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Advanced Marksmanship tip of finger vs. 2nd joint

Re: tip of finger vs. 2nd joint

Please,

We can get straight with anything -- from an A2 to a Barrett M107... if I had an A2 here I would post it, but I don't have one here. <span style="font-style: italic">(honestly none of our clients use them)</span> We do it with the Mk11s, and M110s, those are fixed... but then again, we are not shooting slung prone with those.

Try sliding the scale further why don't we.
wink.gif
 
Re: tip of finger vs. 2nd joint

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Please,

We can get straight with anything -- from an A2 to a Barrett M107... if I had an A2 here I would post it, but I don't have one here. <span style="font-style: italic">(honestly none of our clients use them)</span> We do it with the Mk11s, and M110s, those are fixed... but then again, we are not shooting slung prone with those.

Try sliding the scale further why don't we.
wink.gif
</div></div>

Well, since you said you could get straight with anything, then get straight with an A2. I'd like to see it. I don't think with the non-firing hand on the handguard your position will be muscularly relaxed.
 
Re: tip of finger vs. 2nd joint

Okay, I will see if I can find the A2 stock, there is supposed to be one here, if I can find it, we'll do it for you. Worst case, give me the length of pull and I will adjust the SOPMOD to match it.

If you like I can line everything up we have, from an M4 to an M107 and we can make a demo video for you... how does that sound.
wink.gif
 
Re: tip of finger vs. 2nd joint

As a PS, with an FYI... I moved the Sopmod to 13.5" which is the first notch in from fully extended. At 5'2" I can get straight with it, the magazine is directly alongside my support forearm, not perfect, but definitely doable. I am sure the more average sized among us could do it without an issue. I will get Jacob to demo it <span style="font-style: italic">(I don't see the A2 that was supposed to be here, which makes the call out convenient since I initially said we didn't have one.)</span> he is 6' so I don't see it being an issue at all though.

Perhaps while I am doing this, you can do a video of you shooting a 308 boltgun with a bipod demonstrating the rifle staying on target with your method ? I mean, between the online training lessons and the YouTube videos I think I have hung it out there pretty far, least you can do is give us a demo using the same kit, <span style="font-style: italic">read:</span> not a service rifle slung, but rather a precision rifle rested on a bipod.

Just a thought.
wink.gif
 
Re: tip of finger vs. 2nd joint

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sterling Shooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Please,

We can get straight with anything -- from an A2 to a Barrett M107... if I had an A2 here I would post it, but I don't have one here. <span style="font-style: italic">(honestly none of our clients use them)</span> We do it with the Mk11s, and M110s, those are fixed... but then again, we are not shooting slung prone with those.

Try sliding the scale further why don't we.
wink.gif
</div></div>

Well, since you said you could get straight with anything, then get straight with an A2. I'd like to see it. I don't think with the non-firing hand on the handguard your position will be muscularly relaxed.</div></div> For the two years I worked as a Marksmanship Instructor at Parris Island, using M16A2s, we could almost always get the shooters straight behind the rifle, forward elbow under the rifle (or at least right nest to the magazine), whenever firing in the prone position. This was with hasty sling or loop sling.

The only time we would have to have the shooter start to angle was when their necks were so short that it did not allow them to obtain proper eye relief, their chest was too large and was interfering with normal breathing, or their non-firing arm was so short that they could not support the rifle. These shooters were usually under 5'2" and were the female shooters (especially with the chest issue, lol).

Both our Range Officer (CWO2) and Line SNCOIC were Distinguished, having spent at least 3/4 of their careers on the teams. They were very strict with us when enforcing the marksmanship fundamentals, and getting the body straight behind the rifle is exactly what they enforced. Cocked leg or angled body were always a last resort, and then we would focus on the other positions and their trigger control to make up for the deficiency as their prone position scores always suffered.

The basic marksmanship fundamentals are not always one size/technique fits all, but they definitely fits most. Different body sizes, joint problems, large chest/gut, etc. are the most common reasons for these changes, but for almost all shooters the basics are the best. The basic we always focused on when it came to the prone was behind the rifle because it worked. I'm still teaching the same with great success to shooters from several different countries.

I've never shot at Camp Perry, nor am I a Distinguished Shooter, but I have trained hundreds and hundreds of shooters this way to great success and I'm a pretty fair shot myself. I've seen nothing but success when getting directly behind the rifle in the prone, whether that was with the M16A2 or the M40A1/3.

Opinions on this subject may differ, but I will always teach someone to get directly behind the rifle in the prone position. If otherwise works for you, then great. Good on you. I've just seen otherwise work better for the shooters I've taught.

And by the way, we ONLY taught to use the first pad of the finger. That rule was absolute, no deviation allowed.
 
Re: tip of finger vs. 2nd joint

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Redmanss</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sterling Shooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Please,

We can get straight with anything -- from an A2 to a Barrett M107... if I had an A2 here I would post it, but I don't have one here. <span style="font-style: italic">(honestly none of our clients use them)</span> We do it with the Mk11s, and M110s, those are fixed... but then again, we are not shooting slung prone with those.

Try sliding the scale further why don't we.
wink.gif
</div></div>

Well, since you said you could get straight with anything, then get straight with an A2. I'd like to see it. I don't think with the non-firing hand on the handguard your position will be muscularly relaxed.</div></div> For the two years I worked as a Marksmanship Instructor at Parris Island, using M16A2s, we could almost always get the shooters straight behind the rifle, forward elbow under the rifle (or at least right nest to the magazine), whenever firing in the prone position. This was with hasty sling or loop sling.

The only time we would have to have the shooter start to angle was when their necks were so short that it did not allow them to obtain proper eye relief, their chest was too large and was interfering with normal breathing, or their non-firing arm was so short that they could not support the rifle. These shooters were usually under 5'2" and were the female shooters (especially with the chest issue, lol).

Both our Range Officer (CWO2) and Line SNCOIC were Distinguished, having spent at least 3/4 of their careers on the teams. They were very strict with us when enforcing the marksmanship fundamentals, and getting the body straight behind the rifle is exactly what they enforced. Cocked leg or angled body were always a last resort, and then we would focus on the other positions and their trigger control to make up for the deficiency as their prone position scores always suffered.

The basic marksmanship fundamentals are not always one size/technique fits all, but they definitely fits most. Different body sizes, joint problems, large chest/gut, etc. are the most common reasons for these changes, but for almost all shooters the basics are the best. The basic we always focused on when it came to the prone was behind the rifle because it worked. I'm still teaching the same with great success to shooters from several different countries.

I've never shot at Camp Perry, nor am I a Distinguished Shooter, but I have trained hundreds and hundreds of shooters this way to great success and I'm a pretty fair shot myself. I've seen nothing but success when getting directly behind the rifle in the prone, whether that was with the M16A2 or the M40A1/3.

Opinions on this subject may differ, but I will always teach someone to get directly behind the rifle in the prone position. If otherwise works for you, then great. Good on you. I've just seen otherwise work better for the shooters I've taught.

And by the way, we ONLY taught to use the first pad of the finger. That rule was absolute, no deviation allowed.</div></div>

<span style="font-weight: bold">BLASPHEMY !!! </span>

No wonder they call you <span style="font-weight: bold">DEVIL</span> dogs...
 
Re: tip of finger vs. 2nd joint

From the basis of simple mechanics that applies to all motion, and all bodies despite what batters and apparently shooters may want debate: There is a single best way to perform any motion when the goal is power generation and there is also a way to create the most consistent motion, no matter what it is, and that is to minimize the number of moving parts, like on a gun(duh). Changing the number of pivot points in your finger naturally, and completely irrefutably, makes the timing of pulleys, your muscles, simpler. Your brain does less work. In the body-performance world, it's called economy of motion.

You can be a muscular genius and be consistent, or you can be mediocre and be consistent. In Frank's video it is clear he is able to overcome significant personal handicaps by simply making himself a simpler, less complex system. He shoots better because the motion is simple and easy to replicate in a quantifiable way, not some mumbojumbo "feels good to me, I'm so relaxed" reason.

What are the chances that your finger control really is the shizzle, and you just happened to get into shooting, and just happened to have the required funding to practice enough to become great, and you also have breathing and heart rate skills? Damn near zero. Chances are very slim just that you're a 4sigma finger talent whose main interest is completely boring and barely moves. It's kinda like being a dancer who takes up work as a mannequin or posing for a sculptor.

But hey, maybe you are a muscle genius. Nature still tells you to use the pad. From before the time you were born, you have trained to put your fingertip places on demand, not joints. Try this test: Stick out your hand like you're gonna shoot and extend your finger. With your other hand, take a paperclip or just another fingertip, and place it somewhere within reach of the finger you extended, kind of like where your trigger would be. Now, trace that fingertip to the objective in a straight line. Now repeat with the added hand rotation and/or finger extension to orient the first joint to the same starting position and try to bring the joint straight to the objective instead. Use a nice exaggerated 1"-2" travel. You might have fun seeing how much smarter your index finger is than the others too. You made those connections long ago and even though you may develop your pinky, you will never overcome the biological window your index finger had, and you can't induce neurological childhood.

If you use the joint, your motion is automatically diagonal due to the inability to achieve symmetry of "grip" on the trigger re: first and second joints. There's just nothing to argue about that. Everyone has better chance achieving a straight pull with a straight pull, genius be damned.
 
Re: tip of finger vs. 2nd joint

I am aware that all people are a bit differant, but as a whole the prone position is as:

The AMU, CPM, NG-MTU teach:

"COCK YOUR FIRING SIDE LEG AND CHECK YOUR NATURAL POINT OF AIM"

Now we can argue the angled verse straight position until we are blue in the face or we can accomplish a simple test.

Have you're shooter assume a good prone position (try it straight and at a light angle with the firing side leg cocked). In the position have the shooter get a good point of aim. Then kneel on the right side of the shooter where you have access to the operating rod. Have someone else on the other side of the shooter.

When you're all set up, have you assistant coach, (the guy on the left) hold a clip board or simular object infront of the shooter's eyes, then the coack (on the right side) works the action so the shooter can dry fire. After the hammer falls he should recover back to his natural point of aim, when the clip board is removed he should see that he has a NPA, where he is perfectly lined up to fire a second shot (dry fire). If not adjust his position until he does.

Then block his sight again and dry fire a string after 5-8 rounds while you the coach rapidly works the operating rod.

After that string, again allow the shooter to look over his sights to see if he is still lined up perfectly with the target.

Try this with the angled-cocked leg and try it straight.

If you do this you will see the cocked leg, angled position if more effect. That is if you are honest about your coaching.

In rapid fire it is extremely important. Its not just for gas guns either, but for bolt guns.

In proper rapid fire with the bolt gun the stock should NOT LEAVE THE SHOULDER. The shooting hand works the bolt without disturbing the stock in the shoulder position.

The cocked leg, angled position give you more stability working the bolt in rapid fire, and the operation of the gas gun in rapid fire.

Another simple test, but this time in slow fire is go to a match. Walk along the firing line and observe the shooters. You will see both the angled and straight position. Watch as they shoot their strings of slowfire, You'll see all kinds of movement while the targets are in the pist and they prepare for the next shot. You will see a lot less movement from those shooters using the angled postitions.

Now we can argue until we get mad and start slaming others or we can do the test and observations and make an honest assestment.

Don't go by what drill structors try to instill in you in basic. They are drill sgts not coaches. Contact coaches from the AMU, CMP. In basic the drill instructors tell you to use the straight position "because you provide a smaller target" not because its a better shooting platform.

This (angled-cocled leg) was instilled in me when I first started shooting HP< when I was in Sniper School, When I attended the NGMTU Coaches Clinic. I taught in the sniper schools I ran, and coaching from the AK NG rifle team.
It was stressed in the CMP GSM Master Coaches Clinic taught by Gary Anderson,..............I don't think there is any of us that can dispute with the fact that Gary Anderson knows shooting.
 
Re: tip of finger vs. 2nd joint

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Besides it's not 1978 anymore</div></div>

No Sir, its not 1978, its 2010. In the Middle of Oct., this year, Gary Anderson will be teaching a CMP GSM MI course at the Western Games/Creedmor Matche, using the Cocked Leg/angled position. The Army MTU will be conducting SAFSs at the same match. The AMU/CMP's DM program is being taught at the Benning School for boys using that method. THIS YEAR.

I have no way, or knowledge of making a vedio, I am lucky to be able to use this computer.

However The CMP book store sells the AMU Service Rifle Guide, in book form and have a CD set.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
i. Your leg on your non-firing side should be straight back with your foot ling flat on the groud as is comfortable. You should not be on your toes, as it will create instability. The leg on the firing side is drawn slightly towards the shoulders. This allows your diaphragm to be raised off the goround and will provide easier breathing.</div></div>

USAMU Service Rifle Guide, pg 23

Prone%20Position.jpg
 
Re: tip of finger vs. 2nd joint

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: kraigWY</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Don't go by what drill structors try to instill in you in basic. They are drill sgts not coaches. Contact coaches from the AMU, CMP. In basic the drill instructors tell you to use the straight position "because you provide a smaller target" not because its a better shooting platform.</div></div> The Marine Corps doesn't use Drill Instructors to teach marksmanship. We have a permanent cadre of marksmanship instructors, serving as range coaches, Block NCOs or other range officials, and of course the Primary Marksmanship Instructor. The PMI is fully responsible for the marksmanship instruction the week prior to going hot on the range. Once on the range, it's on the coaches.

Unless it is a disciplinary issue, the DI's are strictly hands-off while they're on the firing line. They leave it to the pros.
 
Re: tip of finger vs. 2nd joint

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Show me... On video.

Besides it's not 1978 anymore. </div></div>

Try 1678! Why bother it doesn't pass the sniff test on a hard hitting gun? We can demonstrate the math with intuitive thought experiments.

It's football season. Let's take a halfback up the middle, ask the nose guard to take a knee and ask the middle linebacker to plant both feet. Who creams and who gets creamed. Anything short of symmetry causes spin. How else does the halfback ever get past the line of scrimmage? It's Newton .5-0-.5, not even 101. If he doesn't get hit head-on, it doesn't affect the path of the halfback much, even with men outweighing him by 100lbs.

At football games, there are also cheerleaders. They look really sweet when they lift their legs to the same stance described above. Once they grab that foot and extend it overhead, it's all over for me. Anyways, another thing you might see them do is make a pyramid, sometimes while standing. I'm usually too distracted to notice details, but has anyone ever seen them do one in the cocked leg formation? Is their a stability issue preventing it?

Everything behind the trigger is a funky segmented spring. Would you install springs at angles and expect repeatability? No, because that would be retarded. Do you install your buttstock 45 degrees to the right so it touches your outer shoulder and your head requires no motion to meet the scope? Why the hell would you mount your legs to the rifle that way? Are you subject to different laws of physics than the rifle itself?

The single biggest threat to sports performance is the insistance that the laws of physics don't apply to what you perceive as an artistic endeavor. The only people that just submissively accept reality on a wide scale seem to be gymnasts and ice-skaters, presumably because denial results in falling on your ass or breaking your neck... the first time. Everyone else thinks they're Beethoven and everyone's music is like open to interpratation and feelings.

The only person getting insulted by arguing angles and force during a collision is Newton, and the dude is spin-drifting in his grave at the thought of off-center triangles being added to an otherwise linear and symmetric structure about to engage in an impact. Physics isn't personal. To the contrary, as a poster I saw in a class once with a solar scene on it said, "Physics is universal!" Ancillary knowledge, experience, and even the end result of being the best in the history world does nothing to negate physics.
 
Re: tip of finger vs. 2nd joint

Ok, besides that one service rifle competition setting, who uses a sling to shoot prone? And in 2010 why would you for anything besides service rifle or Palma? This is Sniper's Hide not Service Rifle Central. I don't see may guys posted pictures of them slung up with their coats on.

Jacket, glove, sling, = slow, and not applicable to today's modern Army.

Show me that with an M24 using the issued bipod.
 
Re: tip of finger vs. 2nd joint

There's matches that throw in unsupported prone (no bipod, sling OK).
A good injun remains flexible like his bow.......
 
Re: tip of finger vs. 2nd joint

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BugSniper</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Show me... On video.

Besides it's not 1978 anymore. </div></div>

Try 1678! Why bother it doesn't pass the sniff test on a hard hitting gun? We can demonstrate the math with intuitive thought experiments.

It's football season. Let's take a halfback up the middle, ask the nose guard to take a knee and ask the middle linebacker to plant both feet. Who creams and who gets creamed. Anything short of symmetry causes spin. How else does the halfback ever get past the line of scrimmage? It's Newton .5-0-.5, not even 101. If he doesn't get hit head-on, it doesn't affect the path of the halfback much, even with men outweighing him by 100lbs.

At football games, there are also cheerleaders. They look really sweet when they lift their legs to the same stance described above. Once they grab that foot and extend it overhead, it's all over for me. Anyways, another thing you might see them do is make a pyramid, sometimes while standing. I'm usually too distracted to notice details, but has anyone ever seen them do one in the cocked leg formation? Is their a stability issue preventing it?

Everything behind the trigger is a funky segmented spring. Would you install springs at angles and expect repeatability? No, because that would be retarded. Do you install your buttstock 45 degrees to the right so it touches your outer shoulder and your head requires no motion to meet the scope? Why the hell would you mount your legs to the rifle that way? Are you subject to different laws of physics than the rifle itself?

The single biggest threat to sports performance is the insistance that the laws of physics don't apply to what you perceive as an artistic endeavor. The only people that just submissively accept reality on a wide scale seem to be gymnasts and ice-skaters, presumably because denial results in falling on your ass or breaking your neck... the first time. Everyone else thinks they're Beethoven and everyone's music is like open to interpratation and feelings.

The only person getting insulted by arguing angles and force during a collision is Newton, and the dude is spin-drifting in his grave at the thought of off-center triangles being added to an otherwise linear and symmetric structure about to engage in an impact. Physics isn't personal. To the contrary, as a poster I saw in a class once with a solar scene on it said, "Physics is universal!" Ancillary knowledge, experience, and even the end result of being the best in the history world does nothing to negate physics.</div></div>

Awesome.
 
Re: tip of finger vs. 2nd joint

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Big Brother, that is a terrible example to post, even Sterling will tell you he is muscling the system, and not using bone support.

The weapon should be over the elbow which is over the knee...
smile.gif
</div></div>

I definitely agree. And referring to the "clamshell" grip you should hawk an earring and buy a Ergo delux grip-its as close to what you are talkig about there is on the market that I know of-but all that Magpul stuff looks cool don't it?
Plus you look to be "dragging wood" with that finger....
 
Re: tip of finger vs. 2nd joint

That's not me dude. That's a shot from the Magpul carbine training thread I pulled. But I'm sure he'd like to hear your thoughts on his man bling all the same
smile.gif
 
Re: tip of finger vs. 2nd joint

I don't even agree with cocking the leg in service rifle competition, and USMC entry level marksmanship training is just modified service rifle. Like BugSniper said, it's physics. Why angle what you can have straight? It doesn't make sense on paper to be angled, and I know from my own experience that it makes no sense on the firing line.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: kraigWY</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
i. Your leg on your non-firing side should be straight back with your foot ling flat on the groud as is comfortable. You should not be on your toes, as it will create instability. The leg on the firing side is drawn slightly towards the shoulders. <span style="font-weight: bold">This allows your diaphragm to be raised off the goround and will provide easier breathing.</span></div></div> Like I said earlier, we only resorted to this style when the shooter had a large chest (females or body builders usually), or they had a fat gut. Only then would the diaphragm be effected to the point that it would restrict normal breathing, therefore would we work for an alternative.

Anyone that is a fit male of normal size could get behind the rifle, feet spread at about shoulder width apart, heels on the ground with toes outboard, with full body mass possible behind the weapon so that I could draw a straight line down the barrel, through the shoulder and torso and down the firing leg. That way the shooter's NPA would remain the same from shot to shot, including rapid fire, and would not require minor adjustments like was mentioned earlier.

We didn't teach only to combat marksmanship. We taught basic marksmanship, then 2 weeks later another set of instructors would take them into the combat marksmanship stage. We used loop slings, shooting gloves, slow fire/rapid fire stages, data books, sitting-kneeling-standing-prone positions, the whole works short of Baker targets and shooting jackets.

I fully respect both yours and Sterling Shooter's experience, Distinguished Shooter status, and your instructor history. You guys were shooting before I was a twinkle in my father's eye, and have a lot more time on a firing line than I do. I'm just saying that I believe, based on my Marine Corps marksmanship and sniper background, that the best technique for the prone position is to get fully behind the rifle, be it slung position shooting with a service rifle or behind a precision rifle on a bipod. Any caliber, any level range setting.

And just so I don't get called out for going totally OT, I say again to use the first pad of the trigger finger, well, unless you're like the Fijian student I had one time that had hands so large he we joked that he could conceal an M9 in his palm! Straight trigger finger nearly extended to the front sight. Getting that guy qualified was a real chore.
smile.gif
Click to expand...
 
Re: tip of finger vs. 2nd joint

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: kraigWY</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Besides it's not 1978 anymore</div></div>

No Sir, its not 1978, its 2010. In the Middle of Oct., this year, Gary Anderson will be teaching a CMP GSM MI course at the Western Games/Creedmor Matche, using the Cocked Leg/angled position. The Army MTU will be conducting SAFSs at the same match. The AMU/CMP's DM program is being taught at the Benning School for boys using that method. THIS YEAR.

I have no way, or knowledge of making a vedio, I am lucky to be able to use this computer.

However The CMP book store sells the AMU Service Rifle Guide, in book form and have a CD set.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
i. Your leg on your non-firing side should be straight back with your foot ling flat on the groud as is comfortable. You should not be on your toes, as it will create instability. The leg on the firing side is drawn slightly towards the shoulders. This allows your diaphragm to be raised off the goround and will provide easier breathing.</div></div>

USAMU Service Rifle Guide, pg 23

Prone%20Position.jpg
</div></div>

The unidentified shooter presented to us by Kraig is, I believe, Grant Singley. Most folks think he may be the best Service Rifle shooter out there today. The fact is, he's won the National Trophy Service Rifle Championship on 4 occasions. Now, here's the dilemma, he's either got his prone position right or wrong; however, only an idiot would dare to tell this champion marksman he's not doing it right. And, I would guess you'd likely hear Grant Singley say to such fool something like, "wanna show me how to do it". And, that's the problem I see here, folks who have a notion about it all, telling others who are clearly getting the job done that they're doing it wrong.

Now, since marksmanship in the hunting field, battlefield, and competition range is all the same, I'm talking about hitting where aimed; and, since it appears Grant Singley hits where aimed better than anyone else on the planet, it would appear that the bent knee position is something an aspiring shooter who wants to get to the highest plateaus would want to look into.

Bottom line, who ya gonna get your advise from. For me, I listen to folks who clearly know how to do it; and, I try out what they suggest. After all, why not give it a shot, especially if my approach is not working? Thing is, folks who really know how to do it are very likely not to say,"you're doing it wrong" instead, they will say," you might wanna try this".



 
Re: tip of finger vs. 2nd joint

He is a target from his head to his hips along 3ft or more of space, he cannot repeat this with a bipod and stay on target.

Again you called me out about an AR and being straight and I showed you, as well a USMC instructor explained their position now show me this with a bipod and stay on target.

Even David Tubb is advocating the straight behind the rifle position, now.

You wouldn't take the advice of a winning shotgun shooter from service rifle would you?

Different sport, not applicable however you want to say it, his position only serves one function.
 
Re: tip of finger vs. 2nd joint

Please show me you shooting a bolt gun without a sling, but using a bipod using your or this technique...

Please, I would like a demonstration if this is truly the best possible way to shoot a precision rifle.
 
Re: tip of finger vs. 2nd joint

Kraig, like I said earlier, all the respect in the world to the match shooters and national champions. It works for them. This works for us. We just prefer to do it differently with these reasons for it. Here is a quote from MCRP 3-01A Rifle Marksmanship Manual
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Figure 5-27. Straight Leg Prone Position with Loop Sling.
Once on the ground, roll your body to the left side as you extend and invert your left elbow on the ground. Stretch your legs out behind you. Spread your feet a comfortable distance apart with your toes pointing outboard and the inner portion of your feet in contact with the ground.

<span style="font-weight: bold">As much of your body mass should be aligned directly behind the rifle as possible.

If body alignment is correct, the weapon's recoil is absorbed by the whole body and not just the shoulder.</span></div></div>Now, it also mentions using cocked leg prone too, and for the reasons I stated earlier on helping relieve pressure from the diaphragm. I didn't say we don't use it. It is in the manual too. But, we only use it under certain conditions. The preferred method for us is the straight leg prone, directly behind the rifle.
 
Re: tip of finger vs. 2nd joint

Sterling how about a free slot, I will even consider 2, one for back up if you come to the fall shooters bash or if you can't make that, to the Sniper's Hide Cup. You don't even have to shoot if you don't want I would like a demonstration please.

If you don't shoot the match I will pay for your hotel instead of the slot.

I would honestly like to see how this works with a precision rifle without a sling.
 
Re: tip of finger vs. 2nd joint

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Please show me you shooting a bolt gun without a sling, but using a bipod using your or this technique...

Please, I would like a demonstration if this is truly the best possible way to shoot a precision rifle.

</div></div>

I own a few bibods, but use em only for rifle rests, not support. I shoot what you'd call a "precision" rifle in NRA LR with a sling support for Match Rifle and Any/Any competitions. Of course, for these competitions a bipod aid is not allowed, just a sling.

BTW, I never advocated a technique for shooting with a bipod, it seems you're comfortable doing that. And, indeed, whatever you say about it, I'm sure you know is something you are certain will get the job done.
 
Re: tip of finger vs. 2nd joint

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sterling Shooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Please show me you shooting a bolt gun without a sling, but using a bipod using your or this technique...

Please, I would like a demonstration if this is truly the best possible way to shoot a precision rifle.

</div></div>

Now, since marksmanship in the hunting field, battlefield, and competition range is all the same, I'm talking about hitting where aimed; and, since it appears Grant Singley hits where aimed better than anyone else on the planet, it would appear that the bent knee position is something an aspiring shooter who wants to get to the highest plateaus would want to look into. </div></div>

I can loan you a bipod, or two... i can even have the rifles here for you, whatever you want to use... just without a sling.

All I want is a demonstration of this technique as it applies to 95% of the members of this site as well as to the sniper in the field.

Thanks,
 
Re: tip of finger vs. 2nd joint

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sterling Shooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

BTW, I never advocated a technique for shooting with a bipod, it seems you're comfortable doing that. And, indeed, whatever you say about it I'm sure you know is something you are certain will get the job done. </div></div>

Hmm, but you also wrote this...

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sterling Shooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

Now, <span style="font-weight: bold">since marksmanship in the hunting field, battlefield, and competition range is all the same,</span> I'm talking about hitting where aimed; and, since it appears Grant Singley hits where aimed better than anyone else on the planet, <span style="font-weight: bold">it would appear that the bent knee position is something an aspiring shooter who wants to get to the highest plateaus would want to look into.. </span> </div></div>

I don't see a caveat in this, that says, only with a sling, or not with a bipod ? So I am confused because when I bring that to your attention you wrote.


<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sterling Shooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">What ever you say Frank.</div></div>

That sounds like I don't know what I am saying and you're perspective on the subject of marksmanship is the correct one.

it reads pretty cut and dry from my position. If you like i can arrange for a clinic, bring you in during a PR 1 & 2 and I will pay you out of my pocket for your time to explain how this works to those of us not dependent on a sling for shooting especially in the prone position. Because I would tend to agree with you 100% on all of this from the sitting and kneeling position, but in Prone, I don't believe it fits my objective. Again, I have asked, why would I ?

I can shoot with a sling and know what makes the elements of a good position. I was taught in the USMC, we have that whole, "grass week" where all you do is dry practice before going live fire the next week. I was a 5th award expert there, with an AR and a sling, not too bad for 4 years, so I have a foundation. But I don't see how this works in the context of this site.

Let's say, since the Army just announced Remington's new 300WM MSR was awarded, the AMU called you to instruct the new shooters who would deploy this system, how would you go about teaching them to shoot the M24-MSR in 300WM ?

It's all the same, hunting, competition, battlefield, that must mean 5.56-AR, 308, 338LM, .50, so I would like to see it demonstrated as such.
 
Re: tip of finger vs. 2nd joint

I wonder why them 3/75 boys with 3-4 tours went to AMU to learn to be better shooters. Yep, its just because it was next door within walking distance, not because the AMU guys are any good.. Just convenience...
I kinda notice too that NONE of those 3/75 - AMU combat dogs are coming here to discuss whose dog is better than whose. No disrespect there Dave.

Somebody here is using the argument that the non straight position leaves 3/4 or so body for target and the straight position does not so its so much better for combat.
Sure, on a flat range this is true, but this pisses all over the use of TACTICS and cover to survive in a combat zone where only a real dumb ass lays out in the open.
And some of the horseshit discussed here ASSUMES you have the time to adjust your bipod in a combat zone when you jump down flat behind the rifle to make that shot when you do jump down and some shit is higher than your muzzle.
Them people don't adjust the bipod, they go up on elbows, bam, and move.
Shoot and move is still taught over laying out there in the real world places who ain't got a bone in trying to prove their dog is better than somebody elses.

Frank, the AMU was shooting 300's back in the 80's, so they don't need Charles to teach it, they already know how. Ask our AMU historian friend Dave if you don't believe me.

All this 6 pages about placing a pad on the trigger. Some people need to get a different kind of pad for their drip.
 
Re: tip of finger vs. 2nd joint

JW,

The trigger who set a BN record back in March for kills was a 3X RO almuni... you can take it for what it is worth, maybe nothing all.

I like to think we excel in alternate position shooting, we have this range set up mostly to shoot from unconventional positions under time constrains, we run them from the Patio to the road coming in and back shooting the whole way, as well we score them as part of their final exercise. 1, 2, and 3...
smile.gif


If you want to talk combat, and tactics, I am all about talking about Support side shooting using the technique advocated by the AMU... I want to see them do that from the weak side, like we do.

Not angry by any means, just interested.
 
Re: tip of finger vs. 2nd joint

Not angry by any means here either.

Apples and Oranges and you know it.
AMU and USMC team training is fundamentals to the maximum and the competition scores prove it.
Those combat dogs who use AMU and the Marines who use the 3 years the Corp allows them on the USMC team do so to improve their fundamentals because they recognize the value in this training outside of competition.

If what the military did in other combatives training were working, there would not be places like Larry's and such proliferating and succeeding. Delta outsourced their people for training long before it was known on internet boards.

AMU is not intended to be a combat training course and you know it. You wanting to see weak side training from AMU compared to what you do, could be done IF it fit AMU doctrinal requirements and you of all people know that it does not and that it is not going to happen.

Weak side training was standard in LE way before it got any recognition in Military, so its nothing new in tactics.

What you are doing along with other places, is filling a need that standard military training does not meet, for a specialized MOS.

These discussions about who is best, you or AMU do nothing to answer the questions about fundamental marksmanship details asked about here, its like a pissing contest, my dog is better than yours, you or AMU.

My point, no anger intended. AMU has a better record teaching fundamentals like pad of finger on trigger and providing consistent accuracy results better than anybody out there.

AND you believe you provide the best of "this": "I like to think we excel in alternate position shooting, we have this range set up mostly to shoot from unconventional positions under time constrains, we run them from the Patio to the road coming in and back shooting the whole way, as well we score them as part of their final exercise. 1, 2, and 3..."
And if you were doing something wrong, you'd not see the results you see, and if you were doing something wrong, you'd be out of business.

These discussions that fall into AMU vs You, and whose dog is better is pretty close to a radical Muslim versus the Crusaders, neither side is going to give in. And neither is wrong for their doctrine....

This discussion is all about the finger pad on the trigger. Right?
 
Re: tip of finger vs. 2nd joint

JW,

I have no issue with the AMU, none, I didn't even bring them into this... I didn't make the quotes I have above. I have specifically said it is a single competition mindset, not that all shooting is the same and because the AMU is doing it it, that it will fit the bill for everyone -- please go read this thread and who is claiming what.

I do know the difference which, I have done nothing more than to point out. Never compared myself to the AMU, only been compared too by others who want to point out because what we are doing is different, it is not good fundamentals. As well you might want to read the thread a little closer and see how the doctrine has changed to "what is comfortable to start is right in the end" approach. Myself and others are simply wondering out loud against this.

I have no interest in an AMU vs anyone pissing match, they are known for calling units to "tattle" shall we say on what I say, clearly if they don't like what I say, they will do what they can to hurt us. So again, i have no issue with them, or their teaching... period.

I don't want people to think because Gary is kicked off to the side, and Charles says all shooting is the same, that they can do that with a bipod. That is not a fundamental argument, which has been my point.

Service RIfle, Palma, 3 Gun, are competitive sports, with some cross over, but not enough to survive the realities of the ground. While fundamentals help all, there are some key difference that make each sport different enough to matter.

Understand to all, I never put into question the ability of anyone within their sport, however why can Juan Pablo Montoya win the Indy 500 and not the Daytona 500, same thing, driving fast, turning left, should be a no brainer. Same thing for Danica, all they talk about is the learning experience required to transition from Indy to Nascar. Same thing there... service rifle is not Tactical Rifle.
 
Re: tip of finger vs. 2nd joint

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Understand to all, I never put into question the ability of anyone within their sport, however why can Juan Pablo Montoya win the Indy 500 and not the Daytona 500, same thing, driving fast, turning left, should be a no brainer. Same thing for Danica, all they talk about is the learning experience required to transition from Indy to Nascar. Same thing there... service rifle is not Tactical Rifle.</div></div>In F1 car racing it's 90% car and 10% driver. Practical rifle shooting is more like motorcycle racing: the reverse - 90% driver and 10% equipment.

And 90% of that 90% is about what happens between the ears.
 
Re: tip of finger vs. 2nd joint

I have no idea who came up with idea of weak side rifle shooting but I was taught it in a FBI Sniper school in early 1980s. It was taught to me as if it had been around from the dawn of time.

This idea of straight behind the rifle as a must, is like most rules that end up being " Mostly a guideline" I prefer straight behind the rifle when I can but many times due to terrain or tactics its simply not possible. Roof tops or otehr improvised shooting positions cause havox with standard positions. I have always had a heck of a time getting straight behind the rifle weak sided and or when wearing a gas mask. For that its almost a 90 degree hold just to see the sites. In the end its what works and is repeatable. Granted by physics I think we can all agree the straighter behind the rifle the straighter and shorter the recoil pulse, making follow up shoots fatser. The rifle is less likely to be off target after the shot.

As to square range, being straight behind the rifle. I prefer it as well but many guys on the F TR Team shoot from an angle. Heck I would try to change them but they already beat me regularly, so no use helping them out. LOL

I think whats being missed here is anything is at best a 90 percent solution. That includes trigger finger placement, body position etc.
 
Re: tip of finger vs. 2nd joint

i dont know for sure but everything i have read and seen about sniper shooting has pointed to the pad mostly because you can feel you heart beat and shoot between beats to achieve more accuracy but i have heard that same thing over and over again
 
Re: tip of finger vs. 2nd joint

If you shoot on a square range, at unvarying ranges, and you can consistently repeat the angle at which you shoot, then shooting with your body at an angle to the rifle can be useful.

The reason is that the horizontal offset caused by being at an angle is built into the sight setting. For the same reason, you can shoot with the rifle canted, because the horizontal and vertical offsets caused by the cant are compensated for in your sight setting.

That's especially true if you are shooting during competition events where (a) you have spotters, and (b) the target is pulled and the result of each shot marked - which means something other than your own observation will tell you the result of your shot.

If, however, you must observe the result of your own shot, are shooting at unpredictable ranges with no sighters, would really like to hit the target in question with the first or second shot, and don't want to expose more of your body to incoming fire than necessary, then being straight behind the rifle is a really good idea.

Like many things, the appropriate technique is determined by the context in which the shot occurs. A prudent shooter will utilize a technique which will maximize the probability of hitting the target.
 
Re: tip of finger vs. 2nd joint

I think whats being missed here is anything is at best a 90 percent solution. That includes trigger finger placement, body position etc.
 
Re: tip of finger vs. 2nd joint

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lindy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If you shoot on a square range, at unvarying ranges, and you can consistently repeat the angle at which you shoot, then shooting with your body at an angle to the rifle can be useful.

The reason is that the horizontal offset caused by being at an angle is built into the sight setting. For the same reason, you can shoot with the rifle canted, because the horizontal and vertical offsets caused by the cant are compensated for in your sight setting.

That's especially true if you are shooting during competition events where (a) you have spotters, and (b) the target is pulled and the result of each shot marked - which means something other than your own observation will tell you the result of your shot.

If, however, you must observe the result of your own shot, are shooting at unpredictable ranges with no sighters, would really like to hit the target in question with the first or second shot, and don't want to expose more of your body to incoming fire than necessary, then being straight behind the rifle is a really good idea.

Like many things, the appropriate technique is determined by the context in which the shot occurs. A prudent shooter will utilize a technique which will maximize the probability of hitting the target.
</div></div>


Cause and effect work from any contortion, make it consistent to the molecular level and bullets will all go in the same hole at any distance, everything else perfected, of course. Consistent in all aspects seems to be the key. What's somewhat amusing about it is that perfection is most important in sight alignment; yet, it does not mean the need to do it in any particular way, like the tip of the front sight post in the center of the rear peep. The tip of the post could have another relationship with the peep, however, getting a consistent relationship other than one with the front post tip centered would be difficult. Using the front sight post tip centered is easy since the brain wants to naturally center and balance things. Well, this is way off the thread, just some stream of consciousness thing.
 
Re: tip of finger vs. 2nd joint

Well, with iron sights and round black targets, some do better with a center hold, while others are better with a six o'clock hold. The sight settings will be slightly different - and consistency is the key to hitting the center of the target.
 
Re: tip of finger vs. 2nd joint

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jollyrancher</div><div class="ubbcode-body">i dont know for sure but everything i have read and seen about sniper shooting has pointed to<span style="color: #3366FF"> the pad mostly because you can feel you heart beat and shoot between beats </span>to achieve more accuracy but i have heard that same thing over and over again </div></div>

I can't believe I just read that....
 
Re: tip of finger vs. 2nd joint

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sobrbiker883</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jollyrancher</div><div class="ubbcode-body">i dont know for sure but everything i have read and seen about sniper shooting has pointed to<span style="color: #3366FF"> the pad mostly because you can feel you heart beat and shoot between beats </span>to achieve more accuracy but i have heard that same thing over and over again </div></div>

I can't believe I just read that.... </div></div>

Yeah, looks like someone needs to head on over to the "What NOT to ask [or in this case, claim] on SH" thread
smile.gif
 
Re: tip of finger vs. 2nd joint

Actually, it makes sense.......maybe I'll sand my fingertip to make it a little more sensitive.
 
Re: tip of finger vs. 2nd joint

I must be a zombie. I can't feel my pulse there at all. I'll head over to arf to see if someone will put me out of my misery...

Edit: Nah, I'll just post up on the 2012 thread instead.
 
Re: tip of finger vs. 2nd joint

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">It doesn't show up close but at distance it definitely make a difference

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I wished I had seen that years ago.

My Big Hands make using the pad of the finer very challenging.

But, it sure looks easier if you don't grip the rifle like its a base ball bat!

D'oh!

BMT
 
Re: tip of finger vs. 2nd joint

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lindy</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Well, with iron sights and round black targets, some do better with a center hold, while others are better with a six o'clock hold. The sight settings will be slightly different - and consistency is the key to hitting the center of the target.
</div></div>

I was referring to sight alignment, not hold; nevertheless, both need to be consistent. On the other hand, a shooter's wobble does not have the consequence that sight misalignment has, since hold error is not angular.
 
Re: tip of finger vs. 2nd joint

I was taught to use the pad of the trigger finger not the very tip or joint. The joint tends to push the trigger sideways and the tip just feels funny to me.
Some guns have different spacing from the grip to the trigger than is perfect for a comfortable trigger finger position.
I just built a custom stock and made it just right for my hand so the finger pad is square on the trigger and all the pressure is straight back . I can sometimes feel my pulse in the trigger finger on my heavy triggers but feeling it and shooting between beats would be darn near impossible on a light trigger.
Unless you were an olympic champion with a super slow heart rate.
 
Re: tip of finger vs. 2nd joint

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sobrbiker883</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Actually, it makes sense.......maybe I'll sand my fingertip to make it a little more sensitive. </div></div>

You haven't done that already? lol jk
 
Re: tip of finger vs. 2nd joint

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sterling Shooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">generally it begins with the finger placed on the trigger where it indeed is relaxed, where ever that may be. Of course, I guess they could be told to place their finger on the trigger using other terms, possibly telling them to place the finger on the trigger where it's not comfortable. Tip, pad, joint, if it does not complement the mechanics, there will be a problem. Maybe in the end, it's not about comfort, but it's a good place to start. </div></div>

generally no. I learned trigger placement from playing in band in 6th grade, you can manipulate the keys on instruments much more effectively from a "C" shaped hand position where you get a truer 90 degree engagement of the keys. The same things holds true for firearms, the person who finger fucks a 1911 by "naturally" putting their second joint into the trigger guard will never shot as well as an individual who puts their first pad on the trigger shoe at a 90 degree angle from the axis of trigger pull forming a "C" with their finger. They will apply less force to pull the trigger, and they will be able to operate it more efficiently, and everything else being the same more accurately.
 
Re: tip of finger vs. 2nd joint

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: aggiesig</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Sterling Shooter</div><div class="ubbcode-body">generally it begins with the finger placed on the trigger where it indeed is relaxed, where ever that may be. Of course, I guess they could be told to place their finger on the trigger using other terms, possibly telling them to place the finger on the trigger where it's not comfortable. Tip, pad, joint, if it does not complement the mechanics, there will be a problem. Maybe in the end, it's not about comfort, but it's a good place to start. </div></div>

generally no. I learned trigger placement from playing in band in 6th grade, you can manipulate the keys on instruments much more effectively from a "C" shaped hand position where you get a truer 90 degree engagement of the keys. The same things holds true for firearms, the person who finger fucks a 1911 by "naturally" putting their second joint into the trigger guard will never shot as well as an individual who puts their first pad on the trigger shoe at a 90 degree angle from the axis of trigger pull forming a "C" with their finger. They will apply less force to pull the trigger, and they will be able to operate it more efficiently, and everything else being the same more accurately.</div></div>

O.K., thanks for showing me how to do it. Your "hold true" statements however don't hold true. The relationship between shooter, gun, and ground is as unique to the design of the firearm, as it is to the build of the shooter. Whatever this relationship, the idea is to transfer the stability of the ground into the position. Finger position on an AR for shooter X might be quite divergent from a proper finger position on a 1911. What is not unique however is pulling the trigger in a manner that does not disturb aim, as this concept is mental not physical. This concept is "generally" described as SMOOTH.
 
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