- Thread starter plong
- Start date
that's correct
I'm glad you brought your dumb insults and your stupid statements out to the main chat for all to see.
For in your stupid insults you prove what I have been saying all along. We will go with your claim that I was on a B team and unable to get 77 gr.
Yeah, I spent a few months on a B team and I bet you have too. Pretty much all of us do at some point.
But if at any point in time any SF guy ever requested 77gr and wasn't able to get it, it proves my point. So thanks for proving my point for me and showing that you were wrong all along.
If you need more help understanding this, maybe one of these other guys can draw you a picture.
I'm absolutely positive if I did a google search I could find several things to say anything I want, no matter the truth.
Those sites you posted are just repeating what SIG told them, VERBATIM.
Fuck that.
Weigh an empty 308 case yourself.
Now tell me how much of that weight cam be trimmed off while making a safe to use case of the same dimensions out of a different material.
Remember, the powder is still going to be there along with the primer and the bullet, only the material making the case has changed.
40% my ass.
Up to... not all!!!
It depends on the cartridge, the percentages vary. .50 cal it’s about a 23% weight savings, or 7 pounds out of 100 rounds. Something like 556 where the case makes up 55 to 60% of the whole cartridge weight you’re gonna have a higher percentage with it.
Assuming a 30% reduction in a 7.62 cartridge. A 7.62 case is around 180, cartridge around, 380. 30% of the cartridge weight (380)(.30) is 114. 180-114 is 66grain. Which equal a 63.5% weight savings in the polymer over brass case only. As a ballpark guess that sounds very possible. Ie polymer being much lighter than brass!
I noticed you keep making all these claims of how it’s not possible but you aren’t listing any examples or information proving it. Sounds like those Oxy’s are starting to effect your cognitive ability.
Bottom line is polymer ammo is lighter, and the different cartridge sizes, is going to effect the over all percentages.
If you need something to occupy your self you can find bags of dicks on Amazon, likely get free shipping too...
I have seen it plenty, it was actually one of the biggest complaints in Afghanistan. The 5.56 NATO out of 10.5" to 16" barreled rifles starts to become ineffective (real world) out past 500 meters. Various deployed elements tried different solutions like the SCAR.
The M5 addresses two problems, range and a round that better defeats body armor. The tradeoffs is that with the new Vortex optic is that it is heavier then the M4 and you carry less ammo.
For me they are different tools and would be mission dependent. If I am operating inside of 300 meters, I would prefer the M4 with more ammo. If I was in the desert or any kind of open expanse I would prefer the range.
Lowest qualified bidder......that's all it is. It's probably the same reason they got the sidearm contract, a price ($207 per gun) well below any of the other competitors and better ammunition manufacturing scoring. It's all about the $, even after the Military had to send Sig packing with an Engineering Change Request and ECP to fix the drop safe issue they still gave them the contract.
I'd guess Sig was willing to make sure they underbid everyone to get the military contact, they knew it would likely drive future contracts and with their marketing hype and tons of civilian sales.
Glock was the only one that scored arguably similar in the handgun testing, but glock scored much lower in the ammunition section and their bid price was 60% higher than Sig's. If you look at the other weapons submitted, none of the other American companies had a shot and I'd imagine the military would favor a US company for procurement. S&W submitted a plain M&P, nothing modular about it. STI/Detonics had to withdraw when Detonics found themselves in a lawsuit over the design. Ruger made the American American pistol based on the specs but never even submitted for consideration.
In the actual handgun testing rankings for the bid samples, Glock did better than Sig overall but it was close. However, even without the ammunition factored in, Sig was massively cheaper so the Glock was never going to win.
The ammunition being combined into these weapons contracts muddies the water on the weapon's performance. Now it's not just about the weapon, it's about how much, how fast, and how cheap they can make ammo too.
I'd guess Sig was willing to make sure they underbid everyone to get the military contact, they knew it would likely drive future contracts and with their marketing hype and tons of civilian sales.
Glock was the only one that scored arguably similar in the handgun testing, but glock scored much lower in the ammunition section and their bid price was 60% higher than Sig's. If you look at the other weapons submitted, none of the other American companies had a shot and I'd imagine the military would favor a US company for procurement. S&W submitted a plain M&P, nothing modular about it. STI/Detonics had to withdraw when Detonics found themselves in a lawsuit over the design. Ruger made the American American pistol based on the specs but never even submitted for consideration.
In the actual handgun testing rankings for the bid samples, Glock did better than Sig overall but it was close. However, even without the ammunition factored in, Sig was massively cheaper so the Glock was never going to win.
The ammunition being combined into these weapons contracts muddies the water on the weapon's performance. Now it's not just about the weapon, it's about how much, how fast, and how cheap they can make ammo too.
Last edited:
Dude, get the dick out yo mouth.
I explained it to you slowly....you know, like for a child.
You still do not have the slightest bit of understanding.
Lets slow this down to simpleton levels so you *might* get a grasp (I'm not saying you will, but here's to hoping).
Bullet weight is actually 3 grains heavier (147 for the 308 vs. 150 for the 277 edge)
Primer, same weight.
Powder, same weight (assuming, it's probably a bit higher for the edge, we don't know as of yet).
The only difference is the case.....lemme say that again THE ONLY DIFFERENCE IS THE CASE.
Did you get that ?????
They are claiming a loaded round of ammo is 40% lighter.
Where is this miraculous weight difference coming from eh ?
So SIG phanboi...
Describe to me how all this amounts to a somehow magical weight reduction ?
Yea, you can't, but you'll post all sorts of irrelevant BS trying to back up your (and SIG's) claims.
Bullshit and smoke, that's all you and SIG have.
Admit it, phanboi.
Oh goody, the fool still didn't take the numerous hints he has been given that he is clearly wrong. That's ok, maybe if I spell it out so even a moron can understand, maybe he will too. I'll even include a picture of his words this time so we can all enjoy how stupid his position is.
Recap: I said 77gr was good but not all SOF could get it all the time and most of the military couldn't get it at all and didn't even know what it was. Pretty simple point... Not simple enough for everyone though.
So Retardski here goes into this opposing viewpoint of how 77gr is alloted for SOF so I'm wrong.
I say there is a difference between it being allocated versus it being available (because there is a big difference).
So he says I ordered it once and didn't get it so I suck (quick math is at least once per quarter for 5 years so 20 times but how could Retardski possibly know what 5x4 is.
The cherry on top is he sent me numerous messages including the one below where he straight up said his ASC (Advanced Skills Company, the training company for Group) sucks up all the 77 gr for his Special Forces Group and the Operational Battalions can't get it. WHICH IS EXACTLY MY POINT!!! BUT HE STILL CAN'T PUT 2 AND 2 TOGETHER EVEN THOUGH HIS TINY BRAIN HAS ALL THE INFO NECESSARY!!!
This guy is Grade A internet right here.
Recap: I said 77gr was good but not all SOF could get it all the time and most of the military couldn't get it at all and didn't even know what it was. Pretty simple point... Not simple enough for everyone though.
So Retardski here goes into this opposing viewpoint of how 77gr is alloted for SOF so I'm wrong.
I say there is a difference between it being allocated versus it being available (because there is a big difference).
So he says I ordered it once and didn't get it so I suck (quick math is at least once per quarter for 5 years so 20 times but how could Retardski possibly know what 5x4 is.
The cherry on top is he sent me numerous messages including the one below where he straight up said his ASC (Advanced Skills Company, the training company for Group) sucks up all the 77 gr for his Special Forces Group and the Operational Battalions can't get it. WHICH IS EXACTLY MY POINT!!! BUT HE STILL CAN'T PUT 2 AND 2 TOGETHER EVEN THOUGH HIS TINY BRAIN HAS ALL THE INFO NECESSARY!!!
This guy is Grade A internet right here.
Attachments
Wow a bunch of Green Booways being ego freaks, who would’ve thought?
I have read a fair amount about this new round, and it looks great. 80,000 psi is capable because the first portion of the round is stainless steel, and it can handle the high pressure. They are saying slightly over 3,000 fps is currently working with a 140 grain bullet.
One of the reasons for a new round is that many enemies are now using soft body armor. Apparently it can be purchased on the street for $200 in the middle east. I think Sig did a great job developing this round, and it will save American lives. The rifle itself will be 2 lbs. heavier, but far more deadly.
One of the reasons for a new round is that many enemies are now using soft body armor. Apparently it can be purchased on the street for $200 in the middle east. I think Sig did a great job developing this round, and it will save American lives. The rifle itself will be 2 lbs. heavier, but far more deadly.
or we could fight wars the way they are meant to be fought and annihilate our enemies ala Le May style and not worry about the little things. I kid but I don't
The bullets they plan to use in the .277 Fury/6.8x51 are lighter than used in the 308.
It is new cheap hard armor that they are concerned about. Any high power rifle rounds will zip right through soft IIIA armor.
it's incredibly shortsighted to worry about body armor as the technology will never beat it in both a practical sense and cost. For every measure, there is a counter measure. I'd rather 200 more f22s, more training, and better tactics
I think 80,000 psi might be the reason
The Army requirement was to push a 6.8 bullet at a specific high velocity. And that's why we saw different approaches to how to do that: SIG goes normal barrel but special case to handle higher than normal pressures, and GD went with a bullpup so they could use a longer barrel with normal chamber pressures to hit that velocity requirement.
As a Brit I am amazed, what is your military thinking ? At first I thought great at last a round with knockdown power, then I started looking at the round ! 80,000 psi really ! barrels are going to be chewed up and actions battered, I'd love to see a machine gun barrel after a 200 round belt has been rock and rolled though it. Ammo production is going to be complicated to say the least, a stainless steel base married to a brass case that's really going to help wartime production isn't it, not to mention the increased cost. Do you really expect NATO to adopt this ?
