Re: to go 260 remington, or stick with 308
So how does energy not mean lethality?
So how does energy not mean lethality?
- Thread starter SgtMayhem
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Re: to go 260 remington, or stick with 308
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Even though the .260 carries more energy, .308 kicks it ass when it comes to lethality.</div></div>
Why? How? Because of what, given that there are all kinds of bullet designs available in 260? <span style="font-style: italic">Don't have the book at hand, can't check what it says...</span>
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">So how does energy not mean lethality?</div></div>
I would imagine that bullet weight/size and design should come into play as well, not just its velocity/energy. But still, say 140gr flying at 2000+fps should be lethal <span style="font-style: italic">enough</span>, whatever "enough" means...?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Even though the .260 carries more energy, .308 kicks it ass when it comes to lethality.</div></div>
Why? How? Because of what, given that there are all kinds of bullet designs available in 260? <span style="font-style: italic">Don't have the book at hand, can't check what it says...</span>
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">So how does energy not mean lethality?</div></div>
I would imagine that bullet weight/size and design should come into play as well, not just its velocity/energy. But still, say 140gr flying at 2000+fps should be lethal <span style="font-style: italic">enough</span>, whatever "enough" means...?
Re: to go 260 remington, or stick with 308
It doesn't go into specifics on different bullets. It categorized bullets by weight and how effective they are. My personal opinion is that it partially has to do with a projectiles penetration value and how they transfer energy into a target. A 6.5 is much more likely fly through a target than a .30 cal.
It doesn't go into specifics on different bullets. It categorized bullets by weight and how effective they are. My personal opinion is that it partially has to do with a projectiles penetration value and how they transfer energy into a target. A 6.5 is much more likely fly through a target than a .30 cal.
Re: to go 260 remington, or stick with 308
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: mohawk3A</div><div class="ubbcode-body">My personal opinion is that it partially has to do with a projectiles penetration value and how they transfer energy into a target.</div></div>
But what does this value depend on? Projectile weight, size, shape, design (SP, HP, tungsten core, etc), speed - anything else?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: mohawk3A</div><div class="ubbcode-body">A 6.5 is much more likely fly through a target than a .30 cal.</div></div>
Why is it related to caliber instead of the bullet design?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: mohawk3A</div><div class="ubbcode-body">My personal opinion is that it partially has to do with a projectiles penetration value and how they transfer energy into a target.</div></div>
But what does this value depend on? Projectile weight, size, shape, design (SP, HP, tungsten core, etc), speed - anything else?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: mohawk3A</div><div class="ubbcode-body">A 6.5 is much more likely fly through a target than a .30 cal.</div></div>
Why is it related to caliber instead of the bullet design?
Re: to go 260 remington, or stick with 308
Dead *is* dead...
Dead *is* dead...
Re: to go 260 remington, or stick with 308
My opinion is based off the size shape and design. Do you think .30cal bullets have better penetration than .264's
Probably because in terms of leathality, cartridge/caliber information is more useful to the average person
Maybe people would rather know how 180g bullets out of. A .308 win stack up against 140g bullets out of their .260, than how meplat size and secant vs. tangent ogive effect the likelihood of taking down big game.
My opinion is based off the size shape and design. Do you think .30cal bullets have better penetration than .264's
Probably because in terms of leathality, cartridge/caliber information is more useful to the average person
Maybe people would rather know how 180g bullets out of. A .308 win stack up against 140g bullets out of their .260, than how meplat size and secant vs. tangent ogive effect the likelihood of taking down big game.
Re: to go 260 remington, or stick with 308
I have no scientific evedence for my hypothesis, and I could be wrong, but I figure the reason the .308 is likely (or precieved to be) more lethal than the .260 is the same reason the .45acp is likely (or precieved to be) more lethal than a .357 mag or a spear is more lethal than an arrow. Even though they deliver similar energy to the target, one of them isn't dependant on expantion or bullet design, it just makes bigger damn holes to begin with!
I have no scientific evedence for my hypothesis, and I could be wrong, but I figure the reason the .308 is likely (or precieved to be) more lethal than the .260 is the same reason the .45acp is likely (or precieved to be) more lethal than a .357 mag or a spear is more lethal than an arrow. Even though they deliver similar energy to the target, one of them isn't dependant on expantion or bullet design, it just makes bigger damn holes to begin with!
Re: to go 260 remington, or stick with 308
I would go .260 all the way. The sectional density on a 6.5 140 A-max is .287. The sectional Density on a .308 155 A-max is .233 and .268 for the 178. The thinner core and longer bullet gives the 6.5 the upper hand on sectinal density. Also, I did out of curiosity take a fairly thick 2.5 inch phone book and duck taped it together and placed it against a rock at 500 yards to shoot with my .260 and see it the A-max would blow up or blow through. Well, it blew threw and broke about an 8 lb rock in half. So the .260 went black bear hunting.
It's all personal preferance but I like the .260
Good Luck,
JamieD
______________________________
Jamie Dodson
814-262-7994
Wolf Precision
AI Stocks and Accessories
I would go .260 all the way. The sectional density on a 6.5 140 A-max is .287. The sectional Density on a .308 155 A-max is .233 and .268 for the 178. The thinner core and longer bullet gives the 6.5 the upper hand on sectinal density. Also, I did out of curiosity take a fairly thick 2.5 inch phone book and duck taped it together and placed it against a rock at 500 yards to shoot with my .260 and see it the A-max would blow up or blow through. Well, it blew threw and broke about an 8 lb rock in half. So the .260 went black bear hunting.
It's all personal preferance but I like the .260
Good Luck,
JamieD
______________________________
Jamie Dodson
814-262-7994
Wolf Precision
AI Stocks and Accessories
Re: to go 260 remington, or stick with 308
I'm going to call bullshit on all of the talk here on killing.
Anybody that suggests a .308 is a better killer or a .260 is a better killer needs to dig a bit deeper.
It comes down to this:
Proper bullet design in the proper velocity window.
Sometimes a .308 is a better killer. Sometimes a .260 is a better killer. What matters is the bullet construction.
I have killed thousands of animals. I've seen animals shot with a .300 Winchester Magnum take off and never be recovered. Meanwhile, I've seen .223 Rem (YES! .223!) drop game in their tracks. Why? Bullet construction.
Sometimes people use a bullet made to function in a specific velocity window. Sometimes a cartridge is pushing well beyond it at a given range. A .300 Winchester Magnum, for instance, may push a BT bullet too fast at short range, causing over-expansion and a superficial wound.
My first time hunting long range with my 6.5-284 I shot a deer at about 500 yards with a 140 gr Nosler Partition which is said by old-timers to be the best hunting bullet on the planet. I made a perfect shot in the vitals, yet the whitetail jerked and took off. After giving it an hour, I walked down to the field, found just a small amount of blood. The next morning I saw the same deer as if he had been uninjured.
I decided to try the Berger VLD to hunt with after having lost a deer with the legendary Partition. I had the opportunity to take two deer the next day at 550+. The first deer dropped in her tracks with a well-placed shot. The second deer, dropped in her tracks with a well-placed shot.
Why had this happened? The Partition fell below its intended velocity window and did not expand. Why did the VLD work? The bullet design retained more velocity and because of the shape, expanded causing the hearts to be destroyed.
And before you say "your 6.5-284 is not a .308", remember, the 6.5 140 gr Partition is a .287 SD and the .308" 180 gr is a .271 SD. The 6.5mm is running 2950 from a 6.5-284, while the 180 Partition runs 2550 from a .308 Win.
The key to good killing with a given round is to use the right bullet for the right range. Figure out where a given bullet fits the velocity window for the ranges you're going to use your cartridge.
I'm going to call bullshit on all of the talk here on killing.
Anybody that suggests a .308 is a better killer or a .260 is a better killer needs to dig a bit deeper.
It comes down to this:
Proper bullet design in the proper velocity window.
Sometimes a .308 is a better killer. Sometimes a .260 is a better killer. What matters is the bullet construction.
I have killed thousands of animals. I've seen animals shot with a .300 Winchester Magnum take off and never be recovered. Meanwhile, I've seen .223 Rem (YES! .223!) drop game in their tracks. Why? Bullet construction.
Sometimes people use a bullet made to function in a specific velocity window. Sometimes a cartridge is pushing well beyond it at a given range. A .300 Winchester Magnum, for instance, may push a BT bullet too fast at short range, causing over-expansion and a superficial wound.
My first time hunting long range with my 6.5-284 I shot a deer at about 500 yards with a 140 gr Nosler Partition which is said by old-timers to be the best hunting bullet on the planet. I made a perfect shot in the vitals, yet the whitetail jerked and took off. After giving it an hour, I walked down to the field, found just a small amount of blood. The next morning I saw the same deer as if he had been uninjured.
I decided to try the Berger VLD to hunt with after having lost a deer with the legendary Partition. I had the opportunity to take two deer the next day at 550+. The first deer dropped in her tracks with a well-placed shot. The second deer, dropped in her tracks with a well-placed shot.
Why had this happened? The Partition fell below its intended velocity window and did not expand. Why did the VLD work? The bullet design retained more velocity and because of the shape, expanded causing the hearts to be destroyed.
And before you say "your 6.5-284 is not a .308", remember, the 6.5 140 gr Partition is a .287 SD and the .308" 180 gr is a .271 SD. The 6.5mm is running 2950 from a 6.5-284, while the 180 Partition runs 2550 from a .308 Win.
The key to good killing with a given round is to use the right bullet for the right range. Figure out where a given bullet fits the velocity window for the ranges you're going to use your cartridge.
Re: to go 260 remington, or stick with 308
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Figure out where a given bullet fits the velocity window for the ranges you're going to use your cartridge.</div></div>
This is a great point.
But my question is - how does one find out (short of experimenting
) the designed velocity range for a given bullet?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Figure out where a given bullet fits the velocity window for the ranges you're going to use your cartridge.</div></div>
This is a great point.
But my question is - how does one find out (short of experimenting
Re: to go 260 remington, or stick with 308
Most manufacturers of "hunting" bullets will tell you what velocities they are designed to work at. You can then look at load data in manuals to get an approximate MV and use your ballistic calculator to determine approximately how far the bullet will travel within that velocity window.
Most manufacturers of "hunting" bullets will tell you what velocities they are designed to work at. You can then look at load data in manuals to get an approximate MV and use your ballistic calculator to determine approximately how far the bullet will travel within that velocity window.
Re: to go 260 remington, or stick with 308
The 6.5x284 is a proven barrel eater. The 260 is a step slower with less powder. It shoots very similar amts of powder as the 308 (pretty much the same piece of brass)but down a narrower bore, it seems to make sense that the barrel life would be a bit less than the 308. Maybe a bit more overbore than the 308.
I recent went through the same problem that you are going through. I felt the 6.5 bullet would fight the wind much better than the 308 so I stuck with the 260. Recoil is negligible, it's easy to load for, good bullet selection and Lapua make brass for it now. Win win win.
I find the gun really shines with 120-130g bullets and mv between 2800-2900. I was getting closer to 3000 but I have a new barrel which is slower and I find the lapua 260 brass is a bit slower. That really doesnt make a whole lot of sense but what I really think is the problem is that I don't have enought neck tension to drive up the pressure. I could change my load but right now at 100y the gun shoots in the .3's all day every day. (with the same load of course
)
The 6.5x284 is a proven barrel eater. The 260 is a step slower with less powder. It shoots very similar amts of powder as the 308 (pretty much the same piece of brass)but down a narrower bore, it seems to make sense that the barrel life would be a bit less than the 308. Maybe a bit more overbore than the 308.
I recent went through the same problem that you are going through. I felt the 6.5 bullet would fight the wind much better than the 308 so I stuck with the 260. Recoil is negligible, it's easy to load for, good bullet selection and Lapua make brass for it now. Win win win.
I find the gun really shines with 120-130g bullets and mv between 2800-2900. I was getting closer to 3000 but I have a new barrel which is slower and I find the lapua 260 brass is a bit slower. That really doesnt make a whole lot of sense but what I really think is the problem is that I don't have enought neck tension to drive up the pressure. I could change my load but right now at 100y the gun shoots in the .3's all day every day. (with the same load of course
Re: to go 260 remington, or stick with 308
This all seems interesting. I picked up a .260 because "All the cool kids were doing it" and I got tired of beating myself to death with 208's in the .308 to hit long range steel when my buddies and I go out for a day. The average day is 200-300 rounds from the .308, 200 from the .338 Lapua and maybe 500 from the .223.
Changing to the .260, having only used it on two trips, seemed to be a lot more pleasant with down range results being at least as consistent.
As previously mentioned, it's doubtful I'll get rid of the .308, as it does what it does and in a pinch ammunition is likely to be easily had. The .260 does the job with a little less punishment to this shooter and that alone makes it worth having around. It terms of killing power, I'm only concerned with killing my shoulder and the terminal effects of the stock into my body is a pleasant change.
If someone mentioned it I missed it, there is a a lot to be said for less recoil. In matches I'm WAY better with my .223 than the .308 (kinda hoping the .260 will strike a nice medium here and by adding a can make it awesome). Which one could argue would increase the lethality by making appropriate shot placement more certain.
But then again, Shooting is my golf, I get my food from the store, and if it comes down to it I'll probably get it from other people if necessary or become a herbivore. I see no point in shooting animals that aren't trying to harm me or my family
This all seems interesting. I picked up a .260 because "All the cool kids were doing it" and I got tired of beating myself to death with 208's in the .308 to hit long range steel when my buddies and I go out for a day. The average day is 200-300 rounds from the .308, 200 from the .338 Lapua and maybe 500 from the .223.
Changing to the .260, having only used it on two trips, seemed to be a lot more pleasant with down range results being at least as consistent.
As previously mentioned, it's doubtful I'll get rid of the .308, as it does what it does and in a pinch ammunition is likely to be easily had. The .260 does the job with a little less punishment to this shooter and that alone makes it worth having around. It terms of killing power, I'm only concerned with killing my shoulder and the terminal effects of the stock into my body is a pleasant change.
If someone mentioned it I missed it, there is a a lot to be said for less recoil. In matches I'm WAY better with my .223 than the .308 (kinda hoping the .260 will strike a nice medium here and by adding a can make it awesome). Which one could argue would increase the lethality by making appropriate shot placement more certain.
But then again, Shooting is my golf, I get my food from the store, and if it comes down to it I'll probably get it from other people if necessary or become a herbivore. I see no point in shooting animals that aren't trying to harm me or my family
Re: to go 260 remington, or stick with 308
LOL you'd rather not eat meat than have to kill it yourself? But its ok if somebody else kills it?
LOL you'd rather not eat meat than have to kill it yourself? But its ok if somebody else kills it?
Re: to go 260 remington, or stick with 308
If you already have another rifle in .308 then I say go for it. The .260, to me, is just as versitile as the .308, and a very wise choice. Only reason I suggest it IF you have another .308 is to keep your reloading stuff for the .308 in use as well. Of coarse you can always get another .308 down the road. I prefer to get a rifle with a diffrent chambering, then puchase the dies and materials in opposition to that stuff sitting on a shelf waiting to be used. But thats just personal preference.
If you already have another rifle in .308 then I say go for it. The .260, to me, is just as versitile as the .308, and a very wise choice. Only reason I suggest it IF you have another .308 is to keep your reloading stuff for the .308 in use as well. Of coarse you can always get another .308 down the road. I prefer to get a rifle with a diffrent chambering, then puchase the dies and materials in opposition to that stuff sitting on a shelf waiting to be used. But thats just personal preference.
Re: to go 260 remington, or stick with 308
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: tylerw02</div><div class="ubbcode-body">LOL you'd rather not eat meat than have to kill it yourself? But its ok if somebody else kills it? </div></div>
My "hunting" at 7 was to gut all the deer my uncles and grandfather shot. Same with all the fish, turkeys, squirrels, rabbits, pigs and cows on the farm.
After being thrust into becoming an adolescent butcher, I grew weary of slaughtering creatures, so yeah, that about sums it up.
Sorry to get off topic
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: tylerw02</div><div class="ubbcode-body">LOL you'd rather not eat meat than have to kill it yourself? But its ok if somebody else kills it? </div></div>
My "hunting" at 7 was to gut all the deer my uncles and grandfather shot. Same with all the fish, turkeys, squirrels, rabbits, pigs and cows on the farm.
After being thrust into becoming an adolescent butcher, I grew weary of slaughtering creatures, so yeah, that about sums it up.
Sorry to get off topic
Re: to go 260 remington, or stick with 308
I'm building a 260. I have no doubt in my mind I'll be able to continue smoking deer anywhere between 75 and 700 yards like I've always done with my 308. Just less twisting of the dials and an even greater likelihood of a hit.
I'm building a 260. I have no doubt in my mind I'll be able to continue smoking deer anywhere between 75 and 700 yards like I've always done with my 308. Just less twisting of the dials and an even greater likelihood of a hit.
Re: to go 260 remington, or stick with 308
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Most manufacturers of "hunting" bullets will tell you what velocities they are designed to work at. You can then look at load data in manuals to get an approximate MV and use your ballistic calculator to determine approximately how far the bullet will travel within that velocity window.</div></div>
Well, getting MV from a chrono and velocity decay from a ballistic calculator is not my concern as both are trivially easy ("been there done that").
But I've never seen "design velocity range" advertised for any bullet so far - perhaps I didn't know where to look for it. Could you point me at the source(s) of this data, say for all or any of the following: Barnes, Berger, Hornady, Nosler, Sierra, Speer?
Tnx!
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Most manufacturers of "hunting" bullets will tell you what velocities they are designed to work at. You can then look at load data in manuals to get an approximate MV and use your ballistic calculator to determine approximately how far the bullet will travel within that velocity window.</div></div>
Well, getting MV from a chrono and velocity decay from a ballistic calculator is not my concern as both are trivially easy ("been there done that").
But I've never seen "design velocity range" advertised for any bullet so far - perhaps I didn't know where to look for it. Could you point me at the source(s) of this data, say for all or any of the following: Barnes, Berger, Hornady, Nosler, Sierra, Speer?
Tnx!
Re: to go 260 remington, or stick with 308
[/quote]
its handy for shooting rabbits through fence posts
good point though a 30-06 is to a 308 what the swede is to the 260
personally i think the 338 federal is the way to go, even more WHACK. Seriously though, you would be undergunned with a 6.5 on a Sika, even a 270/308 may not put it on its arse - a lot of the pro's use a 30-06.
I know guys that nut stags with 22-250's (not legal) so you can shoot them with anything, but when it doesn't all go to plan you don't want to chase the f&*^*&rs 3 miles over the hill (then drag it back). Its fine saying put it in the right place but the sad fact is lots of people can't and we all screw it up now and again. Stalkers that have never missed have not done much shooting So if you fling a brick down the range it is more forgiving if you screw up. Not relevant argument on steel or paper - which was my point
why go out with a peeshooter when you can take a bazoooooka [/quote]
In all of your blathering, stop for a momemt and consider this:
W.D.M. Bell killed over 1500 elephants, mostly with a 7x57 and many with a 6.5.
[/quote]
its handy for shooting rabbits through fence posts
good point though a 30-06 is to a 308 what the swede is to the 260
personally i think the 338 federal is the way to go, even more WHACK. Seriously though, you would be undergunned with a 6.5 on a Sika, even a 270/308 may not put it on its arse - a lot of the pro's use a 30-06.
I know guys that nut stags with 22-250's (not legal) so you can shoot them with anything, but when it doesn't all go to plan you don't want to chase the f&*^*&rs 3 miles over the hill (then drag it back). Its fine saying put it in the right place but the sad fact is lots of people can't and we all screw it up now and again. Stalkers that have never missed have not done much shooting So if you fling a brick down the range it is more forgiving if you screw up. Not relevant argument on steel or paper - which was my point
why go out with a peeshooter when you can take a bazoooooka [/quote]
In all of your blathering, stop for a momemt and consider this:
W.D.M. Bell killed over 1500 elephants, mostly with a 7x57 and many with a 6.5.
Re: to go 260 remington, or stick with 308
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: mouse07410</div><div class="ubbcode-body">But I've never seen "design velocity range" advertised for any bullet so far - perhaps I didn't know where to look for it. Could you point me at the source(s) of this data, say for all or any of the following: Barnes, Berger, Hornady, Nosler, Sierra, Speer?</div></div>
Nosler lists minimum & maximum "optimum performance velocities" for their bullets on their website.
http://www.nosler.com/bullets/ballistic-tip.aspx
http://www.nosler.com/Bullets/Partition.aspx
http://www.nosler.com/Bullets/Accubond.aspx
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: mouse07410</div><div class="ubbcode-body">But I've never seen "design velocity range" advertised for any bullet so far - perhaps I didn't know where to look for it. Could you point me at the source(s) of this data, say for all or any of the following: Barnes, Berger, Hornady, Nosler, Sierra, Speer?</div></div>
Nosler lists minimum & maximum "optimum performance velocities" for their bullets on their website.
http://www.nosler.com/bullets/ballistic-tip.aspx
http://www.nosler.com/Bullets/Partition.aspx
http://www.nosler.com/Bullets/Accubond.aspx
Re: to go 260 remington, or stick with 308
Thank you! Great! Nosler provided the range (most of their bullets should be good down to 1800 fps).
I guess other manufacturers don't release this information? On Hornady site I've found nothing...
Thank you! Great! Nosler provided the range (most of their bullets should be good down to 1800 fps).
I guess other manufacturers don't release this information? On Hornady site I've found nothing...
Re: to go 260 remington, or stick with 308
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Nefariousd</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: tylerw02</div><div class="ubbcode-body">LOL you'd rather not eat meat than have to kill it yourself? But its ok if somebody else kills it? </div></div>
My "hunting" at 7 was to gut all the deer my uncles and grandfather shot. Same with all the fish, turkeys, squirrels, rabbits, pigs and cows on the farm.
After being thrust into becoming an adolescent butcher, I grew weary of slaughtering creatures, so yeah, that about sums it up.
Sorry to get off topic </div></div>
I don't even know an inoffensive way to say this. Vagina. That's like saying 'I had to bail hay when I was a kid so now I pay someone to mow my lawn.' Time was a man feeding his family, from a field, stream, or forrest was an enviable trait.
The 260 is a ripping round but versatility and proven lethality on bipedal creatures the 308 wins. If your adding a 260 then forge ahead, but dot rebarrel your only 308 to 260.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Nefariousd</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: tylerw02</div><div class="ubbcode-body">LOL you'd rather not eat meat than have to kill it yourself? But its ok if somebody else kills it? </div></div>
My "hunting" at 7 was to gut all the deer my uncles and grandfather shot. Same with all the fish, turkeys, squirrels, rabbits, pigs and cows on the farm.
After being thrust into becoming an adolescent butcher, I grew weary of slaughtering creatures, so yeah, that about sums it up.
Sorry to get off topic </div></div>
I don't even know an inoffensive way to say this. Vagina. That's like saying 'I had to bail hay when I was a kid so now I pay someone to mow my lawn.' Time was a man feeding his family, from a field, stream, or forrest was an enviable trait.
The 260 is a ripping round but versatility and proven lethality on bipedal creatures the 308 wins. If your adding a 260 then forge ahead, but dot rebarrel your only 308 to 260.
Re: to go 260 remington, or stick with 308
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: fdkay</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
In all of your blathering, stop for a momemt and consider this:
W.D.M. Bell killed over 1500 elephants, mostly with a 7x57 and many with a 6.5.</div></div>
OK
please provide definitive evidence that the 260 is 'better' than a 308 in every way imaginable. That is the essence of the 260 'advocates' argument in this post.
I am calling bullshit
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: fdkay</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
In all of your blathering, stop for a momemt and consider this:
W.D.M. Bell killed over 1500 elephants, mostly with a 7x57 and many with a 6.5.</div></div>
OK
please provide definitive evidence that the 260 is 'better' than a 308 in every way imaginable. That is the essence of the 260 'advocates' argument in this post.
I am calling bullshit
Re: to go 260 remington, or stick with 308
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Chanonry</div><div class="ubbcode-body">please provide definitive evidence that the 260 is 'better' than a 308 in every way imaginable. That is the essence of the 260 'advocates' argument in this post.</div></div>
Its been done multiple times in this thread using factual information and first-hand experience...whether or not you choose to <span style="font-style: italic">believe</span> that factual information is up to you.
Here are some things a 260 <span style="font-style: italic">cannot</span> do better than a 308:
1. Be fired in an unmodified AR10/M1A/M14/M60/Mk.48
2. Be found in every store that sells ammunition in the US
3. Use cheap, widely available milsurp ammo
4. Use heavy (greater than 160gr) and/or 30 caliber bullets
5. Leave bigger holes in a paper target
6. Provide more WHACK
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Chanonry</div><div class="ubbcode-body">please provide definitive evidence that the 260 is 'better' than a 308 in every way imaginable. That is the essence of the 260 'advocates' argument in this post.</div></div>
Its been done multiple times in this thread using factual information and first-hand experience...whether or not you choose to <span style="font-style: italic">believe</span> that factual information is up to you.
Here are some things a 260 <span style="font-style: italic">cannot</span> do better than a 308:
1. Be fired in an unmodified AR10/M1A/M14/M60/Mk.48
2. Be found in every store that sells ammunition in the US
3. Use cheap, widely available milsurp ammo
4. Use heavy (greater than 160gr) and/or 30 caliber bullets
5. Leave bigger holes in a paper target
6. Provide more WHACK
Re: to go 260 remington, or stick with 308
I gotta ask, just cant help it:
To those that feel a 308 has more lethality, please paint a scenario where you have a 260 in your hands, are about to take a shot, and then think "ooooh, I'm not sure Ive got enough firepower here - but otherwise WOULDN'T think that if you had a 308 in your hands.
I gotta ask, just cant help it:
To those that feel a 308 has more lethality, please paint a scenario where you have a 260 in your hands, are about to take a shot, and then think "ooooh, I'm not sure Ive got enough firepower here - but otherwise WOULDN'T think that if you had a 308 in your hands.
Re: to go 260 remington, or stick with 308
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Grimm17</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I don't even know an inoffensive way to say this. Vagina. That's like saying 'I had to bail hay when I was a kid so now I pay someone to mow my lawn.'</div></div>
I don't know how inoffensively and in a non-condescending way explain to a person who doesn't seem to get it that it is perfectly normal to pay somebody to do work that you don't want to do yourself (<span style="font-style: italic">for many reasons, including lack of skills, lack of desire, or lack of time - having better things to do</span>) but want/need done nonetheless.
@Chanonry, one real advantage of 308 is better barrel life. And it's less finicky with loads (though 260 Rem isn't too finicky either). Another advantage is lower cost and greater availability of supplies - decent brass and decent bullets (and milsurp, if you don't much care to hit what you're shooting at ). Not sure, but it probably is easier/cheaper to find a good "beginner" precision rifle in 308 Win than in 260 Rem. Finally - yes, argument (6) holds: sometimes you do need more whack than 260 Rem provides (<span style="font-style: italic">some would argue that for those cases there are 300WM and 338LM</span>).
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Grimm17</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I don't even know an inoffensive way to say this. Vagina. That's like saying 'I had to bail hay when I was a kid so now I pay someone to mow my lawn.'</div></div>
I don't know how inoffensively and in a non-condescending way explain to a person who doesn't seem to get it that it is perfectly normal to pay somebody to do work that you don't want to do yourself (<span style="font-style: italic">for many reasons, including lack of skills, lack of desire, or lack of time - having better things to do</span>) but want/need done nonetheless.
@Chanonry, one real advantage of 308 is better barrel life. And it's less finicky with loads (though 260 Rem isn't too finicky either). Another advantage is lower cost and greater availability of supplies - decent brass and decent bullets (and milsurp, if you don't much care to hit what you're shooting at
Re: to go 260 remington, or stick with 308
Turbo, I'll play on this one:
Say an angry bear is headed towards me 50 yds and closing. I would feel a little under gunned with my .260 slinging 123gr or 139gr Scenars. I would much rather have my .308 loaded with 175-190gr SMKs or 208gr AMAXs for that one shot.
But if I'm making a shot on a long range, say 900 to 1100 yds, I'll take my .260 all day long.
That being said, I believe the 6.5mm "elephant killer" was a 160gr solid copper roundnose from the 6.5x55 - better nerves than mine!
Turbo, I'll play on this one:
Say an angry bear is headed towards me 50 yds and closing. I would feel a little under gunned with my .260 slinging 123gr or 139gr Scenars. I would much rather have my .308 loaded with 175-190gr SMKs or 208gr AMAXs for that one shot.
But if I'm making a shot on a long range, say 900 to 1100 yds, I'll take my .260 all day long.
That being said, I believe the 6.5mm "elephant killer" was a 160gr solid copper roundnose from the 6.5x55 - better nerves than mine!
Re: to go 260 remington, or stick with 308
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Grimm17</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
I don't even know an inoffensive way to say this. Vagina. </div></div>
How about saying nothing?
Or doesn't the Army teach people to be respectful anymore?
It's probably just you, most of the student/soldiers I deal with still call me Sir. But then again, they're respectable young men.
I was young and thought I was cooler than everyone once, enjoy it, it doesn't last.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Grimm17</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
I don't even know an inoffensive way to say this. Vagina. </div></div>
How about saying nothing?
Or doesn't the Army teach people to be respectful anymore?
It's probably just you, most of the student/soldiers I deal with still call me Sir. But then again, they're respectable young men.
I was young and thought I was cooler than everyone once, enjoy it, it doesn't last.
Re: to go 260 remington, or stick with 308
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Buck</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Turbo, I'll play on this one:
Say an angry bear is headed towards me 50 yds and closing. I would feel a little under gunned with my .260 slinging 123gr or 139gr Scenars. I would much rather have my .308 loaded with 175-190gr SMKs or 208gr AMAXs for that one shot.
But if I'm making a shot on a long range, say 900 to 1100 yds, I'll take my .260 all day long.
That being said, I believe the 6.5mm "elephant killer" was a 160gr solid copper roundnose from the 6.5x55 - better nerves than mine! </div></div>
In the angry bear scenario, I'd rather have a Saiga 12 with 5-10 3" slugs on tap.
That said, I can't wrap my brain around any reason why a 308 might be better for the angry bear scenario than a 260. Here's why:
308...
180 Sierra
2500fps (I've used this combination a LOT, and 2500 is about all you're gonna get from a 24" tube)
2498 ftlbs energy
.271 sectional density
260...
142 Sierra
2850fps
2561 ftlbs energy
.291 sectional density
With these loads, the 260 has more energy and higher sectional density - both huge contributors to lethality. What am I missing?
How about at 1000 yards? (Not aimed at you, Buck...I realize you stated longer range = 260...this is aimed at others)
308
175 SMK
2650 fps-muzzle
1150fps-1000yards (G7 BC = .243)
<span style="font-weight: bold">514 ftlbs energy
.264 sectional density</span>
260
142 SMK
2850 fps-muzzle
1530 fps-1000 yards (G7 BC = .301)
<span style="font-weight: bold">738 ftlbs
.291 sectional density</span>
More velocity and energy for any given sectional density. What am I missing here?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Buck</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Turbo, I'll play on this one:
Say an angry bear is headed towards me 50 yds and closing. I would feel a little under gunned with my .260 slinging 123gr or 139gr Scenars. I would much rather have my .308 loaded with 175-190gr SMKs or 208gr AMAXs for that one shot.
But if I'm making a shot on a long range, say 900 to 1100 yds, I'll take my .260 all day long.
That being said, I believe the 6.5mm "elephant killer" was a 160gr solid copper roundnose from the 6.5x55 - better nerves than mine! </div></div>
In the angry bear scenario, I'd rather have a Saiga 12 with 5-10 3" slugs on tap.
That said, I can't wrap my brain around any reason why a 308 might be better for the angry bear scenario than a 260. Here's why:
308...
180 Sierra
2500fps (I've used this combination a LOT, and 2500 is about all you're gonna get from a 24" tube)
2498 ftlbs energy
.271 sectional density
260...
142 Sierra
2850fps
2561 ftlbs energy
.291 sectional density
With these loads, the 260 has more energy and higher sectional density - both huge contributors to lethality. What am I missing?
How about at 1000 yards? (Not aimed at you, Buck...I realize you stated longer range = 260...this is aimed at others)
308
175 SMK
2650 fps-muzzle
1150fps-1000yards (G7 BC = .243)
<span style="font-weight: bold">514 ftlbs energy
.264 sectional density</span>
260
142 SMK
2850 fps-muzzle
1530 fps-1000 yards (G7 BC = .301)
<span style="font-weight: bold">738 ftlbs
.291 sectional density</span>
More velocity and energy for any given sectional density. What am I missing here?
Re: to go 260 remington, or stick with 308
Bingo.
Bingo.
Re: to go 260 remington, or stick with 308
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Buck</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Turbo,
That being said, I believe the 6.5mm "elephant killer" was a 160gr solid copper roundnose from the 6.5x55 - better nerves than mine! </div></div>
Trivia, Bell used a 6.5x54 1903 Mannlicher Schonauer with 160 solids also a 275 Rigby AKA 7x57, he also brain shot. He would shoot the first which usually fell straight down then would run up back of downed and take the rest of the herd.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Buck</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Turbo,
That being said, I believe the 6.5mm "elephant killer" was a 160gr solid copper roundnose from the 6.5x55 - better nerves than mine! </div></div>
Trivia, Bell used a 6.5x54 1903 Mannlicher Schonauer with 160 solids also a 275 Rigby AKA 7x57, he also brain shot. He would shoot the first which usually fell straight down then would run up back of downed and take the rest of the herd.
Re: to go 260 remington, or stick with 308
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: mouse07410</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Thank you! Great! Nosler provided the range (most of their bullets should be good down to 1800 fps).
</div></div>
Here's what Senior technical Coordinator from Speer responded to my question on Optimum Performance velocity range for their bullets:
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Speer Sr. Technical Coordinator</div><div class="ubbcode-body">... don't know that we publish that data other than in "read between the lines" on the velocities where the bullets are used and the calibers where used and not used.
<span style="font-style: italic">Here's the 2nd response:</span>
My suggestion is to look at well constructed bullets for hunting and look at the load data for the caliber, then calculate 1000 ft lbs of energy for deer, 1500 ft lbs for elk, black bears in between the two, the longer the distance hit bone to accomplish the expansion of the bullet.
</div></div>
Here's what Hornady said:
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Hornady</div><div class="ubbcode-body">...the SST bullets need an impact velocity of 1500-1600fps, the Interbond would be 1800fps, and the GMX is 2000fps.
The A-max is a match bullet and I do not recommend it for hunting.
</div></div>
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: mouse07410</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Thank you! Great! Nosler provided the range (most of their bullets should be good down to 1800 fps).
</div></div>
Here's what Senior technical Coordinator from Speer responded to my question on Optimum Performance velocity range for their bullets:
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Speer Sr. Technical Coordinator</div><div class="ubbcode-body">... don't know that we publish that data other than in "read between the lines" on the velocities where the bullets are used and the calibers where used and not used.
<span style="font-style: italic">Here's the 2nd response:</span>
My suggestion is to look at well constructed bullets for hunting and look at the load data for the caliber, then calculate 1000 ft lbs of energy for deer, 1500 ft lbs for elk, black bears in between the two, the longer the distance hit bone to accomplish the expansion of the bullet.
</div></div>
Here's what Hornady said:
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Hornady</div><div class="ubbcode-body">...the SST bullets need an impact velocity of 1500-1600fps, the Interbond would be 1800fps, and the GMX is 2000fps.
The A-max is a match bullet and I do not recommend it for hunting.
</div></div>
Re: to go 260 remington, or stick with 308
I had to re-check the title of this thread, I thought it was another 308 vs '06 debate.
It's funny how all the 308 lovers that wont stand for the '06 being better in any way use the same arguements.
I had to re-check the title of this thread, I thought it was another 308 vs '06 debate.
It's funny how all the 308 lovers that wont stand for the '06 being better in any way use the same arguements.
Re: to go 260 remington, or stick with 308
Just because it carries more energy doesn't mean it's more lethal. To make it simple....
A .260 is not rated lethal enough to take down 600lb game. With a .308 you can take 600 lb game with 155 g bullets and up. There are a lot of situations wher I would rather have my .260 but to say that the .260 completely dominates .308 in every fashion is absurd. Why can't we just admit that they both have there place?
Just because it carries more energy doesn't mean it's more lethal. To make it simple....
A .260 is not rated lethal enough to take down 600lb game. With a .308 you can take 600 lb game with 155 g bullets and up. There are a lot of situations wher I would rather have my .260 but to say that the .260 completely dominates .308 in every fashion is absurd. Why can't we just admit that they both have there place?
Re: to go 260 remington, or stick with 308
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: mohawk3A</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Just because it carries more energy doesn't mean it's more lethal. To make it simple....
A .260 is not rated lethal enough to take down 600lb game. With a .308 you can take 600 lb game with 155 g bullets and up. There are a lot of situations wher I would rather have my .260 but to say that the .260 completely dominates .308 in every fashion is absurd. Why can't we just admit that they both have there place? </div></div>
I dont want to get too far off in the mud here, but how about this analogy:
The 45acp is a well established, excellent cartridge many people rely on. However, no one disputes the higher lethality and simply, higher performance of the 10mm. The 10 fires a smaller diameter, lighter bullet with higher sectional density, at higher velocity, of course with more energy. To make the analigy even better, consider the 400 corbon cartridge, which essentially matches 10mm performance, as a necked down 45acp.
In this example, a smaller projectile with higher SD and velocity and energy undisputedly yields more lethality.
I love the 308. I have 4 rifles chambered in it. Its awesome how widely available the ammo is and how easy it is to load for. However, I MUST acknowledge the facts, and they all say the 260 is superior ballistically - certainly in regard to exterior ballistics, perhaps not in regard to interior ballistics, and very probably, based on human understanding, terminally (which is NOT an exact science).
Edit: No one has claimed that 260 completely dominates in every way. There are drawbacks including ammo, components, and even rifle availability. Barrels admittedly dont last as long. These have been mentioned, and I dont think even the most vehement supporter of the 260 would argue those points.
I thought we were talking about ballistics.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: mohawk3A</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Just because it carries more energy doesn't mean it's more lethal. To make it simple....
A .260 is not rated lethal enough to take down 600lb game. With a .308 you can take 600 lb game with 155 g bullets and up. There are a lot of situations wher I would rather have my .260 but to say that the .260 completely dominates .308 in every fashion is absurd. Why can't we just admit that they both have there place? </div></div>
I dont want to get too far off in the mud here, but how about this analogy:
The 45acp is a well established, excellent cartridge many people rely on. However, no one disputes the higher lethality and simply, higher performance of the 10mm. The 10 fires a smaller diameter, lighter bullet with higher sectional density, at higher velocity, of course with more energy. To make the analigy even better, consider the 400 corbon cartridge, which essentially matches 10mm performance, as a necked down 45acp.
In this example, a smaller projectile with higher SD and velocity and energy undisputedly yields more lethality.
I love the 308. I have 4 rifles chambered in it. Its awesome how widely available the ammo is and how easy it is to load for. However, I MUST acknowledge the facts, and they all say the 260 is superior ballistically - certainly in regard to exterior ballistics, perhaps not in regard to interior ballistics, and very probably, based on human understanding, terminally (which is NOT an exact science).
Edit: No one has claimed that 260 completely dominates in every way. There are drawbacks including ammo, components, and even rifle availability. Barrels admittedly dont last as long. These have been mentioned, and I dont think even the most vehement supporter of the 260 would argue those points.
I thought we were talking about ballistics.
Re: to go 260 remington, or stick with 308
I understand the superior ballistics of .260, that's why I have one. Still if I were to only keep one rifle of mine, it would be a .308. One think not mentioned here is the new series of Berger 30 cal bullets that will close the ballistic gap a bit.
I understand the superior ballistics of .260, that's why I have one. Still if I were to only keep one rifle of mine, it would be a .308. One think not mentioned here is the new series of Berger 30 cal bullets that will close the ballistic gap a bit.
Re: to go 260 remington, or stick with 308
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Nefariousd</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Grimm17</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
I don't even know an inoffensive way to say this. Vagina. </div></div>
How about saying nothing?
Or doesn't the Army teach people to be respectful anymore?
It's probably just you, most of the student/soldiers I deal with still call me Sir. But then again, they're respectable young men.
I was young and thought I was cooler than everyone once, enjoy it, it doesn't last. </div></div>
"But then again, Shooting is my golf, I get my food from the store, and <span style="color: #FF0000"><span style="font-weight: bold">if it comes down to it I'll probably get it from other people if necess</span>ary</span> or become a herbivore. I see no point in shooting animals that aren't trying to harm me or my family"
but you are going to get your food from "other people" if it comes down to it...
troll = troll
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Nefariousd</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Grimm17</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
I don't even know an inoffensive way to say this. Vagina. </div></div>
How about saying nothing?
Or doesn't the Army teach people to be respectful anymore?
It's probably just you, most of the student/soldiers I deal with still call me Sir. But then again, they're respectable young men.
I was young and thought I was cooler than everyone once, enjoy it, it doesn't last. </div></div>
"But then again, Shooting is my golf, I get my food from the store, and <span style="color: #FF0000"><span style="font-weight: bold">if it comes down to it I'll probably get it from other people if necess</span>ary</span> or become a herbivore. I see no point in shooting animals that aren't trying to harm me or my family"
but you are going to get your food from "other people" if it comes down to it...
Re: to go 260 remington, or stick with 308
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: mohawk3A</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Just because it carries more energy doesn't mean it's more lethal. To make it simple....
A .260 is not rated lethal enough to take down 600lb game. With a .308 you can take 600 lb game with 155 g bullets and up. There are a lot of situations wher I would rather have my .260 but to say that the .260 completely dominates .308 in every fashion is absurd. Why can't we just admit that they both have there place? </div></div>
"Rated" by who?
The bore diameter of a .308 does NOT make it more lethal by any means.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: mohawk3A</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Just because it carries more energy doesn't mean it's more lethal. To make it simple....
A .260 is not rated lethal enough to take down 600lb game. With a .308 you can take 600 lb game with 155 g bullets and up. There are a lot of situations wher I would rather have my .260 but to say that the .260 completely dominates .308 in every fashion is absurd. Why can't we just admit that they both have there place? </div></div>
"Rated" by who?
The bore diameter of a .308 does NOT make it more lethal by any means.
Re: to go 260 remington, or stick with 308
Matunas OGW formula (kinetic energy times momentum, adjusted by a constant)
Matunas OGW formula (kinetic energy times momentum, adjusted by a constant)
Re: to go 260 remington, or stick with 308
If you look at some of the major tactical tournaments in the country you'll see that the 260 is a top contender. Snipers Hide Bash 2010 won with a 260, Arizona TPRC 2nd place 2010 & 2011 with a 260, Nor Cal 2nd place TBRC 2010, 1st place 2011 TBRC with a 260. Terry Cross, one of the top tactical shooters in the country, uses a 260. It's not a fluke why many people use a 260 and now that Lapua has brass for it, it's a go to cartridge for many applications including hunting at moderate distances using a quality bullet such as Berger.
Go with a 260, you won't be disappointed.
If you look at some of the major tactical tournaments in the country you'll see that the 260 is a top contender. Snipers Hide Bash 2010 won with a 260, Arizona TPRC 2nd place 2010 & 2011 with a 260, Nor Cal 2nd place TBRC 2010, 1st place 2011 TBRC with a 260. Terry Cross, one of the top tactical shooters in the country, uses a 260. It's not a fluke why many people use a 260 and now that Lapua has brass for it, it's a go to cartridge for many applications including hunting at moderate distances using a quality bullet such as Berger.
Go with a 260, you won't be disappointed.
Re: to go 260 remington, or stick with 308
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Nefariousd</div><div class="ubbcode-body">This all seems interesting. I picked up a .260 because "All the cool kids were doing it" and I got tired of beating myself to death with 208's in the .308 to hit long range steel when my buddies and I go out for a day. The average day is 200-300 rounds from the .308, 200 from the .338 Lapua and maybe 500 from the .223.
Changing to the .260, having only used it on two trips, seemed to be a lot more pleasant with down range results being at least as consistent.
As previously mentioned, it's doubtful I'll get rid of the .308, as it does what it does and in a pinch ammunition is likely to be easily had. The .260 does the job with a little less punishment to this shooter and that alone makes it worth having around. It terms of killing power, I'm only concerned with killing my shoulder and the terminal effects of the stock into my body is a pleasant change.
If someone mentioned it I missed it, there is a a lot to be said for less recoil. In matches I'm WAY better with my .223 than the .308 (kinda hoping the .260 will strike a nice medium here and by adding a can make it awesome). Which one could argue would increase the lethality by making appropriate shot placement more certain.
But then again, Shooting is my golf, I get my food from the store, and if it comes down to it I'll probably get it from other people if necessary or become a herbivore. I see no point in shooting animals that aren't trying to harm me or my family </div></div>
Those carrots and stalks of celery aren't trying to harm you or your family either. They were alive before somebody murdered them so you could sustain yourself.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Nefariousd</div><div class="ubbcode-body">This all seems interesting. I picked up a .260 because "All the cool kids were doing it" and I got tired of beating myself to death with 208's in the .308 to hit long range steel when my buddies and I go out for a day. The average day is 200-300 rounds from the .308, 200 from the .338 Lapua and maybe 500 from the .223.
Changing to the .260, having only used it on two trips, seemed to be a lot more pleasant with down range results being at least as consistent.
As previously mentioned, it's doubtful I'll get rid of the .308, as it does what it does and in a pinch ammunition is likely to be easily had. The .260 does the job with a little less punishment to this shooter and that alone makes it worth having around. It terms of killing power, I'm only concerned with killing my shoulder and the terminal effects of the stock into my body is a pleasant change.
If someone mentioned it I missed it, there is a a lot to be said for less recoil. In matches I'm WAY better with my .223 than the .308 (kinda hoping the .260 will strike a nice medium here and by adding a can make it awesome). Which one could argue would increase the lethality by making appropriate shot placement more certain.
But then again, Shooting is my golf, I get my food from the store, and if it comes down to it I'll probably get it from other people if necessary or become a herbivore. I see no point in shooting animals that aren't trying to harm me or my family </div></div>
Those carrots and stalks of celery aren't trying to harm you or your family either. They were alive before somebody murdered them so you could sustain yourself.
Re: to go 260 remington, or stick with 308
I shoot the .260 Rem in competition and I'm very pleased. I did find it a little more difficult to find a sweet spot in terms of powder and bullets, but only on my GAP built Rem700 rifle. It has a Bartlein 1:8 twist 26" barrel, and it it seems to only like 142gr SMK over H4350. However, my Savage with a 1:8.5 Benchmark at 26" is much less finicky and actually produces better groups than my GAP rifle. The Savage really shines with Lapua 123gr Sceenars over H4831SC and Varget. It also shoots 142 SMKs and 139 Scenars with blistering accuracy.
One of the benefits of using the .260 Rem is that with my scope set up I don't need to dial very often (S&B 4x16 P4). The flat trajectory of the .260 allows me to reach out to the extended ranges without making adjustments to the scope. I get 7.1 Mil of hold over to a 900 yard target on my .260 Rem with 142gr SMKs at 2810fps. As where on my .308 I'm looking at about 8.3 Mil to get to 900 yards using 175gr SMKs. Don't get me wrong, I love the .308 Win, and I own two of them. It's a great cartridge for any number of reasons, esp. since there is so much off the shelf match grade ammo. However, for what I do (tactical match shooting) the .260 Rem is a better cartridge. The only other cartridges I would look at for the type of shooting I do is the 6.5 Creedmoor, 6.5x47 Lapua, 7mm-08, and if you can afford the barrels the 7WSM.
I don't think you will be disappointed in the .260 Rem, and as previously stated, Terry Cross shoots the .260 and wins. Granted Terry could probably win with a Red Rider BB gun, but obviously the man is a shooter and sees the merits in shooting the .260.
I shoot the .260 Rem in competition and I'm very pleased. I did find it a little more difficult to find a sweet spot in terms of powder and bullets, but only on my GAP built Rem700 rifle. It has a Bartlein 1:8 twist 26" barrel, and it it seems to only like 142gr SMK over H4350. However, my Savage with a 1:8.5 Benchmark at 26" is much less finicky and actually produces better groups than my GAP rifle. The Savage really shines with Lapua 123gr Sceenars over H4831SC and Varget. It also shoots 142 SMKs and 139 Scenars with blistering accuracy.
One of the benefits of using the .260 Rem is that with my scope set up I don't need to dial very often (S&B 4x16 P4). The flat trajectory of the .260 allows me to reach out to the extended ranges without making adjustments to the scope. I get 7.1 Mil of hold over to a 900 yard target on my .260 Rem with 142gr SMKs at 2810fps. As where on my .308 I'm looking at about 8.3 Mil to get to 900 yards using 175gr SMKs. Don't get me wrong, I love the .308 Win, and I own two of them. It's a great cartridge for any number of reasons, esp. since there is so much off the shelf match grade ammo. However, for what I do (tactical match shooting) the .260 Rem is a better cartridge. The only other cartridges I would look at for the type of shooting I do is the 6.5 Creedmoor, 6.5x47 Lapua, 7mm-08, and if you can afford the barrels the 7WSM.
I don't think you will be disappointed in the .260 Rem, and as previously stated, Terry Cross shoots the .260 and wins. Granted Terry could probably win with a Red Rider BB gun, but obviously the man is a shooter and sees the merits in shooting the .260.
Re: to go 260 remington, or stick with 308
The 260 is a fantastic round, especially since you're a handloader. If you load it right, it can outperform the 308 in both trajectory and energy at long range.
The 260 is a fantastic round, especially since you're a handloader. If you load it right, it can outperform the 308 in both trajectory and energy at long range.
Re: to go 260 remington, or stick with 308
GO 6.5 CREEDMOOR !
GO 6.5 CREEDMOOR
Re: to go 260 remington, or stick with 308
I went the route of tman300wm, re barreled a savage 12 in .308.
Factory barrel would foul horribly and poi would change with heat. Got a 24” benchmark 3 groove 1-8 twist in .260 rem.
After reading up, and sifting through the shit like you see earlier in the post. I had to go with the .260.
Bullet selection (high bc target and hunting), light recoil, light game taking capability and good brass.
I don’t really need any more. Ill let you know how it shoots.
My .02
Gruff
I went the route of tman300wm, re barreled a savage 12 in .308.
Factory barrel would foul horribly and poi would change with heat. Got a 24” benchmark 3 groove 1-8 twist in .260 rem.
After reading up, and sifting through the shit like you see earlier in the post. I had to go with the .260.
Bullet selection (high bc target and hunting), light recoil, light game taking capability and good brass.
I don’t really need any more. Ill let you know how it shoots.
My .02
Gruff
