Tips for Loading VLD's in the 25/06

[XOK-DESIGN]

Hi all
On the recommendation of fellow hide members I have decided to try 115 Berger VLD's in my 25/06. I did a ladder test at 600 yards and didn't see any obvious nodes. So i went straight to trying a load of 60gr of H1000 with the bullet about 5 thou off the lands and Remington 9 1/2 primers. Velocity was 3080fps but accuracy was not so impressive with about 2 MOA. The gun is capable of better, it shoots everything else I have fed it under 1 MOA. Dose anyone have any advice for what direction I should go with my load development form here? are there any tricks for VLD bullets? Should I perhaps try a different primer seen as I have a full case of relatively slow burning powder? I really want to make these bullets work.

The gun is a Sako 85 stainless
22.5'' barrel, light weight
1-10 twist

Thanks

 

[supratt96]

Re: Tips for Loading VLD's in the 25/06

Have you tried loading them with some jump? I use VLDs in several of my rifles and find they often shoot better when jumpped a bit. .030 off the lands has worked well for me.

 

[trailrider121]

Re: Tips for Loading VLD's in the 25/06

If you have a good node with your 25-06 and using same weight bullet. The vld's will shoot, they are picky on COAL.

Read this from Berger Bullets:

Getting the Best Precision and Accuracy from VLD bullets in Your Rifle

Background

VLD bullets are designed with a secant ogive. This ogive shape allows bullets to be more efficient in flight (retain more velocity = less drop and wind deflection). While this result is desirable for many rifle shooters the secant ogive on the VLD bullets produces another result in many rifles. It can be difficult to get the VLD to group well (poor accuracy).

For years we encouraged shooters to use a base of cartridge to end of bearing surface OAL (I will use the term COAL to represent this dimension) which allows the VLD to touch the rifling or to be jammed in the rifling. This provided excellent results for many shooters but there were others who did not achieve top performance with the VLD jammed in their rifling. These shooters were left with the belief that the VLD bullets just won’t shoot in their rifle.

Other groups of shooters were discouraged by our recommendation to touch the rifling. Some of these shooters knew that at some point during a target competition they will be asked to remove a live round. With the bullet jammed in the rifling there was a good chance the bullet will stick in the barrel which could result in an action full of powder. This is hard on a shooter during a match.

Yet another group of shooters who were discouraged by our recommendation to touch the rifling are those who feed through magazines or have long throats. Magazine length rounds loaded with VLDs could not touch the lands in most rifles (this is the specific reason that for years we said VLD bullets do not work well in a magazine). When a rifle could be single fed but was chambered with a long throat a loaded round that was as long as possible still would not touch the rifling.

Until recently, shooters who suffered from these realities were believed to be unable to achieve success with VLD bullets. Admittedly, we would receive the occasional report that a rifle shot very well when jumping the VLD bullets but we discounted these reports as anomalies. It was not until the VLD became very popular as a game hunting bullet that we were then able to learn the truth about getting the VLD bullets to shoot well in a large majority of rifles.

After we proved that the Berger VLD bullets are consistently and exceptionally capable of putting game down quickly we started promoting the VLD to hunters. We were nervous at first as we believe the VLD needed to be in the rifling to shoot well and we also knew that most hunters use a magazine and SAMMI chambers. Our ears were wide open as the feedback was received. It was surprising to hear that most shooters described precision results by saying “this is the best my rifle has ever shot.”

We scratched our heads about this for awhile until we started getting feedback from hunters who were competition shooters as well. Many were the same guys who were telling us for years that the VLDs shoot great when jumped. Since a much larger number of shooters were using the VLD bullets with a jump we started comparing all the feedback and have discovered the common characteristics in successful reports which gave us the information needed to get VLD working in your rifle. We were able to relay these characteristics to several shooters who were struggling with VLD bullets. Each shooter reported success after applying our recommendation.


Getting the Best Precision and Accuracy from VLD bullets in Your Rifle

Solution

The following has been verified by numerous shooters in many rifles using bullets of different calibers and weights. It is consistent for all VLD bullets. What has been discovered is that VLD bullets shoot best when loaded to a COAL that puts the bullet in a “sweet spot”. This sweet spot is a band .030 to .040 wide and is located anywhere between jamming the bullets into the lands and .150 jump off the lands.

Note: When discussing jam and jump I am referring to the distance from the area of the bearing surface that engages the rifling and the rifling itself. There are many products that allow you to measure these critical dimensions. Some are better than others. I won’t be going into the methods of measuring jam and jump. If you are not familiar with this aspect of reloading it is critically important that you understand this concept before you attempt this test.

Many reloaders feel (and I tend to agree) that meaningful COAL adjustments are .002 to .005. Every once in a while I might adjust the COAL by .010 but this seems like I am moving the bullet the length of a football field. The only way a shooter will be able to benefit from this situation is to let go of this opinion that more than .010 change is too much (me included).

Trying to find the COAL that puts you in the sweet spot by moving .002 to .010 will take so long the barrel may be worn out by the time you sort it out if you don’t give up first. Since the sweet spot is .030 to .040 wide we recommend that you conduct the following test to find your rifles VLD sweet spot.

Load 24 rounds at the following COAL if you are a target competition shooter who does not worry about jamming a bullet:
1. .010 into (touching) the lands (jam) 6 rounds
2. .040 off the lands (jump) 6 rounds
3. .080 off the lands (jump) 6 rounds
4. .120 off the lands (jump) 6 rounds

Load 24 rounds at the following COAL if you are a hunter (pulling a bullet out of the case with your rifling while in the field can be a hunt ending event which must be avoided) or a competition shooter who worries about pulling a bullet during a match:
1. .010 off the lands (jump) 6 rounds
2. .050 off the lands (jump) 6 rounds
3. .090 off the lands (jump) 6 rounds
4. .130 off the lands (jump) 6 rounds

Shoot 2 (separate) 3 shot groups in fair conditions to see how they group. The remarkable reality of this test is that one of these 4 COALs will outperform the other three by a considerable margin. Once you know which one of these 4 COAL shoots best then you can tweak the COAL +/- .002 or .005. Taking the time to set this test up will pay off when you find that your rifle is capable of shooting the VLD bullets very well (even at 100 yards).

Regards,
Eric Stecker
Master Bulletsmith

 

[XOK-DESIGN]

Re: Tips for Loading VLD's in the 25/06

Lakeway and Trailrider thanks for the help, I have a COAL gauge so I'm all set to start experimenting with length, hopefully something good happens.

 

[Hookturnr]

Re: Tips for Loading VLD's in the 25/06

I'm working up the same bullet right now as well. I'm using H4831sc and my load development went like this so far:
Ladder test at 300...seated at the lands...nothing obvious

took a 1 gr. range from ladder that was closest and loaded 3 rd. groups from 53.0 to 54.1 in .3 increments...53.0 and 53.9 about the same and better than the others. All about 1.5MOA at 200 yds.

Ran the seating depth test as outlined above and found .40 off the lands preformed noticably better than the rest

Just loaded up 53.0 to 53.9 5 shot groups in .3 increments at the new seating depth to try out tomorrow but I'm seeing slight improvements each step of the way.

 

[XOK-DESIGN]

Re: Tips for Loading VLD's in the 25/06

Sounds like theres hope for these pills yet. let us know how you get on with them.

 

[BuzzBoss915]

Re: Tips for Loading VLD's in the 25/06

Without knowing your motivation, to begin with, I guess we should assume it is long range target shooting?

I have quite a bit of experience with 25'06 both the standard Remington and Ackley configuration. However, my application is hunting. With that in mind, I can tell you what I have used in the past and what I use, currently.

I have used W760 and IMR4831 and 120 and 117 Sierra's. But, in my current rifle, (my third) I use the 100 grain Nosler ballistic tip and R-22. My velocity is over 3600fps and accuracy is less than one half inch, on a good day. Barrel is 29" 1X13" twist 6 groove Hart.

Maybe you can use some of that and maybe not, up to you?
Good luck, BB

 

[XOK-DESIGN]

Re: Tips for Loading VLD's in the 25/06

Any input is appreciated BB
The rifle is a sporter weight but I am using it for targets as well as hunting. Up until now I have been using 100 grain ballistic tips for paper and hunting but am hoping I can successfully switch to the VLD for the sake of a better BC. I have ordered a Remington 5R in .223 and when it arrives I will use it for most of my range work so the 25/06 will slip back into its original roll as a hunting rifle. although I will still use it at the range when conditions are a bit harsh for the .223.

 

[hntbambi]

Re: Tips for Loading VLD's in the 25/06

I did an OCW for my Savage 110 in 25-06 last year. It has a Shilen drop in barrel but is only a sporter weight. I ended up with 53.4 gr H4831-SC in Rem brass, Fed GM 210M primer, and a 115 Berger Hunting VLD seated 0.090" from the lands.

This was the seating depth fine tune:

Here is 300 yard group:

Here is a 600 yard group:

 

[XOK-DESIGN]

Re: Tips for Loading VLD's in the 25/06

Nice Photos Hntbambi.
Is amazing how much these bullets seem to respond to some tuning of the seating depth. I have made up some rounds to test as per the suggested procedure and will see how they go when I next get the chance

 

[country888]

Re: Tips for Loading VLD's in the 25/06

Im very glad to see you guys using the 25-06! I been using my 25-06 sendero fpe awhile now & some at long range. Not the best caliber for 1000 yds but it will get there! I been shooting 85gn BT for plinking & varmints, it does a great job. I have used the 85gn out to 1000 for the hell of it. I have a box of berger 115 gn vld i been meaning to try it it but not had the time to work up a load. This thread has got me very interested in doing so! Ill get to work on it & post some results as soon as i can.

 

[XOK-DESIGN]

Re: Tips for Loading VLD's in the 25/06

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: country888</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Im very glad to see you guys using the 25-06! I been using my 25-06 sendero fpe awhile now & some at long range. Not the best caliber for 1000 yds but it will get there! I been shooting 85gn BT for plinking & varmints, it does a great job. I have used the 85gn out to 1000 for the hell of it. I have a box of berger 115 gn vld i been meaning to try it it but not had the time to work up a load. This thread has got me very interested in doing so! Ill get to work on it & post some results as soon as i can. </div></div>

A 25/06 sendero with 115 VLD's should be a top performer at 1000yd

 

[Chris@InterstateGuns]

Re: Tips for Loading VLD's in the 25/06

VLD's are seating depth sensitive. If I'm not mistaken it's because the ogive on VLD is a secant vs tangent. If you are looking for a less seating depth sensitive alternative, try the hybrid projectiles.

Using the method in the article above has always worked well for me when working up new loads for my VLD's.

 

[country888]

Re: Tips for Loading VLD's in the 25/06

XOK, the sendero shoots great! It should do very well with the vld's. Just havnt worked up any loads. Been using H4831 & may try some H4350 in it. I need to take advice given above & do some testing!

 

[Hookturnr]

Re: Tips for Loading VLD's in the 25/06

Well, I kinda got sidetracked by the new 300RUM that just came back from Hart but I did shoot my next batch for the 25.06 and found it prefers 53.3gr. H4831sc with the 115 gr. VLD at .040 off the lands. This turned in 2 5 shot groups at .893 and .920 the other day. I also played a bit more with my 115gr. Nosler BT load and it turned in nearly identical results. This is out of a bone stock browning Abolt II Stainless stalker with the BOSS. I think it's gonna work out just fine. Still probably tinker with it a bit more but it's looking pretty good.

 

[country888]

Re: Tips for Loading VLD's in the 25/06

Glad to hear that hookturner. I need to get to work with mine. I did shoot some with mine today, but with the 85gnBT's.

 

[AMG04]

Re: Tips for Loading VLD's in the 25/06

So far I have loaded 115gr VLDs over 3 different powders to begin loaded testing. RE-19, IMR 4350, 4831sc

Each powder has 5 diffent charge weights working up to max.

Do I shoot these to see which powder/powder weight works best, then adjust seating depth? Or am I looking at this backwords?

 

[country888]

Re: Tips for Loading VLD's in the 25/06

Since you already have them loaded, i would shoot them & see how they group then take the best group & adjust seating depth.

 

[country888]

Re: Tips for Loading VLD's in the 25/06

Loaded up some 115gn vld's last night. Will test soon!