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Suppressors Titanium Suppressors & Heat

O

oubeta

Sergeant
Full Member
Minuteman
Nov 2, 2003
536
8
Edmond, Oklahoma
#1
I was looking into getting a Thunderbeast can for my .308 for my bolt gun.
I called them and we got to talking about using it on a semi and he said that it wouldn't be a good idea unless I was 'shooting it like a bolt gun'.
He said they are 'limited semi auto rated'. I guess it 'sandblasts' the baffles and the titanium doesn't hold up well to extreme heat produced by the semi autos.
I never thought that TI would not handle the heat well.

I really want a lightweight suppressor I can use on both my bolt gun and my semi autos. I guess the safest bet would be to go with a steel one.
Just an FYI on what the guys at Thunderbeast told me yesterday about their TI cans.
 
#4
Re: Titanium Suppressors & Heat

..



Titanium and High Heat...Ok, so we can put this one to bed. From here: http://www.awcsystech.com/news/awcs-thor-technology-delivered-to-the-us-marines/

===========================================================================================
<span style="font-weight: bold">AWC Silencers T.H.O.R. technology delivered to the U.S. Marine Corps </span>

November 29, 2010

AWC Systems Technology will showcase a number of their newest products at Shot Show 2011 in Las Vegas. Included will be the new T.H.O.R. (Thermal High Order Radiant) advanced combat suppressors. T.H.O.R. suppressor technology is constructed out of 100% titanium components, 360 degree ultra deep penetration welding, and an envelope machine out of U.S. formed solid Titanium, . AWCs T.H.O.R. technology specifically addresses one of the most important technical limitations of modern suppressor design, high heat dissipation. Simply put, there is no stronger, quieter, accurate or more technically advanced suppressor on the market. Currently being delivered to the U.S. Marines for use on .223 platforms (including the M249), AWC once again sets the standard for advanced design, fabrication and performance. AWC “America’s Silent Majority.”

==========================================================================================

THORBW.jpg
 
#6
Re: Titanium Suppressors & Heat

..

Nope...But I just really enjoy the shit out of any shop that will take a block of Ti and cut out more Ti than most shops leave in it. Anybody that will take more time to do the exterior coatings then the time most shops put into the whole can is just plain crazy enough to keep my attention. I've been buying their products for longer than many have been alive. In the end we all have our favorites, I just like mine to be way out there. And, I am not alone.





..
 
#7
Re: Titanium Suppressors & Heat

RT-

Am I reading the blurbs right? They take a piece of SOLID Ti and turn 95% of it into chips?

Why not use DOM tubing instead? Still completely seamless but it's near net shape and quiet easily welded to the same strength at the weld interface.

DOM also has some nice features for the crystal grain orientation over billet material too.
 
#8
Re: Titanium Suppressors & Heat

..

Bohem, now that is a great question. The answer has a number of facets. Neither the internal, nor external surfacing is a constant linear profile. End cap strength for high volume fire no longer becomes an issue as it is monolithic. Same for the thread fixture armature. Welding areas are provided required material depth. Heat sink technology can be employed. Frequency dampening at temp at the critical baffle to envelope interface. U.S.A. QC for all materials, More.

I just wanted to answer the question as to the appropriateness of Ti and high heat. Does everybody need this? Hell no.
 
#9
Re: Titanium Suppressors & Heat

I was envisioning them using solid bar stock, I'm probably wrong in that assumption... with the cost of Ti supplies in general I'd be looking for every way to get the raw material cost down while still after the features that you posted.

Monolithic rear cap is awefully nice if it's made from a piece of solid... that's for sure.

I'm sure whatever guys run this thing on the M249 like the poster claims are appreciative of the heat dissipation. I'm looking forward to seeing it at SHOT first hand.
 
#14
Re: Titanium Suppressors & Heat

Hey,

Did you talk to Shane on the phone? I was just talking to him and he doesn't remember saying "shoot it like a bolt gun". If he did, it's not how we usually characterize it anyway. On the 30P-1, a rule of thumb is to imagine your typical 3-Gun stage-- that is about the limit the 30P-1 was designed for.

Read through the other thread (link in post #2) to get some more information. The 30P-1 is a very strong can, but it was not designed for mag dump after mag dump after mag dump. For comparison, our 223P-1 is good for the vast majority of semi-auto and some full-auto, but we went and designed the 223A specifically for unlimited full-auto applications on uppers as short as 7". I mention this because there is a pretty big difference between building something out of Ti or Ti/SS, and something out of SS or SS/Inconel.

We did test the original .30 cal design (the 30P) to failure on a M240 belt-fed .308. It survived for a long time considering it was designed for precision rifles. The 30P-1 is even stronger.

Anyway, the material properties of Ti as a function of temperature are well known and anybody can look them up. I encourage anyone interested in Ti suppressor applications to check out the material data.

Also, BTW, the comment about taking bar stock and cutting most of it away is common for almost any modern suppressor with non-stamped internals.

hope this helps
Zak
 
#16
Re: Titanium Suppressors & Heat

Any of you have a semi auto 308 in CO want to do some testing with me. I think I can come up with a 30P-1 to abuse. PM or email me if you want to after SHOT.
 
#17
Re: Titanium Suppressors & Heat

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RayDog</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Any of you have a semi auto 308 in CO want to do some testing with me. I think I can come up with a 30P-1 to abuse. PM or email me if you want to after SHOT. </div></div>

Ray I have several 308 semi's we can abuse, along with your can...
smile.gif
 
#18
Re: Titanium Suppressors & Heat

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RayDog</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Any of you have a semi auto 308 in CO want to do some testing with me. I think I can come up with a 30P-1 to abuse. PM or email me if you want to after SHOT. </div></div>

Ray I have several 308 semi's we can abuse, along with your can...
smile.gif
</div></div>

I hope there will be a video of this.
smile.gif
 
#24
Re: Titanium Suppressors & Heat

Its a shame they put all that time and money into their beautiful suppressors, all that time and money upgrading their old website to the vastly improved new one, and still use a poor marketing posters/banners/graphic like this to showcase a beautiful suppressor.

If an inexperienced customer or some random person online made it for fun, that's fine.
If AWC payed a design team for it, or if a marketing director approved it...they've got some issues on the business end.
 
#27
Re: Titanium Suppressors & Heat

..

These guys never pre-announce, they are kinda heads down busy folk. 5.56 starting shipping about two months ago. I was told there will be part of the 7.62 run at SHOT. When they have a breakthough it usually goes out throughout their whole line. I remember back in the late 80's when the first football shaped gas redirect bezzels were cut and people would look down an AWC can and say "what the hell is that?", years later looking down just about any quality big caliber can made by anybody and it's a "well looky there!" kinda of deal.

Here is a shot of the 6.8 T.H.O.R. from last fall.

YY3.jpg
 
#30
Re: Titanium Suppressors & Heat

The THOR cans look great.
I have read great things about the 'beat' cans,
I just don't want to have to worry about if my suppressor is getting too hot.
It would be great for an SPR type rifle, but I don't think you would want to use it for a carbine class. Even after one quick mag dump the suppressors are really hot.
 
#32
Re: Titanium Suppressors & Heat

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RollingThunder51</div><div class="ubbcode-body">..

Sounds like fun, bring a good camera and something belt fed...

.

</div></div>

This is pretty typical of the industry. Make empty statements of fact- don't back them up by any proof except claims- then expect the competitor to compete against a more or less imaginary expectation and fall short.

Titanium is not as massive as stainless steel or inconel, so products built with it have more surface area to weight. This means they heat and cool faster than stainless or inconel.

I don't see where that makes them ideal for use with belt-fed machine guns or military applications. At night metal begins to glow red at 760F in the dark. A 14 ounce 5.56 can could hit that temp in 45-60 rounds. Soldiers won't want to be running around with a glowing weapon during a firefight at night. I don't see where the military application of the belt fed titanium can is.
 
#33
Re: Titanium Suppressors & Heat

My goodness man, you nailed it. And with that, feed the dogs, put a log on the fire and its Goodnight Eileen.

Look, belt fed anything begins to glow...ANYTHING. Regardless of material, regardless of make, regardless of whether you have a can on it our not....your glowing. Your missing it completely. For 23 years these same folks having been selling sold steel and stainless steel (Raiders) to the U.S. Army. Navy, Marines, Air Force every single branch. Glowing red, heating up and cooling down. The issue isn't stopping or delaying the heat, aint going to happen. You take a new gen SS Raider and throw one mag, one mag, through it and you can't touch the can. It is not about the cans getting hot or stopping the glowing. If your worried about being picked up with thermal? Better use a knife. Hot is hot.

So what is it about?

Getting the lightest, strongest, fastest cooling and best suppressing (both sound and flash) that can be had. Ti is here and, when properly designed and built to the highest production standards, its going to drag everything along with it kicking and screaming. Getting Ti to take on the right construction integrity is how one acheives the frequency attributes that have thus far been missing. The final strength and tolerance accuracy is what it is all about. Now get all that and light weight and rapid cooling, that is what it is all about. Read the press release, this is a new emerging standard and the people buying them aren't beginners.
 
#35
Re: Titanium Suppressors & Heat

I'm interested to see how this turns out.
It looks like Thunderbeast cans are top quality and they have great customer service. They were more than eager to talk with me and answer my questions when I called. They weren't in a hurry to get me off the phone like the guys at AAC.
My only concern is having premature wear on the baffles from getting it too hot in a carbine match.
 
#36
Re: Titanium Suppressors & Heat

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RollingThunder51</div><div class="ubbcode-body">My goodness man, you nailed it. And with that, feed the dogs, put a log on the fire and its Goodnight Eileen.

Look, belt fed anything begins to glow...ANYTHING. Regardless of material, regardless of make, regardless of whether you have a can on it our not....your glowing. Your missing it completely. For 23 years these same folks having been selling sold steel and stainless steel (Raiders) to the U.S. Army. Navy, Marines, Air Force every single branch. Glowing red, heating up and cooling down. The issue isn't stopping or delaying the heat, aint going to happen. You take a new gen SS Raider and throw one mag, one mag, through it and you can't touch the can. It is not about the cans getting hot or stopping the glowing. If your worried about being picked up with thermal? Better use a knife. Hot is hot.

So what is it about?

Getting the lightest, strongest, fastest cooling and best suppressing (both sound and flash) that can be had. Ti is here and, when properly designed and built to the highest production standards, its going to drag everything along with it kicking and screaming. Getting Ti to take on the right construction integrity is how one acheives the frequency attributes that have thus far been missing. The final strength and tolerance accuracy is what it is all about. Now get all that and light weight and rapid cooling, that is what it is all about. Read the press release, this is a new emerging standard and the people buying them aren't beginners.
</div></div>

To start the point is that "belt fed rated" could mean 50 rounds in one burst. The three words "belt fed rated" are nearly meaningless due to the broad variety of meanings they could imply. Belt fed rated is not a known fire schedule. In my mind those words should imply 400 full auto rounds at cyclic ROF prior to barrel change.

Titanium is a generic term like steel or aluminum. It doesn't identify a particular material, but points to a variety of materials with a wide array of properties.

We don't know the Fire schedule, the intended weapon, the material composition of the AWC suppressor, internal pressure produced by that intended host weapon, or the yield strength of that unknown suppressor material at temperatures to 1700F, so actual durability is totally up in the air. What we do know is that several titanium alloys have recommended max operating temperatures of under 800F

I don't think TBA should torture test anything prior to AWC laying its cards on the table. Anything else would be a great way to set yourself up for a lose lose situation where any result can be counterclaimed inferior.
 
#37
Re: Titanium Suppressors & Heat

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: oubeta</div><div class="ubbcode-body">It looks like Thunderbeast cans are top quality and they have great customer service. </div></div>

The ThunderBeast guys are very helpful and great to deal with, and they have top notch stuff as well.
 
#38
Re: Titanium Suppressors & Heat

..


Ah no....notes revealed tagged barrels stipulating sustained fire was 100 rounds continuous. Revealed an initial 7 degree rise over ambient for every 5.56 fired and glow occured at approx 110 from dead cool. This isn't the first gen of Raiders to go through this and with current shipments, it won't be the last. Serious business this, it can't be done without more than a spoonful of thoughtful consideration. These cans aren't cut out of import tubes, but specially formulated and U.S. formed solids. Not for everyone, not needed by many. But for those that they are for and needed, none better.
 
#39
Re: Titanium Suppressors & Heat

Rolling Thunder-- are you talking about 5.56 now? Because I'm pretty sure the question (from 11B-B4) was about .308. But your last post refers to stats from a 5.56 test.

To be clear, the idea behind the test with Lowlight was to wring out a 30P-1 with a realistic semi-auto firing schedule and have a third-party (him) to report on it, if he wants to. This was a direct result of this thread and this one http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2285331#Post2285331
where there were some questions how applicable the 30P-1 was to semi-auto .308's.

We don't have anything "to prove" with the 30P-1 and full-auto-- we designed it for precision long-range shooters - to be the preferred match-winning can - and have had no requests for a full-auto .308 suppressor.

But hey, if all we need to do is take 100 rounds of 7.62x51 from a belt-fed to be "full-auto" rated, we might discover there's another full-auto rated .308 suppressor on the market already. I'll let you know.
wink.gif
 
#40
Re: Titanium Suppressors & Heat

..

Zak, appreciate that, I was responding to 11B comments. He is phasing out his .308 until he reads his book and comes back out with his can on .308, then we will talk Ti .308. I have mentioned for quite some time that this industry is about to take a leap and some are pissed that a lathe and hydraulic cylinder stock isn't going to be enough. That has always been the issue.

I think I understand what LL is asking for and I understand that ThunderBeast makes a fine .30 can. This thread? This <span style="font-weight: bold">thread Zak is about Ti and heat and THAT is why I posted this unit out. </span> If it was only about .30 cans and low heat schedule, I would have amswered differently. I am defending Ti here and trying to "put this one to bed."

Zak I know your can, you know your can. We both know your can. One look down your tube and it was a looky there moment. Your using good technology and building them well. No issue. I also know that you can't get there from where you are starting without some serious work if FA .308 is where that can wants to go. My guess is that you know that too. Ti and heat? THOR can take it, and in doing so sounds very different because of the new structure and techniques. Its all good, its the sign of a healthy industry. That Zak is what I was trying to let you know.
smile.gif
 
#41
Re: Titanium Suppressors & Heat

Well, I brought that up because to his question about firing schedules, you said
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
..notes revealed tagged barrels stipulating sustained fire was 100 rounds continuous. Revealed an initial 7 degree rise over ambient for every 5.56 fired and glow occured at approx 110 from dead cool. <span style="text-decoration: underline">This isn't the first gen of Raiders to go through this</span> and with current shipments</div></div>
According to the AWC web site, the Raider 5.56mm is still a steel/24 oz suppressor, hence my question about how it was relevant.

Also still wondering what you/AWC consider full-auto rated. One might conclude it's 100 rounds continuous from that same post.


 
#42
Re: Titanium Suppressors & Heat

..

Zak, not quite following you, but no problem. I think I get it. THOR is, I believe, to be applied to their whole line, just like gas direction bezzels were, or 360 weld was, etc. etc. Raider continues but with THOR internals. My guess is you will see THOR in their website pronto, right now they are, I'm sure, trying to keep up with their current orders and preparing for this week at SHOT. Here we can see THOR applied to the TunderTrap line. This is in production too and being introduced at SHOT this week. Still reads TT.

THOR009.jpg


As another example, they are going full 360 weld titanium .22 first and second stage, full Ti exterior and ends. They have made FA .22 since the '80s. But not with the high order internals. This new can swaps out(Ti) and allows for cleaning for those that can't help but shoot crap. But does so with a new design allowing for access without tolerance reduction. This can is also at SHOT and also not in their catalog until it gets to the dealers.

lighterVALKYRIELOGO.jpg


As to what constitutes the tesing parameters? Back 20 years ago it was 20 round burst, than 50, than 75 and then 100, whatever the barrel recommendation for "sustained" was/is. But there is more here than just being able to cool as fast as possible for the next go.

Ti and heat? New Ti, new designs, new construction techniques, new progress. Good for them, good for you, good for quiet.
 
#43
Re: Titanium Suppressors & Heat

The way I read it, 11B-B4 asked about F/A firing schedules in the context of full auto and titanium, and you replied with something about the Raider ("This isn't the first gen of Raiders to go through..."). But the Raider is presently a steel suppressor, is it not?

That was the point of my comment. But perhaps you were reading different emphasis or responding to a different line of reasoning than the one I was.
 
#44
Re: Titanium Suppressors & Heat

Now I got it Zax, thanks...

Raider has been FA rated through steel and ss.

If one orders a Raider it is titanium or SS, your choice.

Want a Ti THOR Raider in 5.56? Order it.
Want a Ti THOR Raider in 6.8? Order it.
Want a ti THOR TT in 7.62, order it.
Etc. etc.

Want it in SS order it quickly as close to half a million bucks was spent to move their line forward to 100% Deep pentration welded Ti block cut THOR. Not vaporware, hard poducts.

From 2010, full titanium THOR Raider (serial number is masked). This one was in 6.8, the 5.56 were shipping out as per announcement. I posted this very can months and months ago right here. I told folks...services first, then civilians in the New Year. Hello 2011.

THOR.jpg



 
#47
Re: Titanium Suppressors & Heat

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RollingThunder51</div><div class="ubbcode-body">..

Zak, appreciate that, I was responding to 11B comments. He is phasing out his .308 until he reads his book and comes back out with his can on .308, then we will talk Ti .308. I have mentioned for quite some time that this industry is about to take a leap and some are pissed that a lathe and hydraulic cylinder stock isn't going to be enough. That has always been the issue.
</div></div>
Our .30caliber suppressor worked fine. People just didn't want to buy it for what it was worth. A customer just mentioned his first impression of shooting one and one of the comments was groups shrunk 50% from the YHM .308 can it replaced.

We didn't drop it to read a book, we dropped it because it wasn't popular. Probably because people care more about how suppressors look on their guns than how well they work. That's why you see flutes, grooves, ball mill impressions, steps knurls and all kinds of appearance features on cans.

<span style="font-weight: bold">As far as 100 rounds sustained... That isn't belt fed rated in the military sense. A std saw belt is 200 rounds.


That was my initial opinion (titanium is a great material for precision rifle cans- not so much for machine guns). The weight you lose has a cost- there are no free lunches in physics. </span>
 
#49
Re: Titanium Suppressors & Heat

..

"We didn't drop it to read a book, we dropped it because it wasn't popular. Probably because people care more about how suppressors look on their guns than how well they work. That's why you see flutes, grooves, ball mill impressions, steps knurls and all kinds of appearance features on cans."

I would disagree, and depending on the maker, strongly. Most customers are interested in the suppression value for both sound and flash and resulting accuracy. Construction integrity, life of service and all things having to do with POI are equally important. The consummer is becoming vastly more informed, primarily because of discussions on boards like SH. Those features that you observe and are so quick to catagorize as worthless manifestation of marketing savants, aren't. They reflect something all together different, and you have missed it. Whether they are there for complex reasons as deliberate heat sink tech or to facilitate the additonal thickness required for non linear internal surface mounting features in preperation for ultra deep welding or to account for grip, or rotational timing (POI) or as simple as thickness provided to strengthen areas, well, they are anything other than benign. I would go further, we are entering the Golden Age of suppression and these external features will become increasingly common. Advanced materials and manufacturing is allowing producers to attend to features that would require too many set-ups and changeovers and to do this while maintaining tolerances simple unheard of in prior runs. Cans have always had the potential to help accuracy, now more than ever, they will.

You placed the following in BOLD, why I have no idea.

"As far as 100 rounds sustained... That isn't belt fed rated in the military sense. A std saw belt is 200 rounds."

Ah, no. The recommended sustained fire for that barrel is tagged as it leaves the factory and is currently "100." You have confused accessible round count with recommended sustained fire limits. Full belts is not the request. Having said that, those very same rounds are not to be fired continuously but to be fired quickly. There are a number of houses that currently provide cans that are capable of sustaining this. Few that are able to keep their integrity while doing it often. Damn few that can do it and weigh less, cool faster, and provide superb accuracy. You are of a mind that Ti based solutions are not amoung them, you are wrong.

Now you and I can keep going back and forth. It serves no purpose if the idea is to suggest that physics is what is keeping Ti from doing its job. If you abide by the idea that "the weight you loose has a cost," well I would hate to tell you about what is coming in terms of ceramics and AFM. The "weight you loose" is what will move us all forward...at least those that are open and willing to understand the newly applied sciences, materials and manufacturing techniques.

Best of luck.


 
#50
Re: Titanium Suppressors & Heat

OK,
If anyone else was wondering, the cans can be had in either color. I ordered one for .223 and .308 223's are in stock and .308 is about 6-8 weeks out.
 
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