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Gunsmithing The "new and improved" blueprint process is werkin

LRI

Lance Criminal
Full Member
Minuteman
  • Mar 14, 2010
    6,308
    7,386
    52
    Sturgis, S. Dakota
    www.longriflesinc.com
    Two months and about $5,000.00 later I got to see if this investment was going to work or be a total flop.

    Took me about an hour and a half on the first one as I had to fiddle with the programming to get everything dialed in the way I wanted it, the rest were "stoopid fast" to set up and run.

    Money well spent!

    Proof's in the pudding. The threads are now all gauged, the bolts lap in really quick, and surface finish is really nice.

    I don't often get worked up over little things, but this is pretty dern cool from a shop owner perspective. Now I can really hustle!

    Enjoy your Saturday. I may just go throw a plane up this afternoon. We've finally got some nice weather.

    DSC_0001.jpg


    DSC_0002.jpg


    DSC_0003.jpg
     
    Re: The "new and improved" blueprint process is werkin

    7 minutes on the setup, 12 minute cycle.

    Plop in the fixture
    Indicate off the raceway with my new gauge to ensure I'm "square" to the table.
    qualify the height of the action off the lug abutment
    Indicate the receiver "straight up" to the spindle
    indicate to center

    Cycle smash!

    Face the receiver
    Helical bore the new thread ID
    Cleanup pass across lug abutments
    Time to the existing thread and thread mill the new thread pitch to 1.085"/16
    Gauge threads while on the fixture to ensure tolerance and remachine if required. (usually only the first one or two require a 2nd pass. After the machine "thaws out" a bit it runs to the numbers.
    truncate/counterbore the lead thread to make it easier for the G/S fitting the barrel
    drill a pair of holes for the recoil lug (that I include as part of the job)

    Another 5-8 on the lapping op and cleanup.

    5-10 on final assembly.

    I've got it setup so that the 1.150" distance from the lug abutments to the receiver ring is preserved. No alterations on the tennon other than increasing the major to 1.080"-1.082"

    Threads look awesome. I spent some serious coin on the new thread mill insert cutter that does a really nice job. Changed the type of coolant, modified the fixtures, made some new setup devices, and had gauging and indicating mandrels made, hardened, ground, and qualified in .001" increments.

    I'm stoked and hope to keep this machine dedicated to tuning actions by the chord.

     
    Re: The "new and improved" blueprint process is werkin

    They look great Chad. Hope the new shop is treating you well.
     
    Re: The "new and improved" blueprint process is werkin

    Wow. Thats impressive.

    What machine are you running that on that you want it dedicated to bolts?
     
    Re: The "new and improved" blueprint process is werkin

    What do you charge if I send you a stripped 700 action? Howa?
     
    Re: The "new and improved" blueprint process is werkin

    Very nice! Let me know when those 'kit' packages are ready to roll
    wink.gif
     
    Re: The "new and improved" blueprint process is werkin

    So do you see code in your sleep? Nice work! You never cease to amaze me Chad!
     
    Re: The "new and improved" blueprint process is werkin

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> After the machine "thaws out"</div></div>

    Do you mean warmed up in the mornings? If so do you get growth in X & Y or just Z? We have just little mills and have about .0015 diffence in the spindle. Takes about an hour to strech out running at 3000 to 5000rpms.

    I wish we did gun work instead of gun parts....
    mad.gif
     
    Re: The "new and improved" blueprint process is werkin

    Germs,

    This was a "batch job" for Mr. Greg Young, a fellow gun plumber down in FL.

    My involvement with these actions is limited to the work provided.

    For purchasing information here is his contact info:

    Greg Young
    S.W. Florida Marine Service
    Southern Precision Rifles
    (239)289-2338


    Now, that being said he also stocks a fairly good inventory of custom barrels. The actions are sitting here in the boxes ready to ship Monday.

    If someone were to give him a call, order a barrel/receiver and pay him accordingly I'll make the bold leap that he'd ship me the barrel, I fit it, you guys pay me for the labor, and once it's done a box shows up at your FFL dealer.

    Simple.

    In order for this to work you start the process with him. Once he gives me a green light we can press forward.

    I have no information regarding pricing. That's his kitchen and I stay out of it.

    As for me:

    Barrel fitting labor rate:

    Std. barrel: $200.00
    Fluted barrel: $250.00
    Fit a brake: $125.00
    Thread for a can: $75.00
    Reamer charge: $85.00

    Here's my chamber reamer inventory:

    http://www.longriflesinc.com/chamberreamer.xls


    I don't flute barrels.

    Fitting includes:

    Turn/thread/counterbore tennon
    Chamber to desired cartridge
    Cut to length and crown
    Spin polish/blast finish
    CNC engrave cartridge on the cylinder

    All work is done on my "wiz bang" Doosan Mecatec CNC turning center. Does a nice job.
     
    Re: The "new and improved" blueprint process is werkin

    Yes Ed, I got it and Ill pass it on.

    Chad, seems like you got it dialed in now. I wish I was closer, Id love to watch that thread truing operation. As a CNC operator I have to ask, How many actions have you scrapped?
    blush.gif


    Maybe I missed it, but do you only true Rem 700's ?
     
    Re: The "new and improved" blueprint process is werkin

    Well I guess Chad let the cat out of the bag...
    These are a test batch of actions that will be sold in the for sale section. Depending on intrest and sales, I am hoping to carry these actions as a standard inventory item. Hopefully available the first half of this week

    Sorry Chad, not trying to hijack your thread
     
    Re: The "new and improved" blueprint process is werkin

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bugholes</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Well I guess Chad let the cat out of the bag...
    These are a test batch of actions that will be sold in the for sale section. Depending on intrest and sales, I am hoping to carry these actions as a standard inventory item. Hopefully available the first half of this week

    Sorry Chad, not trying to hijack your thread </div></div>

    Wow, that would be phenomenal.
     
    Re: The "new and improved" blueprint process is we

    To date, none! Like I mentioned, first one took an hour and a half to do.
    smile.gif


    Cutter comp is a beautiful thing when thread milling and boring.
    smile.gif


    G41 is GAWD!
     
    Re: The "new and improved" blueprint process is we

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bugholes</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Well I guess Chad let the cat out of the bag...
    These are a test batch of actions that will be sold in the for sale section. Depending on intrest and sales, I am hoping to carry these actions as a standard inventory item. Hopefully available the first half of this week

    Sorry Chad, not trying to hijack your thread </div></div>

    G-man,

    This is our thread buddy. Chime in anytime!
     
    Re: The "new and improved" blueprint process is we

    Chad,

    What all do you feel is needed to properly blueprint a 700?

    Guessing from the pics that you don't square the bolt face? What about the lugs and lug abuttments?
     
    Re: The "new and improved" blueprint process is we

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: lw8</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Chad,

    What all do you feel is needed to properly blueprint a 700?

    Guessing from the pics that you don't square the bolt face? What about the lugs and lug abuttments? </div></div>


    Edit-(in response to the ? below)

    Here's what's done:

    Face the receiver
    Helical bore the new thread ID
    Cleanup pass across lug abutments
    Time to the existing thread and thread mill the new thread pitch to 1.085"/16
    Gauge threads while on the fixture to ensure tolerance and remachine if required. (usually only the first one or two require a 2nd pass. After the machine "thaws out" a bit it runs to the numbers.
    truncate/counterbore the lead thread to make it easier for the G/S fitting the barrel
    drill a pair of holes for the recoil lug (that I include as part of the job)


    As far as bolt work goes:

    I've done this work on more than a few M700's over the last two years. In every instance when lapping in the lugs on the bolt, the surfaces achieved full contact in about 5 minutes. The bluing rubs off and all four surfaces have a nice dull gray finish.

    This tells me the lugs are pretty darn straight to begin with.

    If we look at the manufacturing process of how a bolt is made, its supportive of what the lapping op tells us. I'd bet dollars to doughnuts Remington machines the bolt prior to soldering the handle. Just makes sense from a manufacturing standpoint. A lathe would have to be grossly worn out/totally incompetent operator in order to screw this up.

    Lets look at a crown on a barrel for instance. Many, many smiths machine crowns 90* to the bore. It's convenient and simple with no elaborate setups required. If it'll work there, then it should stand to reason it'll work on bolt lugs. As stated, the proof is in the lapping operation.

    One must remember that whenever you remove material from a lug surface, the primary extraction of the action is affected. It becomes a cascading effect. Fire control timing, sear engagement (in relation to the lugs), and shroud location is all affected. One can't rob Peter and pay Paul with this.

    My attempt here is to offer the most features with the smallest impact on the residual function. .005" is removed from the lug abutments. That's as far as it goes. The receiver face to lug abutment distance of 1.15" is preserved so the tennon dimensioning is maintained. (aside from the threads of course)

    Bolt faces:

    The bolt face and the lugs are surely machined in the same operation at Remington. Again I have to question the argument that they screw this up. I'd have to really question how a G/S goes about proving that its in fact out of square to the bore. Short of a surface plate, gauge blocks, and a height stand I don't see the inspection process being valid. (all of which I have) Bear in mind that with the tolerances between the bolt body/receiver bore being what it is in most 700's, you can true this stuff all you want (lugs/bolt face) and it won't amount to a hill of beans the moment you rotate the bolt into battery. The ejection side lug is doing all the work until the trigger breaks.

    It's certainly within my powers to correct all this, however I'd have to sell blueprinted actions for $1,200 in order to do it. The setups involved are virtually identical to what a custom action manufacturer would use.

    I think we'd all agree if I tried that all you'd hear around here is crickets chirping. Nobody would buy one.


     
    Re: The "new and improved" blueprint process is we

    Do you feel that squaring the bolt face and bolt lugs is benificial?
     
    Re: The "new and improved" blueprint process is we

    As far as bolt work goes:

    I've done this work on more than a few M700's over the last two years. In every instance when lapping in the lugs on the bolt, the surfaces achieved full contact in about 5 minutes. The bluing rubs off and all four surfaces have a nice dull gray finish.

    This tells me the lugs are pretty darn straight to begin with.

    If we look at the manufacturing process of how a bolt is made, its supportive of what the lapping op tells us. I'd bet dollars to doughnuts Remington machines the bolt prior to soldering the handle. Just makes sense from a manufacturing standpoint. A lathe would have to be grossly worn out/totally incompetent operator in order to screw this up.

    Lets look at a crown on a barrel for instance. Many, many smiths machine crowns 90* to the bore. It's convenient and simple with no elaborate setups required. If it'll work there, then it should stand to reason it'll work on bolt lugs. As stated, the proof is in the lapping operation.

    One must remember that whenever you remove material from a lug surface, the primary extraction of the action is affected. It becomes a cascading effect. Fire control timing, sear engagement (in relation to the lugs), and shroud location is all affected. One can't rob Peter and pay Paul with this.

    My attempt here is to offer the most features with the smallest impact on the residual function. .005" is removed from the lug abutments. That's as far as it goes. The receiver face to lug abutment distance of 1.15" is preserved so the tennon dimensioning is maintained. (aside from the threads of course)

    Bolt faces:

    The bolt face and the lugs are surely machined in the same operation at Remington. Again I have to question the argument that they screw this up. I'd have to really question how a G/S goes about proving that its in fact out of square to the bore. Short of a surface plate, gauge blocks, and a height stand I don't see the inspection process being valid. (all of which I have) Bear in mind that with the tolerances between the bolt body/receiver bore being what it is in most 700's, you can true this stuff all you want (lugs/bolt face) and it won't amount to a hill of beans the moment you rotate the bolt into battery. The ejection side lug is doing all the work until the trigger breaks.

    It's certainly within my powers to correct all this, however I'd have to sell blueprinted actions for $1,200 in order to do it. The setups involved are virtually identical to what a custom action manufacturer would use.

    I think we'd all agree if I tried that all you'd hear around here is crickets chirping. Nobody would buy one.
     
    Re: The "new and improved" blueprint process is we

    Would it affect the tollerances if the action was parkerized after you true it up?

    You should do an group buy on truing...I hear Brownells will have 700s in stock in a few weeks...
     
    Re: The "new and improved" blueprint process is we

    I'd have to say "no" on whether or not "parkin" a receiver/bolt will hurt anything.

    Cerakote can be another issue. Like any other sprayed on material, there's a preparation process and a learning curve.

    A stock Remmy typically runs all day with CeraKote. Failure to prep parts properly on a custom action will likely result in something resembling the square peg/round hole.

    We are up to our necks in guns presently. The action/barreleing/cerakote GB is something I've wanted to do, but I must get through a pile of rifles first.

    It will come though. Soon I hope.

    C.
     
    Re: The "new and improved" blueprint process is we

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: C. Dixon</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
    Bolt faces:

    The bolt face and the lugs are surely machined in the same operation at Remington.
    </div></div>


    Can you elaborate on this?
    Do you mean the fronts of the lugs and the face are cut at once? What would be holding/spinning the bolt head while this is happening?
    Are they soldering the head on before finish machining it because of the intense heat?
    There's a few ways to make a bolt head, I just cant think of what the obvious way they'd do it is.

    Very curious as to how Remingtons actions are (probably) made.
     
    Re: The "new and improved" blueprint process is we

    Meaning this:

    Just using common sense. What's more likely? A bolt head is finished 100% then attached in the hopes it'll stay straight? (Ignoring that it'll have to be turned/cleaned up anyway due to/from residual solder/flux)

    Or you slap it together, load it in a turning center with some live tooling, hit cycle start, and get a nearly finished part? Considering manpower resources, overhead, production commitments, etc it would seem likely they'd maximize results and minimize effort.

    I've been told by folks that would know that roughly 2500 various m700s are produced every week. With those kinds of numbers manufacturing simplicity has gottabe a serious consideration.

    I've never made bolts in production. I have however built a lot of stuff in volume. That's what base my answer on.

    Hope it helped.

    C.
     
    Re: The "new and improved" blueprint process is we

    Meaning this:

    Just using common sense. What's more likely? A bolt head is finished 100% then attached in the hopes it'll stay straight? (Ignoring that it'll have to be turned/cleaned up anyway due to/from residual solder/flux)

    Or you slap it together, load it in a turning center with some live tooling, hit cycle start, and get a nearly finished part? Considering manpower resources, overhead, production commitments, etc it would seem likely they'd maximize results and minimize effort.

    I've been told by folks that would know that roughly 2500 various m700s are produced every week. With those kinds of numbers manufacturing simplicity has gottabe a serious consideration.

    I've never made bolts in production. I have however built a lot of stuff in volume. That's what I base my answer on.

    Hope it helped.

    C.
     
    Re: The "new and improved" blueprint process is we

    Thanks.

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: C. Dixon</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
    I've been told by folks that would know that roughly 2500 various m700s are produced every week.</div></div>

    And they all need bolt knobs
    smile.gif



    The work on the receivers is beautiful by the way. Your set up for truing those does seem appealing. Obviously never gotten to do it myself though.
     
    Re: The "new and improved" blueprint process is we

    I might need to start putting some money aside for the eventual truing GB