Gunsmithing truing a rem 700??

skeetlee

Gunny Sergeant
Full Member
Minuteman
Jun 13, 2008
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Central Illinois
I dont know a lot about this and i may even ask this wrong but here goes. What method is better to use to true a rem 700 action. The jig method or single point cutting method? Or is one even better than the other?
Second question, has anyone ever re-barreled a rem 700 with out truing the action? I need a coyote rifle and that s all it will be, so it doesnt need to be spectacular, but i do have a shilen chrome moly barrel i paid 140 bucks for i want to put on my old rem action. Also if i buy a new kiff bolt would i still need to true the action face and threads? Thanks Lee
 
Re: truing a rem 700??

There are a bunch of guys out there who use the jigs and reamers made by different outfits. To my way of thinking, the only really correct way is to single point the action and bolt in the lathe. That way you eliminate any deflection by using those tools. As for the coyote rifle, It probably won't make a difference if you are using a good barrel.

Jim
 
Re: truing a rem 700??

I'm sure your gunsmith can, and will, answer this question for you. I know you have a great relationship with him.
I've been shooting a rem 722 action in the IBS Varmint Hunter class for many years. It is as competitive as any action, in my class. It has never had the threads recut. I only "cleaned them up" as I was trueing the action face, lug ways, bolt lugs and boltface.
 
Re: truing a rem 700??

If your running a stock bolt either way will work fine, the stock Remington clearances will never use the advantage of the more accurate single point method. If your sleeving the bolt or using an oversize bolt, then single point would be the best way to go.
If you use a PTG bolt I would have the bolt raceway reamed to make both the front and rear rings the same diameter. that allows you to really take advantage of the new bolt. I have one I measured last night for my own project and the front ring is .002" bigger than the rear.

Lots of 700s have been barreled up with no accurizing at all. It may shoot great or not at all or somwhere in between. You never know until it's done. That's why we accurize them. That being said, lapp the luggs, face the reciever and true the boltface with a facing button that squares off the front of the front of the reciever and with a stock bolt it will shoot great!
 
Re: truing a rem 700??

Doc
I think you could shoot great scores with any rifle Doc!! I do have a great relationship with Jon but he is busy and i dont want to tie up his time until i have a solid plan. Jon doesnt use the jig method, but he does have one. 150 bucks for the jig method and i think double that for the single point method. Jons says he cant tell me the difference because he hasnt used the jig to know yet. He doesnt see how it could be as good using the jig but there again he says he just doesnt know for sure. That was a few months back we had that conversation, so maybe he has used since then. Anyway i came across this little rifle by chance. I wasnt looking for one, and it kinda found me. Its an older rem 700 probably from the 60's, so it should be a good little action/rifle. I dont have a plan because i wasnt even thinking about doing anything just yet. Me and my shooting pard was thinking we would try those new savage rifles this year for the dog hunting, so i just dont have a plan! Now that i have this action on the way, i cant keep from thinking about what to do with it.
I dont think i want to sink a bunch of money into it for a hunting rifle. By the time i am done with truing and a new bolt, i could almost have a custom action. That little surgeon action is only 775 bucks! Thats pretty attractive.
Like i said above i would like to have a detach mag, and thats going to run 350 bucks min.
Ill probably sell this rifle and buy a rem 700 action with a 308 bolt and have it jig trued and have my shilen chrome moly barrel chambered up to it and still it in an HS varmint stock with a skim bead job and call it done. I wont have a detach mag but i will live. Either that or ill sell it and buy a tikka T3 varmint in 22-250. It will come to me, in due time i guess. I just like talking with you fellas and seeing how other rifle junkies think. All part of the fun! Thanks a bunch fellas, Keep the opinions coming, i enjoy it! Thanks Lee
 
Re: truing a rem 700??

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: swd</div><div class="ubbcode-body">the stock Remington clearances will never use the advantage of the more accurate single point method. If your sleeving the bolt or using an oversize bolt, then single point would be the best way to go.
</div></div>


Anyone???


SWD, I may agree with what you just said. I'm not sure. Dont know enough yet. but I'm very interested to hear what some of the most experienced guys say about that. They single point cut the entire action and bolt(claiming to within rediculous tolerances), then put the same sloppy Remy bolt back in. Does this bolt slop hurt all the accurizing they just did?


Im just asking, so no one jump my shit.
I like the statement SWD said, I just want to see if anyone agrees or disagrees.
 
Re: truing a rem 700??

I have said this before and I will say it again. With a very good barrel and chamber job in a field or tacticl rifle you can get away with alot of machine inaccuracies in the receiver and the rifle will still be a tack driver so much so that 95% of the shooters would never see any difference.

I have done both jig and single point cutting on receivers, and well, see the above statement.

Thing is it can never be a perfect comparison because no two barrels are alike, no two receivers are alike, and once a particular machine technique has been done to the receiver you can't go back and do something else, and even if you did you now have change the variable.

After 20 years of building there are some things that just aren't worth debating since there is really no way to prove it one way or another. You are going to have to either choose for yourself or experience it both ways to know for yourself.

One other thing. This is Snipers Hide not Benchrest Central. Two different rifles that are meant to two different things. They are not interchangeable. Tight tolerances are meant for the BR rifle not the field rifle.
 
Re: truing a rem 700??

But as far as the bolt slop statement, does that play into anything at all after truing a Remy action and bolt to the ".000x"?

Do you need to remove most bolt slop to really get what you want from the all truing you just did? If I picture everything in-line, trued, the bolt would need to be floating centered in the raceway wouldnt it? It doesnt.


I will be trying every different way I can in school. I WILL decide for myself but I greatly respect the opinions of some of the men on here and want to hear what they think.


And Randy, I ABSOLUTELY agree with what you said about the differences between a bench gun and a field rifle. It just seems the two are becoming intertwined. People now want bench tight rifles to operate in the field with. And many smiths now advertise Bench tightness/accuracy in "tacticool" rifles.

Makes a guy just coming into this industry wonder what to do.
 
Re: truing a rem 700??

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: LR-WSM</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Something like this may be what your looking for, http://www.brownells.com/.aspx/pid=26021/Product/BOLT_BODY_SHIM_SET

Hope the link works </div></div>

I'd probably prefer to use an entirely new bolt. From PT&G
 
Re: truing a rem 700??

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: AZPrecision</div><div class="ubbcode-body">But as far as the bolt slop statement, does that play into anything at all after truing a Remy action and bolt to the ".000x"?

Do you need to remove most bolt slop to really get what you want from the all truing you just did? If I picture everything in-line, trued, the bolt would need to be floating centered in the raceway wouldnt it? It doesnt.
</div></div>

From my experience no I don’t agree with the statement entirely, that single point cutting is going to show the best accuracy, with or without bolt slop. There are too many other variable to even prove this.

Bolt slop can hurt accuracy but how much slop and in what type of rifle are you building? And would the average shooter see any difference? In a field or tactical rifle my experience tells me no.

Again it depends on what type of rifle you are going to build. BR rifle or field rifle. Bolt sleeving and all that was a BR thing along with receiver sleeving back in the day before there were so many custom actions. In a BR rifle where one needs to shoot in the 1's all the time every time then as tight and smooth of a tolerance you can get is going to be beneficial. In a filed or tactical rifle no. (I don't necessarily call some types of BR shooting, shooting either, but that's another story)

Ever see a tight tolerance tactical rifle fail in the field while it's being utilized like it should. Look around there are a few videos on the Hide of just those rifles coming to screeching halt from just a little bit of dust and dirt. Tight is not always good or necessary, and if the rifle is prone to fail then who really cares how tight one made it?

Think about what happens when a round goes off, where the pressure goes and what is occurring that would affect accuracy. If it all or mostly depended on the receiver for accuracy why then do rail guns shoot so well when there is no receiver to speak of to begin with?

Again one is talking apples and oranges when it comes to tight tolerances in relation to a BR or field rifle. Yes they are become intertwined but that’s because of the internet not reality.

If on comes to me and is expecting a field or tactical rifle to shoot in the 1 or 2’s I politely send them to someone else. The reliability of the rifle is not going to be there and most shooters can’t hold 1’s and 2’s outside of BR anyway, so they will be disappointed when they can’t do it and blame the rifle.
 
Re: truing a rem 700??

It really comes down to how good your particular action is. Ive seen a few {very few} really good 700s with .003"-.004" bolt clearance. Those actions absolutly bennefit from single pointing. I've also seen some real crappers with .008" to .012"
{the worst I've ever seen was .013" on a 700}. If your piloted tap gets one of those down to .002" to .003" TIR, well your still pretty much looking down the middle of one of those. Although I'm not sure your really helping much if your at the upper end of those kind of bolt clearances, but some customers just have to have it done no matter what. I offer both methods depending on what the customer needs and wants to pay for. That being said, I would prefer to single point everything as I like to do the best I can and enjoy the work, but not every customer is looking for that. All I can do is give them the options along with my opinion and let them make the decision.

Randy is absoultly correct about building a gun for it's intended purpose. Tactical, benchrest and elk hunting rifles all have very different needs. I talked with a customer last week who wants an f class open, LR tactical and moose hunting rifle all in one....seriously! I told him he was talking two and preferably three very different rifles. Watchya gonna do....
 
Re: truing a rem 700??

Anyone ever damage/ruin a receiver single point truing it completely? Honestly now.... Anyone? Set something up wrong and run your threading bar into the lug abutments... take off too much on the abutments? Not pick the threads up correctly? Anything?

Has anyone used a .010" over piloted lug/thread "truing" tool, then faced it off with a mandrel... Then single point cut everything to see how far off the piloted tool was?

My thinking is, if I wanted a bench tight rifle, I'd use a custom action.
If I wanted to build a field rifle, I'd put a good match barrel on a faced off Remy and run with it.
Going Ape-shit over truing Remys when there are customs out there now, seems silly sometimes to me.

Lucky for me, I have about 40 years ahead of me to try anything I want
 
Re: truing a rem 700??

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: AZPrecision</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Anyone ever damage/ruin a receiver single point truing it completely? Honestly now.... Anyone? Set something up wrong and run your threading bar into the lug abutments... take off too much on the abutments? Not pick the threads up correctly? Anything? </div></div>

i do a dry run a few thousandths above the threads to make sure my gearing is set up correctly and to find the depth i want to go in the z.

when ever cutting new threads, i always make the first pass just a few thousandths deep and check with a pitch gauge. i am glad i did the other day when threading a tennon. it would have been all bad if i got close to full depth before i realized i had the gearing handle set in the wrong place. i double and sometimes triple check everything.
 
Re: truing a rem 700??

You use a plunger indicator to tell you when you're at depth right?

I get to try action truing and barreling in 6 weeks when class starts again. NOW we start the real work
smile.gif

Cant wait...
 
Re: truing a rem 700??

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: AZPrecision</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You use a plunger indicator to tell you when you're at depth right?

I get to try action truing and barreling in 6 weeks when class starts again. NOW we start the real work
smile.gif

Cant wait... </div></div>

i was using a dial indicator but lately i have been using a sharpie mark on the lathe bed. when i find a donor action, i am thinking about doing the next one vertically on the cnc mill.
 
Re: truing a rem 700??

Silly or not if a customer still wants a fully tricked out 700 over a custom action give him what he wants or somone else will.

Dry runs keep you from crashing. Double and triple check as need be. Havn't hurt one yet. Knock on wood!

There was a guy on Benchrest.com a few years ago that did about 20 mandrel trued 700s checking runout before and after. If I recall he claimed they all trued up to .002" to .004" runout. That's his story not mine. All I know every mandrel trued Rem I've done shot damn good. And so do the single pointed ones. But then so do a lot of just lapped and faced 700s. I did an F-TR 308 on a 700 for a guy a few years ago, pillar bedded in a LV stock, lapped and faced only with a Brux that shot 8" groups during break in at 1K. No load development at all.

All I really know is if a customer wants it and you either can't do the work or don't have the tooling to do it, clients will move on to a gunsmith that can do the work.

I use a travel indicator for a zero/when to stop. Same for facing the action lugs to know when your just going to get there.

300 Sniper, congrats on two in a row! Looks like next month you'll have a chance at four in a row. Gonna do it?
 
Re: truing a rem 700??

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: swd</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Silly or not if a customer still wants a fully tricked out 700 over a custom action give him what he wants or somone else will. </div></div>

I do agree.

But you can get customs as cheap as tricking out a Remy sometimes.
 
Re: truing a rem 700??

some people don't need or want all the bells and whistles of a custom action that don't improve function one bit.

for myself, i'm sticking to trued remingtons for now on. then again, it doesn't cost me anything other than time and maybe an oem style extractor to true one.
 
Re: truing a rem 700??

I hate to say it, but people know more about what they want than what they need sometimes.
I often want something other than what I need. Ive had rifles built how I "wanted" them and regreted it. Shoulda listened to the smith who was building it when he insisted on doing something different.
 
Re: truing a rem 700??

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: AZPrecision</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Anyone ever damage/ruin a receiver single point truing it completely? Honestly now.... Anyone? Set something up wrong and run your threading bar into the lug abutments... take off too much on the abutments? Not pick the threads up correctly? Anything?

Has anyone used a .010" over piloted lug/thread "truing" tool, then faced it off with a mandrel... Then single point cut everything to see how far off the piloted tool was?

My thinking is, if I wanted a bench tight rifle, I'd use a custom action.
If I wanted to build a field rifle, I'd put a good match barrel on a faced off Remy and run with it.
Going Ape-shit over truing Remys when there are customs out there now, seems silly sometimes to me.

Lucky for me, I have about 40 years ahead of me to try anything I want </div></div>


Ahh....I remember those days in school....haha

Keith, I blueprinted 5 actions last night and all of them had the threads opened up to 1.075-1.085 in order to get clean concentric threads with the thread faces clean on BOTH sides.

I could not imagine trying to pick up the threads accurately with out using my borescope to look inside and make sure my threading insert is sitting the way it should inside the action.

Greg Tannel makes some really good videos (pretty old) on the industry standard way to single point cut. I would recommend buying some of his videos. It may put your mind to ease.

You can always give a call if you wish.

Mark
 
Re: truing a rem 700??

Not trying to be a smart guy here or anything, but if ringing a steel plate is all your after why even true a rem action. I have had several rem 700 308 rifles that would ring steel plates out to 700 yards with boring accuracy. I started this post because i am not 100% sure i want to even spend the money to have my action trued. Im going to shoot coyotes with this rifle and most of the time they are running and luck plays the biggest roll in weather you kill it or miss it. I have a shilen chrome moly barrel that i bought for 150 bucks brand new and my buddy is going to chamber it for a favor. .5" 100 yard accuracy is plenty fine for this rifle. If i do a 22-250Ai like i would like to, the barrel will be gone in 1200 or so rounds (maybe less) then who knows what i will end up doing with it. Just not sure what i will do as of yet. I can get this action jig trued for 150 bucks, so maybe i should just go ahead and have it done? I just dont know!! Lee
 
Re: truing a rem 700??

I do too. Seen several SPS's shoot half inch. An LTR too. (all with hand loads though)

Throw an SPS in a Mcmillan stock and you've got one hell of a rifle for $1200 after you sell the factory stock.

Thats why I made the joke. Most stock Remys I've shot, shot half MOA with hand loads.
 
Re: truing a rem 700??

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: AZPrecision</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Anyone ever damage/ruin a receiver single point truing it completely? Honestly now.... Anyone? Set something up wrong and run your threading bar into the lug abutments... take off too much on the abutments? Not pick the threads up correctly? Anything?

Has anyone used a .010" over piloted lug/thread "truing" tool, then faced it off with a mandrel... Then single point cut everything to see how far off the piloted tool was?

My thinking is, if I wanted a bench tight rifle, I'd use a custom action.
If I wanted to build a field rifle, I'd put a good match barrel on a faced off Remy and run with it.
<span style="color: #FF0000">Going Ape-shit over truing Remys when there are customs out there now, seems silly sometimes to me.</span>

Lucky for me, I have about 40 years ahead of me to try anything I want </div></div>

Yes, but a remy cost $400 vs $1000 up for a custom.
 
Re: truing a rem 700??

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sailhertoo</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Yes, but a remy cost $400 vs $1000 up for a custom. </div></div>
Here's what you'd be looking at cost wise to make a Remy into a custom....


Remy from a pawn shop is $400
New bolt from PT&G is $150 with a discount
Truing the action is normally about $300

Then you have to worry about the scope base holes being off. Fixing them could cost another $100.

Then your looking at hardware... Scope base and recoil lug cost around $175 combined. Some customs come with these, some are even integral.


So after labor and parts, you dont save much if anything by using a fixed up Remy. Your smith just makes more money.
And in the end, its still a fixed up Remy and not a Surgeon with a one piece bolt and integral rail AND integral lug.
Dealer pricing on Surgeon 591s is around $1,000 I think.


To me, there's no comparison between a Remy action with 3 piece bolt, and a Surgeon 591. The Surgeon has a 1 piece bolt, and integral hardware(Rail&Lug). For these reasons alone, a Remington could never match it.


Surgeons are a bit tight though and may not be prefered for dirty field work.
A different custom might then be best.


....in my opinion.
 
Re: truing a rem 700??

AZ your not making any since. A shilen barrel will be a dam sight better than a stock remington, so if you have had several factory rifles shoot .5moa why wouldnt one with a shilen barrel?
Also you could work a rem action over for a lot less than the prices you through out there. Just say in! No bother really i think i am going to sell this remington 700 rifle anyway, and go with a new pierce. thanks brother!! Lee
 
Re: truing a rem 700??

Lee I was jokin about how great some Remys are out of the box. No one ever gets my jokes but me....

And I'm using Shilen barrels in school.
There are a few different grades of barrels they offer. The lower end ones may not be better than Remingtons. The match and selest match, I'm sure they're just great.
Their Match barrels are around $300, which is as much as many other top names, so they should be good
 
Re: truing a rem 700??

AZ your goofy! why did you omit all that stuff you wrote about the remington rifles you have owned and how they shot .5" groups? then you go to say that a remington action with a shilen probably wont shoot .5" groups. I guess i didnt understand the joke either. just for the future dont type something if you dont mean it or if you dont really know what your taking about. And if you serious and truly mean what you type dont omit it. Take a stand, either right or wrong. Its your opinion, cant nobody take that away from you. Anyway peace brother! Lee
 
Re: truing a rem 700??

Lee I dunno what your talking about
I'll explain my attempt at a joke...

I said "If you get an untrued Remy with a $150 barrel to shoot half minute.... well.....


Then I guess you pulled a Remington. haha"


What I meant by that was, a $150 shilen barrel on an untrued Remy, practicaly IS a factory Remington. I was saying that Remingtons very often do shoot half inch out of the box. Where and what did I omit about Remington rifles shooting .5MOA groups? They do. Why would I not stand by that statement? I've only had one Remy that WOULDNT shoot half inch with hand loads and it was probably my shooting and not the rifle.



You said Quote "I have a shilen chrome moly barrel that i bought for 150 bucks brand new and my buddy is going to chamber it for a favor. .5" 100 yard accuracy is plenty fine for this rifle."


I was just rootin' for ya there Lee.
 
Re: truing a rem 700??

When school starts back up I'm going to be taking a Mauser and rebarreling it. Im not going to do any truing work to the Masuer, just chamber a Medium grade Shilen for it.
Im interested to see how it does.

Shortly after that I'll be putting a select match shilen barrel on a Remy action that has only been faced off square to the lugs, and thats it. no extra truing done.

Im going to try very hard in school to find out whats most important in making a rifle shoot. I'll be building one rifle in every different way I can think of if time and money allows
 
Re: truing a rem 700??

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: AZPrecision</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

Im going to try very hard in school to find out whats most important in making a rifle shoot. I'll be building one rifle in every different way I can think of if time and money allows </div></div>

I believe you would get allot more value if you just took 1 rifle and slowly do things to it as opposed to many different rifles which will all have different "out of spec" situations. You cant compare a bunch of different rifles by making different changes to all of them. As others have said on here, the average shooter probably couldnt tell much, if any difference for allot of things that are done to rifles.

Example.
Take one Factory rem 700 &

1. Recut Factory Chamber - reassemble and shoot
2. Cleanup & Chase Action Threads - reassemble and shoot
3. Recut Tennon threads - reassemble and shoot
4. Install Match grade barrel - reassemble and shoot
5. Face Action - reassemble and shoot
6. True boltface - reassemble and shoot
7. Cut action lugs - reassemble and shoot
8. Cut bolt lugs - reassemble and shoot
9. lap lugs - reassemble and shoot



And not necessarily in this order but I think you get the idea.