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Advanced Marksmanship tip of finger vs. 2nd joint

H

Hykin_C

Private
Minuteman
Dec 3, 2009
29
0
33
Ontario, Canada
Hey guys, tried the search function, turned up empty. I was just wondering what the main advantages of one over the other would be? I have tried both and I seem to be more comfortable/more natural using the second joint of my finger. When shooting one over the other, both tend to result in the same groups. Thus is this just a matter of personal preference or is there actually a physical reason why one should use one method over the other? Thanks for any posts guys!

Hykin,C
 
Re: tip of finger vs. 2nd joint

It doesn't show up close but at distance it definitely make a difference

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Re: tip of finger vs. 2nd joint

This is a paragraph written by Low Light during a spin drift (argument), I mean discussion. Anyway, it goes along with the video above.

"Let's get off the fixture and move to the field with an actual person shooting. I have witnessed as much as 2 Mils difference between a series of shooters on numerous occasions when engaging the same target. This means more than 70 inches of difference downrange between a series of shooters using the same rifles and ammo on the same target at the same place. Where, on the far end the furthest right handed shooter will need more than 3.5 mils to hit a 1000 yard target, on the other end a left handed shooter needed only 1.5 mils to hit the same target on the same line. I have made a point to record this in class after class and it almost always lands around 2 mils between the two. A right handed shooter will tend to pull the rifle right, the left handed shooter will pull the rifle left completely blowing the science away from the reality on the ground. In a fixture under scientifically controlled conditions we have one value for SD, in field conditions with a different set of shooters we have another, and neither set of results will match. The majority of shooters are right handed, which is why many will see drift to the right as opposed to the left. But left happens. If you watch the video we did, using the pad of the finger versus the joint, you'll note at 100 yards we saw next to know difference shooting the same rifle and ammo. However at 300 yards it was the difference between a series of groups that averaged .5MOA versus a set that measured 1 MOA. Alternating your trigger by simply moving the finger from the pad to the joint completely changed the accuracy dynamic of the system. Imagine from a right handed shooter to a left, or one person with a good trigger versus one with a poor trigger."
 
Re: tip of finger vs. 2nd joint

Thanks for the reply's guys. I was looking for that video but couldn't find it for some reason! And ya the range wasn't far at all. 25M, indoor range, and shot with a Ruger SR-22.

Hykin,C
 
Re: tip of finger vs. 2nd joint

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Hykin_C</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Hey guys, tried the search function, turned up empty. I was just wondering what the main advantages of one over the other would be? I have tried both and I seem to be more comfortable/more natural using the second joint of my finger. When shooting one over the other, both tend to result in the same groups. Thus is this just a matter of personal preference or is there actually a physical reason why one should use one method over the other? Thanks for any posts guys!

Hykin,C</div></div>

The trigger finger's movement must complement the mechanics of the fire control mechanism for smooth trigger control. And, since SMOOTH is what's important, placement of the finger on the trigger needs be made where it's relaxed, that's to say, it's not about tips, or joints, but rather what's comfortable.
 
Re: tip of finger vs. 2nd joint

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sterling Shooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Hykin_C</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Hey guys, tried the search function, turned up empty. I was just wondering what the main advantages of one over the other would be? I have tried both and I seem to be more comfortable/more natural using the second joint of my finger. When shooting one over the other, both tend to result in the same groups. Thus is this just a matter of personal preference or is there actually a physical reason why one should use one method over the other? Thanks for any posts guys!

Hykin,C</div></div>


The trigger finger's movement must complement the mechanics of the fire control mechanism for smooth trigger control. And, since SMOOTH is what's important, placement of the finger on the trigger needs be made where it's relaxed, that's to say, it's not about tips, or joints, but rather what's comfortable. </div></div>


Absolutely its is about placement... your finger only moves a certain way and it is physically impossible to move straight back 100% using the joint. If you pull the trigger to one side relaxed or not the harmonics of the rifle are going to vibrate based on the trigger not be straight to the rear. Pulling to the side is pulling to the side and not conducive to accuracy.

Body mechanics don't your allow you do this, your finger will curl as seen in the video. Look at the video the lack of secondary movement when using the pad of the finger as opposed to the joint of the finger it is very easy to see.

You can relax your finger easily at any point a relaxed finger is a relaxed finger -- that doesn't require specific placement, but the mechanics of straight back cannot not random.
 
Re: tip of finger vs. 2nd joint

I learned to shoot with the pad years ago with competition pistols, so that part came naturally for me. I found that I had a lot better *feel* with what was happening in the trigger mechanism.

Now what I did not realize is, that if you do not pull *straight* back with the pad, you can induce torque on the rifle *as* the trigger is being pulled and then more when the trigger hits the end of overtravel. In other words, some amount of force is put into the rifle at a slight angle, which causes small side to side movement in the rifle just prior to and during the "in barrel" phase.

I had some weird unexplained horizontal (that could have easily been passed off as wind) that went away immediately when I put my hand in proper position to keep my finger pad at a 90 degree angle to the rifle (trigger finger bent at 90 degrees) and thus all of the movement is straight back.

John
 
Re: tip of finger vs. 2nd joint

The rifle doesn't give a shit if you are comfortable. It is about angles and force.
 
Re: tip of finger vs. 2nd joint

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rifles Only</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The rifle doesn't give a shit if you are comfortable. It is about angles and force.

</div></div>

Comfort is essential to good shooting, in every aspect of the position.
 
Re: tip of finger vs. 2nd joint

Bolt gun, I use the pad (distal phalanx) as in video above. AR platform, 2nd bone(intermediate phalanx).

Given there are no muscles in our fingers other than <span style="font-style: italic">arrectores pilorum</span> (which when contracted make hair 'stand on end'), and all other movement of the fingers comes from the palm & forearm, the distal should work best. Tried using the pad many times on service rife on account of how well it works on bolt gun/pistol, but I consistently shoot service rifle better using the 2nd bone.

frank/jacob/et al., curious to know if you guys use the pad for the AR platform as well as bolt.
 
Re: tip of finger vs. 2nd joint

ohhh alright I get what you are saying now about how the joint will pull the rifle to one side or the other. I dont know if you guys have ever heard of this, but I was thinking more of the fatty part of the finger (past the 2nd joint). And as you use this part of your finger, you simply start to sqeeze your hand/upper fingers as if you were going to make a fist. So sure enough the trigger will eventually break. This way was taught to me by a Mcpl(Canadian military) and he said that this was taught to him by a JTF2 member....I did try this when we were on the firing line that day, but did not see any great advantages (probably due to the fact that my elcan was all fucked up)! Although this way of doing it felt very natural and comfortable and did not seem to pull the rifle in either direction. Let me know what your views are of this. Although I know with the inherent nature of forums it is more than likely that if I ask 10 people, I will get 10 different answers haha and however so, the information I have gained through this site has been incredible. But anyway, lets hear those thoughts! Thanks.

Hykin,C
 
Re: tip of finger vs. 2nd joint

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sterling Shooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rifles Only</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The rifle doesn't give a shit if you are comfortable. It is about angles and force.

</div></div>

Comfort is essential to good shooting, in every aspect of the position.</div></div>

Comfort comes for practice and repetition... you can be comfortable doing it wrong, so that is not the defining factor. If a new shooter is going for comfort over form or proper technique they are nothing more than comfortably wrong.


Hykin, I may have heard of those guys from Dwyer Hill, I'll never say for sure, but based on my personally experience in regards to their trigger finger placement they are using the pad of the finger using the 90 degree method. With the Headhunter is it imperative you have perfect trigger control when pushing rounds to distances the 338LM will run.

I shoot my AR the same as my bolt with the pad of finger at a 90.
 
Re: tip of finger vs. 2nd joint

seems to me if you used the fleshy part of your finger past the second joint, you would need to have your wrist at some obscure, weird "un-natural" angle.
Coming from a professional archery background I understand the premise of bone on bone and using large muscles as a trigger component. But,squeezing your hand making a fist while it is wrapped around a pistol grip seems to me to be, well, unpredictable is the nicest way to put it...just my .02
 
Re: tip of finger vs. 2nd joint

I totally understand what you are saying lowlight, and agree. I guess im gonna be shooting the tried and true method for now haha. I just did some dry firing while looking at my finger as the trigger broke, and there does seem to be less movement when using the 90 degree tip of finger method. Thanks for all your help and speedy replies
smile.gif


Hykin,C
 
Re: tip of finger vs. 2nd joint

There are many notions here for what will get the job done. For any interested, the USAMU has a few words on the topic. Just Google USAMU and link to the Service Rifle Team page. From there, download the BRM course Power Point presentation. In the section covering the Principles of Marksmanship there is some advice on trigger control from those who do indeed know how to do it.
 
Re: tip of finger vs. 2nd joint

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">In the section covering the Principles of Marksmanship there is some advice on trigger control from those who do indeed know how to do it.</div></div>

LOL ya, download the principals Circa 1982, cause Sterling is right, I have no clue and we make this shit up everyday.
wink.gif
" the AMU are the only people in the know.

Besides wed hate to read that Relaxation is different from comfort... and like Jacob said the rifle doesn't care either way.
 
Re: tip of finger vs. 2nd joint

Okay I downloaded it and Have a question ?
amuppt.png


Where is comfort listed ?

What does "Straight back" on the trigger mean and how do you achieve it ?

Why does it say to use the pad of the finger and not, where comfortable"
 
Re: tip of finger vs. 2nd joint

Lowlight with all do respect this is not the time to be literate, sterling is trying to make a point
 
Re: tip of finger vs. 2nd joint

haha....its just as easy as those 5 steps ehh....I am probably just over thinking this
crazy.gif
....will focus on those 5 pricipals and that is what is improtant, not the hundreds of little variations on how to get the same task accomplished. And yes I am Canadian and put an "ehhh" in there just cause i can!
wink.gif


Hykin,C
 
Re: tip of finger vs. 2nd joint

Just poking a bit of fun, I hadn't ate yet and the blood sugar was low.

Point is, vague and generalized advice is fine for lowest common denominator work, but here people are looking for specifics.

Not for nothing, Sterling did contradict himself, he said it doesn't matter where the finger falls on the trigger only that comfort is important and then references the AMU BRM Powerpoint which says absolutely nothing about comfort and specifically says the pad of the finger... so if they are the only ones who know, how come he's incorrectly quoting them.

I have all the AMU manuals, bunch of the guides from way back as well I would like to think I do this more than as a hobby. But opinions may vary, of course.

There are distinct differences in what is taught for Army masses with an M16 and what is taught to the Special Operations community with precision rifles. Some may say it is splitting hairs at time, but there are distinct differences in method and technique.

Either way, if everyone is looking to get to the same point that is great, but vague references repeated are not always the answer to every marksmanship question. People what details -- what does straight back mean, where do you place the finger, that is all I am saying.
 
Re: tip of finger vs. 2nd joint

Another take on it, for reference. Yeah, AMU stuff, but it's more recent than '82, is detailed, and several of the points are applicable to both the AR & bolt precision disciplines.

Also thought it might be helpful to OP running an AR platform. It was to me.
 
Re: tip of finger vs. 2nd joint

I learned the RO "Trigger School" technique. It was awkward as hell... at first. After a couple of thousand reps, it is not uncomfortable. It just is.

There are other ways to learn to pull a trigger. One way is to sit in the dark and dry fire a weapon a few thousand times and learn precisely how much tension to put in each joint just to pull the trigger straight back. That is great... for that weapon. Get a weapon with different anchor points and lengths of pull and all of the practice goes straight down the toilet.

With the RO method, you are adjusting your position to the weapon and you have a very simple way to check if you are doing it correctly... all right angles.

Here is a little proof... get a wine glass and try "pulling" the stem toward you like it is a trigger. If your second joint is at a right angle and the pad of your finger is perpendicular to where you want to "pull" the stem, the stem will come straight back towards you every time. It is difficult not to pull it straight back. Now try it with the finger in a more "natural" position. You can pull the stem straight towards you some of the time, but it is easy to screw it up. You could certainly learn to pull it straight back consistently through repetition using your joint or with your finger in another position (and many great marksman do). Or, you can do what gives you the result you want immediately with zero practice... now which is really more "natural?" The one that requires lots and lots of practice or the one that is hard to screw up?

"Comfort" just needs to be redefined. I have a 2 year old who is "comfortable" shitting his underwear at the moment. Another year will likely redefine comfort for him... and 5 years will make the old way seem unthinkable.
 
Re: tip of finger vs. 2nd joint

lmao..very good quote at the end there Carter! And by the way...I tried looking for that BRM powerpoint but couldn't find it!!ugh(link)
grin.gif
haha...and in the way of trying to keep everything in a 90 degree position makes alot of sence. Thanks again boys.

Hykin,C
 
Re: tip of finger vs. 2nd joint

I use the Sierra pistol grip on my AR's and find the the extra "meat" makes it easier, and dare I say comfortable, for proper index placement.

At the Cup, I used gloves(weight lifting) that pushed my hand further out on the grip.
Again, the index/hand was more "comfortable."
 
Re: tip of finger vs. 2nd joint

It appears that Lowlight downloaded something other than the modern doctrine on the matter. I went to the web site and discovered the download is no longer there. Nevertheless, the key word on trigger control is SMOOTH. The idea is to pull the trigger without disturbing aim by utilizing smooth trigger control. The proper placement of the finger on the trigger to get smooth has a lot to do with what body position will yield a consistent hand/grip relationship. A grip which is comfortable is an indicator of a proper grip. Since hands, as well as grips come in many shapes and sizes, what's right may be placement as unique as the shooter. BTW, comfort is paramount to good shooting. It's evidence of a good position, where comfort equals relaxed and relaxed means less movement.
 
Re: tip of finger vs. 2nd joint

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: tullius</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Another take on it, for reference. Yeah, AMU stuff, but it's more recent than '82, is detailed, and several of the points are applicable to both the AR & bolt precision disciplines.

Also thought it might be helpful to OP running an AR platform. It was to me.</div></div>

Thank you for bringing attention this link. It's more descriptive than the link which I suggested going to,which appears to have been removed. Reading the CMP article, I think the AMU summed it best," place the finger where it naturally falls on the trigger".
 
Re: tip of finger vs. 2nd joint

The first two pics show an interesting trigger finger angle compared to the third
laugh.gif


1.jpg


2.jpg


Now this is 90 degrees...

3.jpg


I have no idea what to make of these last two. What do you call that technique, is it widely used ?

5.jpg


7.jpg
 
Re: tip of finger vs. 2nd joint

Those first two pictures frightened my children. They could not sleep last night.

They asked "Daddy, it that the troll from under the bridge?"

I had to tell them, "No, thats the gnome from the fairy tales".

Then the wife said, "Looks like he needs to go to see Jenny Craig."

Family fun on the internet...

No offense intended Frank...
 
Re: tip of finger vs. 2nd joint

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: TJ.</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The first two pics show an interesting trigger finger angle compared to the third
laugh.gif


1.jpg


2.jpg


Now this is 90 degrees...

3.jpg


I have no idea what to make of these last two. What do you call that technique, is it widely used ?

5.jpg


7.jpg
</div></div>

Most AR classes are shot inside 100 yards and are dynamic based classes. The Pat Rodgers Class you took the pictures from were shot inside 50 yards only and were mainly speed based drills. The images you have copied were part of the drills were you go fro Standing, Kneeling to Prone with all shots inbetween shot in less than 20 seconds with magazine changes.

Because my hand is small, I am using a grip too big for me personally and that fact I am shooting very fast it appears to be way off, which it is slightly but I am still using the pad of my finger and not digging my hand to a knuckle. Because I have very short fingers, the 90 is less pronounced, but look a my video above and you'll see it is still very similar.

As I stated in the quoted link, accuracy will not be effected up close, especially inside 50 yards where this will be shot. It's why I take outside classes because it pushes you beyond your own thinking and methods. In fact if you look I am using the Docter Sight and not even the Elcan itself because I am shooting fast.

Sterling,

That was an archive version it was marked as the AMU BRM however it could be fake.

Also I wouldn't take the advice of the guy in the article. His method might work for him, digging his hand in to the second knuckle, but as stated above it is physically impossible to pull anything back straight using the knuckle that far dug in. Big hand or otherwise -- the body is not made to work that way. He is probably what we call a good - bad shooter. There are some people who can get away with stuff simply because they practice it that way, but it doesn't mean it will translate to anyone else.

Practice and repetition along with consistency make a good shooter, comfort is a result of those... comfort cannot come first, some people with just naturally gravitate to doing it incorrectly out of comfort. People who win in shooting are not people fall back on generalized references, but people who practice to the degree their competition does not and fine tunes their positions for the best possible results. I doubt anyone who excels is shooting is doing so the same way they started out.

The last picture is very common with a 7.62 gasser. Guys also do this with an AICS they are simply floating the thumb to maintain the 90 degree angle.

it's about building the position from the trigger back and not the grip forward. The primary purpose of the firing hand is to manipulate the trigger with a secondary of controlling the rifle. So he is building his positions from the trigger back and not the grip forward.

Common yes, I have hundreds of pictures of guys doing it that way. It's about precision.
 
Re: tip of finger vs. 2nd joint

Thx. I'm convinced on the merits of pad over joint. It has helped me with accuracy and has probably encouraged me to slowdown a little which is no bad thing as I have to think that much more about getting it right. I am having much less yaw impact and I'm feeling the trigger pull more.

Re the last two pics...would an experienced shooter see no increase in "hop" without his hand on the grip ie is loading the bi-pod supposed to come exclusively from the shoulder ?
 
Finger placement

The topic has been hashed out hundreds of times at Camp Perry, the Olympics, Small Arms Firing Schools, and other AMU shooting schools.

"How do you execute the perfect shot?" "How do you win the Olympics?"

"Get a proper sight picture, align the sights with the target, and execute the shot without changing or disturbing the sight picture."

It matters not if you're in perfect slung-up and bipod-supported prone or if you're shooting weak-side hanging off a Little Bird secured by a tether, doing 85 in a tight turn in the dark.

My little panda stubs fit triggers differently than Shaq's. Saying he has to have a 90-degree first pad trigger shoe contact on an M4/M16 doesn't mean his trigger and hand/wrist geometry will be the same as mine.

Trigger geometry with the Geissele AR/M4/16 trigger is different than the issue OEM trigger (a simple 1/8th of an inch).

Purpose-built long range and Olympic rimfire triggers will have adjustable trigger shoes to compensate for trigger draw and angle. We're stuck with standard triggers on most 700s and similar rifles because that's what they ship with. They are a cost-effective compromise to fit the 95th percentile of shooters -- not because they fit.

To say there's only one single method is wrong.

If it's stupid but it works it's not stupid.
 
Re: Finger placement

As sinister pointed out most of this is based on averages. Typical equipment average size people with average range of motion. Just like any pro athlete their form doesn't always follow the basics we teach our kids when they are learning but it does make for a good starting point.
Sinister also brought up differences in equipment. Are there any majoe pros or cons to triggers that are wider or narrower or round beyound personal preference. My thought would be with the idea of pulling straight back a verry narrow trigger would be the most precise but also the most sensitive to slight changes in movement.
 
Re: Finger placement

Wow all this over "Just pull the trigger straight as possible to the rear"

What ever works and is repeatable is the goal. Everyone is built differently.

Sinister on another note I just picked up a Timney "Tactical" model trigger for my F TR Rifle. It is not a Tactical Rifle trigger but should work great on FTR Rifles. It is fully adjustable like an Anshutz and real nice for comp work. I wish they had a model of this trigger with safety. You know anything about this trigger I dont want to find out the hard way?
 
Re: tip of finger vs. 2nd joint

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: AQC440</div><div class="ubbcode-body">This is a paragraph written by Low Light during a spin drift (argument), I mean discussion. Anyway, it goes along with the video above.

"Let's get off the fixture and move to the field with an actual person shooting. I have witnessed as much as 2 Mils difference between a series of shooters on numerous occasions when engaging the same target. This means more than 70 inches of difference downrange between a series of shooters using the same rifles and ammo on the same target at the same place. Where, on the far end the furthest right handed shooter will need more than 3.5 mils to hit a 1000 yard target, on the other end a left handed shooter needed only 1.5 mils to hit the same target on the same line. I have made a point to record this in class after class and it almost always lands around 2 mils between the two. A right handed shooter will tend to pull the rifle right, the left handed shooter will pull the rifle left completely blowing the science away from the reality on the ground. In a fixture under scientifically controlled conditions we have one value for SD, in field conditions with a different set of shooters we have another, and neither set of results will match. The majority of shooters are right handed, which is why many will see drift to the right as opposed to the left. But left happens. If you watch the video we did, using the pad of the finger versus the joint, you'll note at 100 yards we saw next to know difference shooting the same rifle and ammo. However at 300 yards it was the difference between a series of groups that averaged .5MOA versus a set that measured 1 MOA. Alternating your trigger by simply moving the finger from the pad to the joint completely changed the accuracy dynamic of the system. Imagine from a right handed shooter to a left, or one person with a good trigger versus one with a poor trigger." </div></div>

I'm right handed and have noticed that with toooo much finger I pull right. If I use just the tip of my finger I'll push left. When I have the DT's from staying up tooo late and drinking Old Crow (went down in price to $9.70 at the class VI for a 5th) then it looks like a shotgun blast.
An old friend told the best way to counteract this issue is "timing, you need to time your shot between the shakes".
 
Re: tip of finger vs. 2nd joint

Mike, I've not used the Timney but many years ago I had a Canjar that was very nice.

40s and 700s are very versatile in that they can be fitted with many different triggers. If you need one that can fit a big hand/long fingers you can fit an Anschutz or CG trigger like the AMU does on long range and running target 700s. You can change length, drop, angle/cant, and trigger shoes to match your ergos and shooting style.

cgtrig800b.jpg
 
Re: tip of finger vs. 2nd joint

While I understand that certain people can get away with things and someone will always adapt and make what they are doing work . I think in this case the idea if its stupid but works so it isn't stupid doesn't hold up.

If that is the case why have fundamentals at all. The shooter should be able to lay simply lay down, however they feel, get comfortable right off the bat, and then like you said sights on the target, trigger back anyway you want, voila we'll all President's 100s because we met the criteria.

Technique is develop because naturally some things work better than others, and these things help the shooter move to the next level.

It's why you advocate dry fire, to help the shooter relax, practice which brings comfort with the problems associated to live fire. It instills a training program that helps the shooter.

As well, out side of the competition shooting you do, service rifle, F Class, the time constraints change - comfort is so far down the line because of movement, alternate positions, time, the shooter has to fall back on technique because he can't just fall in, get comfortable during his prep time and then make his sighter shots. If that doesn't work he can try it again, sighers again, not so much in the disciplines found on here.

Sure, hundreds of people can adapt anything to work, or they buy something to adapt the weapon to work, great, but that only makes good shooters and the world is full of good shooters. The idea is to build a foundation based on more than, where ever you hand falls, then pull the trigger smoothly.

At least that is the training philosophy I think we follow, understanding it would make my job much easier to let them do what they wanted. If they show up shooting a 1/2 minute I get to ignore them because they made it work.
 
Re: tip of finger vs. 2nd joint

No argument, Frank.

The best shooters are those who shoot a lot and are intimately familiar with their equipment and personal capabilities and limitations.

The difference comes at application time. The guy who claims his techniques are the best can woof all he wants. If he has no objective measurement standards (animals in the freezer/fridge, badges and baubles, Silver Stars or Bronze with V/device) who can challenge? It becomes subjective argument.

There are tons of guys who claim competency with a weapon who have never applied it on the competition range, hunting field, on the beat, or in combat. There are hundreds who compete every weekend who can't read a simple military map, move their equipment over terrain, nor have ever shot a live target.

I don't claim to have the answer, or that the AMU or Marines do, either. The stock or lightly modified 700 seems to be the standard for initial training. The majority have basic truing and accurizing modification. My recommendations are towards the majority where some techniques seem to help improve performance. They do not apply universally.

Nothing worth having or doing well comes easy. When time is critical and you're being shot at the average human being will default to habitual, learned training. If you're ambushing somebody or something then you control the engagment and timing (at least the opening shot).

Letting folks do what they want is fine. Training and mentoring is aimed at improvement.

Helping professionals be more lethal is what the business (not hobby) is about.
 
Re: tip of finger vs. 2nd joint

My comment to Frank and Dave's dialogue here is that the TECHNIQUE that one may use to APPLY the FUNDAMENTALS may be different, BUT the technique must properly execute the fundamentals.

Dave says of techniques that all do not apply universally. Frank says "Technique is develop because naturally some things work better than others, and these things help the shooter move to the next level".

IF the technique used (second joint) does not properly EXECUTE the fundamentals (trigger straight back), the technique is flawed and should be discarded.

The truth or proof of it is the continued consistency of the bullet strike on intended point of aim.
 
Re: tip of finger vs. 2nd joint

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: TJ.</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Re the last two pics...would an experienced shooter see no increase in "hop" without his hand on the grip ie is loading the bi-pod supposed to come exclusively from the shoulder ? </div></div>The thumb is inconsequential in preventing bipod hop. The rifle will only recoil back, any hop is a product of a shooter related input- usually being angled behind the rifle as opposed to straight back. That being said, the bipod should be loaded by either moving the body forward against the rifle or wedging the rifle down, the purpose of the non trigger fingers on the firing hand are to hold the rifle back firmly into the shoulder pocket, which the thumb does nothing to help accomplish. Therefore the grip you see should have no effect on the bipod hop, as long as everything else was being accomplished properly.

As far as I have understood the online training so far anyway!
 
Re: tip of finger vs. 2nd joint

Ok not to hijack or derail the bickering....but can anyone shed some light on the duration of the trigger pull? what i mean is, is it a long slow pull over a period of a few seconds while trying to keep sight alignment and stock weld. Or is it more of a slow yet delibrate pull that takes more like 1 second or less that is executed just after everything is aligned and feels good. In the past ive used the first method but it seems like the longer pull just adds time to screw things up. lol
 
Re: tip of finger vs. 2nd joint

If you have the time for deliberate, it can be deliberate and smooth. If you need fast, it can be fast and smooth. In either scenario, smooth makes it possible to pull the trigger without disturbing aim.
 
Re: tip of finger vs. 2nd joint

</soapboxon>
Lowlight made a snazy video, I dont have that, but had the pleasure of instructing a few combat shooting courses for the carbines. I knew this fact to be true from when I was a hunter, and always had an issue with the USMC Marksmanship Manual to allow the shooter to place their finger naturally on the trigger... THERE IS NOTHING THAT IS MEANT TO BE COMFORTABLE WHILE SHOOTING, it is a consistent process that we are after, with consistency comes a zero, which given environment factors we can adjust for, and then we can shoot an accurate group the issue with the second joint, I believe is 2 fold, first the joint has "fat on two sides of the joint, that will roll uncontrolled" second and more importantly you do not truly pull your finger straight to the rear into your shoulder.

Using the pad, I describe it as when you stick your trigger finger into your nose for 10 seconds, the ring on your finger is your pad. Bending at the second joint (remember this is on a carbine/pistol grip) and keeping the first joint straight you can achieve as close to rearward pull as the hand can manipulate. I have been fortunate that some thought I was a loon, and tried to finger the puss vice play with the clit and I would prove it to those students time and time again. At the end I had over 3.5 mil rounds instructed, and nearly every student left playing with the clit (my reminder to use the pad, to get the "girl" off)

So to go back to the question, practice with the pad, it is skill, skill takes practice, it wont come overnight, once you have it down it will give you more consistent results.

</endsoapbox>
 
Re: tip of finger vs. 2nd joint

To Poster: brokefromguns

Trigger control is the <span style="font-weight: bold">skillfull</span> manipulation of the trigger to the rear while not disrupting sight alignment or sight picture.

With the definition above, time is not an issue, you have Interrupted and Non-Interrupted Trigger Control, the difference is if you hold a partial press of the trigger to realign your s/a and s/p, which is interrupted. Non-Interrupted is from start to finish is one press of the trigger. Now for time, that is dependent on the shooters skill, position, ability to observe sa/sp, and ability to have proper trigger control. Breathing goes in there as well, but then again that is a different fund. In the end you need to be able to do both interrupted and non to be able to master both will take practice. As for speed, with good proper practice you will begin to see speed increase as your brain has the skill, your muscles implement that skill, and your target records that skill.
 
Re: tip of finger vs. 2nd joint

Your first post is not completely true, while your second post it is absolute fact. Muscular relaxation [comfort] is an element of a steady position. Along with NPA and artificial/bone support, they assure the principles of marksmanship may be discharged properly. The trigger finger should be placed where it falls naturally on the trigger. For example, if the shooter places the tip of the finger on the trigger, perhaps, because he was told to do it that way, the contortion may cause the aim to be disturbed since the finger's motion cannot complement the trigger's mechnical design.
 
Re: tip of finger vs. 2nd joint

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rifles Only</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The rifle doesn't give a shit if you are comfortable. It is about angles and force.

</div></div>
luv it straight to the point as usual
 
Re: tip of finger vs. 2nd joint

Sterling,

Here is the thing, you are speaking to the lowest common denominator, where it's an assembly line process.

It's a shortcut to say put your finger where it naturally falls because you never have to correct a person, and you never have to revisit it. You don't acknowledge that you can push it left or hook it right, because if I say that is where my finger naturally falls I am right, you can't question it. So you don't have too.

For example, I have extremely small hands, if I let my finger fall naturally on the trigger, it will automatically push left because I can't get full contact. There is no way to say, naturally dropping the finger on the trigger will allow you come straight back on the trigger. Maybe 10% can, so what you're doing is simply isolating those who can naturally shoot better simply because their hand falls in a better position than the overly tall or overly small. As well, firing a gun is not a natural act, so how can we naturally gravitate to something we weren't designed to do ?

Everyday in the world someone picks up a gun for the first time, and does what comes natural to them, without the aid of influence and believe me when I say, what they are doing doesn't work. Sure they can hit, I can teach a monkey to hit a target, but are they really doing more than pressing the trigger, in some fashion ?

By the way, how are you with a handgun ? Because pressures right or left on a trigger with a handgun are magnified big time.

Stating that trigger control is the most important fundamental then giving the person license to do whatever they want seems like a shortcut to me. If I was paying for a class, I would want trigger control explained in fine detail. Not just told, to hold the rifle, let the finger fall and come back on it smoothly, leaves a lot of room for interpretation, which is funny because we see it everyday. Stringing in the horizontal plane on target analysis -- probably trigger control.
wink.gif
 
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