The Trap is Sprung

[Dead Eye Dick]

The Trap is SPRUNG

44 torpedo bombers set out, 2 returned, not one hit scored, yet they won the war.

Their efforts, in outdated aircraft, with all too often dud torpedos brought the Japanese fighters and anti aircraft guns were down on the deck chasing these old airplanes and….

Cleared the skis for our splendid dive bombers, who in a short time took out the Akagi the Soryu, and the Kaga. After fending off a counter attack from the planes of Hiryu, the dive bombers return to destroy the Hiryu, and thus led, the great Yamamoto to order a retreat.

And the brave sailors on Kaga, Soryu, Hiryu and Akagi (pictured below) and the rest of the grand Japanese fleet taste defeat for the first time in their nation’s history. Japan struggles with the loss of these fine carriers, and especially their sailors and aircraft maintenance people, who simply cannot be replaced. It is truly the turning point in the most horrific war in the history of this planet

We lost the beloved Yorktown, but in one afternoon, June 4th, 1942, our brave sailors and airmen, turned certain defeat into Incredible VICTORY!

Hiryu

Akagi

Soryu

Kaga

 

[DemonicLemming]

Knowing how bad American torpedoes were for most of the war, those torpedo bomber pilots had some massive balls - not just to fly the missions they did, but knowing there was a very good chance that the torpedo they were going to drop wouldn't even work.

 

[Blue Sky Country]

Knowing how bad American torpedoes were for most of the war, those torpedo bomber pilots had some massive balls - not just to fly the missions they did, but knowing there was a very good chance that the torpedo they were going to drop wouldn't even work.

It took the US some time to recover from that huge sucker punch we received at Pearl Harbor and be technologically up to par with Imperial Japan and the Third Reich. Prior to Pearl Harbor, we had been WAY behind Japan and Germany technologically. At one point both of the Axis giants were enriching uranium fuel for future weapon development while we were still just carrying out university experiments with fissionables. The Mitsubishi Zero had been the apex fighter craft for a few years until we shot one down over Alaska in 1943 with great difficulty. That Zero crashed into the snow and was relatively undamaged, the US pilot managing to get a great lead on the enemy plane and hit it with a burst that mainly shredded the cockpit and Swiss-cheesing the occupant. From that one Zero, Northrop-Grumman reverse engineered the thing and produced the F6F Hellcat which surpassed the Zero in speed and maneuverability. From 1943 onward it was a direct straight line uphill climb for us. All of the top secret Tier 1 tech agencies like the Skunk Works and JPL, the holy of holies throughout the intense moments of the Cold War right up to this day, started during this time whose original missions were to capture and reverse engineer Axis tech.

 

[GreenGO Juan]

Hiryu narrowly missed by B-17's.

 

[diggler1833]

Been enjoying these last couple of posts @Dead Eye Dick

My grandfather served on the USS Melvin (DD-680) 1944-45. He ended up participating in just about every island-hopping campaign, as well as Leyte Gulf and the Surigao Strait, where the USS Melvin was one of the ships that hit the mighty Japanese Fuso battleship with a torpedo and caused her to sink. I got to go through one of his old photo albums once, and there were a ton of photos that he took (he basically was an ammo runner for the AA guns during combat) and a quartermaster otherwise. He did finally confide some of his stories to me when I was a senior in high school and had enlisted in the Marines. I guess I earned the privilege at that point. Those photos were absolutely awesome... I have no idea where they ended up. My mom still has his uniform though neatly preserved in one of her chests.

PTSD wasn't a thing really back then. My grandfather never went to sleep without 3-4 whiskies on the rocks first. However, he was never abusive, never acted drunk, and was always such a polite and humble man. He ended up being a professor of anthropology in the California state university program, and wrote books in English, Spanish, and German (he was originally born in Germany in 1922... which is why he fought in the pacific). A Fulbright Scholarship recipient in 1962-63. I just looked him up on their website, and there is his name. Awesome man.

 

[c1steve]

It took the US some time to recover from that huge sucker punch we received at Pearl Harbor and be technologically up to par with Imperial Japan and the Third Reich. Prior to Pearl Harbor, we had been WAY behind Japan and Germany technologically. At one point both of the Axis giants were enriching uranium fuel for future weapon development while we were still just carrying out university experiments with fissionables. The Mitsubishi Zero had been the apex fighter craft for a few years until we shot one down over Alaska in 1943 with great difficulty. That Zero crashed into the snow and was relatively undamaged, the US pilot managing to get a great lead on the enemy plane and hit it with a burst that mainly shredded the cockpit and Swiss-cheesing the occupant. From that one Zero, Northrop-Grumman reverse engineered the thing and produced the F6F Hellcat which surpassed the Zero in speed and maneuverability. From 1943 onward it was a direct straight line uphill climb for us. All of the top secret Tier 1 tech agencies like the Skunk Works and JPL, the holy of holies throughout the intense moments of the Cold War right up to this day, started during this time whose original missions were to capture and reverse engineer Axis tech.

On the Hellcat, it was not reverse engineered at all. The US used the Zero to determine what it's speed and characteristics were, then developed a totally different plane that would out perform the Zero.

 

[Blue Sky Country]

On the Hellcat, it was not reverse engineered at all. The US used the Zero to determine what it's speed and characteristics were, then developed a totally different plane that would out perform the Zero.

Thanks for the clarification. From what I've read, the Hellcat and Mustang engines were absolute BEASTS. They were the apex of internal combustion piston engines long before car guys and racing modders discovered they can do the same on the ground. These engines were on a whole different class above the Zeros and were able to take on the early jets WAY into the late 1950s before the last props were retired and we went full on jets...

 

[sloporsche]

Midway was won by who was the luckiest and who made the least mistakes ,had the US come out the loser a few court marshals would have been held for squadron leaders as it was after action reports had to be " re-written" .

 

[sloporsche]

On the Hellcat, it was not reverse engineered at all. The US used the Zero to determine what it's speed and characteristics were, then developed a totally different plane that would out perform the Zero.

The trick to besting the zero was mostly tactics ,meaning ambush from above and not dog fight and add to the fact the japanese ran out of experienced pilots because of a training program .

 

[Redlion]

Good intelligence, great decision making and American bravery led to the victory. I would not call the Japanese carries "fine" as at least a couple of them were vintage 1920's construction/reconstruction of existing war ships.

 

[GreenGO Juan]

Thanks for the clarification. From what I've read, the Hellcat and Mustang engines were absolute BEASTS. They were the apex of internal combustion piston engines long before car guys and racing modders discovered they can do the same on the ground. These engines were on a whole different class above the Zeros and were able to take on the early jets WAY into the late 1950s before the last props were retired and we went full on jets...

Big issue with the zero was fuel quality/octane. They only had 92 octane at best and towards the end I think even lower. Even with this handicap they were able to produce the exact HP/LBS to US engines. They were damn well engineered designs.

Had the Japs had good fuel, they could theoretically could have had a higher HP to weight ratio. Than even late war US engines. In that regard they were ahead of us.

USA had as high as 130 octane...

 

[kl3309]

Couple of years old but good story telling, and from the Japanese perspective:


And counterpoint:

Have to go back and re-read Gordon Prange's Miracle at Midway but everything seems to be in order.

 

[sirhrmechanic]

Torpedo 8. Ensign Gay was The one survivor.

But the U.S. scratched four flat tops that day! After that it was all over but the dying.

Japanese would have saved ourselves and themselves a World of hurt if they had done the $&@*ing math and understood the American Psyche.

Yamamoto did. But his exhortations for caution were overruled and he predicted The outcome before Pearl Harbor even happened.

Sirhr

 

[sirhrmechanic]

And chalk one up for the cryppies!

IIRC the clear text message sent from Midway was: “the Water condensers are out on Midway.”
This was the crypto guys farming expedition.

Within hours the Japanese code Was broken and said “The water condensers are out on AH.” Which was their code for Midway.

Trap was set indeed!

Sirhr

 

[sirhrmechanic]

The Trap is SPRUNG

44 torpedo bombers set out, 2 returned, not one hit scored, yet they won the war.

Their efforts, in outdated aircraft, with all too often dud torpedos brought the Japanese fighters and anti aircraft guns were down on the deck chasing these old airplanes and….

Cleared the skis for our splendid dive bombers, who in a short time took out the Akagi the Soryu, and the Kaga. After fending off a counter attack from the planes of Hiryu, the dive bombers return to destroy the Hiryu, and thus led, the great Yamamoto to order a retreat.

And the brave sailors on Kaga, Soryu, Hiryu and Akagi (pictured below) and the rest of the grand Japanese fleet taste defeat for the first time in their nation’s history. Japan struggles with the loss of these fine carriers, and especially their sailors and aircraft maintenance people, who simply cannot be replaced. It is truly the turning point in the most horrific war in the history of this planet

We lost the beloved Yorktown, but in one afternoon, June 4th, 1942, our brave sailors and airmen, turned certain defeat into Incredible VICTORY!

Hiryu
View attachment 8701714
Akagi
View attachment 8701715
Soryu
View attachment 8701716
Kaga
View attachment 8701717

FIFY

Hiryu

Soryu

Akagi

Kaga

Of course, I am probably a day early ;-)

Sirhr

 

[kl3309]

USS Yorktown (posted Drachinifel and UHotPW analyses of Yorktown over in MPT a few days ago)

IJN Akagi

IJN Kaga

 

[Jscb1b]

Or a day late.

 

[sirhrmechanic]

It took the US some time to recover from that huge sucker punch we received at Pearl Harbor and be technologically up to par with Imperial Japan and the Third Reich. Prior to Pearl Harbor, we had been WAY behind Japan and Germany technologically. At one point both of the Axis giants were enriching uranium fuel for future weapon development while we were still just carrying out university experiments with fissionables. The Mitsubishi Zero had been the apex fighter craft for a few years until we shot one down over Alaska in 1943 with great difficulty. That Zero crashed into the snow and was relatively undamaged, the US pilot managing to get a great lead on the enemy plane and hit it with a burst that mainly shredded the cockpit and Swiss-cheesing the occupant. From that one Zero, Northrop-Grumman reverse engineered the thing and produced the F6F Hellcat which surpassed the Zero in speed and maneuverability. From 1943 onward it was a direct straight line uphill climb for us. All of the top secret Tier 1 tech agencies like the Skunk Works and JPL, the holy of holies throughout the intense moments of the Cold War right up to this day, started during this time whose original missions were to capture and reverse engineer Axis tech.

Look up “Operation Paperclip.”

Wicked good story! Way more than a few rocket scientists!

Sirhr

 

[sirhrmechanic]

Knowing how bad American torpedoes were for most of the war, those torpedo bomber pilots had some massive balls - not just to fly the missions they did, but knowing there was a very good chance that the torpedo they were going to drop wouldn't even work.

Operation Pacific (John Wayne and Ward Bond) does a great job of showing the torpedo issues.

Took some real work to get them working!

Sirhr

 

[Dead Eye Dick]

Here is the “skinny” on the Zero. As most realize it was very lightly built. It had great range and good speed for its day. However, its ailerons were very heavy at speed. At low speeds it could out turn any other fighter in the war. At high speeds, it was a dog. So, after evaluating the zero it was learned how to fight it. Don’t allow yourself to get in a slow turning fight. If so, you’re dead. Also, use the thatch weave. Invented by Jimmy Thatch. It used one Wildcat to bait a zero, while the other Wildcat came up from behind and took out the zero. When a pilot has target fixation, his aircraft is never going to outperform the opposing aircraft because he is fixed on flying behind that aircraft.

A couple more lessons. As said, the Zero was very lightly built. It had to be to achieve the performance of its radial engine which only produced about 965 horsepower. Further, it couldn’t take a hit. No protection for the pilot and no self sealing fuel tanks. One tracer round through one of its gas tanks, and it was a firebomb. The Wildcat and later the Hellcat were tough as nails. Pretty much over built and dependent on the horsepower that the Prat & Whitney R1830 producing 1200HP for the Wildcat and the Pratt & Whitney R2800 producing 2000HP for the Hellcat provided those two aircraft.

The toughness of the little Wildcat kept us in the war. Its toughness is also what made the Thatch Weave work. Its took something for a zero to take out a Wildcat but a virtual spitball would take down a Zero.

So as others have said, zoom and boom is the best tactic, otherwise, use your wingman to come from behind while the zero pilot is fixated on you.

Wildcat vs Zero - 5.9 to 1 kill ration in favor of the Wildcat in 1942 and 6.9 to 1 kill ration for the entire war. As said, the Wildcat kept us in the war for 1941 and 1942

Hellcat vs Zero - 19-1 kill ratio. The Hellcat development started in 1938 and first flew in 1941. Subsequent development was brought about by advice from Wildcat pilots (Butch O’Hare for one) and the lessons learned from the captured zero. The biggest change was to the larger and more powerful R2800 engine. It made its combat debut in September 1943.

 

[Mk16.5]

My Uncle Pete was killed in an Avenger (Jap Zero) in the cleanup just after Midway. They saw him taking hits and then cartwheeling into the ocean. I don't buy their stuff.

 

[Ichi]

Here is the “skinny” on the Zero. As most realize it was very lightly built. It had great range and good speed for its day. However, its ailerons were very heavy at speed. At low speeds it could out turn any other fighter in the war. At high speeds, it was a dog. So, after evaluating the zero it was learned how to fight it. Don’t allow yourself to get in a slow turning fight. If so, you’re dead. Also, use the thatch weave. Invented by Jimmy Thatch. It used one Wildcat to bait a zero, while the other Wildcat came up from behind and took out the zero. When a pilot has target fixation, his aircraft is never going to outperform the opposing aircraft because he is fixed on flying behind that aircraft.

A couple more lessons. As said, the Zero was very lightly built. It had to be to achieve the performance of its radial engine which only produced about 965 horsepower. Further, it couldn’t take a hit. No protection for the pilot and no self sealing fuel tanks. One tracer round through one of its gas tanks, and it was a firebomb. The Wildcat and later the Hellcat were tough as nails. Pretty much over built and dependent on the horsepower that the Prat & Whitney R1830 producing 1200HP for the Wildcat and the Pratt & Whitney R2800 producing 2000HP for the Hellcat provided those two aircraft.

The toughness of the little Wildcat kept us in the war. Its toughness is also what made the Thatch Weave work. Its took something for a zero to take out a Wildcat but a virtual spitball would take down a Zero.

So as others have said, zoom and boom is the best tactic, otherwise, use your wingman to come from behind while the zero pilot is fixated on you.

Wildcat vs Zero - 5.9 to 1 kill ration in favor of the Wildcat in 1942 and 6.9 to 1 kill ration for the entire war. As said, the Wildcat kept us in the war for 1941 and 1942

Hellcat vs Zero - 19-1 kill ratio. The Hellcat development started in 1938 and first flew in 1941. Subsequent development was brought about by advice from Wildcat pilots (Butch O’Hare for one) and the lessons learned from the captured zero. The biggest change was to the larger and more powerful R2800 engine. It made its combat debut in September 1943.

 

[BJames]

It took the US some time to recover from that huge sucker punch we received at Pearl Harbor and be technologically up to par with Imperial Japan and the Third Reich. Prior to Pearl Harbor, we had been WAY behind Japan and Germany technologically. At one point both of the Axis giants were enriching uranium fuel for future weapon development while we were still just carrying out university experiments with fissionables. The Mitsubishi Zero had been the apex fighter craft for a few years until we shot one down over Alaska in 1943 with great difficulty. That Zero crashed into the snow and was relatively undamaged, the US pilot managing to get a great lead on the enemy plane and hit it with a burst that mainly shredded the cockpit and Swiss-cheesing the occupant. From that one Zero, Northrop-Grumman reverse engineered the thing and produced the F6F Hellcat which surpassed the Zero in speed and maneuverability. From 1943 onward it was a direct straight line uphill climb for us. All of the top secret Tier 1 tech agencies like the Skunk Works and JPL, the holy of holies throughout the intense moments of the Cold War right up to this day, started during this time whose original missions were to capture and reverse engineer Axis tech.

That’s not quite what happened how we got the zero. It was shot down by AA fire during an aerial attack on the PBY base in Dutch Harbor, AK. It crashed landed on the nearby island of Akutan, flipping over and killing the pilot. Passing Navy boats noticed it, reported to higher and the recovery effort began. The Japanese pilot was buried there for awhile until they dug him up and mailed him back home.

At the time Dutch was only a PBY base, no runway or land to build it on. P-40’s were on Fort Glenn, the next island down from the one Dutch harbor is on at the time of this specific attack. Though it’s only about a 15-20 minute flight, P-40’s were slow and weather often didn’t cooperate, by time the call came and they launched, the Japs were already gone. They had mastered the hit and run by then.

https://www.amazon.com/Kogas-Zero-Fighter-Changed-Alaska/dp/0929521560

https://www.amazon.com/Thousand-Mile-War-Aleutians-Classic-Reprint/dp/0912006838/ref=sr_1_1?dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.O1jpydvu5iyAUD8yJwwF_yMbDmvzFnXS0iYdABIrkYATlhokAbw12uXn1UxzWlH0ZuX0e-YqdMOsQrhTHXv3z3anen-ET3-ocq9OxQ6is8KdA_7DgWIuOdtIRCDLbU6iIqYDP1z9VXPQUmkMqkkYuLz1NmD4y1w3Lt47vkOT848gQaDKLMglL6oEgNz5I7TtbPYcNyvnk1IpBM5BPbdoMQckSNlzFN_p5ZArLuoPYjQ.axLfDkA3pbJB8-gdYTJLMpPaw4YWZPgJU0j-K4OEGUk&dib_tag=se&hvbmt={BidMatchType}&hvdev=c&keywords=the+thousand+mile+war&qid=1749098773&s=books&sr=1-1

Two great reads on the war in the Aleutian’s.

It’s amazing how far ahead technologically the Japanese were comparatively. We didn’t figure out flush rivets on aircraft until Koga’s Zero for Christ sake…

Here’s a pic I took from one of the machine gun emplacements when I used to fly the Aleutians. That’s the entire town of Dutch Harbor and the US’s busiest fishing port.

 

[vh20]

Here is the “skinny” on the Zero. As most realize it was very lightly built. It had great range and good speed for its day. However, its ailerons were very heavy at speed. At low speeds it could out turn any other fighter in the war. At high speeds, it was a dog. So, after evaluating the zero it was learned how to fight it. Don’t allow yourself to get in a slow turning fight. If so, you’re dead. Also, use the thatch weave. Invented by Jimmy Thatch. It used one Wildcat to bait a zero, while the other Wildcat came up from behind and took out the zero. When a pilot has target fixation, his aircraft is never going to outperform the opposing aircraft because he is fixed on flying behind that aircraft.

A couple more lessons. As said, the Zero was very lightly built. It had to be to achieve the performance of its radial engine which only produced about 965 horsepower. Further, it couldn’t take a hit. No protection for the pilot and no self sealing fuel tanks. One tracer round through one of its gas tanks, and it was a firebomb. The Wildcat and later the Hellcat were tough as nails. Pretty much over built and dependent on the horsepower that the Prat & Whitney R1830 producing 1200HP for the Wildcat and the Pratt & Whitney R2800 producing 2000HP for the Hellcat provided those two aircraft.

The toughness of the little Wildcat kept us in the war. Its toughness is also what made the Thatch Weave work. Its took something for a zero to take out a Wildcat but a virtual spitball would take down a Zero.

So as others have said, zoom and boom is the best tactic, otherwise, use your wingman to come from behind while the zero pilot is fixated on you.

Wildcat vs Zero - 5.9 to 1 kill ration in favor of the Wildcat in 1942 and 6.9 to 1 kill ration for the entire war. As said, the Wildcat kept us in the war for 1941 and 1942

Hellcat vs Zero - 19-1 kill ratio. The Hellcat development started in 1938 and first flew in 1941. Subsequent development was brought about by advice from Wildcat pilots (Butch O’Hare for one) and the lessons learned from the captured zero. The biggest change was to the larger and more powerful R2800 engine. It made its combat debut in September 1943.

Well-written analysis on the Zero. No protection for the pilot and gas tanks, sacrificed for pure performance, follows the philosophy that it was an honor to die for the Emperor.

I had a friend, "Red Dog", who flew the Hellcat. Near, or just after the end of the war he had an opportunity to fly a captured Zero. This was not the one that was mentioned earlier here, but as I recall, one that a smart Japanese pilot who realized that the war was lost and the Emperor wasn't actually worth dying for, voluntarily surrendered near the end. This was not a test flight, or research. The war was basically over, and the CO was letting anyone with single-engine fighter credentials sign up for a joy ride. It only lasted a few days before the Admiral got wind and shut it down, but he said it was a very fun aircraft to fly. Delightful at low speed, and a little scary/weird at high speed.

 

[Ichi]

That’s not quite what happened how we got the zero. It was shot down by AA fire during an aerial attack on the PBY base in Dutch Harbor, AK. It crashed landed on the nearby island of Akutan, flipping over and killing the pilot. Passing Navy boats noticed it, reported to higher and the recovery effort began. The Japanese pilot was buried there for awhile until they dug him up and mailed him back home.

At the time Dutch was only a PBY base, no runway or land to build it on. P-40’s were on Fort Glenn, the next island down from the one Dutch harbor is on at the time of this specific attack. Though it’s only about a 15-20 minute flight, P-40’s were slow and weather often didn’t cooperate, by time the call came and they launched, the Japs were already gone. They had mastered the hit and run by then.

https://www.amazon.com/Kogas-Zero-Fighter-Changed-Alaska/dp/0929521560

https://www.amazon.com/Thousand-Mile-War-Aleutians-Classic-Reprint/dp/0912006838/ref=sr_1_1?dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.O1jpydvu5iyAUD8yJwwF_yMbDmvzFnXS0iYdABIrkYATlhokAbw12uXn1UxzWlH0ZuX0e-YqdMOsQrhTHXv3z3anen-ET3-ocq9OxQ6is8KdA_7DgWIuOdtIRCDLbU6iIqYDP1z9VXPQUmkMqkkYuLz1NmD4y1w3Lt47vkOT848gQaDKLMglL6oEgNz5I7TtbPYcNyvnk1IpBM5BPbdoMQckSNlzFN_p5ZArLuoPYjQ.axLfDkA3pbJB8-gdYTJLMpPaw4YWZPgJU0j-K4OEGUk&dib_tag=se&hvbmt={BidMatchType}&hvdev=c&keywords=the+thousand+mile+war&qid=1749098773&s=books&sr=1-1

Two great reads on the war in the Aleutian’s.

It’s amazing how far ahead technologically the Japanese were comparatively. We didn’t figure out flush rivets on aircraft until Koga’s Zero for Christ sake…

Here’s a pic I took from one of the machine gun emplacements when I used to fly the Aleutians. That’s the entire town of Dutch Harbor and the US’s busiest fishing port.
View attachment 8702327

US1857754A - Riveted joint​

 

[GreenGO Juan]

first 3 min is a ad but after that an over view of later Japans carriers.

 

[sloporsche]

Torpedo 8. Ensign Gay was The one survivor.

But the U.S. scratched four flat tops that day! After that it was all over but the dying.

Japanese would have saved ourselves and themselves a World of hurt if they had done the $&@*ing math and understood the American Psyche.

Yamamoto did. But his exhortations for caution were overruled and he predicted The outcome before Pearl Harbor even happened.

Sirhr

Talk to some older global economists and they will tell you japan won WW2 in the late fifties/early sixties ....asia for asians was their goal , human blood to rid manifest destiny and white mans burden but in 1941 japan brought a poker deck to a US run chess match .

 

[Dead Eye Dick]

Talk to some older global economists and they will tell you japan won WW2 in the late fifties/early sixties ....asia for asians was their goal , human blood to rid manifest destiny and white mans burden but in 1941 japan brought a poker deck to a US run chess match .

Lot of truth in what you say.

 

[Sossa]

My Uncle Pete was killed in an Avenger (Jap Zero) in the cleanup just after Midway. They saw him taking hits and then cartwheeling into the ocean. I don't buy their stuff.

We forget so soon.