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Thought this interesting... How shortages came about...

You are about a year and a half behind on this story. There has been a metric ton of articles about this, and it was all over the gun forums and prepping sites in late 2012 through 2013. Even in the mainstream media a bit.
 
Destroying ammo? WTF? Wouldn't it be better if every American got ammo in their tax return rather than have the govt pay someone to destroy it? After all it is our ammo.
 
Remember in Feb 2013 when EVERYTHING disappeared off the reloading shelves and even ammo was impossible to find. Yes, the shooting incident played a big part. But it looks like BIG BROTHER decided to capitalize on what they thought was an opportunity to strike a blow against Shooters. Read the article

Feds Buy Two Billion Rounds of Ammunition
If YOU actually read the article, it would be impossible to come to the conclusion you spouted.
 
Just a thought that I have been trying to investigate for a while. Has it ever crossed anyone's mind that this shortage was induced by the ammunition and component companies themselves? I here all these conspiracy theories but to be quite honest none of them even remotely make sense. The Govt did in fact grant a contract for 2billion rounds of ammo in different calibers with an option for 2billion more, this happens on a regular basis so it was no surprise to the ammo industry. They need it for all federal agencies for duty as well as practice and qualification, when you take into account all these departments its really not that much. And no its not enough to last 24 years of war either, during the occupation of Iraq and Afghanistan we were expending an average of 1mill rounds a day. That was not during the height of the war, think i saw a figure of huge proportion somewhere about the first few days of the war but cant remember what it was. Point is the ammo companies bidding on this contract have done this before and it is nothing new to them, so you would think they would have raised production to cover this additional need. Then there is the one about them shutting down the last lead smelter in America so that is why we cant get bullets, no go either. It is cheaper to import lead from other countries than to make it here anyway and has been since the 90's i believe. There are other theories but I have yet to see the shooters realize that this is looking more and more like the reloading and cartridge industry itself doing this to us. You can go on youtube and watch the Hodgdon guy and Hornady guy say it is only like this because of us the shooters hoarding this stuff. They say they are running round the clock and weekends, night and Day and its our fault for this shortage and there's nothing they can do. They give a convincing argument and I almost would believe it except for one small problem, these videos are over a year old! This crap has been going on for almost three years now and I can't help but think in three years they would have been able to up there capacity and level out the supply. If there wasn't a ford car on the lot to purchase anywhere in the country and there was millions of cars on back-order ford would have opened another plant and hired more people, purchased more machines and made more cars to fill the demand. These companies know that firearm sales have gone through the roof here lately, they know these things need to be fed by the reloader or cartridge company so if one side of the industry has grown so big why is it the other refuses to do this? I don't see a shortage of firearms, the primer companies raised there output capabilities to match the demand and we have primers now, bullet companies also raised there ability to make more by adding equipment, manpower and expanding facilities. We are able to get bullets pretty much as we need now, and brass seems to be good now it seems. Powder and cartridge companies just seem to be digging in and refusing to get bigger to meet the larger sustained demand of all the new shooters getting into this sport. Im curious to see if anyone else is seeing this, look for yourselves.
 
I know for a FACT that there are significantly more shooters these days running through a LOT more ammo than just a few years ago. Go to most any public range on an average nice weekend day and you'll see what I mean when you think back to just 8-10 years ago for comparison. Then consider how "en vogue" prepping has become and every mall ninja with a pay check thinks he needs to be sitting on 10K+ rounds of ammo. Look at the number of firearms sold when things started going bonkers. Even if only 1 in 10 of the estimated 3 million gun owners in the US has increased their usage, that's a big impact to the industry. Then consider that we're now well past 10 years of war in the sand box and what it's taken to keep that going.

Now things were looking for a while in Feb and March like it was starting to catch up a bit, now Spring is here and everybody is itching for more range time, competition seasons are starting to hit full stride, etc. Then consider that 90% of the high use market has been conditioned to buy it when they find it, and there's little to no time for the industry to even think about catching up let alone taking a breath. Then take into account the costs of increased production (Tooling, expansion of plant, personnel, sourcing raw materials) and then the time it takes to do that, especially when you're already going full tilt to try and catch up, and you can see why companies are reluctant to expand to satisfy what has historically shown itself to be a temporary market. Remember this isn't the first time this has happened.

So basically, IMO, there's no conspiracy by the .gov, the industry, or anyone else, it's just our insatiable appetite, and the laws of supply and demand. Honestly I'm surprised at how relatively stable the prices have remained, when you consider the demand for the stuff.
 
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2 BILLION??? That's 24 years worth of war for the ENTIRE US MILITARY

The ENTIRE US MILITARY only goes through 83.3 million rounds of ammunition a year, in a time of war?

Really?

84 million rounds ends up being something like 65 per active member of the ENTIRE US MILITARY.

Even if only 250,000 of the ~1.3M active servicemembers are "warfighters", that's less than 340 rounds per person per year.
 
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The ENTIRE US MILITARY only goes through 83.3 million rounds of ammunition a year, in a time of war?

Really?

84 million rounds ends up being something like 65 per active member of the ENTIRE US MILITARY.

Even if only 250,000 of the ~1.3M active servicemembers are "warfighters", that's less than 340 rounds per person per year.

Hell, in the Corps you are required to qualify every year, regardless of MOS. So every swinging dick/pair of tits expends at least 200rds each, just on the standard requal requirements. Never mind all the other happy horse shit training (I remember pouring 30w motor oil on a M-2 barrel to keep it cool, because we "had to" burn through the inventory of XX,000 .50cal ammo assigned to use for FamFire, or we wouldn't get as much next year. So we just sat there with our thumbs on the butterfly, sending ammo down range...)
 
I know for a FACT that there are significantly more shooters these days running through a LOT more ammo than just a few years ago. Go to most any public range on an average nice weekend day and you'll see what I mean when you think back to just 8-10 years ago for comparison.

True. I used to be a member at a small local range. Four ranges each with about 10 firing positions, from 25-100 yards. I quit going there about 2-3 years ago. Nice place, usually empty, but I joined another range where I could shoot longer distances.

Anyway, I went there this morning with a friend. At 8 AM (8 AM!!) the place was 1/2 full already.


There are a LOT of new shooters out there. This is a good thing.
 
Here are some interesting facts about this industry, apologies if it is lengthy but worth the time to read.

NAICS 332992: Small Arms Ammunition Manufacturing
Industry report:

This industry includes establishments primarily engaged in manufacturing ammunition for small arms having a bore of 30 millimeters (1.18 inches) or less. Establishments primarily engaged in manufacturing ammunition, except for small arms, are classified in SIC 3483: Ammunition, Except for Small Arms; those manufacturing blasting and detonating caps and safety fuses are classified in SIC 2892: Explosives; and those manufacturing fireworks are classified in SIC 2899: Chemicals and Chemical Preparations, Not Elsewhere Classified.
Industry Snapshot
The first two decades of the twenty-first century were marked by increased sales for small arms and small arms ammunition manufacturers. Ongoing controversy over gun laws helped to boost sales and interest in shooting sports, as did concerns about self-defense. The industry saw large numbers of first-time gun buyers in the late years of the first decade of the 2000s and early 2010s, and the increase in ownership of small arms has driven sales of ammunition.

Most of the ammunition made by manufacturers in this industry was sold to private consumers. However, the U.S. Army was a major market for this industry, requiring about 300 million rounds each day by 2005. Specialized niche products also helped to promote sales for the industry, including top-end, high-performance ammunition, "cowboy-action" loads, and light recoiling ammunition targeted for the growing market segment of female gun consumers.

About 260 establishments were engaged in manufacturing ammunition for small arms having a bore of 30 millimeters (1.18 inches) or less in 2010, according to Dun & Bradstreet. Total industry sales reached $196.6 million that year, with industry-wide employment of 3,673 workers. States with the highest concentration of establishments in this industry were Texas and California (23 each), Florida (20), and Georgia and Virginia (10 each). The top producing state based on revenues was Missouri with $58.2 million.

Consumers and Trade Representatives.
Three industry and consumer groups represent ammunition interests in the United States. Most ammunition industry executives are affiliated with the National Shooting Sports Federation (NSSF), which promotes hunting and target shooting. The NSSF's sister organization, the Sporting Arms and Ammunition Manufacturers Institute (SAAMI), sets voluntary national standards for ammunition and firearm design. These groups rarely participate in political lobbying efforts, although ammo producers have traditionally donated money to support game populations and preserve hunting areas. The third and best-known organization, the National Rifle Association (NRA), is heavily involved in lobbying efforts, most of which are of interest to ammo manufacturers and users.

An Obscure Industry.
The high-profile firearm industry receives large amounts of press and is often the target of state and federal regulatory initiatives. Ammunition makers, however, operate in relative obscurity, with little publicity, regulation, or outside analysis of the industry.

One reason the industry has such a low profile is that most of its products are homogenous, resulting in a commodity-like business environment that is not dynamic. In addition, the largest producers in the industry are owned by massive conglomerates that view ammo operations as relatively small sideline businesses.

Gun and ammunition sales soared in the days following the terrorist attacks on the United States on September 11, 2001, as people once again prepared for the unexpected and looked for a sense of control and security. The Federal Bureau of Investigation reported a 21 percent increase in required background checks for gun purchases in the months following the attacks. In Maryland, where gun ownership was curtailed by strict gun laws, gun sales were up 50 to 75 percent in early October 2001. Ammunition companies responded to the events of September 11 by working on the development of a bullet that could be safely used on an airplane. The object was to make a bullet that would disintegrate on contact with a hard surface to eliminate ricochet, thus allowing pilots and security personnel to be armed in flight.

Although the rise in gun sales in the years following September 11, 2001, eventually leveled off, the sales of ammunition steadily increased. The industry shipped $888 million in products in 2002 and $1.21 billion in products in 2005. By the middle of the decade, small arms ammunition was rising much faster, driven in part by the need from the U.S. Army, which had to replenish supplies after the war with Iraq began. Quality was as important as quantity to this end market. In Business News, Paul Kern, commander of the Army Materiel Command, explained: "Our ammo has to work, at 40 below zero or 140 degrees."

The development of lighter, faster, and more accurate premium bullets ignited the interest of gun and ammunition enthusiasts. According to Terry Wieland of Sports Afield, "The new bullets hold together beautifully, retaining a high percentage of their original weight for maximum penetration. There is no need to go to the heaviest and longest bullets to achieve such performance. The virtues of the new premium bullets complement the capabilities of the new short magnum cartridges to create a combination that renders just about every conventional magnum cartridge obsolete."

In the late 2000s, small arms ammunition manufacturers held 63.8 percent of total industry share, employed 5,062 workers, and shipped products totaling $187 million. Shotgun ammunition (empty, blank, or loaded) manufacturers constituted 9.3 percent in market share, generating $15.5 million in shipments. Based on revenues, shot steel ammunition manufacturers also exhibited strong demand with shipments totaling $13.1 million.

The U.S. Treasury Department, Alcohol and Tobacco Tax and Trade Bureau reported an estimated 12 billion rounds of ammunition were purchased between November 2008 and November 2009, compared to the average 7 to 10 billion rounds of ammunition purchased annually. In fact, tax revenue from ammunition sales advanced 49 percent during the first half of 2009, compared to the same time frame in 2008. Ammunition manufacturers found themselves working at full capacity in an attempt to keep up with demand, following a nationwide ammunition shortage spurred by the election of Barack Obama. Gun owners were worried about taxes being added to ammo as well as new laws that could affect production of ammunition, and firearms and related products, including ammunition, flew off the shelves of U.S. retailers.

Current Conditions
According to Dun and Bradstreet, a majority of the establishments in this industry in 2011 reported manufacturing small arms ammunition in general and recorded a combined revenue total of $147.6 million. Companies that focused on specific products (30mm and below) included those that manufactured bullet cores, cartridges, pellets and BBs for pistols and air rifles; shotgun ammunition; lead shot; steel shot; and cartridge cases. Of these subcategories, shotgun ammunition accounted for the highest percentage of sales, with $14.3 million, followed by bullet cores ($8.6 million), lead shot ($6.1 million), and steel shot ($5.4 million).

The future of the industry was dependent on various conditions, including the state of the firearms industry in general. According to Andrew M. Molchan, director of the Professional Gun Retailers Association, as reported in the Dayton Daily News in August 2011, "gun sales have steadily increased nationwide in the last six years following the U.S. Supreme Court overturning gun bans in major cities, such as Chicago and Washington, D.C., on the grounds they violated the Second Amendment." The article also pointed to the increase in FBI background checks for gun sales, which increased from 8.5 million in 2003 to 14.4 million in 2010. Other reports, such as that by market research firm IBISWorld in August 2011, noted some challenges ahead, such as the potential increase in competition from imports.

Industry Leaders
Remington Arms Company Inc. of Madison, North Carolina, was the only maker of both fire arms and ammunition in 2011, and it was the leading small arms and ammunition dealer in the nation. The company posted revenues of $168.2 million with 2,275 employees in 2010. The company acquired rival Marlin Firearms Co. in 2008 for approximately $47 million. Other leaders in this industry included Hornady Manufacturing of Grand Island, Nebraska; Nosler Inc. in Bend, Oregon; and Alliant Techsystems Inc. of Minneapolis, Minnesota.

Most of the companies in this industry in the early 2010s were small, with about 90 percent employing fewer than 25 workers. Larger companies (those with more than 25 workers), however, accounted for more than 70 percent of all employees in the industry. Several companies focused on producing specialty cartridges, construction industry products, and reused rounds.

Workforce
According to the U.S. Census Bureau, employment in the small arms ammunition industry dropped steadily throughout the 1990s but rose again in the 2000s. In 2005, there were 8,242 employees in the industry, up from 6,740 in 2002. Of these, 6,741 worked in production and earned an average hourly wage of $18.52. By 2008, however, employment had dropped again to 5,616, and Dun and Bradstreet reported only 3,673 people directly employed by the industry in 2010.

Now pay close attention to numbers in the workforce!!! These companies are owned by large conglomerates not mom and pop operations as Mr. Hornaday and Mr. Hodgdon would lead us to believe. There profit margin has risen since this all started, prices have gone up but there overhead has not. I am still trying to trace back to actual owners of these companies as I believe there is more to this than the shooters/handloaders know. Again I apologize for the long length.:confused:
 
Safe bet that those unsourced/uncited "experts" were figuring rounds expended in combat ops in Iraq...not including Afghanistan or any training.

At the "peak" of the war, how many troops were deployed? How many of those were actually outside the wire, pulling triggers?
 
The ENTIRE US MILITARY only goes through 83.3 million rounds of ammunition a year, in a time of war?

Really?

84 million rounds ends up being something like 65 per active member of the ENTIRE US MILITARY.

Even if only 250,000 of the ~1.3M active servicemembers are "warfighters", that's less than 340 rounds per person per year.

Hell, I won't debate you as you obviously know more than I do. I mistakingly got some #'s from the article wrong. My bad. I didn't post this thread to get a shit storm stirred up. I was just really more curious about what others felt like was causing NO POWDER in alot of places. Obviously we can all speculate... But after reading alot of comments I think it's shooters freaking out buying up alot ... Companies not keeping up with demand , and other factors that I probably will never know.
Just look at the 6.5 creedmor 140 amax ammo from hornady. After 2012 lots shot unbelievable... for the most part the 2013 went to shit. And H4350 isn't even in them AND that's the suggested load data. I don't think hornady would change their load unless something forced them to = due to shortages.
 
I believe the articles proclaiming the govenment purchased XX Billion rounds of ammo are all bogus. They are propagated by groups that are solely interested in keeping the firearms market in a frenzied state so people will continue to spend more than what they typically would on firearm related items. I have had in depth discussions with management personell of ammunition manufactures that participate in govenment contracts. Their emphatic message was the government contracts are set 5 years in advance for annual quantities. Sometimes they purchase the entire years pre-planned allocation and sometimes they fall short. There has never been a year (in recent history) where the govenment has suddenly purchased XX billion rounds more than planned. Furthermore, 2013 was just like 2012 which was just like 2011 which was just like ....... you get the idea.

As far as the manufacturers increasing capacity and producing more, that requires building expansion, machine/equipment purchases and hiring new employee's when there is no assurance that this trend will last. They know that sooner or later the American public is going to wake up to the fact that they have purchased 2 lifetimes worth of reloading components and will stop buying. That means that many of them are selling now what would normally be future sales. So when the buying stops so does their revenue. I wonder how many of them will survive in a market when they are only selling a small fraction of what they are selling today.
 
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so were the congressmen asking why these agencies were buying so much ammo making it up too. 175,000 agents 3,000,000,000 rounds=17,000 rounds each. i would agree most of the ammo is at some idoits house who goes to walmart every time ammo comes in and has 200,000 22lr shells. thinks he is cool because he has them and will never shoot them
 
so were the congressmen asking why these agencies were buying so much ammo making it up too. 175,000 agents 3,000,000,000 rounds=17,000 rounds each. i would agree most of the ammo is at some idoits house who goes to walmart every time ammo comes in and has 200,000 22lr shells. thinks he is cool because he has them and will never shoot them

Nope not making it up, just responding to constituents that were burying them with phone calls, email and snail mail to get to the bottom of the rumor that DHS was buying 2 Billion rounds of ammo. The very fact that its 2 billion rounds should make someone stop and say WTF!! I don't think it is understood what kind of manufacturing task it is to make 2 billion rounds of anything.....who has that capacity??? Lake City perhaps but they wouldn't be making much for anyone else including the military.
 
You don't buy hollow points for practice.....

Yes you do. Many law enforcement agencies require practice with the same ammo as duty.

Here's a read......

In 2013 the Department of Homeland Security (DHS) issued a number of different requests for quotes for various types of ammunition totaling hundreds of millions of rounds. However, those quotes represented the upper limits of options to buy ammunition over the course of several years, not a one-time mass purchase of that number of rounds. The purpose of the proposed buys was to supply ammunition for training and use by agents of the DHS and other federal law enforcement agencies: Federal solicitations to buy the bullets are known as "strategic sourcing contracts," which help the government get a low price for a big purchase, says Peggy Dixon, spokeswoman for the Federal Law Enforcement Training Center in Glynco, Ga. The training center and others like it run by the Homeland Security Department use as many as 15 million rounds every year, mostly on shooting ranges and in training exercises.

Dixon said one of the contracts would allow Homeland Security to buy up to 750 million rounds of ammunition over the next five years for its training facilities. The rounds are used for basic and advanced law enforcement training for federal law enforcement agencies under the department's umbrella. The facilities also offer firearms training to tens of thousands of federal law enforcement officers. More than 90 federal agencies and 70,000 agents and officers used the department's training center last year.

The rest of the 1.6 billion rounds of ammunition would be purchased by Immigration and Customs Enforcement, the federal government's second largest criminal investigative agency.

[DHS Secretary Janet] Napolitano said the numbers have been exaggerated. She said the contracts that have been reported represent an option to buy up to a certain limit over five years, and are not a one-time mass purchase.

She said buying that way allows the department to save as much as 80 percent on the cost of each round.

She also said it’s not surprising the number of rounds per law enforcement agent in her department may be high because some of them have to re-qualify with their weapons several times a year
A March 2013 claim that the Department of Homeland Security had "purchased 2,700 tanks" for use in the U.S. was based on a year-old (i.e., March 2012) notice posted on the DHS web site announcing that a contractor had been engaged to install new chassis on a number of Mine Resistant Ambush Protected (MRAP) vehicles (not "tanks") that were being returned from deployment in Iraq and Afghanistan. Although similar vehicles have been used by DHS (and local police forces) for functions such as carrying Rapid Response Teams to disaster sites, the DHS did not "purchase" the MRAP vehicles referenced in that announcement, and the chassis work was contracted for by the Marine Corps Systems Command.
 
Yes you do. Many law enforcement agencies require practice with the same ammo as duty.

Here's a read......

In 2013 the Department of Homeland Security (DHS) issued a number of different requests for quotes for various types of ammunition totaling hundreds of millions of rounds. However, those quotes represented the upper limits of options to buy ammunition over the course of several years, not a one-time mass purchase of that number of rounds. The purpose of the proposed buys was to supply ammunition for training and use by agents of the DHS and other federal law enforcement agencies: Federal solicitations to buy the bullets are known as "strategic sourcing contracts," which help the government get a low price for a big purchase, says Peggy Dixon, spokeswoman for the Federal Law Enforcement Training Center in Glynco, Ga. The training center and others like it run by the Homeland Security Department use as many as 15 million rounds every year, mostly on shooting ranges and in training exercises.

Dixon said one of the contracts would allow Homeland Security to buy up to 750 million rounds of ammunition over the next five years for its training facilities. The rounds are used for basic and advanced law enforcement training for federal law enforcement agencies under the department's umbrella. The facilities also offer firearms training to tens of thousands of federal law enforcement officers. More than 90 federal agencies and 70,000 agents and officers used the department's training center last year.

The rest of the 1.6 billion rounds of ammunition would be purchased by Immigration and Customs Enforcement, the federal government's second largest criminal investigative agency.

[DHS Secretary Janet] Napolitano said the numbers have been exaggerated. She said the contracts that have been reported represent an option to buy up to a certain limit over five years, and are not a one-time mass purchase.

She said buying that way allows the department to save as much as 80 percent on the cost of each round.

She also said it’s not surprising the number of rounds per law enforcement agent in her department may be high because some of them have to re-qualify with their weapons several times a year
A March 2013 claim that the Department of Homeland Security had "purchased 2,700 tanks" for use in the U.S. was based on a year-old (i.e., March 2012) notice posted on the DHS web site announcing that a contractor had been engaged to install new chassis on a number of Mine Resistant Ambush Protected (MRAP) vehicles (not "tanks") that were being returned from deployment in Iraq and Afghanistan. Although similar vehicles have been used by DHS (and local police forces) for functions such as carrying Rapid Response Teams to disaster sites, the DHS did not "purchase" the MRAP vehicles referenced in that announcement, and the chassis work was contracted for by the Marine Corps Systems Command.

Did I miss something in this article where it talks about them using the same ammo for practice as they carry for duty?
 
Did I miss something in this article where it talks about them using the same ammo for practice as they carry for duty?

No you didn't miss it, the article addressed the details of the ammo purchases. The statement I made regarding practice and duty ammo for law enforcement is a well known fact. I know its not practical for you and I and the rest of John Q public to practice with hollow point ammo because of the associated cost. However, when your job potentially places your life at risk its not a good time to find out that hollow point ammo performs differently than the FMJ you have been practicing with.
 
Gas was $1.89 when the current president took office. They claim inflation was 1.3% last year but the take out energy & food.

"THEY" structured a gas shortage, prices went up, and will never go down. The oil industry posted record profits. Now it's ammo. Gee , seems like a good business plan, to me. While we get screwed, in the check out line.
 
Has the average yearly income more than doubled since Obama took office? Here's a hint: you shouldn't have to look up the answer.

Making less, spending more. We all know our present government wants the middle class gone.

We also know we the middle class are the heart of this country.