Gunsmithing The elusive FFL

[cordovan]

Been doing my own hobby gunsmithing for awhile and finally getting to where it's time to get the manufactures FFL.

What has been the process / experience of others here who have done so? Is it really as bad as some of the stories I've heard. Did you get a visit from BATF? The paperwork doesn't seem to be the most user friendly.....

 

[GasLight]

Re: The elusive FFL

I don't think there is anything bad about it. I have been visited for the initial inspection, they go over what they expect and try to explain things. I have also been audited, and I treated the field agent with respect and was treated the same way back.

I would ask your local branch if you really need a manufacturer's license on top of a standard gunsmithing FFL.

Dave

 

[CS223]

Re: The elusive FFL

First, verify that you can operate your business at the intended location. If your local municipality issues business licenses, apply and obtain that first, if they don't, get a letter from the governing authority stating that no business license is required. Helps to have a copier, they will want a copy of your DL, business license. If you lease or rent a place, they will want a letter stating you have permission to operate that type of business at that location. Also get what ever your state requires for collecting and remitting sales tax. Order the license package from the ATF website, fill it out,get your prints & photo. Mail in your check. Yes, ATF will be out to visit you, usually within 30 days. They will review the regulations with you check list style, provide you with some starter forms, signage, & answer any questions. They will take as little or long as you like. You'll get your license in 30-45 days. Then there is the whole excise tax process if you build more than 50 guns a year.

 

[JimT]

Re: The elusive FFL

Plan to wait up to six months to get your FFL. Not being sour grapes, just what happened with mine.

 

[dsink]

Re: The elusive FFL

I put in for mine in Jan. and finally received them in April, granted its been several years ago since I got mine. Yes they will pay you a visit and go over everything with you.

You should be fine getting your 01 Dealer FFLs. Probably not going to need the 07.

 

[Immorteq]

Re: The elusive FFL

My understanding (or the understanding of the agent who conveyed the info to me) may be wrong but, there's no down side to acquiring a manufacturer license as far as gunsmithing goes. Local code may restrict you but there seems to be some grey areas when it comes to 1911's and AR15 work and what constitutes manufacturing. It'd be good to get clarification from the proper channels before you decide to submit one type of app over the other if those platforms may be a substantial part of your business.

 

[cordovan]

Re: The elusive FFL

All good info!

Thanks much for the help.......

 

[JimT]

Re: The elusive FFL

The 07 is actually cheaper, which seems backwards.

If you are not going to buy guns to modify and then sell, then the 01 will do. If you intend to buy, enhance, and then sell, you will need the 07.

Some GS's got in big trouble over this issue.

 

[eddief]

Re: The elusive FFL

Took me about 5 months from start to finish for the 07FFL.

Not the fastest process, but painless. So far working with the BATF has been good, just do what they require paperwise and follow the rules.

The agent that visited me left me their cell# to call if I ever have any questions. I have called my agent a few times and they were more than helpful answering my questions. Actually, they were happy that I was asking instead of assuming, and then getting dinked come audit time.

 

[LRI]

Re: The elusive FFL

I'll tell you my experience:

First, it was pleasant. No Waco "remixes" here.


You fill out the paperwork. Get multiple copies, start with a pencil and double check everything prior to committing to ink.

Any discrepancies will only delay the process.

Place of business:

Ensure your zoned accordingly.
If leasing, your land lord will need to sign an endorsement saying he's ok with you plumbing guns on his property.

Fingerprints:

I did mine at the local PD. The FBI cards and the ones used by the PD's these days aren't in the same format. Most PD's use Motorola electronic scanners now.

It's not a big deal. Include a brief cover letter stating why the format doesn't match. They'll shuttle them through just fine as they are used to dealing with this.

The visit.

The agent is there to review procedure/requirements/your responsibility. It's a good thing as it gives a no BS answer to questions certain to be lingering in your head. Basically the most essential thing is the chain of custody. Gun comes in, gets logged, loiters around till you fix it, and then gets logged out to wherever it went. Don't EFF it up as your books are your life.

Manufacturing: I have an 07FFL which is for manufacturing. You qualify for this if you are taking a piece of steel and turning it into a receiver that will eventually go bang. If it needs a serial # you must have an 07 to legally manufacture, sell, etc.

If your gunsmithing in the traditional sense, meaning gun comes in, you fiddle with it, and then it goes out, you DON'T need an 07 FFL. The dealer license will suffice.

This is often debated, argued, etc. IF you go the 07 route you are subject to the ITAR; some bullshit treaty between a half dozen countries regarding importing/exporting guns. It's a $3500/year fee filed through the DoS.

The dealer license isn't subject to this last I knew.

Last:

The BATF is no longer a tax collection agency. They are dept of justice now. So, issues like excise tax etc for the most part are no longer a concern of theirs. NFA items like suppressors and whatnot and tax stamps are something I'm a little vague on as I don't deal in them or see them hardly at all.

Last,

Write your questions out LONG before the agent shows up. His time is valuable as they are often understaffed. Get in/get out is the way to do things.

You'll be audited up to once a year during regular business hours. They can do this on a "no knock" basis. Anything else is supposedly by appt unless your being investigated for selling guns to cartels, insurgents, etc.

It's not hard, took me about 6 months for mine. I held a security clearance through DoS which screws everything up when messing with guns as the FBI has your name in big red letters. Just be patient if this applies to you. Not a big deal.


Good luck and welcome.

C

 

[yourshoesareuntied]

Re: The elusive FFL

For gunsmith related activity's, A customer brings in a firearm for..(whatever),its going to take <24 hrs so it get logged in the book. My question is what information do I need from my customer
I heard one of the things I need is their ssn# ... I hope this was bad intel, I hate how many people think they need mine.

 

[bptactical]

Re: The elusive FFL

My process was very painless and seamless. I went ahead and got my LLC, State and City business license all in place before I submitted the application for my FFL. The only touchy spot I had was when I had to get my Chief of Police to sign off on my FFL app. He was a touch nervous because I am in a residential area (dual purpose zoning) as far as any sales go. I explained that I am not conducting sales at all, strictly gunsmithing. Once I got that clear he signed off no problem.
The field agent that did my interview was really informative and down to earth. I found it surprising that he seemed like he was really encouraging me to pursue retail sales. I told him I have no desire to sell firearms, just repairing/altering for the customer.
I think it took just shy of 4 months for the process.
I was a bit nervous as far as the 07 v 01 debate but in an e mail from the field investigations supervisor he explained it this way: If the work contracted is performed for an "end user" i.e. privately owned firearm than any work can be performed for said customer (as long as it is within legal limits) and not considered "Manufacturing". Work can be performed for a dealer as long as it is <span style="font-style: italic">repair</span> work on behalf of the dealer or the dealers customer and not considered "Manufacturing". If any work is performed for a dealer with the intent of enhancing/upgrading the firearm for resale then it is considered "Manufacturing" and the 07 is required.

 

[bptactical]

Re: The elusive FFL

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: The American</div><div class="ubbcode-body">For gunsmith related activity's, A customer brings in a firearm for..(whatever),its going to take <24 hrs so it get logged in the book. My question is what information do I need from my customer
I heard one of the things I need is their ssn# ... I hope this was bad intel, I hate how many people think they need mine. </div></div>

I think you got some questionable info.
From the way it was explained to me by the investigator that did my inspection, if you retain custody of the firearm any longer than the close of business the same day it was brought in it must be logged on the books. Example: If the customer drops it off for repair at 0800 and picks it up at 1700 the same business day then no log in is required. But if they drop it off at 1700 and pick it up at 0800 the next day it must be logged.
I am not aware of any SSN requirement, it is not even required on a 4473.

 

[LRI]

Re: The elusive FFL

You record the following in your logs. (known as the "Aquisition and Disposition" record)

Aquisition:

Manufacturer of the firearm
Model
Serial Number
Cartridge the gun is chambered for
Date it arrived
Name of person that brought it to you
Address of person that brought it to you

Disposition:

Name or person you released custody to
Date you released custody
Address of person you released custody to



I ginned up an Excel spreadsheet for all my AQ/DIS records. It's backed up on redundant hardrives both on site and off site through an online data storage service. Makes life very simple and easy. If/when I'm inspected I'll print it off and be done with the whole matter. I 100% inventory my books once a week just to stay on top of things. (the Monday morning chore)

I suggest anyone doing this do the same thing. It's just too easy to make an error. The BATF is like a bear sleeping. Tip toe past and he make look at you, then go back to sleep. Stomp around his house and when he wakes up and takes interest your life is liable to change abruptly.

I think most things are probably like that.

The biggest potential for "innocent mistakes" that I've encountered is when you fill out the 4473. The dates are closely scrutinized and it's easy to screw something up when the NICS check is delayed. This WILL BE closely reviewed by the agents. If it's one goof out of a 1000 4473's you might get away with a government butt chewing. If you sell 10 guns a year over the counter and have 50% of the documents screwed up then be prepared to answer uncomfortable questions, pay a fine, and possibly have your license suspended/revoked.

Dot your I's and cross the "T's"

Good luck, quit fussing, and just go get it done. So long as you don't beat your wife, sell dope or nuclear missiles to insurgents your going to be fine.