Wanted to pick your minds about whether or not to lube the necks of freshly prepped and cleaned cases. I hear different things and was wondering if I should lube the cases and what I should lube it with. Thanks.
- Thread starter digdugg33
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Re: To lube or not when seating bullets
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rob01</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Never did it and always load very accurate ammo. Don't plan on adding another step to the process.</div></div>
Makes 2 of us.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rob01</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Never did it and always load very accurate ammo. Don't plan on adding another step to the process.</div></div>
Makes 2 of us.
Re: To lube or not when seating bullets
Or, you could try This vs. That, and see if it makes a difference?
Why can't people think of that on their own.
Just try it if the question burns at you enough to ask it here....technically, moly bullets are lubed as they sit in the case neck, and lots of folks have luck with moly bullets.
And no, I don't lube bullets unless they are cast lead......
Or, you could try This vs. That, and see if it makes a difference?
Why can't people think of that on their own.
Just try it if the question burns at you enough to ask it here....technically, moly bullets are lubed as they sit in the case neck, and lots of folks have luck with moly bullets.
And no, I don't lube bullets unless they are cast lead......
Re: To lube or not when seating bullets
I suspect a lot of guys have the idea that many of us lube inside necks to make bullet seating easier. Not so, but it's understandable considering that the suggestion is often made without a clear statement of what it's done for. And new guys read so many warnings to never do anything but what's in the loading books they may get sweaty about trying something new or different on their own. (That's why we get so many worried questions asking "what's the right OAL for my bullet and model and serial number of rifle, etc" for fear of blowing themselves up.)
Dugger, your question is sane but sometimes we old hands forget what it's like to be a noob. The point of inside case neck lubing is to ease neck expander withdrawal during resizing, nothing more. If it does anything to your accuracy will have to be tested.
I suspect a lot of guys have the idea that many of us lube inside necks to make bullet seating easier. Not so, but it's understandable considering that the suggestion is often made without a clear statement of what it's done for. And new guys read so many warnings to never do anything but what's in the loading books they may get sweaty about trying something new or different on their own. (That's why we get so many worried questions asking "what's the right OAL for my bullet and model and serial number of rifle, etc" for fear of blowing themselves up.)
Dugger, your question is sane but sometimes we old hands forget what it's like to be a noob. The point of inside case neck lubing is to ease neck expander withdrawal during resizing, nothing more. If it does anything to your accuracy will have to be tested.
Re: To lube or not when seating bullets
I've also never cared to add more steps to my reloading processes, and am able to make extremely accurate ammo without lubing casenecks.
That said...
Two weeks ago my buddy's new 284Win was finished up, and because he doesn't have brass, powder, bullets or dies for it yet, asked me if I could load some ammo for him. Out of sheer laziness, I didn't bother to clean off the imperial sizing was inside the casenecks from necking up the Lapua 6.5-284 brass, so I just charged/seated bullets in them. I noted VERY slick bullet seating, that required very little effort, and was exceptionally smooth. At the range, they shot LIGHTS OUT. I'm talking 30/50 rounds in the 3" X ring at 600 yards, and the other 20 shots inside the 6" 10 ring. Not even 1 shot was dropped into the 9 ring over the course of 50 rounds.
Not saying this was on account of the lubed casenecks...but it sure didn't hurt!
I've also never cared to add more steps to my reloading processes, and am able to make extremely accurate ammo without lubing casenecks.
That said...
Two weeks ago my buddy's new 284Win was finished up, and because he doesn't have brass, powder, bullets or dies for it yet, asked me if I could load some ammo for him. Out of sheer laziness, I didn't bother to clean off the imperial sizing was inside the casenecks from necking up the Lapua 6.5-284 brass, so I just charged/seated bullets in them. I noted VERY slick bullet seating, that required very little effort, and was exceptionally smooth. At the range, they shot LIGHTS OUT. I'm talking 30/50 rounds in the 3" X ring at 600 yards, and the other 20 shots inside the 6" 10 ring. Not even 1 shot was dropped into the 9 ring over the course of 50 rounds.
Not saying this was on account of the lubed casenecks...but it sure didn't hurt!
Re: To lube or not when seating bullets
My chronograph tells me on new brass it makes no differnce lube or not, on fired brass the carbon thats left after a quick brush aids in reducing ES versus SS media cleaned brass lubed inside with graphite powder, so I don't use SS media anymore on bolt gun brass, YMMV.
My chronograph tells me on new brass it makes no differnce lube or not, on fired brass the carbon thats left after a quick brush aids in reducing ES versus SS media cleaned brass lubed inside with graphite powder, so I don't use SS media anymore on bolt gun brass, YMMV.
Re: To lube or not when seating bullets
Just a warning, if you plan on using these bullets that were lubed when seated for hunting, make sure you crimp the bullets. An uncle of mine once loaded 300 WM rounds and forgot to clean the case necks, left the lube on it. We go hunting and he shoots a 5 point buck, but the recoil from his rifle (which kicks like a mule) was so great that it pushed the bullets into the brass, spilling powder all over the magazine. That could have ended much worse, but luckily nothing was damaged and we cleaned the magazine and rifle of all the powder.
Ever since I told him to try cleaning off the lube before seating, he no longer has this problem.
Just a warning, if you plan on using these bullets that were lubed when seated for hunting, make sure you crimp the bullets. An uncle of mine once loaded 300 WM rounds and forgot to clean the case necks, left the lube on it. We go hunting and he shoots a 5 point buck, but the recoil from his rifle (which kicks like a mule) was so great that it pushed the bullets into the brass, spilling powder all over the magazine. That could have ended much worse, but luckily nothing was damaged and we cleaned the magazine and rifle of all the powder.
Ever since I told him to try cleaning off the lube before seating, he no longer has this problem.
Re: To lube or not when seating bullets
that would be a "no", you kinda need some tension from the brass onto the bullet so lubing your projectile is kinda like greasing your car's brakes, defeat the purpose.
hope this helps.
that would be a "no", you kinda need some tension from the brass onto the bullet so lubing your projectile is kinda like greasing your car's brakes, defeat the purpose.
hope this helps.
Re: To lube or not when seating bullets
No lube here
HH
No lube here
HH
Re: To lube or not when seating bullets
Yeah, rusty beat me to it. Recoil will push the bullet into the neck deeper, but deep enough to spill powder? I don't know about that, since I load to 98/99% volume, the bullet can't go much further? But, heavy recoil can and will push bullets that are in the magazine, deeper into the neck and sometimes damage the point. Lubing the inside of the neck is a bad idea regardless of above testimonials about accuracy. You need a certain amount of neck tension, no more, no less. BB
Yeah, rusty beat me to it. Recoil will push the bullet into the neck deeper, but deep enough to spill powder? I don't know about that, since I load to 98/99% volume, the bullet can't go much further? But, heavy recoil can and will push bullets that are in the magazine, deeper into the neck and sometimes damage the point. Lubing the inside of the neck is a bad idea regardless of above testimonials about accuracy. You need a certain amount of neck tension, no more, no less. BB
Re: To lube or not when seating bullets
I normally don't lube unless I am shooting over 500 yards.
A while back I was putting some ammo together and I had an ear itch and I used the base of the bullet to scratch it. Then I thought why not give a few more a try and I took about a dozen to the range and my groups shrunk 50%.
Just sayin
I normally don't lube unless I am shooting over 500 yards.
A while back I was putting some ammo together and I had an ear itch and I used the base of the bullet to scratch it. Then I thought why not give a few more a try and I took about a dozen to the range and my groups shrunk 50%.
Just sayin
Re: To lube or not when seating bullets
My opinion is never. I make a point to clean necks (I wash re-sized brass as final prep) post resize to remove all residual lube and tumbler wax. It's the counter op of neck tension and I do not load for anal BR neck tensions and load for mag.
IMO if your touching lands it makes nill of a difference. If you have a jump, it makes a difference in precision. More so with loads not pushing max pressure.
Your removing a variable in bullet squirt that most solve by seating to the lands. That's often not practical.
Try it with and without.
My opinion is never. I make a point to clean necks (I wash re-sized brass as final prep) post resize to remove all residual lube and tumbler wax. It's the counter op of neck tension and I do not load for anal BR neck tensions and load for mag.
IMO if your touching lands it makes nill of a difference. If you have a jump, it makes a difference in precision. More so with loads not pushing max pressure.
Your removing a variable in bullet squirt that most solve by seating to the lands. That's often not practical.
Try it with and without.
Re: To lube or not when seating bullets
I guess I will stand out of the crowd and say I do. Imperial sizing wax.
Is it worth it??? To be honest I have done this for a 4-5 years and recall it lowering my ES. By how much, don’t remember... I polish my necks with a bore brush in a drill as well.
I guess I will stand out of the crowd and say I do. Imperial sizing wax.
Is it worth it??? To be honest I have done this for a 4-5 years and recall it lowering my ES. By how much, don’t remember... I polish my necks with a bore brush in a drill as well.
Re: To lube or not when seating bullets
That carbon can be good lube too!
That carbon can be good lube too!
Re: To lube or not when seating bullets
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Niles Coyote</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I guess I will stand out of the crowd and say I do. Imperial sizing wax.
Is it worth it??? To be honest I have done this for a 4-5 years and recall it lowering my ES. By how much, don’t remember... I polish my necks with a bore brush in a drill as well.
</div></div>
I use a bore brush for the insides of my necks, too, placed on my RCBS TrimMate, but that's as far as I'm going.
Chris
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Niles Coyote</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I guess I will stand out of the crowd and say I do. Imperial sizing wax.
Is it worth it??? To be honest I have done this for a 4-5 years and recall it lowering my ES. By how much, don’t remember... I polish my necks with a bore brush in a drill as well.
</div></div>
I use a bore brush for the insides of my necks, too, placed on my RCBS TrimMate, but that's as far as I'm going.
Chris
Re: To lube or not when seating bullets
I find that uniform seating force is critical to high accuracy reloads and I get there without lubing the inside of the neck, but if you find that lubing is the way that gets you uniform seating I say lube.
Just my thoughts,
wade
I find that uniform seating force is critical to high accuracy reloads and I get there without lubing the inside of the neck, but if you find that lubing is the way that gets you uniform seating I say lube.
Just my thoughts,
wade
Re: To lube or not when seating bullets
+1 turbo
i use mica powder on my case necks when bullet seating. It makes seating the bullets much easier. I run my press slow ( like tripwire has mentioned in the past) and i find the mica really helps when reloading the 50. I use a drop tube so the powder doesn't touch the mica on the case neck.
i use at least .005 tension, when i use less then that i tend to see delayed ignitions.
i didnt really notice an improvement (or a decrease)in accuracy using the mica ,but i do it anyways. If you were not shooting that far , and were shooting a standard cartridge , im not sure i'd reccomend it.
+1 turbo
i use mica powder on my case necks when bullet seating. It makes seating the bullets much easier. I run my press slow ( like tripwire has mentioned in the past) and i find the mica really helps when reloading the 50. I use a drop tube so the powder doesn't touch the mica on the case neck.
i use at least .005 tension, when i use less then that i tend to see delayed ignitions.
i didnt really notice an improvement (or a decrease)in accuracy using the mica ,but i do it anyways. If you were not shooting that far , and were shooting a standard cartridge , im not sure i'd reccomend it.
Re: To lube or not when seating bullets
I thought it was common to use lube when seating cast bullets. Am I not correct in this. I dont shoot cast stuff. I was under the assumption that the jacket eliminated the need for lube.
I thought it was common to use lube when seating cast bullets. Am I not correct in this. I dont shoot cast stuff. I was under the assumption that the jacket eliminated the need for lube.
Re: To lube or not when seating bullets
Never lube while seating. May try soon just for grins.
Never lube while seating. May try soon just for grins.
Re: To lube or not when seating bullets
What about polishing the inside of the neck? More consistent bullet exit more consistent groups?
What about polishing the inside of the neck? More consistent bullet exit more consistent groups?
Re: To lube or not when seating bullets
It would also decrease the friction of the seated bullet in the neck and inertia of the bullet would be less...speed at bullet exit from the case might change..
Actually I have never heard of anyone doing that even the most compulsive benchrest shooters. Perhaps a randomized prospective controlled power tested study is in order?
It would also decrease the friction of the seated bullet in the neck and inertia of the bullet would be less...speed at bullet exit from the case might change..
Actually I have never heard of anyone doing that even the most compulsive benchrest shooters. Perhaps a randomized prospective controlled power tested study is in order?
Re: To lube or not when seating bullets
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: azhank</div><div class="ubbcode-body">What about polishing the inside of the neck? More consistent bullet exit more consistent groups? </div></div>
In my experience, No and No
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: azhank</div><div class="ubbcode-body">What about polishing the inside of the neck? More consistent bullet exit more consistent groups? </div></div>
In my experience, No and No
Re: To lube or not when seating bullets
What kind of tests did you run and what was the yield?
What kind of tests did you run and what was the yield?
Re: To lube or not when seating bullets
I have to many steps now and not about to add another one.
I have to many steps now and not about to add another one.
Re: To lube or not when seating bullets
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: rusty815</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Just a warning, if you plan on using these bullets that were lubed when seated for hunting, make sure you crimp the bullets. An uncle of mine once loaded 300 WM rounds and forgot to clean the case necks, left the lube on it. We go hunting and he shoots a 5 point buck, but the recoil from his rifle (which kicks like a mule) was so great that it pushed the bullets into the brass, spilling powder all over the magazine. That could have ended much worse, but luckily nothing was damaged and we cleaned the magazine and rifle of all the powder.
Ever since I told him to try cleaning off the lube before seating, he no longer has this problem. </div></div>
Hmmmmm. I would say there were several problems going on here that had nothing to do with a lubed neck. First not near enough neck tension for a hunting round that will sit in a box magazine. Second a poor choice in powders creating a low density condition.
I always lube inside necks with Imerial Wax but don't always clean it out. I never noticed any difference.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: rusty815</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Just a warning, if you plan on using these bullets that were lubed when seated for hunting, make sure you crimp the bullets. An uncle of mine once loaded 300 WM rounds and forgot to clean the case necks, left the lube on it. We go hunting and he shoots a 5 point buck, but the recoil from his rifle (which kicks like a mule) was so great that it pushed the bullets into the brass, spilling powder all over the magazine. That could have ended much worse, but luckily nothing was damaged and we cleaned the magazine and rifle of all the powder.
Ever since I told him to try cleaning off the lube before seating, he no longer has this problem. </div></div>
Hmmmmm. I would say there were several problems going on here that had nothing to do with a lubed neck. First not near enough neck tension for a hunting round that will sit in a box magazine. Second a poor choice in powders creating a low density condition.
I always lube inside necks with Imerial Wax but don't always clean it out. I never noticed any difference.
Re: To lube or not when seating bullets
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: azhank</div><div class="ubbcode-body">What kind of tests did you run and what was the yield? </div></div>
Chronograph and paper, a neck just brushed but with burnt carbon left showed a lower SD versus a polished clean neck, same goes for SS media cleaned brass lubed with graphite, SD was still less with brushed necks, on paper at 100 there is a small difference, but at distance the reduced SD/ES helps big time. I seat all my bolt gun rounds with Wilson dies with a K&M arbor press with seating force attachment, it takes slightly less force with brushed cleaned necks than with polished.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: azhank</div><div class="ubbcode-body">What kind of tests did you run and what was the yield? </div></div>
Chronograph and paper, a neck just brushed but with burnt carbon left showed a lower SD versus a polished clean neck, same goes for SS media cleaned brass lubed with graphite, SD was still less with brushed necks, on paper at 100 there is a small difference, but at distance the reduced SD/ES helps big time. I seat all my bolt gun rounds with Wilson dies with a K&M arbor press with seating force attachment, it takes slightly less force with brushed cleaned necks than with polished.
Re: To lube or not when seating bullets
Negative
Negative
Re: To lube or not when seating bullets
I don't lube case necks, but experience over that past week has made me wonder about that. My concern is not about lubrication between neck and projectile, but about bonding.
I have a bunch of .222 Rem ammo made up for my Granddaughter to use, but it really hasn't been performing that well, and I've acquired a Stag 5.56 Super Varminter that I'd like to get set up for her to use instead. I decided to repurpose the bullets and propellent from the .222 for use as load development test loads for the Stag. So I got out the collet bullet pulling setup and went to work.
About 20 rounds into the exrcise, I got brought up short. The bullets were suddenly acting like pulling teeth. With no warning, the pull force was several times harder than the ones at the start.
Without exception, the tougher ones had a band of brass colored discoloration around their circumference starting at the base. It varied in height and was usually uneven in height running around that circumference, reaching as much as 1/4 of the way up from the base to the ogive.
Also without exception, they were coming out of W-W cases, the others were R-P. I don't think the brand difference is important here, but the two types probabaly underwent different case cleaning/prep; and in any case, I'm not going to re-examine the archaeology of the processes involved. If we have an issue here, it's the future that counts.
I ran the bullets (about 60 of them) through the case polisher using red rouge treated walnut. They cleaned up, but the discoloration remains.
I don't think it's too hazardous a jump to conclude that for some reason, bimetalic corrosion has taken place, bonding the components and migrating brass over to the jackets. This is from ammo that is at most three to four months in existence.
I don't presume to understand it, but I do know I don't like it.
I want to add something to the process, but not as a lube. I want it to act as dielectric layer, interrupting the bonding process.
My first inkling says graphite, perhaps with some sort of agent that serves as plasticizer (wax, grease?). Ideally something a lot like rimfire bullet lube with graphite mixed in.
What I don't want is something that's going to interact with the propellent, altering it in some/any way.
I also think the coating should be applied to the bullet, not the neck interior, so powder granules don't clog in the case neck, and so lube buildup does not get pushed ahead of the bullet as it is seating.
My reason for posting this here is as a sanity check. Is this really too far 'round the bend; and if not, is any part of the reasoning truly sound?
Greg
I don't lube case necks, but experience over that past week has made me wonder about that. My concern is not about lubrication between neck and projectile, but about bonding.
I have a bunch of .222 Rem ammo made up for my Granddaughter to use, but it really hasn't been performing that well, and I've acquired a Stag 5.56 Super Varminter that I'd like to get set up for her to use instead. I decided to repurpose the bullets and propellent from the .222 for use as load development test loads for the Stag. So I got out the collet bullet pulling setup and went to work.
About 20 rounds into the exrcise, I got brought up short. The bullets were suddenly acting like pulling teeth. With no warning, the pull force was several times harder than the ones at the start.
Without exception, the tougher ones had a band of brass colored discoloration around their circumference starting at the base. It varied in height and was usually uneven in height running around that circumference, reaching as much as 1/4 of the way up from the base to the ogive.
Also without exception, they were coming out of W-W cases, the others were R-P. I don't think the brand difference is important here, but the two types probabaly underwent different case cleaning/prep; and in any case, I'm not going to re-examine the archaeology of the processes involved. If we have an issue here, it's the future that counts.
I ran the bullets (about 60 of them) through the case polisher using red rouge treated walnut. They cleaned up, but the discoloration remains.
I don't think it's too hazardous a jump to conclude that for some reason, bimetalic corrosion has taken place, bonding the components and migrating brass over to the jackets. This is from ammo that is at most three to four months in existence.
I don't presume to understand it, but I do know I don't like it.
I want to add something to the process, but not as a lube. I want it to act as dielectric layer, interrupting the bonding process.
My first inkling says graphite, perhaps with some sort of agent that serves as plasticizer (wax, grease?). Ideally something a lot like rimfire bullet lube with graphite mixed in.
What I don't want is something that's going to interact with the propellent, altering it in some/any way.
I also think the coating should be applied to the bullet, not the neck interior, so powder granules don't clog in the case neck, and so lube buildup does not get pushed ahead of the bullet as it is seating.
My reason for posting this here is as a sanity check. Is this really too far 'round the bend; and if not, is any part of the reasoning truly sound?
Greg
Re: To lube or not when seating bullets
Anyone..., Anyone..., Beuler...?
Anyone..., Anyone..., Beuler...?
Re: To lube or not when seating bullets
I too wondered about this in looking for ways to lowering and keeping better ES/SD. I agree with Cobra on the brush only on my tumbled cases in walnut/corncob mixture in that bullets seated with less force than my virgin cases. I to also wondered about the lubes out there but as Greg mentioned didn't want it to come in contact with the powder. I decided to try Imperial dry neck lube but instead of dipping the case neck I decided to dip the base of the bullet. The results of this was far superior to anything I had tried taking my high teen ES to single digits. It has now become a standard procedure for my reloading of all my calibers from 260 to 338. I say try it if your wondering and see what happens if it bugs you the cost is very minimal
Sully
I too wondered about this in looking for ways to lowering and keeping better ES/SD. I agree with Cobra on the brush only on my tumbled cases in walnut/corncob mixture in that bullets seated with less force than my virgin cases. I to also wondered about the lubes out there but as Greg mentioned didn't want it to come in contact with the powder. I decided to try Imperial dry neck lube but instead of dipping the case neck I decided to dip the base of the bullet. The results of this was far superior to anything I had tried taking my high teen ES to single digits. It has now become a standard procedure for my reloading of all my calibers from 260 to 338. I say try it if your wondering and see what happens if it bugs you the cost is very minimal
Sully
