Tuner Question

[scotty2hotty]

There's s going to be a big divide here just based on personal approach.

As someone who bases decisions on data (and by that, I mean data that would hold up to scrutiny), if mine and other's testing didn't show convincing evidence, I'd personally stop or phase that piece of equipment out. I was personally using tuners for prs type matches as far back as 2019. Both rimfire and centerfire. I have discontinued the use as I haven't seen anything personally or professionally that shows they make any difference for that kind of shooting/competitions.

The divide will be what people consider proper data. Citing many people winning with them or people using 2-3 shot strings to tune and subsequently show they work will definitely not be considered data to anyone with experience and/or education in any research or data based approach. Others will consider the people winning matches or the 2 and 3 shot tests perfectly fine data for their use.

So, yes, if the data provided by people I respect test along the scientific method mostly say that something isn't conclusive or doesn't work....I'm going to take that over 100 people in their back yard citing must less meaningful tests (again, in my opinion).


We still sell tuners and also install them when a customer wishes. But, when using the scientific method approach....there is almost no data that would suggest they work consistently or how they work.

First off, I'm not telling anyone here that they work or they don't work. I'm pretty agnostic on that.

My point is that tuners have become a bit of a religion, you have to unquestionably follow and believe in them, or you get casted as a blasphemous heretic. When anyone asks for evidence, it turns into a "just trust us, we have ~20 years experience with tuners" - sorry, but that's much more religious than it is scientific. And every denomination of the tuner religion has a different answer as to what they do, how they work, and what the process is to use them.

If I saw valid evidence that something I was using or a process I utilize may not be producing the results I think it does, I would be interested. Honestly, the more I learn, the simpler my process in reloading becomes, for example. People can be made to believe almost anything with relatively little testing. Like that there's a velocity "node" when you conduct the "Satterlee method". Or that a simple bullet seating depth test will determine the most precise seating depth. Or that there's an optimal primer seating depth. Or neck tension. Tuner settings. Etc.

A lot of conclusions are drawn from faulty and flawed testing and analysis - especially in the world of shooting. It's why the "Satterlee method" caught fire and was pushed by a lot of very well respected and knowledgeable shooters, even though the process is demonstrable garbage. Most shooters find conclusions where they don't exist, but because most ammo and reloads are pretty good these days, we are able to shoot good groups despite what our conclusions lead us to believe, not because of it.

Read this

Particle Impact Damping in the Horizontal Plane - CORE Reader

core.ac.uk

 

[MarkCZ]

LOL, I have a couple of tuners.

Anyways, back to the OP. There are many different answers to the question he seeks. Best of luck in your quest OP.

The OP said
"When you have found your “ best “ setting with your barrel tuner , is that setting distance specific ?
My uneducated brain says that the chosen setting should transfer through to all distances but is that the case ?"
There are only 2 answers "Yes or No" My answers is NO you need to fine tune at distance. He did not ask if tuners work. He asked how they work.
But he got a lot of crap about religion, and Bryan Litz test, etc. and only got a few answers to his question

 

[Rio Precision Gunworks]

Read this

Particle Impact Damping in the Horizontal Plane - CORE Reader

core.ac.uk

That's fairly old as far as an example. Been read through many times.


After done reading that......take a look at every high speed camera footage of barrels where there is no noticeable movement until after the projectile leaves the muzzle.

Which would easily be enough to recognize when claims of compensating 100fps @ 1k yds are made. Since you're talking about .7 mil of compensation required for about a 50es, let alone 100fps.


No one is saying things don't move or vibrate. The lack of evidence is how to tame said movements and if they even happen enough before the projectile leaves the muzzle AND if they are consistent enough to tune out.

 

[Rio Precision Gunworks]

The OP said
"When you have found your “ best “ setting with your barrel tuner , is that setting distance specific ?
My uneducated brain says that the chosen setting should transfer through to all distances but is that the case ?"
There are only 2 answers "Yes or No" My answers is NO you need to fine tune at distance. He did not ask if tuners work. He asked how they work.
But he got a lot of crap about religion, and Bryan Litz test, etc. and only got a few answers to his question

The answer is actually "both."

As people disagree with how to best use a tuner. Some would say it's better to set for the "anti-node" which wouldn't require distance and others say it's better for positive compensation which would require distance.

The answer is definitely not as simple as yes or no.

 

[MarkCZ]

I’d be interested in knowing what percentage of the top performing Bench Rest and F Class shooters are using tuners ?
To my uneducated view , tuners are put in the almost compulsory equipment column when it comes to those disciplines .
I seriously wonder “ Why “ ?

Most all 22 benchrest shooter are using tuner. Most centerfire benchrest shooter change tune with the loads thru out the day. FClass shooters are using them more and more. Why, is because they work.

 

[Csafisher]

Most all 22 benchrest shooter are using tuner. Most centerfire benchrest shooter change tune with the loads thru out the day. FClass shooters are using them more and more. Why, is because they work.

Or because someone who isn’t data driven said his tuner shrank his groups into 1 hole… or because someone won a big match and had a tuner on the end of their gun………. Lol

 

[MarkCZ]

Or because someone who isn’t data driven said his tuner shrank his groups into 1 hole… or because someone won a big match and had a tuner on the end of their gun………. Lol

Sounds like their tuners worked to me

 

[grauhanen]

The answer is actually "both."

As people disagree with how to best use a tuner. Some would say it's better to set for the "anti-node" which wouldn't require distance and others say it's better for positive compensation which would require distance.

The answer is definitely not as simple as yes or no.

A genuine question here, not meant to be anything else.

Say a tuner is tested at 50 and one setting is found where the most improved results are verified and repeatable. Can the tester know which way he's using the tuner -- whether he's set it for the "anti-node" or if he's set it for positive compensation?

A follow-up question. Can both "anti-node" and positive compensation methods work at the same time at the same setting?

 

[Hi-NV Shooter]

When you have found your “ best “ setting with your barrel tuner , is that setting distance specific ?
My uneducated brain says that the chosen setting should transfer through to all distances but is that the case ?

From my experience once you have a setting that shoots in my case 50 yards. any distance past that will be ammo related as to how it will shoot.

Lee

 

[Hi-NV Shooter]

I'm just pointing out that there's many different schools of thoughts on tuners. Ask 10 different tuner advocates how they work and what they do, and you get 10 different answers. There is no one singular answer to the question for which the OP seeks.

I'm not going to argue with you over tuners. But I do think what you present as evidence is a perfect demonstration of how people draw flawed conclusions in this world of shooting.

Tuners work in one way only and that is to time the bullet's exit from the barrel. regardless of the description being harmonics, vibration whatever
at the natural sag/droop state, the barrel with move up and to the right from the torque of the bullet traveling down the barrel when the round is fired.
timing the bullet's exit at the right spot of that movement is what you are trying to do. FYI you want it at highest point that barrel will move to for the best exit point.

Lee

 

[Hi-NV Shooter]

A genuine question here, not meant to be anything else.

Say a tuner is tested at 50 and one setting is found where the most improved results are verified and repeatable. Can the tester know which way he's using the tuner -- whether he's set it for the "anti-node" or if he's set it for positive compensation?

A follow-up question. Can both "anti-node" and positive compensation methods work at the same time at the same setting?

There is no such thing as 100 % positive compensation. tuning is all about bullet exit timing. you will find several exit points but only the one at the highest point the barrel is at (pointing up) will be the one that will be repeatable.

Lee

 

[Hi-NV Shooter]

Yes if there was repeatable evidence. Especially if it made shooting/reloading more convenient. Problem is you have no examples of that. And there is a scientific example showing them not to work lol.

I think you are in the wrong forum. I don't know of anyone reloading .22 LR we are talking RIMFIRE and tuners

Lee

 

[CNC-Dude]

From my experience once you have a setting that shoots in my case 50 yards. any distance past that will be ammo related as to how it will shoot.

Lee

Exactly....! Just because a rimfire ammo shoots good at 50 yards, doesn't mean it will give the same results at 75 or 100 yards. The reverse also applies more times than not as well. If its shoots good at 100 yards, it could look like a shotgun pattern at 50 yards.

 

[CNC-Dude]

The OP said
"When you have found your “ best “ setting with your barrel tuner , is that setting distance specific ?
My uneducated brain says that the chosen setting should transfer through to all distances but is that the case ?"
There are only 2 answers "Yes or No" My answers is NO you need to fine tune at distance. He did not ask if tuners work. He asked how they work.
But he got a lot of crap about religion, and Bryan Litz test, etc. and only got a few answers to his question

It may be in centerfire but not rimfire. The same lot of Center X for instance can shoot 5 shot single holes at 50 yards(with or without a tuner), but give you 1 to 1-1/2 MOA at 100 yards. Competition guys often have to switch to Midas + or some other ammo to regain better groups at 75 or even 100 yards. So for rimfire it's more ammo related for distance than it is in centerfire....

 

[CNC-Dude]

Are we talking philosophy now? Lol. I have one but I’m not convinced they work… And no, bigger sample sizes will not wash other stuff out if it works…. Litz also tests “other” stuff. I refer to him because their testing is actually scientific.

You need to watch the recent podcast with Litz on Erik Cortina's "Believe the Target" channel. Litz admits some of the claims he made years ago and even in his books have now changed due to more testing and advanced equipment that didn't exist earlier when claims were first made. They both are going to engage in another podcast directed entirely towards tuners which is going to be very good to say the least. Litz has also mentioned in other podcasts he will revisit the tuner testing because he had so many tuner experts point out his original testing with them was flawed in their opinion, and will undergo the retesting with their guidance. That speaks volumes to his merit and ethics to not be blinded by bias and is willing to retest and listen to those that are knowledgeable in areas that he isn't and to reevaluate earlier tests.

 

[Csafisher]

You need to watch the recent podcast with Litz on Erik Cortina's "Believe the Target" channel. Litz admits some of the claims he made years ago and even in his books have now changed due to more testing and advanced equipment that didn't exist earlier when claims were first made. They both are going to engage in another podcast directed entirely towards tuners which is going to be very good to say the least. Litz has also mentioned in other podcasts he will revisit the tuner testing because he had so many tuner experts point out his original testing with them was flawed in their opinion, and will undergo the retesting with their guidance. That speaks volumes to his merit and ethics to not be blinded by bias and is willing to retest and listen to those that are knowledgeable in areas that he isn't and to reevaluate earlier tests.

I watched it. I think litz is still very skeptical. He was being polite. But I’m excited to see what they come up with. Also, Eric is an F class shooter. That’s a very different animal compared to rimfire. Methods could be similar but the ammo is waaay different

 

[grauhanen]

Tuners work in one way only and that is to time the bullet's exit from the barrel. regardless of the description being harmonics, vibration whatever
at the natural sag/droop state, the barrel with move up and to the right from the torque of the bullet traveling down the barrel when the round is fired.
timing the bullet's exit at the right spot of that movement is what you are trying to do. FYI you want it at highest point that barrel will move to for the best exit point.

Lee

There is no such thing as 100 % positive compensation. tuning is all about bullet exit timing. you will find several exit points but only the one at the highest point the barrel is at (pointing up) will be the one that will be repeatable.

Lee, thanks for the descriptive explanation of this theory. Many explanations seem to give little clarity about the way in which a tuner works. Your explanation is the clearest exposition of this theory I've seen.

 

[CNC-Dude]

I watched it. I think litz is still very skeptical. He was being polite. But I’m excited to see what they come up with. Also, Eric is an F class shooter. That’s a very different animal compared to rimfire. Methods could be similar but the ammo is waaay different

Based on his observations and testing I'm sure he is skeptical still. But with the assistance of individuals that are more knowledgeable and have much more experience with tuners than he does, he can't help but see they do change things with a rifle. What he concludes from that is anyone's guess.
I wasn't really a skeptic about tuners but I wanted to see what they did. I watched Erik's video where he introduced his newest V2 design. From his video I copied and made my own that is almost exactly like his. I drew it up in Solidworks so I could more easily arrive the my predetermined tuner weight I had researched for a good while beforehand. My baseline targets without a tuner at 50 yards were ok but nothing to brag about. Once I added the tuner and went through all the settings, I found 6 settings that produced single hole 5 shot groups. Without the tuner, there weren't even 2 shots that were the same hole in a 5 shot group....whether it "works" or not, it definitely improves group sizes and repeats back to earlier tuner settings to again shoot single hole 5 shot groups because of anti-backlash features in it.

 

[MarkCZ]

It may be in centerfire but not rimfire. The same lot of Center X for instance can shoot 5 shot single holes at 50 yards(with or without a tuner), but give you 1 to 1-1/2 MOA at 100 yards. Competition guys often have to switch to Midas + or some other ammo to regain better groups at 75 or even 100 yards. So for rimfire it's more ammo related for distance than it is in centerfire....

You said in the post above about shooting 1 hole groups while tuning. you can do the same thing at longer ranges. I do it all the time at 200 yds. Take your setting and shoot at 100 and 200yds looking just for vertical, don't worry about wind. You can tune the vertical out by moving you tuner 2 marks at a time each way, then maybe just 1 marks.

 

[MarkCZ]

Based on his observations and testing I'm sure he is skeptical still. But with the assistance of individuals that are more knowledgeable and have much more experience with tuners than he does, he can't help but see they do change things with a rifle. What he concludes from that is anyone's guess.
I wasn't really a skeptic about tuners but I wanted to see what they did. I watched Erik's video where he introduced his newest V2 design. From his video I copied and made my own that is almost exactly like his. I drew it up in Solidworks so I could more easily arrive the my predetermined tuner weight I had researched for a good while beforehand. My baseline targets without a tuner at 50 yards were ok but nothing to brag about. Once I added the tuner and went through all the settings, I found 6 settings that produced single hole 5 shot groups. Without the tuner, there weren't even 2 shots that were the same hole in a 5 shot group....whether it "works" or not, it definitely improves group sizes and repeats back to earlier tuner settings to again shoot single hole 5 shot groups because of anti-backlash features in it.

if it improved your groups, it worked. You are becoming a believer in tuners

 

[Csafisher]

if it improved your groups, it worked. You are becoming a believer in tuners

You’re becoming the Joel olsteen for tuners

 

[CNC-Dude]

if it improved your groups, it worked. You are becoming a believer in tuners

I had seen too much evidence in both rimfire and centerfire that they worked. I was just cheap and wanted to experiment and play with one before I actually bought one. It was just to easy to make one to not try it out.

 

[Hi-NV Shooter]

I had seen too much evidence in both rimfire and centerfire that they worked. I was just cheap and wanted to experiment and play with one before I actually bought one. It was just to easy to make one to not try it out.

Before I bought my first tuner I used lead sinkers hung off the barrel with string. the RSO would make fun telling me I am at the wrong place the lake was 30 miles south.
but it proved to me adding weight to the barrel helped.

Lee

 

[MarkCZ]

You’re becoming the Joel olsteen for tuners

Thanks, when something works I don't have to wander why it works, just that it works. I don't know why guys want to hate on tuner. If guys don't like them, don't use them. Then you can catch up to the guys that use them.

 

[Csafisher]

Thanks, when something works I don't have to wander why it works, just that it works. I don't know why guys want to hate on tuner. If guys don't like them, don't use them. Then you can catch up to the guys that use them.

Did the PRS national and world champion use one? . Top PRS centerfire?

 

[iceng]

Tuners... hell of a thing.

Disclaimer: to my knowledge, this can NOT be "proven" (theorum -> peer reviewed -> accepted proof) as the maths involved is beyond the average human. (Paging Richard Feynman ?) The variables are just too random and immense to create a formula, or physical standard (datum or reference example). In saying that..
Im no artist (autist ?), so ill try to break it down.

We have amplitude, frequency, and duration.

We also need to understand the difference between waves, frequency, nodes, antinodes, and a few others. Heres a 9min video which will help you get up to speed, try not to go cross eyed, and pay attention.

Here is a VERY (overly simplified, so its actually incorrect, but we can build on it).

"As the bullet travels down the barrel, we can tune the barrels node to give us better accuracy".
Ok, so whats wrong with that, and what the hell does it actually mean ?

We cant "tune" a node, we observe its position and duration and amplitude.

Lets observe multiple at the same time.


As you can see, different strings vibrate differently.

BuT WaiT!! I hear you screech, THe SecONd VidEO DoESNt LooK liKE ThE FiRSt !
Yes, well spotted.
Camera shutters are taking a "snap shot" of its position, and you need to look up how shutters work. (amazingly easy video to watch, its worth it.. then come back here, and this is the 'duration' part in the formula).

While the 2 strings appear to be different, (for our example) they are actually the same.

In the slow motion video, it introduces a new term, osillation. (This will be important later).

Now lets get back to shooting.
You barrel moves when shooting. Thats not disputed. Does it oscillate, resonate, or vibrate ? I hope you said all 3.

Within this barrel movement, the bullet is travelling down the barrel and will eventually be spat into the world, to meet its quick demise on animal, steel or paper. Or in @308pirate 's life,.. dirt, becuse he missed (sorry, i couldnt resist a quick jab).

Imagine your finger on a guitar, or a capo which changes the pitch or tune.
A weight on the end of your barrel will change the frequency, and thus the nodes / antinodes at which your barrel can vibrate in. As you move your finger up and down a guitar string, you change its tone (note) and can hear it. Moving a tuner forward and backwards does exactly that.

As the bullet travels down the barrel, exit the muzzle and does its thing, you need it to exit on an antinode when its velocity (muzzle movement) is as near to zero as possible. For a few reasons this is potentially IMPOSSIBLE (bonus points if you know why) So... you want the best combination of amplitude X frequency X duration.

Look at the slow motion guitar string again. It has an oscillation. You may tune you bullet / barrel combo to a "node" and it shoots, but the next day (weather, temp, whatever) its slightly off. You are not in an optimum duration zone. See the string move hard one side, pause, come back again ? Thats what we want to exploit.

Not to completely screw everyone over but, barrels go all wibbly wobbly. They DONT do their thing in just one axis, and have harmonics too ! Then add in Pendulum geometry. Your muzzle does this, but while it does it, its vibrating, not smooth.

I think ive covered enough so most people get the idea of whats happening.

Now to really make it hard to understand. Know the phrase "energy in, energy out" ? Some is lost by heat, some sound, and other motion. We are talking about gun powder boom here.

Different powder charge is different energy, thus how the barrel moves, which also effects bullet speed. Im not going to theorise if they are connected or try to prove one way or the other, but at this point id say they are not connected. Meaning a soft load can produce a higher frequency node condition, and a marginally lower charge will completely change it, its NOT linear. Bullet will go in preportionally slower, but frequency can be higher. (Just an idea, not a theory !! But its got a sound basic in physics )

Ill summarise it all like this. There is too much going on to reliably say how a tuner works. What CAN be stated is that if the muzzle is moving from the peak of one antinode point to another antinode point, you will get a "flier".

There is so much here i could do in a 30min video with a white board and still not fully cover everything, its scary.

Also, barrel contour effects its ability to tune easily.. some contours are better than others. fight me.

 

[Hi-NV Shooter]

Also, barrel contour effects its ability to tune easily.. some contours are better than others. fight me.

Not only contours but what material the barrel is made of. I found CM different in tuning from SS

Lee

 

[iceng]

I would believe that, but never tested it. I had a carbon barrel once which was a bitch. I do know one guy with a carbon and said it was thr best shooting barrel he had. Go figure.

 

[BowChamp]

Tuners... hell of a thing.View attachment 8255239
Disclaimer: to my knowledge, this can NOT be "proven" (theorum -> peer reviewed -> accepted proof) as the maths involved is beyond the average human. (Paging Richard Feynman ?) The variables are just too random and immense to create a formula, or physical standard (datum or reference example). In saying that..
Im no artist (autist ?), so ill try to break it down.

We have amplitude, frequency, and duration.

We also need to understand the difference between waves, frequency, nodes, antinodes, and a few others. Heres a 9min video which will help you get up to speed, try not to go cross eyed, and pay attention.

Here is a VERY (overly simplified, so its actually incorrect, but we can build on it).

"As the bullet travels down the barrel, we can tune the barrels node to give us better accuracy".
Ok, so whats wrong with that, and what the hell does it actually mean ?

We cant "tune" a node, we observe its position and duration and amplitude.

Lets observe multiple at the same time.


As you can see, different strings vibrate differently.

BuT WaiT!! I hear you screech, THe SecONd VidEO DoESNt LooK liKE ThE FiRSt !
Yes, well spotted.
Camera shutters are taking a "snap shot" of its position, and you need to look up how shutters work. (amazingly easy video to watch, its worth it.. then come back here, and this is the 'duration' part in the formula).

While the 2 strings appear to be different, (for our example) they are actually the same.

In the slow motion video, it introduces a new term, osillation. (This will be important later).

Now lets get back to shooting.
You barrel moves when shooting. Thats not disputed. Does it oscillate, resonate, or vibrate ? I hope you said all 3.

Within this barrel movement, the bullet is travelling down the barrel and will eventually be spat into the world, to meet its quick demise on animal, steel or paper. Or in @308pirate 's life,.. dirt, becuse he missed (sorry, i couldnt resist a quick jab).

Imagine your finger on a guitar, or a capo which changes the pitch or tune.
A weight on the end of your barrel will change the frequency, and thus the nodes / antinodes at which your barrel can vibrate in. As you move your finger up and down a guitar string, you change its tone (note) and can hear it. Moving a tuner forward and backwards does exactly that.

As the bullet travels down the barrel, exit the muzzle and does its thing, you need it to exit on an antinode when its velocity (muzzle movement) is as near to zero as possible. For a few reasons this is potentially IMPOSSIBLE (bonus points if you know why) So... you want the best combination of amplitude X frequency X duration.

Look at the slow motion guitar string again. It has an oscillation. You may tune you bullet / barrel combo to a "node" and it shoots, but the next day (weather, temp, whatever) its slightly off. You are not in an optimum duration zone. See the string move hard one side, pause, come back again ? Thats what we want to exploit.

Not to completely screw everyone over but, barrels go all wibbly wobbly. They DONT do their thing in just one axis, and have harmonics too ! Then add in Pendulum geometry. Your muzzle does this, but while it does it, its vibrating, not smooth.

I think ive covered enough so most people get the idea of whats happening.

Now to really make it hard to understand. Know the phrase "energy in, energy out" ? Some is lost by heat, some sound, and other motion. We are talking about gun powder boom here.

Different powder charge is different energy, thus how the barrel moves, which also effects bullet speed. Im not going to theorise if they are connected or try to prove one way or the other, but at this point id say they are not connected. Meaning a soft load can produce a higher frequency node condition, and a marginally lower charge will completely change it, its NOT linear. Bullet will go in preportionally slower, but frequency can be higher. (Just an idea, not a theory !! But its got a sound basic in physics )

Ill summarise it all like this. There is too much going on to reliably say how a tuner works. What CAN be stated is that if the muzzle is moving from the peak of one antinode point to another antinode point, you will get a "flier".

There is so much here i could do in a 30min video with a white board and still not fully cover everything, its scary.

Also, barrel contour effects its ability to tune easily.. some contours are better than others. fight me.

Thank you Sir!!

 

[BowChamp]

Not only contours but what material the barrel is made of. I found CM different in tuning from SS

Lee

Wouldn't be hard to believe.

Kinda like knife blade steel, a lot of different blends. Some flex and some break.

 

[Hi-NV Shooter]

Wouldn't be hard to believe.

Kinda like knife blade steel, a lot of different blends. Some flex and some break.

Yup, CM is harder and stiffer steel than SS.

Lee

 

[Hi-NV Shooter]

I would believe that, but never tested it. I had a carbon barrel once which was a bitch. I do know one guy with a carbon and said it was thr best shooting barrel he had. Go figure.

I wasn't saying they were not good barrels only needs a different approach then SS barrel.

Lee

 

[Hi-NV Shooter]

Much has been said about barrel harmonics, vibration and other more elaborate descriptions on how a barrel reacts as a bullet travel through the bore. based off my experience and observations when tuning a barrel that bullet exit point of when and where the bullet will exit the barrel as it moves is critical on how it will shoot.
It is also my belief again based off my experience and observations that the barrel moves in an elliptical pattern. because of right hand torque induced from the rifling the movement is from left to right or clockwise. below is an illustration of the barrel's movement and where the best bullet exit points are. again, this is based purely off my experience and observations. with no measured (equipment recorded) proof except my targets and how my rifles shoot.

Lee

 

[BowChamp]

Much has been said about barrel harmonics, vibration and other more elaborate descriptions on how a barrel reacts as a bullet travel through the bore. based off my experience and observations when tuning a barrel that bullet exit point of when and where the bullet will exit the barrel as it moves is critical on how it will shoot.
It is also my belief again based off my experience and observations that the barrel moves in an elliptical pattern. because of right hand torque induced from the rifling the movement is from left to right or clockwise. below is an illustration of the barrel's movement and where the best bullet exit points are. again, this is based purely off my experience and observations. with no measured (equipment recorded) proof except my targets and how my rifles shoot.

Lee

View attachment 8259713

Mr. Lee

Thanks for the pic....nice, simple and easy to follow. Probably not technical enough for some. LOL!!

I shot a 6 card ARA Outdoor Unlimited Tournament yesterday with a new lot of ammo. Getting ready for State and figured I better try it out first. Used the same tuner setting I've been using and everything went great.

Thanks

 

[BowChamp]

Tuners... hell of a thing.View attachment 8255239
Disclaimer: to my knowledge, this can NOT be "proven" (theorum -> peer reviewed -> accepted proof) as the maths involved is beyond the average human. (Paging Richard Feynman ?) The variables are just too random and immense to create a formula, or physical standard (datum or reference example). In saying that..
Im no artist (autist ?), so ill try to break it down.

We have amplitude, frequency, and duration.

We also need to understand the difference between waves, frequency, nodes, antinodes, and a few others. Heres a 9min video which will help you get up to speed, try not to go cross eyed, and pay attention.

Here is a VERY (overly simplified, so its actually incorrect, but we can build on it).

"As the bullet travels down the barrel, we can tune the barrels node to give us better accuracy".
Ok, so whats wrong with that, and what the hell does it actually mean ?

We cant "tune" a node, we observe its position and duration and amplitude.

Lets observe multiple at the same time.


As you can see, different strings vibrate differently.

BuT WaiT!! I hear you screech, THe SecONd VidEO DoESNt LooK liKE ThE FiRSt !
Yes, well spotted.
Camera shutters are taking a "snap shot" of its position, and you need to look up how shutters work. (amazingly easy video to watch, its worth it.. then come back here, and this is the 'duration' part in the formula).

While the 2 strings appear to be different, (for our example) they are actually the same.

In the slow motion video, it introduces a new term, osillation. (This will be important later).

Now lets get back to shooting.
You barrel moves when shooting. Thats not disputed. Does it oscillate, resonate, or vibrate ? I hope you said all 3.

Within this barrel movement, the bullet is travelling down the barrel and will eventually be spat into the world, to meet its quick demise on animal, steel or paper. Or in @308pirate 's life,.. dirt, becuse he missed (sorry, i couldnt resist a quick jab).

Imagine your finger on a guitar, or a capo which changes the pitch or tune.
A weight on the end of your barrel will change the frequency, and thus the nodes / antinodes at which your barrel can vibrate in. As you move your finger up and down a guitar string, you change its tone (note) and can hear it. Moving a tuner forward and backwards does exactly that.

As the bullet travels down the barrel, exit the muzzle and does its thing, you need it to exit on an antinode when its velocity (muzzle movement) is as near to zero as possible. For a few reasons this is potentially IMPOSSIBLE (bonus points if you know why) So... you want the best combination of amplitude X frequency X duration.

Look at the slow motion guitar string again. It has an oscillation. You may tune you bullet / barrel combo to a "node" and it shoots, but the next day (weather, temp, whatever) its slightly off. You are not in an optimum duration zone. See the string move hard one side, pause, come back again ? Thats what we want to exploit.

Not to completely screw everyone over but, barrels go all wibbly wobbly. They DONT do their thing in just one axis, and have harmonics too ! Then add in Pendulum geometry. Your muzzle does this, but while it does it, its vibrating, not smooth.

I think ive covered enough so most people get the idea of whats happening.

Now to really make it hard to understand. Know the phrase "energy in, energy out" ? Some is lost by heat, some sound, and other motion. We are talking about gun powder boom here.

Different powder charge is different energy, thus how the barrel moves, which also effects bullet speed. Im not going to theorise if they are connected or try to prove one way or the other, but at this point id say they are not connected. Meaning a soft load can produce a higher frequency node condition, and a marginally lower charge will completely change it, its NOT linear. Bullet will go in preportionally slower, but frequency can be higher. (Just an idea, not a theory !! But its got a sound basic in physics )

Ill summarise it all like this. There is too much going on to reliably say how a tuner works. What CAN be stated is that if the muzzle is moving from the peak of one antinode point to another antinode point, you will get a "flier".

There is so much here i could do in a 30min video with a white board and still not fully cover everything, its scary.

Also, barrel contour effects its ability to tune easily.. some contours are better than others. fight me.

Sir,
I'm in for the White Board if you ever get the time!!

Thanks

 

[Hi-NV Shooter]

Mr. Lee

Thanks for the pic....nice, simple and easy to follow. Probably not technical enough for some. LOL!!

I shot a 6 card ARA Outdoor Unlimited Tournament yesterday with a new lot of ammo. Getting ready for State and figured I better try it out first. Used the same tuner setting I've been using and everything went great.

Thanks

You're welcome. Good luck in the tournament. I just got back yesterday from shooting a state tournament. I used a new untested CX lot never shot in competition and only the second time used in my ARA UL rifle. tuner hasn't been moved in 8 years. very good match only 75 points separated 1st and 2nd place. had two bad targets.
The new regional sales manager for Lapua was there he never saw a RFBR match. his background is PRS, the MD set up a rifle and rest and he shot an ARA factory target. I believe it was 2150?

Lee

 

[BowChamp]

You're welcome. Good luck in the tournament. I just got back yesterday from shooting a state tournament. I used a new untested CX lot never shot in competition and only the second time used in my ARA UL rifle. tuner hasn't been moved in 8 years. very good match only 75 points separated 1st and 2nd place. had two bad targets.
The new regional sales manager for Lapua was there he never saw a RFBR match. his background is PRS, the MD set up a rifle and rest and he shot an ARA factory target. I believe it was 2150?

Lee

It's funny how that works.....Lapua sees a much larger picture when it comes to 22LR, than just RFBR. We are just a part of what they do.

I was ten shots into this lot of Midas+ going into yesterday's Tournament, I only have two bricks. I also reached my next goal of shooting all cards above 2000 on a 6 card match.
The wind beat my competition and I beat the wind.

Thanks!!

 

[Hi-NV Shooter]

It's funny how that works.....Lapua sees a much larger picture when it comes to 22LR, than just RFBR. We are just a part of what they do.

I was ten shots into this lot of Midas+ going into yesterday's Tournament, I only have two bricks. I also reached my next goal of shooting all cards above 2000 on a 6 card match.
The wind beat my competition and I beat the wind.

Thanks!!

Good for you! FYI, you never beat the wind, it's when you understand it is when you can do good.

I always wish for wind and cold as I seem to be able to do better in those conditions.

Lee

 

[RH45]

I just bought a CZ 453 that belonged to a 90 year old man, that gave up benchrest shooting. It came with a tuner on it, and some Lapua Midas+ I ASSUMED the tuner was set for the Lapua, but, I got almost exactly the same groups at 50 yards, and 100 yards with CCI SV. I don't have a clue as how to set a tuner without going through a case of ammunition.

 

[CNC-Dude]

Tuner settings can even change with different lots of the same ammo. It can be a constantly changing tuner adjustment to stay on top of things, or some claim once they find a setting that shoots the best, they never change it. Your results may vary.....

 

[BowChamp]

I just bought a CZ 453 that belonged to a 90 year old man, that gave up benchrest shooting. It came with a tuner on it, and some Lapua Midas+ I ASSUMED the tuner was set for the Lapua, but, I got almost exactly the same groups at 50 yards, and 100 yards with CCI SV. I don't have a clue as how to set a tuner without going through a case of ammunition.

Not saying I can help...........I do have some questions that may help others to help you.

What is almost exactly? What expectation of group size do you have?

What tuner do you have? There are several types on the market.

A picture of your setup may help.

 

[BowChamp]

Good for you! FYI, you never beat the wind, it's when you understand it is when you can do good.

I always wish for wind and cold as I seem to be able to do better in those conditions.

Lee

I took this same lot of ammo to our State Tournament and finished 2nd with my highest match agg. up to this point. I only got about half the wind I was hoping for which was about twice as much as most of the shooters wanted. LOL!!

Side note.....I'm still shooting the same tuner setting.


Have you ever dealt with thermals and bullets impacting high.

Thanks!!

 

[RH45]

Not saying I can help...........I do have some questions that may help others to help you.

What is almost exactly? What expectation of group size do you have?

What tuner do you have? There are several types on the market.

A picture of your setup may help.

 

[RH45]

CZ453, with 6oz set trigger
My expectations were less than 1/2” at 50 yards. I would get 3 in a 1/4” group, and 2 fliers

 

[Hi-NV Shooter]

I took this same lot of ammo to our State Tournament and finished 2nd with my highest match agg. up to this point. I only got about half the wind I was hoping for which was about twice as much as most of the shooters wanted. LOL!!

Side note.....I'm still shooting the same tuner setting.


Have you ever dealt with thermals and bullets impacting high.

Thanks!!

Sometimes it is just the other shooters day. I had the same thing a couple weeks ago, but it was on me made some bad calls. the other shooter who won we are about equal, so I made the mistakes, and he didn't. he agg. 2245.8 and I 2200.
getting back to your question, I assume you mean shots that just pop up with no explanation. I had that happen but not sure it was thermals or just wind hitting berms or even someone's flag at a different angle.

Lee

 

[BowChamp]

CZ453, with 6oz set trigger
My expectations were less than 1/2” at 50 yards. I would get 3 in a 1/4” group, and 2 fliers

1/2 inch seems reasonable for a factory rifle....anything under 1/2 inch I'd consider a plus. What kind of front and rear rest are you using?

That looks to be a Harrell's tuner. Very popular with alot of shooters and works very good. You're not alone, every shooter wants to be able to find the best tune without shooting up a bunch of ammo.

 

[Hi-NV Shooter]

Tuner settings can even change with different lots of the same ammo. It can be a constantly changing tuner adjustment to stay on top of things, or some claim once they find a setting that shoots the best, they never change it. Your results may vary.....

Tuner settings shouldn't change unless the setting is not at the optimum setting. POI can change with increase and decrease of velocity, but the POI should stay within the same vertical plane. if you change lots and start to see change in horizontal POI you are not at the optimum setting.

Lee

 

[BowChamp]

Sometimes it is just the other shooters day. I had the same thing a couple weeks ago, but it was on me made some bad calls. the other shooter who won we are about equal, so I made the mistakes, and he didn't. he agg. 2245.8 and I 2200.
getting back to your question, I assume you mean shots that just pop up with no explanation. I had that happen but not sure it was thermals or just wind hitting berms or even someone's flag at a different angle.

Lee

Yes Sir, when the wind slows up I start seeing a heavy mirage on the target, my shot goes high. I've started picking up on it and just hold low to compensate. It's been working out for me. I've had others call it a mirage boil. The way it looks does remind me of water at a slow boil.....you can see a current moving in it.

 

[RH45]

1/2 inch seems reasonable for a factory rifle....anything under 1/2 inch I'd consider a plus. What kind of front and rear rest are you using?

That looks to be a Harrell's tuner. Very popular with alot of shooters and works very good. You're not alone, every shooter wants to be able to find the best tune without shooting up a bunch of ammo.

It says 4000 on it. I did a search and it seems like they were hand made by a guy. I’m probably just going to wait until spring to play with it. I’m never going to be shooting a match in cold weather.

 

[Williwaw]

Yes Sir, when the wind slows up I start seeing a heavy mirage on the target, my shot goes high. I've started picking up on it and just hold low to compensate. It's been working out for me. I've had others call it a mirage boil. The way it looks does remind me of water at a slow boil.....you can see a current moving in it.

Right on. I find mirage one of the more interesting aspects to try to master. I'm still quite challenged to pick up on switches in horizontal mirage which is a faster indicator than flags. Given I only ever buy blind lots I need some wind to level the playing field.