fps and would be easier on both the barrel and the cases. My rifle and scope setup includes a scope rail that has 25 MOA built in, plus I have 55 MOA available in the scope. Using the Hornady online ballistics calculator for my specific Hornady bullet, it shows that I have more than enough MOA beyond my current 100 yard zero to go to 1000 yards with this setup and this load.

    However, despite the care with which I am assembling the cartridges, the muzzle velocity SD is 14.6 and SE is 58, which I'm told is not really very good. I can understand why it is not very good, given the long ranges I want to be able to shoot. But, as I said, there is no other powder choice available to me currently, and I also cannot change bullets, as the Hornady 140g ELD Match I would like to try is totally unavailable at any Canadian supplier I have found. So, I will need to persevere with what I have for the time being until the supply situation improves.

    Jim G
     

    JimGnitecki

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    Sort of wondering the purpose of this thread when almost everything suggested gets refuted by “my f-class buddy”

    there is often a lot positive to be said for picking a single source and going with it....so, what’s this thread for?

    Don't underestimate my F-Class buddy. Although he now has both eyesight and mobility issues, he has a TON of F-Class experience, and he has won provincial championships here in Canada. He's also been my best friend since about Grade 10 in high school 55 years ago.

    As for single sources: They can be excellent, but getting info from multiple sources usually trumps any single source, especially when your interests are broader than one specific discipline.

    Jim G
     

    JimGnitecki

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    That has to be one of the more dense statements I have seen in a while.

    yeah, that’s the ticket....intentional ignorance.

    Be a little gentler. :) I wish Seymour Fish had been more specific. I SUSPECT he might be overreacting to Bryan Litz's latest focus. Or, he might be saying what at least 2 other good shooters have told me recently: Sometimes loads with unimpressive SD and SE nevertheless shoot really, really well. I personally cannot understand how that can happen for LONG RANGE loads, since a small change in muzzle velocity SHOULD show up as vertical string, but since I am still learning, and certainly not very experienced, what do I know?

    Maybe Seymour Fish would be willing to elaborate? . . .

    Jim G
     

    Baron23

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    Don't underestimate my F-Class buddy.
    I am not underestimating him....I dunno him and F-class is very challenging.

    My point...sort of useless point....is that for seems like almost all input, you tend to reject it and cite your F-class buddy. So, if you have confidence in him, go with what he says.

    As for single source or multiple....I shot competitive skeet for a few decades. Go to any club and watch a new person show up and ask for advise and they will get 5 different answers from 5 different people. "Shoot with your lower body" "No, shoot straight up" "look back to the window" "no, look back part way off of the barrel", etc, etc, etc.

    So, its very helpful to have one coach you listen to until you are smart enough in the discipline to know better or know what works for you.

    As for multiple sources trumping any single source....yeah? And when they don't agree you what...chase your tail in a circle. Just look at the threads on whether a velocity flat spot exists in reality or not. Its been quite active with a lot of VERY different and very strongly held views....and they cannot be all right.

    But, you do you, brother. Its all good and its just an internet forum :cool:

    Cheers
     

    Baron23

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    Sometimes loads with unimpressive SD and SE nevertheless shoot really, really well.
    And that is because of....wait for it...statistics. ES and SD of small groups (like 3 shots) are not statistically significant. The numbers are BS. You can reshoot the very same ammo with the same small group size and end up with very different results....ask me how I know! haha

    So, looking at these figures of merit for these small group sizes is misleading and can give you indications of performance that really arn't there. Small data sets can show bad ES/SD or really good ES/SD and most of all of which will converge on some actual statistics for the load if you keep expanding the data set size. With small group sizes, what you think you see ain't really there. Don't pay attention to the man behind the curtain. haha

    So, we do what we can practically do and that is small size data sets. Just don't put too much credence into the resulting numbers....I personally subscribe to the proposal that "velocity nodes" or flat spots are just an artifact of the signal being lost in the noise when the signal isn't strong enough (enough data points in the set).

    As for being more kind....this is the fella who told you to not pay attention to anyone who mentions statistics....ah, like Standard Deviation, maybe?

    Now, I'm not an experienced metallic reloader. Just ain't. But I did get an engineering degree in a previous century and still have a very passing familiarity with statistics and statistics is exactly what we are talking about with these data sets. This is no different that structuring a reliability test or qualification test, for example, and having to determine the minimum data set needed for validity. Same stuff....that I really only dimly remember.

    Good luck.
     
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    Seymour Fish

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    Your reading comprehension is terrible.

    People are typically saying 1 shot velocity ladders don’t work. Most of the time, no one is taking aim at POI ladder tests as that’s a completely other topic.

    Also, if Alex Wheeler thinks he needs 3 shots per charge weights and not one, I guess he can’t “shoot” since you seem to think you only need one.
    DT, glad you could come out to play. Your bias is showing, as well as your lack of reading comprehension. Did you miss the part about 3-shot ladders at 1000 accidentally or ??? Alex Wheeler understands positive compensation. Cortina’s tuning method at 100, for 1000 yd F Open, works for him. Saw that in person pulling his targets at the 2014 Tx State 1000 tx ChMpionship. Check Tony Boyer’s book for tuning to eliminate wind sensitivity.
     

    jpcowboy

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    I know that there is disagreement about FL sizing versus neck sizing, and that some excellent champion shooters say to do full length sizing. BUT, those shooters are using custom-made dies and custom chambered rifles, made specifically to match each other. I have a production rifle and production Redding dies. And my F-Class buddy does neck sizing, gets excellent results, AND gets very long life out of his Lapua cases. I am following his lead.

    I do have the body die for use when I will need to use it, just as he does.

    And remember, my cartridges loaded using neck sized cases do chamber perfectly with no issues. Accuracy is great, and no pressure signs.

    Why assume there is a problem?

    Jim G
     

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    Seymour Fish

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    And that is because of....wait for it...statistics. ES and SD of small groups (like 3 shots) are not statistically significant. The numbers are BS. You can reshoot the very same ammo with the same small group size and end up with very different results....ask me how I know! haha

    So, looking at these figures of merit for these small group sizes is misleading and can give you indications of performance that really arn't there. Small data sets can show bad ES/SD or really good ES/SD and most of all of which will converge on some actual statistics for the load if you keep expanding the data set size. With small group sizes, what you think you see ain't really there. Don't pay attention to the man behind the curtain. haha

    So, we do what we can practically do and that is small size data sets. Just don't put too much credence into the resulting numbers....I personally subscribe to the proposal that "velocity nodes" or flat spots are just an artifact of the signal being lost in the noise when the signal isn't strong enough (enough data points in the set).

    As for being more kind....this is the fella who told you to not pay attention to anyone who mentions statistics....ah, like Standard Deviation, maybe?

    Now, I'm not an experienced metallic reloader. Just ain't. But I did get an engineering degree in a previous century and still have a very passing familiarity with statistics and statistics is exactly what we are talking about with these data sets. This is no different that structuring a reliability test or qualification test, for example, and having to determine the minimum data set needed for validity. Same stuff....that I really only dimly remember.

    Good luck.
    Baron, Thanks for the Shit. You have just made my case. A chrono is useless for tuning a load in a platform with positive compensation. Proper use is to determine rough MV to plug into your ballistic program to get rough zeros at distances. You may yet get sufficient experience reloading metallic cartridges to separate the wheat from the chaff and prove statistics are the answer, if you don’t run out of time and $$$ first.
     

    Seymour Fish

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    Be a little gentler. :) I wish Seymour Fish had been more specific. I SUSPECT he might be overreacting to Bryan Litz's latest focus. Or, he might be saying what at least 2 other good shooters have told me recently: Sometimes loads with unimpressive SD and SE nevertheless shoot really, really well. I personally cannot understand how that can happen for LONG RANGE loads, since a small change in muzzle velocity SHOULD show up as vertical string, but since I am still learning, and certainly not very experienced, what do I know?

    Maybe Seymour Fish would be willing to elaborate? . . .

    Jim G
    Haven’t followed Litz in years, thus unaware of his current focus. Very bright guy. Talented shooter. Realize that a positive compensation tune is focused at a given fixed distance, though may shoot “ well enough “ across the board.
     

    LRCampos

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    To the OP.
    I have shot Benchrest in national and international competitions. I have shot a some PRS style matches. I have been shooting F-Class for the last 12 years, both national and international competitions.

    As you asked advice here a couple:

    1- Stop overthinking on what you have NOT yet done: shot a good numbers of PRS and F-Class matches;
    2- Go out and SHOOT in those PRS and F-Class matches.
    3- Learn from YOUR experience and listen what other much more experienced shooters in PRS and F-Class says.

    And THEN, think about what you have actually experienced at the Matches: the results of each shot (and overall), what you learned, what you listenned from others shooters, what you realized was not good on your equipment or load, what technique you are struggling or even want to test on the next match, learn while your are doing it and, mostly important: HAVE FUN ON SOMETIHNG YOU ARE ACTUALLY LIVING (DOING), and not imagined on your mind how it would work, or not work.

    Go out and shoot!!! Life is too short to spend some much time thinking to the point to not have time to actually do it.
     

    JimGnitecki

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    To the OP.
    I have shot Benchrest in national and international competitions. I have shot a some PRS style matches. I have been shooting F-Class for the last 12 years, both national and international competitions.

    As you asked advice here a couple:

    1- Stop overthinking on what you have NOT yet done: shot a good numbers of PRS and F-Class matches;
    2- Go out and SHOOT in those PRS and F-Class matches.
    3- Learn from YOUR experience and listen what other much more experienced shooters in PRS and F-Class says.

    And THEN, think about what you have actually experienced at the Matches: the results of each shot (and overall), what you learned, what you listenned from others shooters, what you realized was not good on your equipment or load, what technique you are struggling or even want to test on the next match, learn while your are doing it and, mostly important: HAVE FUN ON SOMETIHNG YOU ARE ACTUALLY LIVING (DOING), and not imagined on your mind how it would work, or not work.

    Go out and shoot!!! Life is too short to spend some much time thinking to the point to not have time to actually do it.
    I hear you, and agree, BUT:

    1. Due to COVID and applicable provincial resrictions on group activities during COVID, the next PRS or F-Class match within reasonable distance is not even tentatively scheduled until at least September, and may not happen at all this year. Our own local member range has had to forbid members from even bringing guests to the range, and has limited the maximum number of members present at any one time to 12.

    2. The match descriptions for past PRS matches included this wording:
    "With a Course of Fire spread across three days, competitors are tested with a array of challenges ranging from sub M.O.A. dots, target discrimination at 400m and movers at 300m - 600m. Additional matches involve shooting from roof tops, your spotters body and behind barricades."
    I'm pretty sure I am nowhere near ready to participate in THAT! Observe and learn and talk with as many shooters as I can initially, yes. but not actually shoot the match!

    I do not want to just sit around waiting. I will continue my learning, load development, and practicing at increasing ranges. Hopefully I won't ingrain any BAD habits in the absence of mentors.

    Jim G
     

    Graywolf.260

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    “And remember, my cartridges loaded using neck sized cases do chamber perfectly with no issues. Accuracy is great, and no pressure signs.

    Why assume there is a problem?”

    Jim G
    —————-

    The problems will crop up after 3 or 4 or 5 reloadings. Maybe more if you have a moderate load and Lapua brass but your bolt closure will eventually get tighter and you will need to full length size. At least that’s my experience using a collet neck sizing die. That said it is worth it for me in terms of minimizing brass prep time and still having results good enough for my purposes.
    I showed up at a 1000 y bench rest tournament a couple weeks ago with my TRG and a crappy rear bag and had a lot of fun, the BR guys were sort of amused but they were great and I learned a lot. Alex Wheeler complemented my group size on one round, he was just being nice lol.
     
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    JimGnitecki

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    “And remember, my cartridges loaded using neck sized cases do chamber perfectly with no issues. Accuracy is great, and no pressure signs.

    Why assume there is a problem?”

    Jim G
    —————-

    The problems will crop up after 3 or 4 or 5 reloadings. Maybe more if you have a moderate load and Lapua brass but your bolt closure will eventually get tighter and you will need to full length size. At least that’s my experience using a collet neck sizing die. That said it is worth it for me in terms of minimizing brass prep time and still having results good enough for my purposes.
    I showed up at a 1000 y bench rest tournament a couple weeks ago with my TRG and a crappy rear bag and had a lot of fun, the BR guys were sort of amused but they were great and I learned a lot. Alex Wheeler complemented my group size on one round, he was just being nice lol.

    Yes, I know that at some regular intervals, I will need to full length size, but as long as the cartridge is properly chamberable, I will neck size only, as that will minimize working of the case AND improve accuracy. My load is VERY moderate (2700 fps for 120g bullet) and I do have the 3-die Redding Type S die set that includes the body sizing die. :)

    Jim G
     

    phlegethon

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    Yes, I know that at some regular intervals, I will need to full length size, but as long as the cartridge is properly chamberable, I will neck size only, as that will minimize working of the case AND improve accuracy. My load is VERY moderate (2700 fps for 120g bullet) and I do have the 3-die Redding Type S die set that includes the body sizing die. :)

    Jim G
    I’m sure you alone are right about neck sizing when everyone else has abandoned it.

    I’m almost afraid to ask, but why are you running at such an incredibly low velocity? It seems likely ignition would be more consistent with something a bit higher. And the other benefits of speed.
     

    JimGnitecki

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    I’m sure you alone are right about neck sizing when everyone else has abandoned it.

    I’m almost afraid to ask, but why are you running at such an incredibly low velocity? It seems likely ignition would be more consistent with something a bit higher. And the other benefits of speed.
    There were 2 nodes in the ladder testing. The other one was at a higher velocity, but it was not as accurate when I tested using 25 rounds of each.

    Jim G
     

    phlegethon

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    There were 2 nodes in the ladder testing. The other one was at a higher velocity, but it was not as accurate when I tested using 25 rounds of each.

    Jim G
    You should try 25 more halfway in between. Might be surprised.
     

    JimGnitecki

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    You should try 25 more halfway in between. Might be surprised.
    I did. I tried every 0.3g for a total of 8 different powder levels initially. There were 2 clear nodes. Then I tested the 2 nodes against each other. No point in going finer to 0.1g differences around this lower node, at least yet, as the combination of rifle and ammunition currently is more accurate than I am. I don't shoot well enough consistently enough yet to be able to reliably discern any closer group sizes. The beest groups are already now 0.13" to 019", as a result of testing with different BTOs the other day. This rifle showed a preference for .085" into the lands with this powder load.

    The next improvement might come from the Protektor flattop rear bag with "heavy" sand that should arrive Monday, as currently neither of the 2 rear devices I have - Tab Gear STR8Laced Ultra Light Rear Bag and Accushot monopod - provide a controlling rear recoil slot, so the rifle consistently moves a bit sideways on recoil, probably due to my light cheek pressure on the stock. The Protektor bag should stop that.

    Jim G
     
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    phlegethon

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    I did. I tried every 0.3g for a total of 8 different powder levels initially. There were 2 clear nodes. Then I tested the 2 nodes against each other. No point in going finer to 0.1g differences around this lower node, at least yet, as the combination of rifle and ammunition currently is more accurate than I am. I don't shoot well enough consistently enough yet to be able to reliably discern any closer group sizes. The beest groups are already now 0.13" to 019", as a result of testing with different BTOs the other day. This rifle showed a preference for .085" into the lands with this powder load.

    The next improvement might come from the Protektor flattop rear bag with "heavy" sand that should arrive Monday, as currently neither of the 2 rear devices I have - Tab Gear STR8Laced Ultra Light Rear Bag and Accushot monopod - provide a controlling rear recoil slot, so the rifle consistently moves a bit sideways on recoil, probably due to my light cheek pressure on the stock. The Protektor bag should stop that.

    Jim G
    You loaded 25 rounds each every 0.3gr?
     

    phlegethon

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    No. First, I tested 10 different powder loads, 0.3 grains apart, 5 shots each, to find those 2 node loads. Then, I loaded 25 each of only those 2 node loads.

    Jim G
    Yeah, my point is just don’t assume that nodes are real. Try loading a large sample in between nodes. You might be surprised by the lack of difference.
     

    brianf

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    Yeah, my point is just don’t assume that nodes are real. Try loading a large sample in between nodes. You might be surprised by the lack of difference.
    I try and stay out reloading because there are just to many people stuck in their ways,

    but add what you said along with running a velocity lower than most and the data collected on previous range sessions should not be considered robust
     

    JimGnitecki

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    I try and stay out reloading because there are just to many people stuck in their ways,

    but add what you said along with running a velocity lower than most and the data collected on previous range sessions should not be considered robust
    That may be true, BUT, the rifles shoots really small groups. I am at a point where the rifle and ammo outshoot ME, so no point, at least yet, in trying to uncover even more accurate loads, since my shooting is not good enough to produce smaller groups if the rifle and ammo can. I need the shooting practice more right now than I need even better ammo.

    Jim G
     

    Seymour Fish

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    That may be true, BUT, the rifles shoots really small groups. I am at a point where the rifle and ammo outshoot ME, so no point, at least yet, in trying to uncover even more accurate loads, since my shooting is not good enough to produce smaller groups if the rifle and ammo can. I need the shooting practice more right now than I need even better ammo.

    Jim G
    Jim, It seems unlikely you understand how to judge a “node”. Please refer to Creighton Audette’s original article. Then read Cortina’s thread on accurate shooter. It should take no more than 15 rounds Total, including foulers, to find a node across 0.4-0.6 gr of powder.
     

    phlegethon

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    That is beyond some Fudd shit.
    No, nodes are more of a fudd thing. There’s no evidence they exist that doesn’t involve profound innumeracy.

    I am simply suggesting a little more testing. There is no reason to run a 6.5 Creedmoor at ~40,000 psi.
     
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    308pirate

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  • Apr 25, 2017
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    Some have failed to notice you are getting 0.3” at 100, thus their advice may be suspect. You are searching for a load that prints a 100 Yard group 50% taller than it is wide , with a node width of 0.4 grains of powder all with the same vertical centers with respect to poa, assuming your platform has some positive compensation. Work your loads using the exact equipment, hold, and position you intend to compete with. Skip over all the latest greatest bullshit and ignore anyone who mentions statistics. One-shot ladder tests work since you can shoot. No sufficiently wide node = change powder. Everything goes to the same elevation = platform has no positive compensation and will have to be tuned for tightest ES. Break down the center of your node in 0.1 grain increments of 3 rds each, and go straight to 1000. You want the least wind sensitivity, as that’s where more points are lost, thus you want a bit of vertical.

    LOLOLOL
     

    308pirate

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    To the OP.
    I have shot Benchrest in national and international competitions. I have shot a some PRS style matches. I have been shooting F-Class for the last 12 years, both national and international competitions.

    As you asked advice here a couple:

    1- Stop overthinking on what you have NOT yet done: shot a good numbers of PRS and F-Class matches;
    2- Go out and SHOOT in those PRS and F-Class matches.
    3- Learn from YOUR experience and listen what other much more experienced shooters in PRS and F-Class says.

    And THEN, think about what you have actually experienced at the Matches: the results of each shot (and overall), what you learned, what you listenned from others shooters, what you realized was not good on your equipment or load, what technique you are struggling or even want to test on the next match, learn while your are doing it and, mostly important: HAVE FUN ON SOMETIHNG YOU ARE ACTUALLY LIVING (DOING), and not imagined on your mind how it would work, or not work.

    Go out and shoot!!! Life is too short to spend some much time thinking to the point to not have time to actually do it.

    I've seen the likes of the OP before. They spend their entire life tinkering with guns and loads trying to find that "perfection" and trying to "be ready to compete". But it's all an excuse and smokescreen because they never intended to put themselves out where they need to perform in front of everyone.
     

    JimGnitecki

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    Jim, It seems unlikely you understand how to judge a “node”. Please refer to Creighton Audette’s original article. Then read Cortina’s thread on accurate shooter. It should take no more than 15 rounds Total, including foulers, to find a node across 0.4-0.6 gr of powder.
    I do understand. I just like to do TWO htings at once: (1) Find the nodes and (2) get some early indication of group size at that node by firing more than the minimum number of shots.

    Jim G
     

    brianf

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    I've seen the likes of the OP before. They spend their entire life tinkering with guns and loads trying to find that "perfection" and trying to "be ready to compete". But it's all an excuse and smokescreen because they never intended to put themselves out where they need to perform in front of everyone.
    Same here, Seen it a million times.

    nothing wrong with it either, do what you enjoy.

    If they would just say I love to tinker and want to shoot insane small groups at 100 but I do t have a PPC.
     

    JimGnitecki

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    I've seen the likes of the OP before. They spend their entire life tinkering with guns and loads trying to find that "perfection" and trying to "be ready to compete". But it's all an excuse and smokescreen because they never intended to put themselves out where they need to perform in front of everyone.

    That was a completely unwarranted cowardly attempt at a put-down. I've compete plenty in local matches that I was qualified to compete in, and enjoyed the process. But it would be stupid to try to enter an F-Class or PRS match right now because:
    - I have fired only a grand total of jst over 200 rounds through this brand new rifle
    - I don't even know the friggin rules of the game yet
    - I finally found the right "jump" at just my last range session (.0085" into the lands)

    and most of all:
    - There are NO F-Class or PRS matches anywhere in the province I live in right now because of COVID, you dumb a**.

    So, go spew your juvenile hate speech elsewhere, Loser.

    Jim G
     
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    Pete B

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    One thing that has always amazed me about the fireforming/neck sizing crew, or cult...... Some of the most accurate loads often seen, are ones that are for example, 6br to 6bra fireforming.
    How is that shit just ignored in the "my brass needs to be perfectly formed to my chamber".
    But hey, you do you. Just rediculous that people pass on this fallacy to others as some sort of secret sauce.
    Cheers
    Pete
     

    Seymour Fish

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    Oct 30, 2018
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    I do understand. I just like to do TWO htings at once: (1) Find the nodes and (2) get some early indication of group size at that node by firing more than the minimum number of shots.
    Jim, time and $ are finite. Bore condition will come into the equation at a certain point, and confound your results. Do you know how many accurate rounds you get before cleaning is required ? How many fouling rounds before the fiddle comes back in after cleaning ?
    Jim G
     

    JimGnitecki

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    I have only fired a couple hundred rounds through the rifle since brand new a few weeks ago (258 rounds as of right this moment). I have not ever yet fired more than 50 rounds in one range session. F-Class will ultimately require me to fire 70 rounds before cleaning I believe.

    I use Wipe-Out to clean the bore, applying it and letting it sit for at least 7 hours, and then nylon brushing and patching the barrel. The barrel seems to clean up easily and completely.

    There is no "fouling shot" required. The first shot seems to go to the normal and consistent POA.

    Through testing of different amounts of "jump", I have determined that the rifle likes .0085" into the lands, at least at this point in its early life.

    Jim G
     
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    HogsLife

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  • Nov 28, 2018
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    I agree that a fully specialized F-Class rifle might not be suitable for PRS, but I don't have a fully specialized F-Class rifle.

    Attached is a photo of my rifle. Note the Harris bipod. I also have the Rempel bipod for F-Class that mounts on the Picatinny rail visible in the photo rearward of the Harris. The Rempel bipod is a staple in F-Class shooting for folks who prefer it over a rest (My F-Class bnuddy, who has won several Provincial championships, uses one), and mine mounts and dismounts in seconds off that Picatinny.

    Yes, my rifle might not be suitable for a shooter who is focused on F-Class only, but it is fine for my anticipated level of shooting.

    The scope difference is not a deal killer.I used my Vortex 15-60 x 52 SFF scope at widely different magnificaitons, and can estimate range pretty well with my MOA-marked reticle.

    My "stock" is actually an MDT aluminum chassis covered with polymer and disguised to look "conventional". It is plenty rugged. The bottom surface of the toe is FLAT, level (not tapered upward towards the front) and 1.25" wide, which means it will slide nicely in a flattop rear bag (The rear Picatinny dismounts easily (remove 2 bolts in the sling stud holes). It is not set up for prone shooting only (The 0.25" groups I've already shot have been off the bench, not prone).

    My action uses standard AICS magazines. F-Class allows you to have the EMPTY mag in place, and single feed loading, required by the rules, is super easy and 100% reliable with the empty mag in place.

    Jim G

    Fact is this, why are you getting into PRS? To win? To get sponsored? Or to better yourself as a shooter? FT/R same?

    Hopefully it’s the latter. And if it is, then your only focus is improve and learn. If you wanted to, you could shoot PRS with a Rem 700 308 with no DBM and no muzzle brake. Are your gonna win? Probably not. Will Your improve? Absolutely. And that’s the point.

    So run what ya brung.and just do you
     
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