You may be overlooking the "fun" aspect of the PCC weapon.....
To PCC or not to PCC...?
- Thread starter Naaman
- Start date
I am waiting for a Lunar 9mm can to get released from federal purgatory to run with my 150grn federal syntechs. That should be fun close range predator killing.
For me, a suppressor (or any stamp) is a no go, so all the "best" reasons to go PCC are lost on me. This is why I'm in the "PCCs DO suck" camp. lol.
Yes, I am (purposely
). Shooting can be fun, but ultimately, for me, the fun is a happy biproduct of self defense training. And... lately, blowing $15-30 a mag is depressing enough to suck the fun right out of it....
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a pcc is one of the most controllable weapons for self defense and the easiest (and cheapest) to train with.For me, a suppressor (or any stamp) is a no go, so all the "best" reasons to go PCC are lost on me. This is why I'm in the "PCCs DO suck" camp. lol.
Yes, I am (purposely
the barrel length adds velocity thus enhancing the terminal effects of defensive ammunition designed for pistol length barrels.
just playing devil’s advocate vs your arguments, a ‘pistol’ ‘pcc’ (ex. a scorpion with a brace) requires no stamp, so you’d be covered there as well.
not to mention it can be the cheapest thing to shoot besides 22LR
I’m still reloading components I bought many moons ago.... $.13 a round for 147gr 1000fps 9mm through the Scorpion’s suppressor. Puts a smile on your face to hear it clanging off steel.
I completely get it, and I tend to agree (and I appreciate the challenge to my viewpoint
). In a scenario where neither a handgun or a 5.56 braced pistol is an option, I could see spending the coin on a braced PCC in 9mm. But then, if it was going to be the "one gun," then why not go 10mm? (availability and cost of ammo could be argued, for sure). I feel confident enough with a handgun to see a 9mm PCC as more of a novelty, especially when a 10" or 11" AR pistol in 5.56 is a choice at a similar price point.Here's a bit of data that I've looked at to come to my position:
BBTI - Ballistics by the Inch :: 9mm Luger Results
(statement of intent)
www.ballisticsbytheinch.com
You can see that for the 147gr (my defensive load of choice) there is almost no value gained by adding barrel length. Even the 124 and 135 grains have what to me seems like a negligible gain in velocity.
I'm not saying PCCs don't get it done. My position is more like this: if I already have compact sedan and 3/4 ton pick up truck, why bother getting a 4- or 6-cylinder pick up truck that costs the same as getting another 3/4 ton pick up truck? I could just spend that money on gas (ammo).
Now, the person for whom I started the thread, he only has a compact sedan (handgun). So getting a 6-cyl pick up adds to his capability without being too redundant.
My mindset right now is that a PCC is on my list, but it's not useful enough to be high on the list. Depending on what happens with ATF/midterms and legislation (especially pro 2A legislation, if that's even a thing anymore... lol), I may move it higher or lower on the list in the coming months.
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valid points, my only disagreement tends to be with handguns, as the data we have shows that skill with them tends to degrade quickly under stress, as opposed to any longer barreled platform.
the cited reasons for that tend to vary, but the most compelling evidence right now is the change in optical acuity that accompanies an adrenaline dump coupled with a short sight radius and lesser stability leads to more frequent misses than expected.
the cited reasons for that tend to vary, but the most compelling evidence right now is the change in optical acuity that accompanies an adrenaline dump coupled with a short sight radius and lesser stability leads to more frequent misses than expected.
All things I can certainly attest to, for sure. It's definitely harder to keep my pistol skill up at an "acceptable" level (if one can ever be truly satisfied). Even just adding in time pressure can muck it all up.
Incidentally, I have always considered the handgun to be my "primary." I learned (and improved overall) more about shooting when training on handguns than on long guns. I've noticed that there is a one-way carry over: skill with a handgun seems to transfer to shooting a rifle, but learning a rifle does not help with handgun marksmanship.
In the army, I was more confident in my rifle (for obvious reasons), but carried a handgun 100% of the times I was armed (not by choice, which is why spent my free time training much more pistol than rifle). Only ever carried a rifle on deployment, and even then, the rifle was a backup to a belt fed on a HMMWV.
In training, I have learned to apply a principle preached by Wyatt Earp: you have to learn to go slow in a hurry. I have never had to apply this in the real world, so... who knows if I will "default" to my training (assuming the training is targeting the right reflexes/myelination, etc.).
My PCC is the 16" Ruger PC in 9mm. With interchangeable mag well adapters, mags from several manufacturers' guns can be accommodated.
I have the one for the Ruger American 9, and my 10 17rd mags interchange between both guns seamlessly. The PC is a take-down gun and fits in my sling-pack.
Off the bench and a sandbag you can cover its group with a hand at 100yd. It's not intended for anything with more precision than Home Defense, so I'm very happy with how it does.
I use it with a low power dot scope, but it comes with a very serviceable peep rear sight.
Note, finally, that the controls and cocking lever on the Ruger PC 9 can be switched side to side (It still ejects to the right).
Review - it really is a fun gun!
Greg
I have the one for the Ruger American 9, and my 10 17rd mags interchange between both guns seamlessly. The PC is a take-down gun and fits in my sling-pack.
Off the bench and a sandbag you can cover its group with a hand at 100yd. It's not intended for anything with more precision than Home Defense, so I'm very happy with how it does.
I use it with a low power dot scope, but it comes with a very serviceable peep rear sight.
Note, finally, that the controls and cocking lever on the Ruger PC 9 can be switched side to side (It still ejects to the right).
Review - it really is a fun gun!
Greg
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Time to dredge up an old thread lol didn’t want to create a new thread with this one so in depth.
We are wanting a 2nd dedicated HD gun. My wife has a PDP compact for CCW but doesn’t have anything on it to keep its size down. We also have a 16” scorpion which serves as our primary HD atm.
We both do well with the scorpion but do not want to rely on the PDP as the secondary.
The way our home is set up, our front door is next to our kids rooms which very easily puts the potential intruders between us and their rooms. Depending on where we are looking it’s 15-20 ft between our room and theirs.
We want to stick with 9mm but are torn on another PCC or getting a full sized pistol.
Any thoughts from the more experienced members on which is better for our situation?
Budget is a work in progress so not sure what we are looking at specific model wise but likely in $1200 or less for everything.
We are wanting a 2nd dedicated HD gun. My wife has a PDP compact for CCW but doesn’t have anything on it to keep its size down. We also have a 16” scorpion which serves as our primary HD atm.
We both do well with the scorpion but do not want to rely on the PDP as the secondary.
The way our home is set up, our front door is next to our kids rooms which very easily puts the potential intruders between us and their rooms. Depending on where we are looking it’s 15-20 ft between our room and theirs.
We want to stick with 9mm but are torn on another PCC or getting a full sized pistol.
Any thoughts from the more experienced members on which is better for our situation?
Budget is a work in progress so not sure what we are looking at specific model wise but likely in $1200 or less for everything.
I would always take something fired from the shoulder with a red dot over a handgun. They are easier to shoot well, especially under stress. How about a shorter barreled scorpion?
Might go a little over budget, been happy with my KP9, only issue is mounting a non Russian light on the stock light mount is a little tuff
The stribog sp9a1 gen2 with the sb folding brace has proven to be utterly reliable for me with the original mags and the new curved mags from global ordnance (recommend these for HD). It's run every hollow point I've put through it. More then that, my wife has shot the stribog and her shorty AR pistol and loves the bog more. It's also an incredibly fun gun to shoot..I do not hesitate to recommend it.
Note: I know there are mixed reviews on reliability with the original mags but recommend researching the stribog with the curve Updated mags. I almost didn't purchase the gun and I'm so glad I went with my gut and did.
Thanks for the replies.
I know she tried the scorpion pistol with a brace and a couple others but didn’t like the mid length feel of the shorter guns. With our budget constraints I’m trying to do the impossible and get something that myself, her and our oldest are comfortable using
I know she tried the scorpion pistol with a brace and a couple others but didn’t like the mid length feel of the shorter guns. With our budget constraints I’m trying to do the impossible and get something that myself, her and our oldest are comfortable using
What do you mean by the mid length feel? The length of the weapon or the recoil impulse?
Got it, there's always a way around that, atleast for the stribog but I think for the CZ as well. Get one without the brace and put one of these on there
Grand Power Stribog SP9A1 AR Buffer Tube Adapter
Use code: “stribogacc” for free shipping on accessories purchased with the Stribog Use code: “stribogcomboacc” for free shipping on accessories purchased with the Stribog Co…
doublemdefense.com
Then a buffer tube and any adjustable pistol brace you want. Just an option if you want adjustability on length of pull with a none AR platform PCC.
Length of the weapon as a whole, up until the PDP she’s mostly used rifles and that’s what she is most comfortable with. We are both hesitant to use a non pistol caliber due to the house arrangement.
There’s plenty of evidence that 5.56 rifles actually penetrate less than pistols
TLDR warning. As if I have to, it's who I am.
been able to pair handguns and carbines of the same caliber a "few" times in my life.
.22, various and, well, various. It's a long list of pistols and handy 16" carbines.
.30 carbine. Inland M1 and Ruger 6"
32-20, Colt Army circa 1917 and '92 Winchester
45LC, S&W 25-5 8 3/8" and a Uberti Trapper 16"
44-40, Gen II SAA and a '73 carbine
357, Ruger Security Six and a Rossi 16" lever gun. I know many have had issues with this carbine but I'm not one of them.
44 Mag, Flat top Blackhawk and Ruger Deer Slayer
.45ACP, Ser. 70 1911 and Ruger Camp Carbine
See a trend here?
Since this was more along the lines of the thread ...
9mm, A large variety, P35,1911,P08,FEG, but no Glocks, with a Ruger Camp Carbine or an Olympic Arms 9.
I see a PCC as a more accurate pistol that shares pistol ammunition. I strongly resist loading specific rifle and pistol ammunition because of the ease of accidently mixing the two. At the very least the results would be unintended and at worst catastrophic.
Pros,
More accurate pistol
Shares pistol ammunition
Provides a longer sight radius
Provides a platform that you can hang optics, lasers, lights and siren from < /sarc
At 16" it's not that bad in CQB but wants a stamp (more on that later)
At 16" it's not unusual to pick up 100+ fps from standard (non +P) ammunition
Recoil reduction
Cons,
Could have had a .223/5.56, 300AAC/BLK, etc, in the same package.
16" isn't quite short enough and in today's climate wants for a stamp.
Magazines, today there are a plethora of options instead of the adaptors and proprietary crap I faced
Weight, for the weight of one unloaded PCC you could carry a second pistol or a bunch of magazines.
Other,
Add a second stamp for an integral suppressed barrel. Few are available but only lengthen the SBR by as little as 6". The downside is waiting on a form one if you're going to build your own while several alphabet agencies look up your skirt for the better part of a year or finding an integral suppressor barrel and paying the "luxury tax" and waiting more than a year. In any case you get a reasonably short PCC for an extra $400 in stamps plus twice the cost of the weapon in home machining or off the shelf suppressor.
last words
I only have the PCC's mentioned above because I could and did over a period of decades. I don't think I'd ever use one as a dedicated home or personal defense weapon. I have many other choices. I have carried a PCC and its paired pistol in the woods outside of the hunt just to lighten the load and share ammunition.
You are fortunate today that most 9mm AR pattern rifles use common magazines. A few have even gone beyond blow back and are delayed-locked. Some are even sold as pistols and can be braced rather than stocked depending on which way the flag waves. Still, I'd evaluate want verses need against desired function. The real question isn't pistol or PCC it's what you are trying to achieve and what is the best tool for the job for you.
been able to pair handguns and carbines of the same caliber a "few" times in my life.
.22, various and, well, various. It's a long list of pistols and handy 16" carbines.
.30 carbine. Inland M1 and Ruger 6"
32-20, Colt Army circa 1917 and '92 Winchester
45LC, S&W 25-5 8 3/8" and a Uberti Trapper 16"
44-40, Gen II SAA and a '73 carbine
357, Ruger Security Six and a Rossi 16" lever gun. I know many have had issues with this carbine but I'm not one of them.
44 Mag, Flat top Blackhawk and Ruger Deer Slayer
.45ACP, Ser. 70 1911 and Ruger Camp Carbine
See a trend here?
Since this was more along the lines of the thread ...
9mm, A large variety, P35,1911,P08,FEG, but no Glocks, with a Ruger Camp Carbine or an Olympic Arms 9.
I see a PCC as a more accurate pistol that shares pistol ammunition. I strongly resist loading specific rifle and pistol ammunition because of the ease of accidently mixing the two. At the very least the results would be unintended and at worst catastrophic.
Pros,
More accurate pistol
Shares pistol ammunition
Provides a longer sight radius
Provides a platform that you can hang optics, lasers, lights and siren from < /sarc
At 16" it's not that bad in CQB but wants a stamp (more on that later)
At 16" it's not unusual to pick up 100+ fps from standard (non +P) ammunition
Recoil reduction
Cons,
Could have had a .223/5.56, 300AAC/BLK, etc, in the same package.
16" isn't quite short enough and in today's climate wants for a stamp.
Magazines, today there are a plethora of options instead of the adaptors and proprietary crap I faced
Weight, for the weight of one unloaded PCC you could carry a second pistol or a bunch of magazines.
Other,
Add a second stamp for an integral suppressed barrel. Few are available but only lengthen the SBR by as little as 6". The downside is waiting on a form one if you're going to build your own while several alphabet agencies look up your skirt for the better part of a year or finding an integral suppressor barrel and paying the "luxury tax" and waiting more than a year. In any case you get a reasonably short PCC for an extra $400 in stamps plus twice the cost of the weapon in home machining or off the shelf suppressor.
last words
I only have the PCC's mentioned above because I could and did over a period of decades. I don't think I'd ever use one as a dedicated home or personal defense weapon. I have many other choices. I have carried a PCC and its paired pistol in the woods outside of the hunt just to lighten the load and share ammunition.
You are fortunate today that most 9mm AR pattern rifles use common magazines. A few have even gone beyond blow back and are delayed-locked. Some are even sold as pistols and can be braced rather than stocked depending on which way the flag waves. Still, I'd evaluate want verses need against desired function. The real question isn't pistol or PCC it's what you are trying to achieve and what is the best tool for the job for you.
I hear this, but from my gravel pit finding stuff to shoot shooting, I’m not too sure about that
I wouldn’t do “stamps” registration has a bad history, and that whole definition of insanity
Another aspect is sending a pistol rounds down a longer barrel has some good performance advantages too, while also having less percussion and flash indoors compared to when rifle round
PCCs are so much more than a pistol, between accuracy, velocity, capacity, being able to run that and lights and still have a fast pointing gun, etc etc
Our only other option would be a Bullpup rifle which we don’t have experience with and can’t rent or even hold one because none of our local LGS have any in stock. Don’t want to spend that kind of money without at least holding one given how different the concept is.
Looked at a few augs, I like them, but can’t get beyond the meh trigger, and no good aftermarket solutions
I’ve heard good things about the X95 and hellion but would have to wait a bit longer due to the price increase
For just plinking the Stribog SP9A3 is a great little shooter, you also have the CZ Scorpion and both are in the price range.
If you like to shoot with a top hat and a monocle on while pronouncing words with a Euro accent and spend more money there are two clones of HK's MP5/SP5 that are nice and one is made in the US (the original is nice but spendy). You also have the B&T APC9 Pro which is a great little piece of kit.
If you want an expensive PCC that is phenomenal at recoil management in a AR platform there is the JP5 which is undoubtfully the king.
If you like to shoot with a top hat and a monocle on while pronouncing words with a Euro accent and spend more money there are two clones of HK's MP5/SP5 that are nice and one is made in the US (the original is nice but spendy). You also have the B&T APC9 Pro which is a great little piece of kit.
If you want an expensive PCC that is phenomenal at recoil management in a AR platform there is the JP5 which is undoubtfully the king.
I purchased a A3 Stribog after shooting one at the range that belonged to a friend. I had read bad reviews about feeding but his ran FMJs fine. Mine is the same, shoots all FMJs and small hollow points but forget trying to shoot Gold Dots. The big hollow point catches the bottom of the feed ramp. I'm using the metal lip mags, forget any mags with poly feed lips, including magpul scorpion mags that fit in the lingle conversion lower.
The curved mags for the Stribog are the best. I have yet to have a failure to feed with mine. My son has actually used it for Outlaw USPSA matches (I offered to let him use my JP GMR15 but he likes the Stribog even though the GMR 15 recoil impulse is much lighter. I am still waiting on my JP5.
Interesting. My Sp9a1 gen 2 with the updated curved mags runs gold dots like a champ. Graham baates* has a "whats for dinner" ammo evaluation on YouTube and I believe it ate everything as well. Never had a malfunction of any kind with the blowback but the A3s had issues beyond magazines from what I researched which is why I steered cleared of the roller delay and went direct blowback.
I really like a 9mm PCC for new shooters and for shooting frang at steel targets in the pistol bays. I have a couple different cheap ones.......all PSA......one takes scorpion mags, one takes endomags (kinda shitty). I don't have a glock mag one yet.......but it is on my short list. Glock setup is probably the best option, my scorpion mag one bent the bolt catch then broke the receiver out that holds the bolt catch. I made a steel insert and haven't had an issue since. I think I was running pretty hot ammo and was getting A LOT of inertia in the bolt carrier as it slammed the catch assembly. You can probably avoid this by putting in a buffer spacer to limit carrier rearward travel after case ejection and run a buffer spring appropriate for the ammo you are shooting.
Ern
Ern
Curved Stribog mags with metal lips?
Lingle made alum lowers that use AR15 grips, triggers and Scorpion mags they work well just don't use magpul Scorpion mags in them.
ETA-The first straight Stribog mags made from plastic of some sort were cracking or breaking around the feed lips, the second gen had metal feed lips which work fine for me with fmj and small hollowpoint but usually have 1 misfeed per mag with Gold dots. I haven't shot it in ayear or 2 so I haven't tried the new Stribog curved mags.
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No they don't have metal feed lips but they are a completely different polymer and you can instantly tell they are higher quality then the original. I have all three(original, gen 2 metal with newest follower and the curved mags) and the curved mags are just a higher quality product. Highly recommend them and they aren't to expensive.
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