Terminal effects of 5.56

[Rovieairto]

Re: Terminal effects of 5.56

Thanks for clearing that up.
It's the same silly "rules" of organized combat but with a different name.
We're supposed to line up in an open field 50 yards away from the enemy and volley fire on command etc..................

 

[LongShot94]

Re: Terminal effects of 5.56

I pretty sure but not 100% sure that we can use any round we want to right now because we arnt at war with a standing military.

 

[ganyana]

Re: Terminal effects of 5.56

America and its NATO allies are involved in 'police action' in Afganistan and Iraq. OTM or frangible ammo is perfectly legal. The trouble is you cannot always determin you will only shoot bad guys who are not behind cover.

Except for specialist teams taking down a house or some such, general issue ammo must also perform against various forms of 'cover'. The IMI OTM 55grn ammo we were issued worked great on people in the open, but wouldn't go through even quite small trees and wouldn't go through a car door if the windo was down. For the type of actions we were engaged in, the 5,56 OTM ammo was perfectly satisfactory for the specialist teams. For general purpose use in Africa...not it wasn't.

 

[Rovieairto]

Re: Terminal effects of 5.56

The penetration of most OTM projo's is poor.
I've never seen any that had even descent penetration.
Most FMJ penetrate surprisingly well.
There was a lot of initial confusion concerning the use of HPBT ammunition and I remember that much of it was withheld early on in Afghanistan because of confusion over the use of hollow point projectiles (namely the 77 SMK). It was decided that the name would be changed to "open tip match" to abate some of this confusion.
I've been told that when fighting terrorists, there are no ammunition restrictions that need to be abided by.

There are often conflicting requirements for a projectile.
That's why I see the future of military projo's moving toward high BC, long FMJ designs that rely on tumbling, and not temperamental fragmentation (FMJ), for their primary wounding mechanism.
Energy retention comes from the high BC and not raw horsepower that the soldier has to carry and wield.
Penetration will be enhanced at all ranges.
Efficiency of cartridges should improve.

Again, all opinion.

 

[decodeddiesel]

Re: Terminal effects of 5.56

I would like to add my experience serving in the 101st Airborne in Iraq for 2 years. Albeit I did not see any shotgun wounds, and all of the pistol wounds I witnessed were from ball rounds, I did see more than my fair share of hits from rifle rounds both from 5.56x45 and 7.62x51.

I will tell you this, and it is echoed by many reputable trainers and experts in terminal ballistics. Pistol bullets punch holes and rifle rounds tear shit apart. Do not discount the effectiveness of the 5.56 round when firing a suitable OTM projectile like 75gr TAP or 77gr MK262. I witnessed numerous hits to enemies with MK262 and every time the bullet fragmented and the damage was severe and immediately incapacitating. The wounds produced by these hits are equally impressive and horrifying. The widespread damage from a COM hit with MK262 almost always leads to the individual passing away very quickly.

Conversely though I have witnessed close range hits from M855 (standard issue 62gr "Green Tip")fragment, and fail to fragment. One that comes to mind is an insurgent who was involved with an ambush on a patrol I was on. He stepped out of a doorway and fired an AK at our door-less unarmored HMMWV from a range of about 10 meters. The vehicle commander in the passanger seat fired 3 rounds at him and he crumbled. Numerous other insurgents were hit, and one of our guys was hit in the leg from an AK round that skipped off of the pavement and into his leg. We cleared the kill zone and then headed to the local hospital as we knew the insurgent we hit would be headed there for treatment. Sure enough about 30 minutes later my doorway gunner walks in under his own power with a hit to the lower torso. Turns out the round failed to fragment and or hit any vital organs. After the hospital staff did their triage him we "arrested" him. There he was though smoking a cigarette and chilling out no more than an hour after being hit ta close range with an M4.

I have also seen a fellow who was stealing propane get shot in the leg in an attempt to stop him. It was an upper thigh hit (just about in the ass) on a running target at about 90-110 meters. It fragmented and later the docs found that a chunk of the fragment went up through his pelvic region and hit his renal artery. He bled out in about 2 minutes.

http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=19881

http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=19878

http://www.m4carbine.net/showthread.php?t=26905

 

[Rovieairto]

Re: Terminal effects of 5.56

Thanks decodeddiesel for taking the time to post that, and thank you for your service.

 

[LawnMM]

Re: Terminal effects of 5.56

I'm not military, but I do work in law enforcement and have had many a conversation with both mil and le folks about the AR15/M16 platform.

Talk to any of the military guys, the 77gr ammo is putting people down hard in the sandbox. We use 69gr ammo in our ARs. Let's not lose focus either, shot placement will trump caliber and ballistic potential every time.

 

[Emouse]

Re: Terminal effects of 5.56

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 762slinger</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Normally I wouldn't jump in on military ballistics because I'd be thrown to the wolves, but I'm going to take my chances this time.

The NATO 5.56 round, and more specifically the US military issued M-16 and M4 platforms, are designed for specifically (purposely) suited twists. The twist ratio and the weight of the 5.56 NATO round (think it's roughly 65-75 grain) requires a very specific twist to achieve a tumble upon impact.</div></div>
Nope. The current NATO 5.56 ball round is 62 grains. The twist rate has nothing to do with terminal ballistics and everything to do with external ballistics. The rate is determined as that needed to stabilize the longer tracer round that was adopted by NATO roughly in conjuction with the introduction of the SAW. Twist rate has nothing at all to do with the terminal ballistics.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Some of you may recall reading or seeing M-16's that had 1 in 7 and 1 in 9 twists. A 1 in 7 twist has one purpose: to be a destructive mechanism.</div></div>
The M16/M4 FOW do not have 1:9 twist rates. The 1:7 twist has one purpose: to stabilize the newer tracer rounds.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Nearly any rifle round can be loaded to tumble, </div></div>
Change that to spitzer-type projo and you're definitely right. </div></div>

Complete BS.

The standard NATO SS109 round is not a tracer round. It has a penertrator core and requires a revised compromised twist rate to stabilise the longer heavier bullet.

Some nations (Israel/RSA etc) still have old M193 type ball and indeed matching rifles/twist rates of that era.

 

[LVdubbin]

Re: Terminal effects of 5.56

Some good advice in this thread.

 

[Wolf22]

Re: Terminal effects of 5.56

interesting discussion.

wonder if there ever will be a day that they remove the 'useful' ROE/Geneva mess and let good people take care of things the right way, the first time....

 

[X-fan]

Re: Terminal effects of 5.56

No experience with shooting people (a huge thank you to you guys that have served), but I do know that the 556 with standard ball is a piss poor hunting cartidge (multi shot at best) until you load that bad boy with a 60gr Barnes TSX or Nosler Partition...Then look out!
My buddies and I have shot 4 black bears trying it the little TSX and the load is flat devastating!

Penetration....Is not an issue...We have yet to recover one and the last bear was near 400 pounds!

Other than placement, bullet performance matters most.

 

[X-fan]

Re: Terminal effects of 5.56

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: eleaf</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: 500grains</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Mr. Schmidt, Have you seen this?

Note that .223 ball tends to penetrate 10 inches before tumbling, which means it would pass through an average man's chest, front to back before tumbling.

Hence the advent of expanding bullets.

http://ammo.ar15.com/project/Self_Defense_Ammo_FAQ/index.htm#.223 </div></div>

That chart mentions nothing of inches. That chart is in CM, which means closer to 5" give or take.
</div></div>

Errr...No.

30cm = 11.8 inches