I've got the SBR bug, and I'm wondering if anyone has any experience in shooting a POF P415 SBR (10.5" barrel) with a Thunderbeast 30BA can. I love my 30BA, and I wondered if there were any barrel length restrictions with the can.
Suppressors Thunderbeast 30BA with POF P415 SBR (10.5" barrel)
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Zak, I am not one to question your product line and what would be better for what but there is a weight difference of 8 ounces between the 223A and the 223P-1. For full auto use I would agree, you need that tougher can, but if you will never be shooting full auto, and will only use the can for a semi SBR, that extra 8 ounces of weight savings is pretty substantial and using the 223P-1 on a SBR will deliver better tactical performance.
The 223A weighs nearly 23 Oz... That is a pretty heavy can on the end of a SBR. Adding one and a half pounds to to end of a 10.5 inch barrel.. Just seems to be an awful lot... The 223P-1 weighs 15 OZ....
In contrast, the 30PSS is 5 inches long, weighs 10 OZ... To me, that is IDEAL for a SBR when the whole point of a SBR is to be quick and agile in close quarters.
I recently placed an order with my LGS for 3 of your cans, 338BA, a 30PSS for my SBR Blackout (dedicated to subsonics) and the 223P-1.. (which I am actually contemplating changing to a 223A) So I am a big fan of your product, I just think the 223A is way too heavy for a SBR and would like others to comment on this.
PS, I sure hope you guys can deliver that 6 can order to that gun shop in Florida before you get inundated with orders from the shot show. Patience has never been one of my virtues
It is bad enough waiting for the form 4, I sure do not want to wait another 3 months to have you guys fill my order. I am responsible for getting my LGS to become one of your dealers, they never heard of you and I basically harassed them to wits end and last I heard they were GTG... so maybe you could show a bit of love ;-)It is a matter of them not rating the titanium can for the blast of an SBR. The heavier suppressor is needed. I've found that weight is less noticeable on an SBR by the way. I guess it's where the suppressor weight is right at your front hand and not so far out as on a longer barrel.
Titanium is not strong under the intense heat and pressure of a SBR. Silencerco warranties the saker down to 7" full auto
So you are saying there is significantly more muzzle pressure and higher heat at 10" of barrel than at 16" and this is the reason you need a can rated for full auto? I have to cry BS if this is the reason to opt for a can rated for full auto for a SBR. Ammo pressures also vary based on the speed the powder burns, weight of the bullet... So the pressure conversation is highly subjective. If any 5.56 rated can can't handle the little extra pressure from a SBR I would not buy it.
I agree you have a lot more heat and pressure issues firing full auto, but firing a semi SBR? Sure heat could be an issue if you have a handful of 60 round surefire's and you feed them as fast as you can pull the trigger, but just normal shooting? I really don't think you need some can rated for extreme heat if you are simply doing some target or course work...
I have a Gemtech quicksand that weighs 17.5 OZ (20 with the mount) and when I put it on a SBR, for me, it is very awkward and front-heavy.
Again, I think the whole point of a SBR is to be able to be quick and agile in close quarters. Why on earth would you want to put some big ass heavy can on the end of it? It's no longer a SBR if you add another 7 inches to it.
In my opinion I think if the OP really wants to have a good SBR he should get a 300 blackout upper for that POF, run subs in it, and get that little 30PSS from thunderbeast. I don't much see the point of a short barrel 223 when you can have a 30 cal that is whisper quiet and shoots 220 grain bricks as fast as you can pull the trigger.
Subsonic 300 Blackout with a PSS isn't exactly whisper quiet. It is an awesome suppressor for subs and compact but definitely gives up some suppression. I can see the desire for a 300 Blackout and subs to be really quiet but not sure what gave you the idea that it is better or more powerful than a 556 RHunter. Watch a video of an SBR at night or just YouTube SBR fireball and you'll get an idea of what it sends into a suppressor.
The 223P-1 is a "sporting" application can. When you get into SBR's, the muzzle pressure rises dramatically and in addition there is a lot more powder still burning inside the can. IE, the uncorking pressure is a lot higher, the thermal input is a lot higher, and there's more unburned powder. That's why we'd recommend the 223A for SBR use. The shortest we'd recommend for the 223P-1 with 5.56 would be about 14-14.5". That said, I have shot my demo 223P-1 extensively on a Noveske 12" SBR upper (5.56) without any issues. We know that the 223A will unlimited use on 7" machineguns so that's what we'd steer our customers to for SBR use because we know it will work great and last a very very long time.
The issue about muzzle pressure is not BS or subjective. It's physical reality. How short of a barrel should a lightweight suppressor be able to withstand? 12" 10" 8" 6" 4"? Eventually you'll get short enough that the uncorking pressure is basically the same as the peak pressure. That's going to an extreme to make the point but you should get my drift. If you want a can that will take twice the muzzle pressure of a regular rifle and has the same safety factors, it will have to be heavier. I am not saying that that's the case at 16" vs 10" or whatever because it does depend a lot of cartridge and load, but just using it as an example.
Now with regard to .300 Blackout, when you transition to a cartridge with a much smaller ratio of powder to bore area and in the case of .300 Blk actually have less powder, the effects change in that the muzzle pressure is dramatically reduced, as is the thermal input, as well as the proportion of unburned powder. That's why you can shoot an all-titanium 30PS on an 8" .300 Blackout without issue.
I hope this sheds some light on our logic. Also, I apologize for the delay chiming in again on this thread, and also for future delays this week. About half the TBAC crew including myself are in Vegas for SHOT Show right now.
thanks
Zak
The issue about muzzle pressure is not BS or subjective. It's physical reality. How short of a barrel should a lightweight suppressor be able to withstand? 12" 10" 8" 6" 4"? Eventually you'll get short enough that the uncorking pressure is basically the same as the peak pressure. That's going to an extreme to make the point but you should get my drift. If you want a can that will take twice the muzzle pressure of a regular rifle and has the same safety factors, it will have to be heavier. I am not saying that that's the case at 16" vs 10" or whatever because it does depend a lot of cartridge and load, but just using it as an example.
Now with regard to .300 Blackout, when you transition to a cartridge with a much smaller ratio of powder to bore area and in the case of .300 Blk actually have less powder, the effects change in that the muzzle pressure is dramatically reduced, as is the thermal input, as well as the proportion of unburned powder. That's why you can shoot an all-titanium 30PS on an 8" .300 Blackout without issue.
I hope this sheds some light on our logic. Also, I apologize for the delay chiming in again on this thread, and also for future delays this week. About half the TBAC crew including myself are in Vegas for SHOT Show right now.
thanks
Zak
I know exactly what they do... 5.56 was not designed to be shot out of a SBR just like 22WMR was not designed to be shot out of a pistol... All that powder being burned after the bullet leaves the barrel kills the performance. That is where the 300 Blackout shines IT WAS designed for SBR's, the speed in which the powder burns allows the powder to be consumed before the bullet leaves the barrel.
A 300 Blackout blows a 5.56 away in terminal performance in a SBR... Here is a good article for your reading:
SBR Caliber Showdown: 5.56/.223 vs. 300 BLK | The Truth About Guns
Good point.. But Titanium is a refractory metal that can take a lot of heat and it does not start to loose its strength until it hits about 800 degrees F. That' pretty fucking hot before you start to have problems. It also has a very high fatigue limit so it can take repeated abuse without failure. You said this:
And because of the high fatigue limit of Titanium and your design you probably never would have any issues (unless a weld fails or threads shear...) Have you guys ever tried to destroy a 223P-1 on a 5.56 SBR?
It gets a little subjective when there are so many variables that can effect the pressure, bullet weight, burn rate of the powder, powder charge, 223 vrs 5.56, length of the barrel as you mentioned. Some other situations would be a problem like you said, where you are close to peak pressure, others are not.....
There is no doubt your 223A is rock solid and would last a lifetime... I would not have ordered 3 of your cans if you made crap. But I do think the 223A is overkill for a SBR because of the nature of Titanium, the quality of your product, and the weight of it. I think you guys would do better to develop a shorter can with a larger diameter for a SBR without all that weight if you think the 223P-1 is not a good option.
Think about this Zac, your 223A weighs almost as much as the can your company developed for the 338 Lapua Magnum. Its about 3.5 inches shorter and the same diameter...
Here is Phil dater of gemtechs article on barrel pressure.
http://www.dtic.mil/ndia/2010armament/WednesdayCumberlandPhilipDater.pdf
http://www.dtic.mil/ndia/2010armament/WednesdayCumberlandPhilipDater.pdf
If you plan on doing any mag dumps, the 223A is what you want. I did a (2) mag dump with 60 round surefire mags. The cover melted to the can and I could not touch the can for over an hour. TBAC does not recommend you doing that with the 223P-1, so if you plan on any rapid fire go with the 223A.
You can use any of our current line-up of titanium .30 caliber suppressors on .300 BLACKOUT/Whisper/Fireball SBR's down to 8", with supersonic or subsonic ammunition. For full-power supersonic ammunition, watch the temperature if you are doing a lot of rapid fire (keep it under 700-800). That said, there is much less temperature risk using the .300 Bk/Wh/Fb compared to even .223 because it's less powder and the ratio of bore area to powder charge is so large. As usual, always make 100% sure your loads are fully stabilized before using the suppressor. Remember we can't control if your load & barrel throw a bullet that starts to tumble in the suppressor.
