The first thing you need to know?

[Sterling Shooter]

Marksmanship begins with comprehension of sight alignment and trigger control; yet, to run with these concepts, and everything else that supports those principles, seems to me the shooter needs to know how to think critically. It appears, however, that some shooters know nothing about critical thinking, coming here with questions which, if they exercised their brains, they could answer without need to consult any. At any rate, I'm beginning to wonder whether the subject of critical thinking might be something to include in basic marksmanship training, since some shooters are not able to grasp shooter/target analysis. Perhaps, I'm not the only one thinking about this, or there may be training materials which cover critical thinking and I've just missed it. Any thoughts?

 

[Graham]

Re: The first thing you need to know?

Aristotle called it a 'deliberative faculty'. Wikipedia has a more expansive and less of a 'political' definition of it:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Critical_thinking

If critical thinking was a requirement for marksmanship there would far fewer marksmen. Besides, I'm not sure that either critical thinking or judgement - at least being any good at either - is something that can be formally taught.

To answer your question: Shot analysis might be something to touch on during basic marksmanship training.

But critical thinking is beyond the scope of a beginner class.

 

[Sterling Shooter]

Re: The first thing you need to know?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Graham</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Aristotle called it a 'deliberative faculty'. Wikipedia has a more expansive and less of a 'political' definition of it:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Critical_thinking

If critical thinking was a requirement for marksmanship there would far fewer marksmen. Besides, I'm not sure that either critical thinking or judgement - at least being any good at either - is something that can be formally taught.

To answer your question: Shot analysis might be something to touch on during basic marksmanship training.

But critical thinking is beyond the scope of a beginner class.

</div></div>

Merry Christmas Graham

And, thanks for the comments. Perhaps, I just need to force thinking though more questioning, An example, if the shot is called right in there but the strike is not where desired what is likely the source of error in a no-wind condition.

 

[9H_Cracka]

Re: The first thing you need to know?

The first thing you need to know about precision shooting is you are going to spend the rest of your shooting days trying to overcome millions of years of genetic programming every time you approach the trigger. You have to develop skills, both physical and mental, that override your genetic programming on how your body deals with loud noises and physical strikes.

Once that fact is understood, you can get on with programming your conscious mental and physical states to deliver a consistent POI for multiple shots from a firearm actively on absolutely every single shot.

 

[Sterling Shooter]

Re: The first thing you need to know?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: _9H_Cracka</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The first thing you need to know about precision shooting is you are going to spend the rest of your shooting days trying to overcome millions of years of genetic programming every time you approach the trigger. You have to develop skills, both physical and mental, that override your genetic programming on how your body deals with loud noises and physical strikes.

Once that fact is understood, you can get on with programming your conscious mental and physical states to deliver a consistent POI for multiple shots from a firearm actively on absolutely every single shot.</div></div>

I solved that problem using both ear plugs and muffs. This was a suggestion from an anthropologist/psychologist I used to work with. He made the suggestion after I told him I was so anxious when shooting opening matches from the standing position that I would sometimes just shoot to get it over with. Seems I was reacting to loud commands from the match director. When the noise of the match director was muffled all was well and my scores started to pick-up.

 

[9H_Cracka]

Re: The first thing you need to know?

Right-O Skip - you have all the answers. Ear muffs eliminate all felt recoil from a center fire rifle and pistol.

 

[Sterling Shooter]

Re: The first thing you need to know?

Never had a problem with recoil.

 

[BattleAxe]

Re: The first thing you need to know?

I won't pretend to be a marksmanship instructor but I have decades of experience training/certifying technical instructors in aviation, SCUBA, and industrial safety and my thoughts are...

When students ask seemingly dumb questions about a topic where the answers are right in front of them, its too easy for the instructor to assume laziness on the part of the student when in fact the instructor may be the problem.

Whether teaching marksmanship or underwater basket weaving, instructors have a tendency to pass off "technique" as procedure. In other words just because you can internalize information based on how you've learned or what works for you doesn't mean the student can.

Students will never think or learn like you and its accepted that when an instructor has 10 students, he also has to deal with...

10 levels of intelligence
10 different personalities
10 sets of personal problems
10 different motivation levels
10 different learning abilities
etc.

It's the instructor's job to teach to every student in the room at the <span style="text-decoration: underline">individual students level</span>, not your own. There are essentuially 3 types of instructors...

Instructors
Good instructors
Great instructors

The great one's understand all of this and can teach fish how to swim. Their teaching abilities come naturally and they're not teachers merely by title. Maybe one in 10 instructors become great. Being an expert at a task does not make someone a good instructor...it just gives them the foundation for it.

TIFWIW

 

[Greg Langelius *]

Re: The first thing you need to know?

One can think critically, but unless one understands the hows and whys, there are no criteria upon which to base such criticism.

When I teach marksmanship initially, I make it a matter of monkey see, monkey do. Once they get the rote part down, we cover the same material a second time, with the hows and whys added.

...And more times, with increasingly subtle subject matter in the forefront...

IMHO, unless the learner has some satisfaction to count on, they will not retain the attention span necessary to stick around for the hows and whys.

One may learn to shoot in a basic manner, but one cannot advance without critical thought; and that critical thought, while crucial, comes later for my learners.

Right now, my Granddaughter is my active learner. She knows just ebough to be safe on the line, establish and maintain a sight picture, breathe and squeeze properly. I do not yet trust her to shoot without vigilant coaching. Beyond that, nothing; but she has shot in her first competition, and was at least competitive.

She's not ready to think the subject out critically, but she's beginning to ask the questions. This indicates to me that the ground is fertile for the hows and whys; and upon that, to build the critical thought faculty.

It's my considered opinion that such instruction follows a logical series of steps, and that this particular series is more efficient and effective; because it is based on the self perceived needs of the learner, rather than those of the instructor.

I learned my instruction techniques in Wood Badge Adult Scouting Education, which borrows heavily from the Marxist 'Manager of Learning Experiences' technique, and is learner-based and learner-paced.

I later became a Scouting Adult Leadership Instructor, District Adult Leadership Training Chairman, and Council Commissioner for Adult Training myself.

Marx had some good ideas and some bad ideas, and Scouting is not afraid to pay credit where it's due.

Greg

 

[Sterling Shooter]

Re: The first thing you need to know?

The first session of the USAMU's SDM class begins with " if i could fire this rifle remotely what would happen". There are as many different answers to this question as there are students; yet, only one answer when the student is a critical thinker.

 

[Force_Multiplier]

Re: The first thing you need to know?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sterling Shooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The first session of the USAMU's SDM class begins with " if i could fire this rifle remotely what would happen". There are as many different answers to this question as there are students; yet, only one answer when the student is a critical thinker.</div></div>

the answer is.. "we'd all be out of a job"

 

[Tripwire]

Re: The first thing you need to know?

Interesting....

So many great minds talking about a fundamentally necessary concept...yet fail to define it so the uninitiated can follow along.

No offense intended, but that's not how you teach.......

The closest is 9H's opinion, but even that sorta misses the mark.

To think critically about shooting, one must understand, by thinking critically, that the concept is not defined by thinking of all the critical aspects of shooting as many would assume, but rather to be critical of one's own mistakes and merge that with the ability to make a correlation of that with failure, and then make a correction until success is achieved. This applies to the coached as well as the uncoached.

It all starts with the basic, and rare, skills of humility, self improvement, and a splash of analytical thought......

Oh, and I was under the impression that ear plugs <span style="font-style: italic">and</span> muffs in tandum was shooting 101, to fend off flinch and other bothersome demons...did that long ago, all by myself, and without the help of an anthropologist/psychologist to figure it out.

Again, no offense intended, just sayin'........

 

[Andrew Blubaugh]

Re: The first thing you need to know?

I don't think any marksmanship class has the time to include a detailed block on critical thinking. The fact is if a student doesn't understand the fundamentals, will they grasp critical thinking? I don't think so.

The first few years of my LE instructor career I found a serious gap in my knowledge base or so I thought. Basically I wasn't getting across to a lot of female officers. Then I found a book by Vicki Farnum "Teaching Women to Shoot". My wife saw me reading this and flipped out. Initially she thought it was some sexist bs but she started reading it and immediately related with the teaching points... My wife is also a cop. Much like what Battle Axe said, you are dealing with a variety of learning styles and levels of intelligence. As an instructor you need to have multiple ways to explain something.

One of my teaching mantras is "Know the why". When I was a young Marine PFC and being told to do something because that is the way we have always done it. That is BS, the student should have a good grasp on why they do something. For example, staying straight behind the rifle. The last class I instructed just before the holidays was a group of experienced military shooters. Initially guys did not believe they would spot their own shots with a carbine until mid week when they were shooting movers at 300 and banging small steel targets at 300-600 yards.

I guess in a way "knowing the why" is similar to critical thinking but the difference is one way is a layman term and the other one is complicating the matter by trying to make the process more analytical. The truth is the student needs to be a good student and avoid going through the motions. As instructors we must know what kind of standard we want our students to reach and insure we are not expecting too much out of the student.

 

[BattleAxe]

Re: The first thing you need to know?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: cowboy_bravo</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I don't think any marksmanship class has the time to include a detailed block on critical thinking. The fact is if a student doesn't understand the fundamentals, will they grasp critical thinking? I don't think so.
. </div></div>
You read my mind. I've taught courses that were 6 months long and didn't have time for stuff like that. Even still critical thinking is something developed over a lifetime. Some have it and some don't. I imagine it can be "exercised" but I'd be reluctant to think it could be taught within the confines of a marksmanship course. Students pay money with the expectation they'll learn to shoot and if you fail to accomplish that task that student may be your last.

 

[Tripwire]

Re: The first thing you need to know?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BattleAxe</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: cowboy_bravo</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I don't think any marksmanship class has the time to include a detailed block on critical thinking. The fact is if a student doesn't understand the fundamentals, will they grasp critical thinking? I don't think so.
. </div></div>
You read my mind. I've taught courses that were 6 months long and didn't have time for stuff like that. Even still critical thinking is something developed over a lifetime. Some have it and some don't. I imagine it can be "exercised" but I'd be reluctant to think it could be taught within the confines of a marksmanship course. Students pay money with the expectation they'll learn to shoot and if you fail to accomplish that task that student may be your last. </div></div>

This is why we have the concept of muscle memory through intense, demanding, repetitive training....to accomodate the non-critical thinker.

Just do it the way you were told to do it.........

 

[Sterling Shooter]

Re: The first thing you need to know?

My observations reveal there are folks out there, who have had basic marksmanship training and, in fact, know how to do it; yet, some of these folks still have trouble getting to the highest plateaus, not for their lack of practice, but for their inability, it seems, to correctly analyse the source/sources of error for misplaced shots. It has caused me to wonder what sort of assistance might come to their aid. These folks, it appears, do not have a process to figure things out. This is the context for critical thinking as I described it in my first post.

 

[doc76251]

Re: The first thing you need to know?

I have to agree with Tripwire in one aspect and it cannot be taught within the confines of a class. There are very few people out there who can self evaluate (except in the broadest terms) with any consistency or regularity. This is especially obvious with a new(er) shooter and a data book. With a new shooter he/she will record just about every shot as "center" unless it is a substantial "jerk" or some such. On the target is what I call the "Angle of reality" it's where all the things that the shooter is not yet capable of discerning or observing affect the bullet placement and the shooter doesn't know why yet.

I won't get into the topic of a shooter that lies to himself because he thinks someone might notice.

Think of a new shooter as someone who is shooting 1K with a red dot scope. "The dot was over the target when the trigger broke, the shot was center." As they become more self aware and as Sterling is talking about "critical in their thinking" the focus begins to narrow, similar to shooting at 1K with a variable power optic. As more things are evaluated during the firing phase and as they become more aware of their own body and critical in their evaluation the power goes up until they are calling 1/2 an X ring.

The object of an instructor, in this context, is to bring the power up by a measurable amount. Whether it is an epiphany for the shooter or the modification of an existing technique that results in improvement. Kind of like drag racing, a 2 second gain in the grocery getter category may be a couple hundred $$. In top fuel dragster 1/10th costs a million.

Ultimately the result rests on the shoulders of the shooter. Shooting is not an art where buy you can go to the internet and have the answers immediately. Belay that. You can get the answers immediately but it takes practice and development and critical thinking/honesty to be able to utilize them.

.02 from the cheap seats

Cheers,

Doc

 

[Greg Langelius *]

Re: The first thing you need to know?

I address the self-criticism angle with the Buddy System.

Two peer students will work as a team, taking turns observing and coaching each other.

In so doing each obtains insight onto judging comprehension and (re)conveying the knowledge, which is akin to instructing, which in turn is the final step to comprehension, i.e. being able to put the ideas into a communicable form.

This process works to unload the instructor from the individual monitoring by means of delegation, allowing them to step back and maintain an overall monitoring process.

If the peer team returns to a common locale, they can continue their cross-coaching for the longer term. Nobody does it alone, and the Buddy/Shooting Partner System allows a lasting relatonship to reinforce the learning process.

My shooting partner is STP, and he's the best coach I've ever had. I just wish I could be as good as learner as he is a coach.

Greg

 

[BattleAxe]

Re: The first thing you need to know?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sterling Shooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">My observations reveal there are folks out there, who have had basic marksmanship training and, in fact, know how to do it; yet, some of these folks still have trouble getting to the highest plateaus, not for their lack of practice, but for their inability, it seems, to correctly analyse the source/sources of error for misplaced shots. It has caused me to wonder what sort of assistance might come to their aid. These folks, it appears, do not have a process to figure things out. This is the context for critical thinking as I described it in my first post. </div></div>

I gotcha...so you're referring to students that have gone beyond the basics and have reached a plateau or cannot progress. The problem is the nature of what you do...you're not with the student all of the time and can't witness his training between sessions. It almost doesn't matter what the course is but its extremely hard to pinpoint problems "part-time" and your role in their lives is <span style="font-style: italic">extremely</span> part time.

We all know of the examples of someone that smokes through a course only to go on to mediocrity, where another that struggles and barely makes it goes on to achieve greatness. What separates the two? Intelligence? Often the answer lies in qualities that are not always present when we're looking.

Are they training as hard as they say they are or just going through the motions? Often a less intelligent individual that has drive and determination will succeed on nothing but guts and kind of goes back to my earlier comments about knowing your audience...often as an instructor you DO NOT and WILL NOT know them even if you try.

I like Gregs idea of the buddy system but depending on the nature of the problem even that has limits and we're reduced to teaching repetiion as Tripwire mentioned, which really is the absolute best way to overcome "thinking" problems. If repetition is failing, the method may not be at fault, but the "types" of repetitive tasks just might be. Sometimes just changing the drill makes all the difference and to give you an example...

When an entry level scuba student is most likely to panic is when they're forced to take their mask off for the very first time underwater. They panic, forget they have a regulator in their mouth, and bolt for the surface. Logic dictates that we repeat the exercise until successful and that approach eventualy works for 75% of those prone to panic. But how can we achieve closer to a 100% success rate without eliminating the drill? Simple....I teach them no-mask breathing <span style="text-decoration: underline">first</span>, before they ever get to experience the safety and comfort of regulator breathing with a mask on. I simply removed the paradigm of "<span style="font-style: italic">OMG I just lost my mask and I'm going to die"</span>. Now when they remove thier mask its nothing new or scary because I fooled them into believing that no-mask breathing was normal.

The point I'm trying to make is that maybe you should look closer at what you're teaching or the drills your'e running. It may be time to tweak them.

 

[BattleAxe]

Re: The first thing you need to know?

In fact Sterling if you want to get an advanced student past a plataeu, just use the mask trick...

Take away their golden stick. The one they're trying to master but cant. The one they sit and stare at. Then force them to train solely on a lesser piece of equipment...

-One that's difficult to obtain a cheek weld with
-is heavy and/or bulky with poor ergonomics
-has a heavy, gritty trigger
-low quality optic
-essentially rack grade junk

Have them shoot some "before" groups or drills as a litmus. Now force them to train with it until they increase their performance by a factor of "whatever" and its the only stick they can train with for several weeks to a month or two.

Then just sit back and watch and see what happens when you eventually give back the keys to the Ferrari. It's the equivelant of putting a doughnut on the end of a baseball bat. Plateaus often occur when a student has convinced themselves that they're doing everything right, so they keep doing the same thing over and over again expecting a different result each time. Some consider that the definition of insanity but I submit that it's also the definition of a plateau.

By forcing them to learn, then train with an unfamiliar platform they're going to "un-learn" the familiar to a degree, and they'll have to re-learn that platform when its given back to them. It's the same concept as muscle confusion in bodybuilding...it you use the same routine over and over again your muscles get used to it and can't progress past a certain point. I use this technique on myself by not getting too used to any one platform. Often I'll train with something different such a switching to my old iron-sighted Colt with its 10 lb trigger.