Does this scope tunnel on the lower setting? I'm sorely tempted to sell my Hensoldt and get this scope with the MSR reticle but tunneling really bugs me.
Rifle Scopes Tunneling on 5-25 SB
- Thread starter EventHorizon
- Start date
Re: Tunneling on 5-25 SB
It does and while I am a Hensoldt fan I'll still give you my honest opinion. I wouldn't let the tunneling stop me from buying it. It tunnels at only the lowest part of the range, like 6x to 5x if I remember right. It's not bad at all and since I rarely go under 7x I can't remember ever really noticing it when I owned mine.
It does and while I am a Hensoldt fan I'll still give you my honest opinion. I wouldn't let the tunneling stop me from buying it. It tunnels at only the lowest part of the range, like 6x to 5x if I remember right. It's not bad at all and since I rarely go under 7x I can't remember ever really noticing it when I owned mine.
Re: Tunneling on 5-25 SB
Thanks. What do you think of the MSR vs H2CMR.
Whilst I really like the physical attributes of the Hensoldt I keep thinking about these reticles. S&B made some smart choices here I think.
I might just have to buy one, compare and then off load the loser...
Thanks. What do you think of the MSR vs H2CMR.
Whilst I really like the physical attributes of the Hensoldt I keep thinking about these reticles. S&B made some smart choices here I think.
I might just have to buy one, compare and then off load the loser...
Re: Tunneling on 5-25 SB
Jasonk is spot on...I have Henny and S&Bs. I don't have a problem with tunneling unless I'm trying to see it. I just bought a H2CMR and will tell you it is a great reticle. I love the P4F but this is a step up.
Jasonk is spot on...I have Henny and S&Bs. I don't have a problem with tunneling unless I'm trying to see it. I just bought a H2CMR and will tell you it is a great reticle. I love the P4F but this is a step up.
Re: Tunneling on 5-25 SB
Excuse my ignorance but someone explain "tunneling" for me. I have noticed on some scopes at the lowest power setting the edges are not as clear as the center. Is that the same thing?
Excuse my ignorance but someone explain "tunneling" for me. I have noticed on some scopes at the lowest power setting the edges are not as clear as the center. Is that the same thing?
Re: Tunneling on 5-25 SB
On a scope like this with a 5x mag ratio the FOV on the lowest mag setting should be 5x that of the FOV on the highest mag setting. When this does not occur, the FOV reaches a point where the mag level decreases but the FOV does not increase. It ends up like you're looking through a key hole (in extreme cases).
Certain scopes are known for not having this problem - Hensoldt and Premier. S&B does suffer from this although the new not-yet released 3-20 S&B apparently does not.
On a scope like this with a 5x mag ratio the FOV on the lowest mag setting should be 5x that of the FOV on the highest mag setting. When this does not occur, the FOV reaches a point where the mag level decreases but the FOV does not increase. It ends up like you're looking through a key hole (in extreme cases).
Certain scopes are known for not having this problem - Hensoldt and Premier. S&B does suffer from this although the new not-yet released 3-20 S&B apparently does not.
Re: Tunneling on 5-25 SB
Like Jason said the tunneling is a non issue but is always brought up because it's looked at as one of the cons on the scope. It's never been an issue in my use and as Jason said I rarely go below 8x.
I haven't used the MSR but it's basically the P4F with another mil grid so it's a good reticle. I got a 5-25 with the H2CMR a little while back and really like the reticle. I posted pics of the P4F and H2CMR next to each other.
Like Jason said the tunneling is a non issue but is always brought up because it's looked at as one of the cons on the scope. It's never been an issue in my use and as Jason said I rarely go below 8x.
I haven't used the MSR but it's basically the P4F with another mil grid so it's a good reticle. I got a 5-25 with the H2CMR a little while back and really like the reticle. I posted pics of the P4F and H2CMR next to each other.
Re: Tunneling on 5-25 SB
Also, more of the reticle is lit on the H2CMR as opposed to the other models which are only the center crosshair. If that's important to you.
Also, more of the reticle is lit on the H2CMR as opposed to the other models which are only the center crosshair. If that's important to you.
Re: Tunneling on 5-25 SB
FOV simulation on 5x, no tunneling on the left (76 mrad FOV), tunneling on the right (53 mrad FOV). It's up to the individual whether this is a "non issue". If you don't dial below 7-8x, it certainly is, since you are not using the affected magnification range. If you need a good overview of the surroundings of your target, it very well may be an issue. After all, more FOV is the primary reason for using lower magnification in the first place.
FOV simulation on 5x, no tunneling on the left (76 mrad FOV), tunneling on the right (53 mrad FOV). It's up to the individual whether this is a "non issue". If you don't dial below 7-8x, it certainly is, since you are not using the affected magnification range. If you need a good overview of the surroundings of your target, it very well may be an issue. After all, more FOV is the primary reason for using lower magnification in the first place.
Re: Tunneling on 5-25 SB
Yup David we have gone round and round on this already. I am speaking from actual use and that's a simulated picture. When I have used it on lower than 7x the "tunneling" has not been an issue. Still had plenty of field of view. Closer to 58 mils than 53 in the actual scope.
Here's an actual picture of a P4F at 5x
Yup David we have gone round and round on this already. I am speaking from actual use and that's a simulated picture. When I have used it on lower than 7x the "tunneling" has not been an issue. Still had plenty of field of view. Closer to 58 mils than 53 in the actual scope.
Here's an actual picture of a P4F at 5x
Re: Tunneling on 5-25 SB
Your image shows a FOV of ~55 mrad as far as I can tell. Published specs are subject to slight variations, and if the specs they are publishing are a little conservative in this respect, good on them.
The last time we went "round and round" on this, you posted the same picture and I told you that it only serves to cover up the actual effect of tunneling rather than show it. By taking a picture and cropping away the edges, you create the same image you would get at ~7,5x (only with slightly lower resolution, which is lost in web presentation anyway because of the low res of the camera/image).
What you are doing is this:
Cropping away the black "tunnel" part of the image and enlarging the cropped portion relative to what an image of a scope with bigger FOV would look like, completely removing any clues as to what the tunneling looks like.
Now a comparable image without tunneling would look like this:
Side by side:
Doesn't quite match when it comes to perceived magnification, does it?
These images are not comparable due to different cropping and different reproduction scale. This is why I did the original side by side, because that is the best way to really show what is going on, short of having the scopes in front of one's eyes.
Yes, there is more to a scope than tunneling or no tunneling, but this thread is about tunneling, and I thus think it is reasonable to show what tunneling looks like rather than purposefully <span style="font-style: italic">not</span> showing what it looks like.
Your image shows a FOV of ~55 mrad as far as I can tell. Published specs are subject to slight variations, and if the specs they are publishing are a little conservative in this respect, good on them.
The last time we went "round and round" on this, you posted the same picture and I told you that it only serves to cover up the actual effect of tunneling rather than show it. By taking a picture and cropping away the edges, you create the same image you would get at ~7,5x (only with slightly lower resolution, which is lost in web presentation anyway because of the low res of the camera/image).
What you are doing is this:
Cropping away the black "tunnel" part of the image and enlarging the cropped portion relative to what an image of a scope with bigger FOV would look like, completely removing any clues as to what the tunneling looks like.
Now a comparable image without tunneling would look like this:
Side by side:
Doesn't quite match when it comes to perceived magnification, does it?
These images are not comparable due to different cropping and different reproduction scale. This is why I did the original side by side, because that is the best way to really show what is going on, short of having the scopes in front of one's eyes.
Yes, there is more to a scope than tunneling or no tunneling, but this thread is about tunneling, and I thus think it is reasonable to show what tunneling looks like rather than purposefully <span style="font-style: italic">not</span> showing what it looks like.
Re: Tunneling on 5-25 SB
David - is the scope on the right in your first post a S&B 5-25?
I can live with that level of tunneling for a scope used in F/TR and competition shooting. Hell, soldiers use them for shooting bad guys.
Rob - thanks for your pics, they highlight the H2CMR nicely.
David - is the scope on the right in your first post a S&B 5-25?
I can live with that level of tunneling for a scope used in F/TR and competition shooting. Hell, soldiers use them for shooting bad guys.
Rob - thanks for your pics, they highlight the H2CMR nicely.
Re: Tunneling on 5-25 SB
David I didn't crop anything. I am, admitingly in many posts, not very good at taking pics through the scope. Yes there may be more black around the edges but the picture of what you can see is more important than more black.
No problem EH. I have been using an S&B 5-25 since 2006 so I have plenty of time behind the scope sending thousands of rounds down range. You won't feel handicapped by the tunneling from 7x down to 5x.
David I didn't crop anything. I am, admitingly in many posts, not very good at taking pics through the scope. Yes there may be more black around the edges but the picture of what you can see is more important than more black.
No problem EH. I have been using an S&B 5-25 since 2006 so I have plenty of time behind the scope sending thousands of rounds down range. You won't feel handicapped by the tunneling from 7x down to 5x.
Re: Tunneling on 5-25 SB
Rob, I don't think David is suggesting you're doing anything naughty, and I certainly don't think so anyway (whatever that's worth!). His reference to the crop is not showing the total periphery of the scope view such that the picture frames the scope view as in his pics.
Regardless, for what I would want a high mag scope for, the level of tunneling is irrelevant at the lower mag and the more important aspect of reticle choice is where I need to make a decision. I want something that I can use for a good long time to become effective in shooting comps.
If only NF would release some details of 'The Beast' then I'd be able to make a decision now.
Rob, I don't think David is suggesting you're doing anything naughty, and I certainly don't think so anyway (whatever that's worth!). His reference to the crop is not showing the total periphery of the scope view such that the picture frames the scope view as in his pics.
Regardless, for what I would want a high mag scope for, the level of tunneling is irrelevant at the lower mag and the more important aspect of reticle choice is where I need to make a decision. I want something that I can use for a good long time to become effective in shooting comps.
If only NF would release some details of 'The Beast' then I'd be able to make a decision now.
Re: Tunneling on 5-25 SB
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: David S.</div><div class="ubbcode-body">FOV simulation on 5x, no tunneling on the left (76 mrad FOV), tunneling on the right (53 mrad FOV). It's up to the individual whether this is a "non issue". If you don't dial below 7-8x, it certainly is, since you are not using the affected magnification range. If you need a good overview of the surroundings of your target, it very well may be an issue. After all, more FOV is the primary reason for using lower magnification in the first place.
</div></div>
Wow, quite a difference.
I don't think that the effects of tunneling at low power can so easily dismissed as a 'non issue', given the noticeably larger, more useable & appealing field of view.
If a shooter never dials down that low, then it IS a non-issue. But for others who do, the difference is very relevant...
As was stated, shooters will decide that for themselves, but I'll take all the FOV at low power I can get. I'm not a big match shooter, but it doesn't take one to realize the advantage of having a wide field of view for acquiring & engaging close in or moving targets...
If one were to consider these two photos in a honest "blind taste test" poll, I can't see many shooters picking the cropped FOV as preferable, in & of itself? Obviously, there's more to the equation in deciding on a high end scope purchase than this comparison. But those photos are certainly worthy of consideration...
Thanks for the apples to apples comparison photos, David S.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: David S.</div><div class="ubbcode-body">FOV simulation on 5x, no tunneling on the left (76 mrad FOV), tunneling on the right (53 mrad FOV). It's up to the individual whether this is a "non issue". If you don't dial below 7-8x, it certainly is, since you are not using the affected magnification range. If you need a good overview of the surroundings of your target, it very well may be an issue. After all, more FOV is the primary reason for using lower magnification in the first place.
Wow, quite a difference.
I don't think that the effects of tunneling at low power can so easily dismissed as a 'non issue', given the noticeably larger, more useable & appealing field of view.
If a shooter never dials down that low, then it IS a non-issue. But for others who do, the difference is very relevant...
As was stated, shooters will decide that for themselves, but I'll take all the FOV at low power I can get. I'm not a big match shooter, but it doesn't take one to realize the advantage of having a wide field of view for acquiring & engaging close in or moving targets...
If one were to consider these two photos in a honest "blind taste test" poll, I can't see many shooters picking the cropped FOV as preferable, in & of itself? Obviously, there's more to the equation in deciding on a high end scope purchase than this comparison. But those photos are certainly worthy of consideration...
Thanks for the apples to apples comparison photos, David S.
Re: Tunneling on 5-25 SB
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: knockemdown</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Thanks for the apples to apples comparison photos, David S.</div></div>
I will say again that these are not <span style="font-style: italic">photos</span> taken through the scope, this is a CAD/Photoshop job. It does show what is going on though, and if I had both scopes at hand I could probably take pictures to the same effect with some coniderable effort concerning camera positioning/alignment behind the ocular.
I know some people who don't like the result may like to point out that these are not "real" images so they don't show "the truth", but those people would probably also dispute the difference in overall length between scopes if they were only given CAD models. FOV is a cold hard fact and it can be measured and displayed just like length, weight and adjustment range of a scope can be measured and displayed comparatively.
I encourage anyone who isn't happy with these images to make a video like this one that shows the view through the scope while zooming from 25x to 5x with a fixed camera position behind the ocular.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: EventHorizon</div><div class="ubbcode-body">David - is the scope on the right in your first post a S&B 5-25?</div></div>
See above statement, but yes, the pictured FOV on the right does represent the published value for that scope.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: knockemdown</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Thanks for the apples to apples comparison photos, David S.</div></div>
I will say again that these are not <span style="font-style: italic">photos</span> taken through the scope, this is a CAD/Photoshop job. It does show what is going on though, and if I had both scopes at hand I could probably take pictures to the same effect with some coniderable effort concerning camera positioning/alignment behind the ocular.
I know some people who don't like the result may like to point out that these are not "real" images so they don't show "the truth", but those people would probably also dispute the difference in overall length between scopes if they were only given CAD models. FOV is a cold hard fact and it can be measured and displayed just like length, weight and adjustment range of a scope can be measured and displayed comparatively.
I encourage anyone who isn't happy with these images to make a video like this one that shows the view through the scope while zooming from 25x to 5x with a fixed camera position behind the ocular.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: EventHorizon</div><div class="ubbcode-body">David - is the scope on the right in your first post a S&B 5-25?</div></div>
See above statement, but yes, the pictured FOV on the right does represent the published value for that scope.
Re: Tunneling on 5-25 SB
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: David S.</div><div class="ubbcode-body">FOV <span style="font-weight: bold">simulation on 5x</span>
</div></div>
Knockemdown those aren't photos but simulations. Mine was a photo but with the black around the actual sight picture not there. Not done intentionally but just the way the picture was.
Event, yes he was.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: David S.</div><div class="ubbcode-body">FOV <span style="font-weight: bold">simulation on 5x</span>
</div></div>
Knockemdown those aren't photos but simulations. Mine was a photo but with the black around the actual sight picture not there. Not done intentionally but just the way the picture was.
Event, yes he was.
Re: Tunneling on 5-25 SB
Understood, Rob & thanks to both you & David for clarifying. This was the 1st time I'd seen these images...
Ok, so they are not actual photos, but they are accurately representative of the measured difference in FOV between the two scopes on 5X?
Understood, Rob & thanks to both you & David for clarifying. This was the 1st time I'd seen these images...
Ok, so they are not actual photos, but they are accurately representative of the measured difference in FOV between the two scopes on 5X?
Re: Tunneling on 5-25 SB
I have used a SxB 5-25 a few times and tunnelling did not seem to be a problem
Ron I like your/the actual photos and you do a better job with photos than I do.
If this is a scope for F TR and you want a SxB I would go with the second focal plane version that has 50X as top setting instead of a FFP reticule
For field work FFP would be great choice and 25 top power is max I would use
I have used a SxB 5-25 a few times and tunnelling did not seem to be a problem
Ron I like your/the actual photos and you do a better job with photos than I do.
If this is a scope for F TR and you want a SxB I would go with the second focal plane version that has 50X as top setting instead of a FFP reticule
For field work FFP would be great choice and 25 top power is max I would use
Re: Tunneling on 5-25 SB
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rob01</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: David S.</div><div class="ubbcode-body">FOV <span style="font-weight: bold">simulation on 5x</span>
</div></div>
Knockemdown those aren't photos but simulations. Mine was a photo but with the black around the actual sight picture not there. Not done intentionally but just the way the picture was.
Event, yes he was. </div></div>
Well that's a shame if he was. I've met David and respect him. The reality is that whatever the short comings, each scope - Schmidt, Hensoldt, Premier etc - has areas where they shine and others where they fall behind.
From Rob's pics, the level of tunneling and FOV at low mag does not seem to be catastrophic at all and are enough for me to want to go and see how I can find one to see for myself. I'm glad that Premier have a better FOV at the same mag level - it'll motivate others to improve their designs to match which I believe the S&B 3-20 has.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tactical</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
If this is a scope for F TR and you want a SxB I would go with the second focal plane version that has 50X as top setting instead of a FFP reticule
For field work FFP would be great choice and 25 top power is max I would use </div></div>
I'm trying to basically see if I can use one scope for multiple purposes as I enter comps and raise my skill level (from a currently non-existent level).
If the MSR reticle is basically the P4F with extra ranging, then it seems it'll have enough mag for me to enjoy F/TR, fine enough reticle to be useful and have the ability to partake in field comps.
I know it won't be enough for me to excel in F/TR but it should be good for me to learn, improve and if F/TR seems like a comp style I want to pursue seriously then I can save the pennies for more suited optic and still have the 5-25 MSR for field comps.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rob01</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: David S.</div><div class="ubbcode-body">FOV <span style="font-weight: bold">simulation on 5x</span>
</div></div>
Knockemdown those aren't photos but simulations. Mine was a photo but with the black around the actual sight picture not there. Not done intentionally but just the way the picture was.
Event, yes he was. </div></div>
Well that's a shame if he was. I've met David and respect him. The reality is that whatever the short comings, each scope - Schmidt, Hensoldt, Premier etc - has areas where they shine and others where they fall behind.
From Rob's pics, the level of tunneling and FOV at low mag does not seem to be catastrophic at all and are enough for me to want to go and see how I can find one to see for myself. I'm glad that Premier have a better FOV at the same mag level - it'll motivate others to improve their designs to match which I believe the S&B 3-20 has.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tactical</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
If this is a scope for F TR and you want a SxB I would go with the second focal plane version that has 50X as top setting instead of a FFP reticule
For field work FFP would be great choice and 25 top power is max I would use </div></div>
I'm trying to basically see if I can use one scope for multiple purposes as I enter comps and raise my skill level (from a currently non-existent level).
If the MSR reticle is basically the P4F with extra ranging, then it seems it'll have enough mag for me to enjoy F/TR, fine enough reticle to be useful and have the ability to partake in field comps.
I know it won't be enough for me to excel in F/TR but it should be good for me to learn, improve and if F/TR seems like a comp style I want to pursue seriously then I can save the pennies for more suited optic and still have the 5-25 MSR for field comps.
Re: Tunneling on 5-25 SB
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: knockemdown</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Understood, Rob & thanks to both you & David for clarifying. This was the 1st time I'd seen these images...
Ok, so they are not actual photos, but they are accurately representative of the measured difference in FOV between the two scopes on 5X?</div></div>
Well, they show one scope with a 76 mrad FOV and one with a 53 mrad FOV pointed at the same target at the same magnification. That is as good a representation of what the view through those scopes looks like as you will get on the internet.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rob01</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Not done intentionally but just the way the picture was.
Event, yes he was.</div></div>
I do admit that I was a little brisk with my explanation because it is the second time this exact image was brought up in this exact context and I already tried to explain why it is not meaningful at all here. Nothing wrong with the image and I didn't mean to imply that it was "manipulated" in any way, it just does not contain any useful information about the absence or presence of tunneling. Maybe I did a poor job at explaining this the first time, so I tried again. And I will try again if you bring up the very same image in the very same context yet again.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: knockemdown</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Understood, Rob & thanks to both you & David for clarifying. This was the 1st time I'd seen these images...
Ok, so they are not actual photos, but they are accurately representative of the measured difference in FOV between the two scopes on 5X?</div></div>
Well, they show one scope with a 76 mrad FOV and one with a 53 mrad FOV pointed at the same target at the same magnification. That is as good a representation of what the view through those scopes looks like as you will get on the internet.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rob01</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Not done intentionally but just the way the picture was.
Event, yes he was.</div></div>
I do admit that I was a little brisk with my explanation because it is the second time this exact image was brought up in this exact context and I already tried to explain why it is not meaningful at all here. Nothing wrong with the image and I didn't mean to imply that it was "manipulated" in any way, it just does not contain any useful information about the absence or presence of tunneling. Maybe I did a poor job at explaining this the first time, so I tried again. And I will try again if you bring up the very same image in the very same context yet again.
Re: Tunneling on 5-25 SB
I envy those who can take quality "thru the scope" photos, I sure can't!
Considering that, as long as the FOV values are accurately represented, it would seem that David's 'simulated' images offer a fair visual comparison to those who don't have two $3K scopes laying around...
Whether or not the tunneling effect & FOV difference (~23mrad almost 7 feet @ 100yds) between the scopes is considered a "problem" remains subjective to the shooter. That point could be argued back & forth ad-nauseum, but the measured FOV values speak for themselves...
Thanks again.
I envy those who can take quality "thru the scope" photos, I sure can't!
Considering that, as long as the FOV values are accurately represented, it would seem that David's 'simulated' images offer a fair visual comparison to those who don't have two $3K scopes laying around...
Whether or not the tunneling effect & FOV difference (~23mrad almost 7 feet @ 100yds) between the scopes is considered a "problem" remains subjective to the shooter. That point could be argued back & forth ad-nauseum, but the measured FOV values speak for themselves...
Thanks again.
Re: Tunneling on 5-25 SB
I can only give my opinion and experience from being an actual shooter and using the product being discussed at matches around the country and at home for over 5 years now. Numbers and figures are fine and give an accurate numerical representation of what is there but sometimes when you look at just the numbers you miss the point.
Event and Knockemdown, choose whichever scope you feel fits your needs.
I can only give my opinion and experience from being an actual shooter and using the product being discussed at matches around the country and at home for over 5 years now. Numbers and figures are fine and give an accurate numerical representation of what is there but sometimes when you look at just the numbers you miss the point.
Event and Knockemdown, choose whichever scope you feel fits your needs.
Re: Tunneling on 5-25 SB
Rob - I'm grateful for your input and pics, they've been the main reason I've started looking into S&Bs.
Rob - I'm grateful for your input and pics, they've been the main reason I've started looking into S&Bs.
Re: Tunneling on 5-25 SB
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rob01</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I can only give my opinion and experience from being an actual shooter and using the product being discussed at matches around the country and at home for over 5 years now. Numbers and figures are fine and give an accurate numerical representation of what is there but sometimes when you look at just the numbers you miss the point. </div></div>
Well sir, I've only put a few thousand rounds under the 'other' product discussed, in a recreational capacity. So, although I may be woefully under-qualified as a tactical match shooter, I don't feel that offering a differing opinion from yours somehow equates that I've "missed the point", as you seem to have implied.
back to my hole now...
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Rob01</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I can only give my opinion and experience from being an actual shooter and using the product being discussed at matches around the country and at home for over 5 years now. Numbers and figures are fine and give an accurate numerical representation of what is there but sometimes when you look at just the numbers you miss the point. </div></div>
Well sir, I've only put a few thousand rounds under the 'other' product discussed, in a recreational capacity. So, although I may be woefully under-qualified as a tactical match shooter, I don't feel that offering a differing opinion from yours somehow equates that I've "missed the point", as you seem to have implied.
back to my hole now...
Re: Tunneling on 5-25 SB
Wasn't a slam on you at all Knockemdown. The main question was about the S&B until another scope was brought into it. My point was that when you look through the scope and actually use it all the spec numbers don't make much real world difference. If you took it as a slam on you then I am sorry.
Wasn't a slam on you at all Knockemdown. The main question was about the S&B until another scope was brought into it. My point was that when you look through the scope and actually use it all the spec numbers don't make much real world difference. If you took it as a slam on you then I am sorry.
Re: Tunneling on 5-25 SB
The day SxB is not considered a great rifle scope is the day we had one hell of a Pardigum Shift in Optics Design and scopes as we know them will be way way different. Right now they are one of the Elite Rifle Scopes
The day SxB is not considered a great rifle scope is the day we had one hell of a Pardigum Shift in Optics Design and scopes as we know them will be way way different. Right now they are one of the Elite Rifle Scopes
Re: Tunneling on 5-25 SB
Maybe David should walk across the office and knock Andy out of the chair for designing such a sub par optic. LOL
Maybe David should walk across the office and knock Andy out of the chair for designing such a sub par optic. LOL
Re: Tunneling on 5-25 SB
No harm, no foul then, Rob1. Appreciated & my apologies for the sidetrack...
No harm, no foul then, Rob1. Appreciated & my apologies for the sidetrack...
Re: Tunneling on 5-25 SB
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: EventHorizon</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Does this scope tunnel on the lower setting? I'm sorely tempted to sell my Hensoldt and get this scope with the MSR reticle but tunneling really bugs me. </div></div>
Yes it does, it starts to show around 7x. BUT, I dont find this too big problem. Its not CQB scope but gets job done if needed. For instance, 2 years ago buddy shot top result in sniper competition "el presidente" 25 meters stage against competitors with non tunnelizing optics. Bud was shooting with 338 TRG.
About MSR, you cant go wrong with it IMO. Its P4F look-alike but then not same at all. Hairline thickness is between P4L and P4F, works far better than P4F with low powers and/or dusk. Center cross is updated to 1mil. And I guess everybody understand advantages of separate milling L-scale and 400-1300meter stadia which is based on upper body dimensions.
It may look bit busy in pics, but its not in practice.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: EventHorizon</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Does this scope tunnel on the lower setting? I'm sorely tempted to sell my Hensoldt and get this scope with the MSR reticle but tunneling really bugs me. </div></div>
Yes it does, it starts to show around 7x. BUT, I dont find this too big problem. Its not CQB scope but gets job done if needed. For instance, 2 years ago buddy shot top result in sniper competition "el presidente" 25 meters stage against competitors with non tunnelizing optics. Bud was shooting with 338 TRG.
About MSR, you cant go wrong with it IMO. Its P4F look-alike but then not same at all. Hairline thickness is between P4L and P4F, works far better than P4F with low powers and/or dusk. Center cross is updated to 1mil. And I guess everybody understand advantages of separate milling L-scale and 400-1300meter stadia which is based on upper body dimensions.
It may look bit busy in pics, but its not in practice.
Re: Tunneling on 5-25 SB
Event not sure if you saw it but Mile High has 5-25s with the MSR reticle in them in stock if you wanted one
http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthre...004#Post2742004
Event not sure if you saw it but Mile High has 5-25s with the MSR reticle in them in stock if you wanted one
http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthre...004#Post2742004
Re: Tunneling on 5-25 SB
See, my whole issue is, if all it's doing is taking a 7 or 8x picture and making it smaller, then it's really not 5x, it's just 7 or 8x but harder to see,.....which doesn't make any sense. If the FOV is the same on 8x as it is on 5x then why would you ever go down to 5x? 5x would therefor be an almost unusable magnification at that point, and saying it's a 5-25 power scope is borderline false advertisement.
I'm not saying that <span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="font-style: italic">IS</span></span> the case, as I've never looked through a 5-25, but if what I'm reading is correct, then it would seem having the 5x option is almost a waste of time.
Someone please correct me if I'm wrong here.
See, my whole issue is, if all it's doing is taking a 7 or 8x picture and making it smaller, then it's really not 5x, it's just 7 or 8x but harder to see,.....which doesn't make any sense. If the FOV is the same on 8x as it is on 5x then why would you ever go down to 5x? 5x would therefor be an almost unusable magnification at that point, and saying it's a 5-25 power scope is borderline false advertisement.
I'm not saying that <span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="font-style: italic">IS</span></span> the case, as I've never looked through a 5-25, but if what I'm reading is correct, then it would seem having the 5x option is almost a waste of time.
Someone please correct me if I'm wrong here.
Re: Tunneling on 5-25 SB
Go look at this much more recent thread for video
http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Main=274327&Number=3118437#top
Go look at this much more recent thread for video
http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Main=274327&Number=3118437#top
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