- Thread starter steve podleski
- Start date
Good stuff. The first clip over the water looks like the old Premier scopes on the M110. Venom has 4 blades, and not much lower range than the old Huey, nice. I need to pay more attention next time I'm on base. Interesting about the night equipped sea hawk. I'll have to ask my neighbors about that as they fly the sea hawk. PS Marine Harrier sqdn are transitioning to F35 by 2026.
- Nov 3, 2010
- 8,674
- 17,626
The Marines have had night capabilities added to HCAS birds for a long time. This bird was on support in 03
One of the sniper comps at Benning a few years ago revealed a weakness in helicopter shooting skills. Everyone was all about upgrading after that.
And the Coast Guard led the way in some aspects with its “Hitron”’system and training.
This level of skill should be expected these days as interdiction shooting became a high-priority training skill 6-7 years ago.
Sirhr
Last edited:
That didn’t look like insane precision to me.
Ask the Africans who kidnapped Captain Phillips.
Movie had them firing from the stern of USS Bainbridge, and all with .308 rifles of some sort (SR25s and a HK417 I think). I presume that's how it happened for real.
From the deck of a rocking ship.
well, two rocking ships or whatever the kidnappers and hostage were in.
That was a boat under tow in mostly calm waters.
But were the kidnappers outside of that lifeboat? Wasn't it mostly enclosed?
Something about the official story does not add up.
They do this thing where they constantly monitor and replace gear. Since they do hang on single lines out of helicopters fairly often.
That line also has an insane breaking strength.
- Nov 3, 2010
- 8,674
- 17,626
The 7/16 kernmantle rope is rated for 7900 pounds tensile strength. Typically is is a double section of rope for rappelling operations as well.
A boat in motion creates a wake, which would cause significant movement in the lifeboat. What is "mostly calm"? Is it like "mostly peaceful"?
It doesn't take large waves to create quite a bit of movement on a boat. A ship the size of a DDG is still affected by, what seems like, small waves.
Apparently, the shoot was actually a moment of opportunity, they were observing and all the tango's happend to expose themselves at the same time.
Actually its no big deal ,did some helo shooting in July, from what i could tell it was the helo crew chief that was most nervous looking at us folks hooking and unhooking lines in and out of position in mid-flight while we rotated shooter spotter positions (Huey is a small bird) , got reminded to double the tie in points for next time , you do lean slightly out of the chopper to get some stability on that rope ,and are able follow the target through a wider arc ,i was on the bolt action and really wished, a semi-auto for this. Its not some amazing accuracy shooting either, you are shooting at torso targets at 300-400m and not hitting with every shoot,
When posible you are flown closer to the targets , in the vid when you see the folks in squeezing rapid fire and even full auto you know shots are going all over the place ,''minute of dingy'' and then some. Its also quite dependent on the chopper, Huey is more of a rattle can than the larger SuperPuma and the pilots need to keep it moving at a slight pace , much less vibration than in hover ,you would rather shoot with a bit of lead than rattle around in hovet. It took pilots a couple of passes before they got into sync with the sniper's pairs so these things are as much practice for the pilots as they are for the snipers.
Last edited:
^^^ Minute of Evinrude is not far off the necessary standard!
These guys are shooting for interdiction... not hostage rescue.
And the difficulty of a moving target when you are in a moving/vibrating helicopter (or a boat deck) is substantial!
The Maersk Alabama was also only about a 70 yard shot. They 'reeled' the lifeboat slowly in. So, yes, it was challenging to coordinate all the shooters. And lots of bouncing and bobbing. But the distance involved was not really a challenge. The coordination to get all the shooters on target and released simultaneously, however. was pretty mind-blowing! Tier-1 indeed!
Unless were were under 'Scout' when it happened and everything was lost, there should be a big thread here. I remember there was some good info and discussions. Necro away!
Cheers,
Sirhr
These guys are shooting for interdiction... not hostage rescue.
And the difficulty of a moving target when you are in a moving/vibrating helicopter (or a boat deck) is substantial!
The Maersk Alabama was also only about a 70 yard shot. They 'reeled' the lifeboat slowly in. So, yes, it was challenging to coordinate all the shooters. And lots of bouncing and bobbing. But the distance involved was not really a challenge. The coordination to get all the shooters on target and released simultaneously, however. was pretty mind-blowing! Tier-1 indeed!
Unless were were under 'Scout' when it happened and everything was lost, there should be a big thread here. I remember there was some good info and discussions. Necro away!
Cheers,
Sirhr
heck the one or two rope stages i've done in PRS were insanely hard, and that's with a target that isn't moving and bouncing and me on firm ground. of course i think the targets were a wee bit smaller, but still.
I’ve done it a fair bit, never once felt like I was going to fall out. Laws of physics does a good job of pinning you to the floor when banking, the rest you’re just sitting there and little different than up on a tower or on the ground. We always stayed tied in mid deck on the Hueys, only moved around in the ‘46.
My step-father took a bad injury as a gunner in VN, bird next to them got smoked, threw him out the door and gunner’s belt kept him from going all the way to the jungle. Screwed his stomach up for many years, ulcer tear that never could heal and took two decades of Navy and VA docs giving him
and a private doctor one appointment and test to figure it out.
Anyhow, shooting from a bird is always minute of man inside 300m, usually closer. There’s nothing much precision about it, a hit is a hit.
My step-father took a bad injury as a gunner in VN, bird next to them got smoked, threw him out the door and gunner’s belt kept him from going all the way to the jungle. Screwed his stomach up for many years, ulcer tear that never could heal and took two decades of Navy and VA docs giving him
and a private doctor one appointment and test to figure it out. Anyhow, shooting from a bird is always minute of man inside 300m, usually closer. There’s nothing much precision about it, a hit is a hit.
Gunner's belt, my friend. No worries....its done every day.
And I agree....tough place to shoot from but I don't get the "insane" part of "precision" in what was shown.
Ever been in a boat under tow by a much larger boat? The tow rope locks the boats together and take away most of the relative motion. And the wake is a lot calmer right behind the larger vessel. It cancels out a lot of the sea effects for the smaller for a few hundred yards. I imagine the OOD could tune the speed to minimize motions further. Still good shooting assuming it happened that way but nothing like two uncoupled boats not astern.
There is a significant difference between a rigged tow and an expedient tow.
I was a crew member on the towing vessel, towing a 188 foot vessel that lost power in poor weather. We had to tow it south to keep them out of the trough.
Yeah, I know what a tow looks like.
That being said, I'm sure it was pretty calm. The movie, of course, made it head shots. Who knows, the range was short, and likely pretty easy shots.
Last edited:
It's never "easy" shooting at another human being with the lone intent of killing them, regardless of the technical circumstances of the shot. Can it be mechanical with intensive training? Sure. Survivalistic? Absolutely. But still isn't anything I would consider remotely easy.
Based on what I have seen, some of the best shooters from a helo!
HITRON https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helicopter_Interdiction_Tactical_Squadron
https://special-ops.org/us-coast-guard-hitron/
HITRON https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helicopter_Interdiction_Tactical_Squadron
https://special-ops.org/us-coast-guard-hitron/
So here's the actual lifeboat from the hijacking, currently on display at the National Navy UDT-SEAL Museum down at Fort Pierce.
Like @Oldloser said, it's mostly enclosed. The movie has it like this: Phillips was able to tell the Navy which seat he was sitting in, so with a plan of the lifeboat they could figure a way to either take out the hijackers or give Phillips an opening to escape without harming the good Captain. USS Bainbridge is towing the lifeboat, they've got Muse (the leader) off for "negotiations", aka dragging his gullible ass to the brig under guard.
Now, the movie shows the SEALs trying their damnedest to line up shots on the three remaining bad guys in the lifeboat. "A is go. B is go. C is go.", kinda thing. The bad guys keep moving or going just out of sight, although they have no idea that they're being constantly targeted. One is in the lifeboat's pilot chair. He's easy. One is kinda to one side, usually visible. The third is actually behind that central support between the two forward-facing windows. So Bainbridge is towing the boat and the SEALs can only get a clean shot on two most of the time, because Bad Guy #3 is being jittery and not presenting himself the way they need. Now, the lifeboat's bobbing a bit, swaying a bit, but the Bainbridge is a destroyer. May be moving but it's not like the old days when a sailing ship's pitch and roll would mean the difference between a cannonball slamming into the magazine vs the foremast, plus they're aiming astern.
So the SEAL commander's like "If we shoot #1 and #2, #3 is gonna kill Phillips. He's already jumpy, threatened multiple times, holding a gun on the guy. We gotta take them all at once." Then he decides "Haul on the tow line". Which they do. It jerks the boat forward, Bad Guy #3 stumbles into view for a SPLIT SECOND, Commander goes "EXECUTE!" and they do one hell of a nice job taking all three with headshots.
I have little trouble believing they WERE headshots, because that's about all you're gonna see in a boat like that. The lifeboat set in the movie was just about a 1:1 recreation of the interior of the actual boat, with alterations made for the camera etc, not unlike how they did with Das Boot. It's cramped as hell in there even on camera. There's not room enough for chest or body shots not nohow and punching through the lifeboat with something stronger than a 7.62 would probably fuck up Phillips too.
Like @Oldloser said, it's mostly enclosed. The movie has it like this: Phillips was able to tell the Navy which seat he was sitting in, so with a plan of the lifeboat they could figure a way to either take out the hijackers or give Phillips an opening to escape without harming the good Captain. USS Bainbridge is towing the lifeboat, they've got Muse (the leader) off for "negotiations", aka dragging his gullible ass to the brig under guard.
Now, the movie shows the SEALs trying their damnedest to line up shots on the three remaining bad guys in the lifeboat. "A is go. B is go. C is go.", kinda thing. The bad guys keep moving or going just out of sight, although they have no idea that they're being constantly targeted. One is in the lifeboat's pilot chair. He's easy. One is kinda to one side, usually visible. The third is actually behind that central support between the two forward-facing windows. So Bainbridge is towing the boat and the SEALs can only get a clean shot on two most of the time, because Bad Guy #3 is being jittery and not presenting himself the way they need. Now, the lifeboat's bobbing a bit, swaying a bit, but the Bainbridge is a destroyer. May be moving but it's not like the old days when a sailing ship's pitch and roll would mean the difference between a cannonball slamming into the magazine vs the foremast, plus they're aiming astern.
So the SEAL commander's like "If we shoot #1 and #2, #3 is gonna kill Phillips. He's already jumpy, threatened multiple times, holding a gun on the guy. We gotta take them all at once." Then he decides "Haul on the tow line". Which they do. It jerks the boat forward, Bad Guy #3 stumbles into view for a SPLIT SECOND, Commander goes "EXECUTE!" and they do one hell of a nice job taking all three with headshots.
I have little trouble believing they WERE headshots, because that's about all you're gonna see in a boat like that. The lifeboat set in the movie was just about a 1:1 recreation of the interior of the actual boat, with alterations made for the camera etc, not unlike how they did with Das Boot. It's cramped as hell in there even on camera. There's not room enough for chest or body shots not nohow and punching through the lifeboat with something stronger than a 7.62 would probably fuck up Phillips too.
Last edited:
Oklahoma man recalls experience as sniper in Vietnam
Steve Suttles’ accomplishments as a Marine sniper in Vietnam are legendary. His 63 confirmed kills place him sixth among Vietnam War-era snipers, according to snipercentral.com, a website dedicated t…
www.oklahoman.com
I was lucky enough to do a little training with Steve. Super good guy, the article touches on some of your comments from Steves perspective. You guys have a tough job. We appreciate what you do or did. Thank you!
I would agree, they probably have much more practice than anyone else.
We have seen similar working SF police snipers, some of them had 20 to 50 fold more time and practice shots fired from helo than military SF snipers and while in most fields military snipers were easily cut above the police , in shooting from the helo LE guys were considerably ahead
Similar threads
