Good argument for all those naysayers about the FA being worthless. The slickside cool club.
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Good argument for all those naysayers about the FA being worthless. The slickside cool club.
Aguila 55gr, first shots of the revolucion.
I think this is one of those topics where the only correct answer is: buy what you want.
When it comes AR's and what they can cost, one man's "hype/marketing/branding" is another's "reputation/quality/experience" and in the end if you don't agree with another's choice, who cares, it's not your wallet.
Personally, and this is just me, unless I'm fast-roping out of a helicopter into a range that shoots back and a government agency is paying the tab, I don't see any justification for some of the really outrageously-priced brands after having owned them (looking at you KAC and Giessele). But, I still think: if one wants one, get one, it's your money. In some ways, having bought some of the high-end stuff is partly how I taught myself what good stuff is supposed to be.
That said, after you've played with these toys for long enough to where you can almost cobble one together blindfolded, IMHO the roll mark doesn't really matter anymore and that sort of becomes the last thing I care about.
However, if you're one of these douchebags running a KAC/Giessele/Radian/etc with some fancy optic(s) on top, but with one of the stock shitty mil-spec triggers many of them come with, you suck at life, buy a real trigger you cheap bastard.
When it comes AR's and what they can cost, one man's "hype/marketing/branding" is another's "reputation/quality/experience" and in the end if you don't agree with another's choice, who cares, it's not your wallet.
Personally, and this is just me, unless I'm fast-roping out of a helicopter into a range that shoots back and a government agency is paying the tab, I don't see any justification for some of the really outrageously-priced brands after having owned them (looking at you KAC and Giessele). But, I still think: if one wants one, get one, it's your money. In some ways, having bought some of the high-end stuff is partly how I taught myself what good stuff is supposed to be.
That said, after you've played with these toys for long enough to where you can almost cobble one together blindfolded, IMHO the roll mark doesn't really matter anymore and that sort of becomes the last thing I care about.
However, if you're one of these douchebags running a KAC/Giessele/Radian/etc with some fancy optic(s) on top, but with one of the stock shitty mil-spec triggers many of them come with, you suck at life, buy a real trigger you cheap bastard.
Yup, been there and done that regarding the high priced stuff. 35% off was hard to say no to on the Geissele. Now I build and I get why everyone here suggested it when I first joined (should have listened sooner). Obviously this is different for AR10s where buying from a reputable brand can save some headache.
Only AR15 I still want to try is JP.
I was being a bit flippant when I used the word hype. These threads are really kind of silly anyway. Is the OP going to convince me that my KAC is a POS and that I should throw it in the trash?
Engineering is a thing.
Should I start bashing the SCAR 17 because another friend has one, ran Tulammo in it, and had a case separation? I bet a shitty AK wouldn't have that problem.
How about new HK pistols that won't run weak 115 grain ammo but have a 25K spring life with 124 NATO? A $299 Taurus 24/7 wouldn't have those issues.
I had a little experience with an SR15 when a friend bought one in 2012. He runs his reloads as well as tons of M855 through it, rarely cleans it, and I have never seen any malfunctions. I liked how it shot, both reliability, how smooth it felt, and the overall build quality. I kept my eye out for one and found one when prices hit rock bottom.
My other AR, that I built in 2008, is a complete frankengun. Sabre Defense, VTAC, Bushmaster, Yankee Hill, LaRue, DPMS, Spikes, and Magpul are all represented. It has been shot in 3-gun and other tactical matches, carbine classes, prairie dog hunts, and for general fun.
I cannot complain about how well it has performed but the SR15 is a complete package. I couldn't put together a gun of it's quality at the same price point.
If you want to shoot mediocre ammo, go buy a Colt 6920, or a $349 PSA kit with an overgassed carbine gas system, and have fun. Tell me how it's running when you hit 5K rounds.
I had to replace the barrel. Other than that g2g.I was being a bit flippant when I used the word hype. These threads are really kind of silly anyway. Is the OP going to convince me that my KAC is a POS and that I should throw it in the trash?
Engineering is a thing.
Should I start bashing the SCAR 17 because another friend has one, ran Tulammo in it, and had a case separation? I bet a shitty AK wouldn't have that problem.
How about new HK pistols that won't run weak 115 grain ammo but have a 25K spring life with 124 NATO? A $299 Taurus 24/7 wouldn't have those issues.
I had a little experience with an SR15 when a friend bought one in 2012. He runs his reloads as well as tons of M855 through it, rarely cleans it, and I have never seen any malfunctions. I liked how it shot, both reliability, how smooth it felt, and the overall build quality. I kept my eye out for one and found one when prices hit rock bottom.
My other AR, that I built in 2008, is a complete frankengun. Sabre Defense, VTAC, Bushmaster, Yankee Hill, LaRue, DPMS, Spikes, and Magpul are all represented. It has been shot in 3-gun and other tactical matches, carbine classes, prairie dog hunts, and for general fun.
I cannot complain about how well it has performed but the SR15 is a complete package. I couldn't put together a gun of it's quality at the same price point.
If you want to shoot mediocre ammo, go buy a Colt 6920, or a $349 PSA kit with an overgassed carbine gas system, and have fun. Tell me how it's running when you hit 5K rounds.
Short Dot Zero and other zero w/ home rolled 77s from the other day a w/ 16" Mod2 w/ @ 4k through the pipe, most of which has been Wolf. (Rough zero to the right) 
@MarshallDodge I totally agree with you, it IS all about engineering. If you want to shoot shit ammo all you need to do is buy a Romanian AK47 with a milled upper, a truckload of steel cased Russian 7.62x39 and go to town! The AK will last far longer than your desire to shoot will because that is the ONLY thing it was engineered to do.
As Mr. Alexander pointed out, his AR15s are tested on specific ammo, and all of the high end makers like AA, KAC, LMT, Noveske, etc. are engineering these guns to perform in other ways than just going "boom". I have several high end AR's that I hunt various game with, as I am sure many here do. On the other hand, when have you ever seen anyone show up to shoot prairie dogs with an AK47?
I was being a bit flippant when I used the word hype. These threads are really kind of silly anyway. Is the OP going to convince me that my KAC is a POS and that I should throw it in the trash?
Engineering is a thing.
Should I start bashing the SCAR 17 because another friend has one, ran Tulammo in it, and had a case separation? I bet a shitty AK wouldn't have that problem.
How about new HK pistols that won't run weak 115 grain ammo but have a 25K spring life with 124 NATO? A $299 Taurus 24/7 wouldn't have those issues.
I had a little experience with an SR15 when a friend bought one in 2012. He runs his reloads as well as tons of M855 through it, rarely cleans it, and I have never seen any malfunctions. I liked how it shot, both reliability, how smooth it felt, and the overall build quality. I kept my eye out for one and found one when prices hit rock bottom.
My other AR, that I built in 2008, is a complete frankengun. Sabre Defense, VTAC, Bushmaster, Yankee Hill, LaRue, DPMS, Spikes, and Magpul are all represented. It has been shot in 3-gun and other tactical matches, carbine classes, prairie dog hunts, and for general fun.
I cannot complain about how well it has performed but the SR15 is a complete package. I couldn't put together a gun of it's quality at the same price point.
If you want to shoot mediocre ammo, go buy a Colt 6920, or a $349 PSA kit with an overgassed carbine gas system, and have fun. Tell me how it's running when you hit 5K rounds.
You could 100% build a gun of even better quality for cheaper. You have $2400 to work with.
Didn't Bill go to work for HK?...he was there 2018ish at least.
I definitely agree that you can definitely build a gun every bit as high quality as the KAC SR15 for less money because it is direct impingement. Rivaling the SCAR or the HK 416 is tougher because those guns are gas piston driven, and even though you can do a relatively economical conversion on DI upper, in my experience those just do not have the same quality as a high end OEM upper.
In this thread, we highlight the fact that 99.97% of AR owners think a high round count is something over 2500 rounds, spend 4.5 hours cleaning their AR after shooting <50 rounds off a bench for a 'training session' and get upset when they notice their trigger guard now has a scratch on it as it goes back to live in the safe with the rest of the rifles that have a combined round count that is less than what the other .03% of us shoot in a week.
In closing, most gun people have literally no fucking clue as to why most (not all) higher end carbines are better in ways that they will never actually come even remotely close to testing the limits of, nor do they even know exist, because they're still reading shit from the 1960s.
In closing, most gun people have literally no fucking clue as to why most (not all) higher end carbines are better in ways that they will never actually come even remotely close to testing the limits of, nor do they even know exist, because they're still reading shit from the 1960s.
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I haven't messed with piston yet, but I guess you could just start with a LMT upper and work from there.
Even just using an ADM lower you get a more functional ambi than KAC. Now add in a Larue trigger, vltor buffer system, criterion barrel..ect
I'm sure you could build a system better than any of the top names...................
You've got how many of those builds under your belt now? Since March of 2020.
With how many hours & rounds of testing in the field under different & combat circumstances?
How's your QA on all the purchased components?
MM
I'm sure you could build a system better than any of the top names...................
You've got how many of those builds under your belt now? Since March of 2020.
With how many hours & rounds of testing in the field under different & combat circumstances?
How's your QA on all the purchased components?
MM
Am I designing parts or putting things together that are mainly all made to a similar spec? Your point is moot.
Oh...and how many of the people posting here are in an active war zone?
Thanks.
Be sure to let the shooting world know when you bring your version of the SR-15 or 25 to the market so we can all go out & grab one.
Laughin' here.................but rock on in your fantasy wannabe world.
MM
HK MR223 failure to feed in cold
Hello, I got HK MR223 as used 1 year ago and it had had over 2k through it, the surface of the gun was in very nice condition but the barrel looked it could have been more than 2k. Shortly after buying it I shot 200-400 rounds with it in 2 days in -17C/1.4F to -10C/14F without cleaning and no...
www.snipershide.com Granted, this dude is in Finland, but there's guys that spent between $8000-5000 on the batches that are being brought to the US. Ya know, because the $3k+ MR556 is just silly. I bet you could soil some HK fanatic britches with the above.
Proprietary stuff is great till it isn't. Most of the time it doesn't have to be messed with, but if it does...you're fucked.
IMHO, Jim Hodge had the right idea with his Mod1 rifle some years ago. Just piece a rifle together nice and tight with good components already on the market. No proprietary bullshit that can't be replaced in a pinch...or if you need to tell your rail supplier to pound sand...
slowdown, plenty of colts, dd, bcm run just fine way way past 5k. let's not get stupid hereI was being a bit flippant when I used the word hype. These threads are really kind of silly anyway. Is the OP going to convince me that my KAC is a POS and that I should throw it in the trash?
Engineering is a thing.
Should I start bashing the SCAR 17 because another friend has one, ran Tulammo in it, and had a case separation? I bet a shitty AK wouldn't have that problem.
How about new HK pistols that won't run weak 115 grain ammo but have a 25K spring life with 124 NATO? A $299 Taurus 24/7 wouldn't have those issues.
I had a little experience with an SR15 when a friend bought one in 2012. He runs his reloads as well as tons of M855 through it, rarely cleans it, and I have never seen any malfunctions. I liked how it shot, both reliability, how smooth it felt, and the overall build quality. I kept my eye out for one and found one when prices hit rock bottom.
My other AR, that I built in 2008, is a complete frankengun. Sabre Defense, VTAC, Bushmaster, Yankee Hill, LaRue, DPMS, Spikes, and Magpul are all represented. It has been shot in 3-gun and other tactical matches, carbine classes, prairie dog hunts, and for general fun.
I cannot complain about how well it has performed but the SR15 is a complete package. I couldn't put together a gun of it's quality at the same price point.
If you want to shoot mediocre ammo, go buy a Colt 6920, or a $349 PSA kit with an overgassed carbine gas system, and have fun. Tell me how it's running when you hit 5K rounds.
Maybe I was rambling earlier but I’m not sure I get the point anyways. Like what’s the context? My main experience was with the colts that had DD hand guards put on them and those uppers and barrels got shot to piss. Treated like crap, the most guys ever did was boresnake the barrel. Scraping the BCG with a Gerber to get carbon off. Rode hard and put away wet for weeks at a time, then it’s time for some BS inspection so guys just start scraping with gerbers. I’m not saying it was right it was actually all pretty dumb.
But in the end the craziest thing I saw happen was a guy had a trigger spring break in a firefight. But I’m pretty sure he had aftermarket parts in the gun he wasn’t supposed to have, plus it was below zero temps that night.
The army had some posse of civilian dod employees that would come through ever so often and do a full inspection. I’m guessing that helped. So perhaps the guns got parts replaced at intervals but once again what’s the context? Like if I bought an AR for self defense am I going to be laying the greentip scunion or is it more likely I’ll just need to shoot less than a mag to get my point across?
If I’m in the wasteland and people are killing each other over chapstick and gasoline, and I have like 10,000 rounds would I be better off with a high end AR? Probably but then again I might be better off running away. Like if my AR is for doomsday shouldn’t I just buy a cheap one and zero it and never touch it? Instead of constantly training with and wearing out the gun I plan on using to raid a warlords water tower?
But in the end the craziest thing I saw happen was a guy had a trigger spring break in a firefight. But I’m pretty sure he had aftermarket parts in the gun he wasn’t supposed to have, plus it was below zero temps that night.
The army had some posse of civilian dod employees that would come through ever so often and do a full inspection. I’m guessing that helped. So perhaps the guns got parts replaced at intervals but once again what’s the context? Like if I bought an AR for self defense am I going to be laying the greentip scunion or is it more likely I’ll just need to shoot less than a mag to get my point across?
If I’m in the wasteland and people are killing each other over chapstick and gasoline, and I have like 10,000 rounds would I be better off with a high end AR? Probably but then again I might be better off running away. Like if my AR is for doomsday shouldn’t I just buy a cheap one and zero it and never touch it? Instead of constantly training with and wearing out the gun I plan on using to raid a warlords water tower?
My old BCM middy won't run on steel cased ammo either.
This thread started out on the borderline of stupid, I'm just trying my best to keep it there
- Nov 3, 2010
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Just borderline stupid?My old BCM middy won't run on steel cased ammo either.
This thread started out on the borderline of stupid, I'm just trying my best to keep it there
My only SR15 is a 11.5 cqb mod2 on a Stag SBR lower. Sprinco Blue and KAC buffer and AAC556sd can. Its always suppressed and always goes bang. Wolf steel to Black Hills 77 grain TMK and everything in between. And i don’t clean it much, just lube it with Mobil 1. At some point it’s super filthy and I give it a clean but I hate cleaning guns.
In a really odd and back handed way, this is the most salient "just as good" argument that has ever been put to keyboard...
Gunsmith answer: all ARs are dogshit until they're through the armory bench. not meaning that as a knock on high end or low end ARs, mostly that the platform as a general rule is more prone to stacking tolerances than some others, particularly with manufacturers that use outsourced parts.
the main thing that you pay for besides the roll mark on things like LMT and KAC stuff is that they make the vast majority of parts in house, not because it's easier but because they have contracts that call for a chain of certification back to the original raw material. and I don't mean where they bought the block (though that is part of it), but where the aluminum/steel/etc itself was melted. This gives them more control over those stacking tolerances, and as a result the entire system is far less likely to be out of spec, but it is not impossible.
Someone further up in the thread put it very well. Price doesn't guarantee quality, but it usually gives you a better shot at it and 99% of the time better customer service in the rare event you don't.
A career in aerospace QC and a side passion for gunsmithing have combined to give me a healthy dose of skepticism on any "factory fresh" rifle.
the main thing that you pay for besides the roll mark on things like LMT and KAC stuff is that they make the vast majority of parts in house, not because it's easier but because they have contracts that call for a chain of certification back to the original raw material. and I don't mean where they bought the block (though that is part of it), but where the aluminum/steel/etc itself was melted. This gives them more control over those stacking tolerances, and as a result the entire system is far less likely to be out of spec, but it is not impossible.
Someone further up in the thread put it very well. Price doesn't guarantee quality, but it usually gives you a better shot at it and 99% of the time better customer service in the rare event you don't.
A career in aerospace QC and a side passion for gunsmithing have combined to give me a healthy dose of skepticism on any "factory fresh" rifle.
I think its one his 'less than good' posts and I'ma fan of the german!. Lots of nonsense and conjecture thats simply not present in this thread. This notwithstanding, there is the law of diminishing returns with respect to a product that has become almost commoditized And through modern manufacturing the gap between good and just as good has really narrowed. that post reminded me of a consultants rambling trying to validate their need to a line of business lol
I still can't believe the suggestion that a kac will not run because it was designed for specific military ammo and in that long ridiculous soliloquy, and in this thread, no one is highlighted the fact that due to testing there will always only be a specific ammo so that the variables of testing are controlled!
These rifles are virtually a commoditized product so there's only so much the platform can be improved and given the price of these improvements the law of dimension returns is certainly applicable. QC costs money smaller shops marketing cost money there are a whole host of things that go into the expanded price point. there is one other thing that very few people seem to grasp is the difference between material and immaterial
By the way when I told my kac that she could only run on a specific ammo she laughed at me and said bitch let's get this on, the colt said I'd one up her and my bushmaster said hold my beer...lol.
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Big fan of using Mobil 1. really is the besy imho. I use it and in Alaska in sub freezing temps I had zero jelling or slowing bolt issues. i can't recall a single temp condition where i ever had issues related to. Fine sand is another matter.....lol
The letters KAC cast a spell on weak minds when it comes to parts.
They are saving up for the KAC 2-stage trigger upgrade (on sale now) for only $599.
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KAC who? HDSI for the win
(Just kidding, they’re both great). I just dislike proprietary anything.
(Just kidding, they’re both great). I just dislike proprietary anything.
What has been stepped over in this thread is the bolt for the SR15. From an engineering standpoint - it's a better design. You can say 'just as good', but it isn't; and there is no getting around that.
Wolf has only been a problem for me in 55 grain with a 10.5 while unsuppressed. 62 grain - no issue in the 10.5. In time I realized I never had an issue regardless of weight w/ an 11.5 and ditched the 10.5.
They all fail if you shoot them enough, that includes my AKs.
Best of luck
Wolf has only been a problem for me in 55 grain with a 10.5 while unsuppressed. 62 grain - no issue in the 10.5. In time I realized I never had an issue regardless of weight w/ an 11.5 and ditched the 10.5.
They all fail if you shoot them enough, that includes my AKs.
Best of luck
Anyone got any opinions on Midwest industries? I got an upper I’m going to put an 18” barrel on and it’s in an aero lower.
What in the back river Louisiana are you trying to say?
Same ol' same ol'.........................just another mil-spec forged upper, just like any other.
MM
Ding ding ding, we have a winner. The value is in the upper when it comes to KAC. Same could be said about LMT but their MARs receiver is nice.
Might be an unpopular opinion but I think KAC is overrated. You're spending nearly $3k on a base rifle, but what are you getting for the higher cost as compared to DD, ADM, Radian, etc? Not a lot for your standard consumer in my opinion. Granted, 99.9% of all ar15 users won't put 30k on a rifle ever so the effects of the engineering put into their stuff really won't be seen.
I consider Midwest Industries stuff somewhere between Aero Precision and BCM.
Thanks for the opinion.
I gotta be honest about my previous posts (I did say I was ignorant) and admit that now, as I am finally “building” my own AR I am not necessarily fixated on buying a top level upper but after doing some research I am a little worried about checking all of my parts to make sure they are all in spec and the right size and I am learning about this tolerance stacking concept. So I get where people are coming from wanting a gun that is going to be more likely to be put together right but I am feeling like I’d like to control that myself, although I’m sure it’s out of my knowledge level to some degree.
I gotta be honest about my previous posts (I did say I was ignorant) and admit that now, as I am finally “building” my own AR I am not necessarily fixated on buying a top level upper but after doing some research I am a little worried about checking all of my parts to make sure they are all in spec and the right size and I am learning about this tolerance stacking concept. So I get where people are coming from wanting a gun that is going to be more likely to be put together right but I am feeling like I’d like to control that myself, although I’m sure it’s out of my knowledge level to some degree.
Radians cost more than KAC and have nothing special in them
That's true & they have no real, proven track record................but they are nice to look at.
MM
MM
My bad. I swear last time I looked at them they were somewhere in the 2400 range. At least the radians have ambi bolt hold open with the mag catch and a better safety selector in my opinion. I'd still rather have an ADM for 1k less.
if you are building then just buy aero parts and be done, you won't be disappointed and will serve you well
This thread is what I would think an AI vs Savage thread would look like on arfcom.
Come on man!
It takes dedication and hours of paint sniffing before your ARs start talking to you.
It's the things you don't know that you don't even know and the things you don't use therefore don't know that they even exist.
So lets get this out of the way; if you're buying an AR platform for 'plinking' or 'home defense' yet you don't even remotely train with it, you're a tourist and can literally just buy a DPMS Sportical, 3 mags and a 500 round box of FMJ ammo and call it good. Buying a KAC for this is like buying a 30k riding lawnmower to cut 1/4 acre of grass.
If you're really going to use and train with the carbine, use it and not worry about how pretty it looks in a safe and put rounds through it on a weekly basis, it then makes sense to buy something that will A. work in these conditions B. was designed specifically for this C. was then further enhanced to deal with the stresses of this.
So right off the bat, weapons like the DD, ADM, Colt, FN, Radian (I'm curious what is actually enhanced in their BCG because they always mention it but I cant find them ever telling you what it actually is) cover A and B. So we're 66% there for the most part.
A few things:
- Claims of sub MOA on a carbine are fine, but no one gives a shit. Why? Because its a fucking carbine, not an Barrett MRAD. The vast majority of shots in combat will be at distances <100 yards, and anything over 150ish is suppressive fire anyways. Very very rarely is someone sitting there trying to shoot at someone accurately at 500m with a fucking 11.5 carbine or any carbine in general. There's also a whole terminal ballistics argument to have here too, but we'll go around that today.
- The largest cause of failures and stoppages are magazines and ammo. If you remove these with non shit magazines that are marked and rotated as well as known ammo that your gun is made for, you basically negate this altogether.
- The largest cause of stoppages that are not able to be remedied quickly by an IAD are a firing pin failure, or failure of a wear part on the BCG.
As I said before, not knowing what you don't know; the KAC guys have specifically designed cam pins, bolts, and stepped firing pins that were engineered to specifically combat these wear/bearing surfaces from failure within a system that was engineered to be used with full power ammunition yet have reduced recoil in a carbine buffer/longer than midlength gas system setup. Toss in some other things like they're own rails and ambi lowers (which I dont really care about) and there you are.
Some things are worth more to certain people than what they add up to on a price tag. That's the difference between the 'just as good' group and us.
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