Thoughts on this SWFA combo for a 3 gun style setup?

[58blackflag]

I'm starting to explore option on a 3 gun style rifle/optic setup and I came across this combo from SWFA.
SWFA SS-AR *1* Match Rifle 16" SS Match .223 W/ SSHD16X24D

For those with 3 gun experience, would this be a good setup to start with?

I know there is some debate over the preferred length of gas system on ARs depending on barrel length, usage, load...should I be looking for something with a mid or rifle length gas system?

My intention would be to shoot heavier (69-77gr) bullets and sometimes use my TBAC 30P-1 on the gun. Usage would be for 3 gun and or events like the Thunderbeast Team Challenge where engaging targets out to 500ish yards.

Thanks for any thoughts or suggestions.

 

[Hummerdawg]

You could do better for less money

 

[Cobracutter]

You could do better for less money

Exactly. That is nothing but a bunch of seekins parts and no name componets thrown together.

SWFA shouls stick to optics... just beacuse you can put some parts together, does not make your a gun manufacturer.

And the fact that it doesnt even come with a mount for the optic... is just laughable.

 

[bronson90]

Exactly. That is nothing but a bunch of seekins parts and no name componets thrown together.

SWFA shouls stick to optics... just beacuse you can put some parts together, does not make your a gun manufacturer.

And the fact that it doesnt even come with a mount for the optic... is just laughable.

First and foremost your statements are certainly welcomed, but with that said please understand that they are purely subjective in nature... Common sense says that what one values in a build others may not and that's just nature of the beast. It's my opinion that you both may be over thinking this and perhaps missing the true intent behind SWFA's offering. I personally don't know what their intent was but an educated guess would be that they are targeting an audience that is looking for "out of the box" black rifle that is ready to go while not requiring any real modifications. Maybe I am mistaken but from my perspective, I think they are very close in doing just that. Seemingly all of the components used to build the rifle come from arguably top of the line manufacturers; now I didn't say the best, but they all certainly are in top 3-5 in each of their respective categories. Everything from the Mike Rock (Rock Creek) barrel to the Giessele trigger and the JP Rifles captured buffer are just to name a few. At this time I'm unaware of another manufacturer that offers those components or similar in their base model rifle...

My guess is that the point of not offering a mount was aimed at accommodating the different tastes of different shooters; not to mention those who already own mounts and would not require one. Furthermore, I do own numerous black rifles including multiple GAP-10's and have a significant amount of time hunting behind each. I have absolutely no 3-Gun competition experience so please take that into consideration when reading my comments.

The purpose of my response was purely informational and not written with any antagonistic intent...

 

[Cobracutter]

Its not out of the box if there is no interface between the two major componets of the system.

The fact that SWFA sells just about every brand mount out there except nightforce, and private brands with companies like BOBRO and Burris, it leaves on scratching their head what they are thinking. What if someone wants a different Scope? It defeats the whole purpose of a turn key, out of the "box" solution.

The gun is a no name parts gun. No one knows what kind of barrel, bolt, LPK's, or other parts were used. Furthermore, no one knows if the moneys who assemble it actualy know what they are doing. The only thing I see identifiable on it is a seekins style lower. I would love to know how you know they use all high end componets. Have a source? SWFA SS-AR *1* Match Rifle 16" SS Match .223 W/ SSHD16X24D gives us jack shit for information.

You can buy an SR-15 that is a known quanity for the same money and throw the same optic on there. For a tad more, you can get a JP rifle that will serve that purpose better than anything. Or, You can build a gun with high end parts, for less. Who stands behind this gun when something breaks? Who even made it? its a $2,000 rifle when you take optic out of the equation. For $2K, what does it offer? When it breaks or starts running funny, who is going to take care of it?

Like I said, any monkey can throw parts together, that doesn't make you a manufacturer. That makes you an assembler. One with dubious petigree, no track record, and questionable origin. Yea.......lets all send out money to them.

 

[Danco411]

It is a Seekins based rifle which is not bad but as stated above for $2100 you can build a killer rifle. I love Glenn Seekins stuff. The recievers are superb and I would definately go that route. You can get the Seekins SPR billet lower for $250 and the MSCR monolithic upper and rail for another $450. Add at top notch drop in 18" SPR barrel like a Lilja, Ranier or Lothar Walther for $300-$400. Geiselle 3G trigger for $260, NIB BCG for $220, Seekins Comp for $90, BCM charge handle for $45 and you choice of stock, tube, spring and grip for another $150. I would never use a UBR for 3 Gun. It weighs a metric crap ton. So for $1700ish you have a killer rifle with parts you chose. Add the Bushy 1-6 Optic for $1300 in an ADM mount and you have it about as good as it gets for the same price.

 

[SWFA]

To say that this rifle is a bunch of no name parts thrown together with some Seekins parts tells me right away you have never handled one of our rifles. We didn’t use any “Lower Parts Kits” in our rifles. The lower consists of quality parts from various manufactures.

Here is a list of every part in our guns, none of which are “no name” as you said multiple times.

Rock Creek barrels made for us by them and labeled as SWFA SS match barrels. The barrel is paired up with a Seekins Stainless AR ATC Compensator which is also made for us and labeled with our SWFA logo. The melonited adjustable gas block and gas tube are from Seekins Precision. The handguards are one of two options Seekins MCSR or Seekins SP3R and are made for us by Seekins and branded with our SS logo. The uppers are either the Seekins IRMT-3 or IRMT-R uppers with our SS logos and come with the same titanium barrel nuts Seekins uses. The lowers are Seekins lowers also branded with our logos. The melonited BCGs come directly from Seekins too. The triggers are Geissele 2 stage triggers. The mag release button is a Seekins Billet mag release button. The safeties are Badger Ordnance Universal Safety Selectors. The Charging handle is a Rainier Arms Raptor Charging handle made for us with our logo by Rainier Arms. All of the pins and detents in the lower are KNS pins and detents with the exception of the trigger pins which are the ones Geissele supplies with their trigger. The grip is a Magpul MOE+ grip. The stock is a Magpul UBR stock. Inside the stock you will find JP Rifles Silent Captured Buffer system.

I can assure you a Monkey did not throw these together. Seekins assembles these rifles for us and even tests them before delivery. As far as the warranty goes it is handled by us, just like all of our SS products.

You probably could build a rifle with high end parts for less, depending on what your definition of high end is. However, if you bought every single specific part in this setup you would pay more for it than what we have them listed at and you would still have to assemble the whole thing.

 

[Redmanss]

Soooo.... It's a Seekins built rifle, using some damn fine components at a price less than a rifle directly from Seekins? Sounds like a good deal to me. I don't see a single shortcut on that entire spec list.

Stock selection is personal choice. I like how the UBR balances a rifle with a heavier contour barrel, but it's not the solution for all builds. They sell off easily if you decide you don't like it.

Of course, it's the internet and no matter what some people will always find something to complain about, especially under false assumptions and speculations. I guess it's not fan-boy enough to be the envy of all the other girls at the range and forums.

 

[svt_tactical]

As far as the warranty goes it is handled by us, just like all of our SS products.

That right there is worth allot should the need ever arrive, which given the components and build quality Seekins puts into their work, I highly doubt you ever will.


These guns aren't for everyone, and are pricey, but as noted above, if you bought the exact parts to put a gun together using the same build list, you'd spend more. These are out the box high end guns that need no changes to run with the best out there.

 

[MarkCO]

Looks like an okay rifle, but there are a few glaring issues. First is the 16" barrel (mid or carbine), second is the M16 carrier. 3Gun is about speed and those two choices are going to be slower than a properly spec'd 18" barrel with a Low mass carrier. Now with the suppressor on it in a slower style of match, it might be close. Seekins does produce wonderful parts and a few of my personal builds use their handguards. Their comp is, IMHO one of the top on the market. The stock and trigger are personal preference issues, so if you like those parts, then great. There is a ton of sizzle to 3Gun right now and everyone wants into the market, but there really are not many of the "3Gun" directed packages that are worth it, especially when you have to go changing out $500 worth of parts to make the rifle suit your liking, preferences and tasks. If you are going to spend anywhere north of about $1200 or so on a rifle, it better have ALL the parts you really want. The only real way to know is to shoot others guns with certain set-ups. Just realize, the optimized AR is a combination of shooter interface, ammo, barrel, gas system, BCG. Starting out, you won't see much difference between a M&P Sport, this SWFA, and the "perfectly" tuned AR. It takes a while to learn all the "stuff" and a 2MOA rifle with Iron sights is fine to get you started in Limited.

This is not to say that the SWFA is not a good rifle, just not best suited to your stated purposes. As far as debate on the 18" rifle length gas barrel, I think you will find little debate among those who shoot major 3Gun matches on a regular basis. If you hit the 3GN ProTour, yep, they are running short barrels and basically .22Mag power level ammo, but they don't shoot past 100 yards and they are running highly tuned dragsters.

 

[58blackflag]

I should have followed up after my initial post.... I called SWFA to ask some questions after my initial post and talked with Skylar. He went over all the parts with me as outlined above in the post. Like he mentions, I did a sum of parts calc and the gun offered is cheaper than you could built it yourself.

I realized after some more digging a true pupose built "3 gun" rifle like MarkCO describes above probably isn't exactly what I'm after...more so, a practical precision field rifle if that makes more sense. With that being said, I'm still not sure if an 18" barrel and rifle length gas system would work better. I want to be able to hit 10-12" targets out to 500ish. So that's roughly a 2 MOA gun at 500. I'm not interested in shooting light loads at 10 yards as fast as Jerry miculak (even though I wish I could!) more so having an accurate easy handling semi auto that could be used for 3 gun or practical field shooting.

I'm still looking around but this one is on my maybe list for sure. Thanks all for your comments and suggestions!

 

[jasonk]

I've been out of town, so just seeing this thread. As a guy that actually owns that rifle, I'm probably better to speak about its quality, accuracy, parts, etc than all the others that "think" they know about this rifle.

As stated, it's built with all grade A parts. Mine was easily a 1 moa gun, could likely be better if I actually tried more than one weight of bullet and did some load work up. 16" barrel is where it's at, short enough to be nimble, no SBR stuff, can still throw a suppressor on and not be too long.....and still easily hit stuff to 500ish. Actually, if you look, Seekins newest 3 gun rifle on his site has a 14.5" barrel with a pinned comp on it. I played with it plenty at SHOT, the shorter barrel makes it quicker to swing and faster to shoot and Glen tells me they've taken it out to 700+ with very good results.

Now if I was buying that gun for 3 gun, I'd likely do two things. #1 I'd sell the UBR for $200+ and get a lighter stock, making it easier to handle and move with. #2 I'd pull the trigger and sell it, upgrading to the Super 3gun trigger from Geissele. So I'd sell those parts for close to $400, put about $300 back into it and have $100 left over to buy a mount and have a very kick ass practical precision/3 gun rifle.

Also....I assume you saw the SWFA tax day sale? Get it today, save some money!!!

 

[Cobracutter]

So where is the mount?

Let me guess its users choice? Well so is the stock, and grip and muzzle comp and just about every other spec on the rifle.

UBR is a piss poor stock for 3G. Its really a piss poor stock for anything.

 

[jasonk]

So where is the mount?

Let me guess its users choice? Well so is the stock, and grip and muzzle comp and just about every other spec on the rifle.

UBR is a piss poor stock for 3G. Its really a piss poor stock for anything.

I think this post really adds a lot to the discussion, I know you've changed my mind with it, thanks for the additional input.

 

[Cobracutter]

I am still waiting for the answer to why this does not include a mount.

And if seekins builds the rifle, what qualifies an optic company to do the warranty work? Do you have experinced armorers with pedigree and diagnostic experince in fixing these problems? Its a glorified parts gun built by a company that does not have a track record of building guns (not to knock seekins, love his products). Making parts and making a system work are not the same thing. It takes much more experince and knowledge on the warranty side to fix problems then it takes to build a gun.

Why would I spend SR-15 or JP money on an unproven gun? Especialy one that offers nothing that most "monkeys" can build themselves using COTS.

 

[Cobracutter]

I should have followed up after my initial post.... I called SWFA to ask some questions after my initial post and talked with Skylar. He went over all the parts with me as outlined above in the post. Like he mentions, I did a sum of parts calc and the gun offered is cheaper than you could built it yourself.

I realized after some more digging a true pupose built "3 gun" rifle like MarkCO describes above probably isn't exactly what I'm after...more so, a practical precision field rifle if that makes more sense. With that being said, I'm still not sure if an 18" barrel and rifle length gas system would work better. I want to be able to hit 10-12" targets out to 500ish. So that's roughly a 2 MOA gun at 500. I'm not interested in shooting light loads at 10 yards as fast as Jerry miculak (even though I wish I could!) more so having an accurate easy handling semi auto that could be used for 3 gun or practical field shooting.

I'm still looking around but this one is on my maybe list for sure. Thanks all for your comments and suggestions!

Then buy a colt 6920 and be done. Easy 2MOA rifle with decent ammo. Rifle Squad DMR guys were issued a m4 with TA31 Acog and a bipod and were shwacking dudes at 500yards easy. well within your 10-12" requirement. Just saved you a ton of money.

Barrel length gives you addition velocity and ability to run a longer gas system. Longer gas system = smoother cycling and less wear and tear on componets. It also all things being equal, will have a lower recoil impulse and faster follow up shots.

 

[58blackflag]

SWFA told me they didn't include a mount to keep the package under 3k...seems a bit dumb since you need one anyway unless you already have one.

Regardless, with the tax day sale the rifle, scope, and SWFA Bobro mount are less than $2800/shipped.