Using Bushing Dies???!

[FamilyMan]

So I have been scouring this site reading every thread I could find about bushing dies and expander balls and I finally broke down and bought one and a comp seater. As I read more I started reading about run out and using 2 bushings to step down the sizing to prevent this. So here is my game plan and I am soliciting your opinions to make sure I am on the right track. So my fired case neck measures at .277 (.243 win) and my loaded case neck is .271-.2715 so I ordered the .270, and .269 bushings for use in my FL die setting my shoulder back .001-.002. Now I just ordered a Neck bushing die to use to step down the neck to help minimize runout, I plan to use a .273 bushing to step it down which would give a .004 - .003 step down each sizing. Does that all sound about right? Also I do plan to use the carbide expander ball an yes I know it can add to runout but I do believe the neck ID is more important than the neck OD and since I don't neck turn I believe just kissing the inside of the neck with the carbide ball makes more sense and that is why I want to limit runout as much as possible in the other steps . Does this all sound like I am on the right track? Or am I off on my thinking?
Thanks for the feedback

 

[milo 2.0]

Re: Using Bushing Dies???!

Sounds to me like you're on the right track.

If it was me, I wouldn't stair step it down, just do it, the end result will be the same. Shoot for ".002" neck tension, should be good to go.
Am not sure about the ball part either, bushing dies I try not to use it. I have the carbide ball on my neck sizer, to straighten dinged mouths only. Never heard of kissing the inner mouth to avoid runout, makes some sense, the carbide ball will be better than the standard ball, nothing sticking to it.
Good luck.

 

[MALLARD]

Re: Using Bushing Dies???!

i wouldnt use any kind of expander... ever. (unless im neck turning or something.)

i never heard of using 2 bushing to reduce runout. I think its bullshit. Low runout is a result of good case necks (uniform thickness),and good technique. Lubing the insides of your case mouths help. I use powdered mica.

but i never heard of 2 bushings. I also have a bersin reloading tool that contacts the bullet at the ogive and is capable of adjusting runout. If your becoming anal , i would suggest you buy one.

 

[FamilyMan]

Re: Using Bushing Dies???!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: milo-2</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Sounds to me like you're on the right track.

If it was me, I wouldn't stair step it down, just do it, the end result will be the same. Shoot for ".002" neck tension, should be good to go.
Am not sure about the ball part either, bushing dies I try not to use it. I have the carbide ball on my neck sizer, to straighten dinged mouths only. Never heard of kissing the inner mouth to avoid runout, makes some sense, the carbide ball will be better than the standard ball, nothing sticking to it.
Good luck.</div></div>
The theory behinds the ball kissing the inside of the neck is not minimize runout it is to move any imperfections/ differences in neck thickness to the outside rather than to the inside of the neck like what a bushing will do. This is to have more uniform neck tension. Now moving those differences to the OD will be measured as runout. Now if you neck turn your thicknesses are more uniform so you wouldn't have to worry about it. Am I off base on this info? I believe iwas one of the guts from Lapua that posted this as a reply to another thread but for the life of me I can't find it again.

 

[milo 2.0]

Re: Using Bushing Dies???!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: FamilyMan</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: milo-2</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Sounds to me like you're on the right track.

If it was me, I wouldn't stair step it down, just do it, the end result will be the same. Shoot for ".002" neck tension, should be good to go.
Am not sure about the ball part either, bushing dies I try not to use it. I have the carbide ball on my neck sizer, to straighten dinged mouths only. Never heard of kissing the inner mouth to avoid runout, makes some sense, the carbide ball will be better than the standard ball, nothing sticking to it.
Good luck.</div></div>
The theory behinds the ball kissing the inside of the neck is not minimize runout it is to move any imperfections/ differences in neck thickness to the outside rather than to the inside of the neck like what a bushing will do. This is to have more uniform neck tension. Now moving those differences to the OD will be measured as runout. Now if you neck turn your thicknesses are more uniform so you wouldn't have to worry about it. Am I off base on this info? I believe iwas one of the guts from Lapua that posted this as a reply to another thread but for the life of me I can't find it again. </div></div>

I said it makes some sense, just never thought that way myself.
You are probably on to something, there is no neck turning at my house.

 

[Deadshot2]

Re: Using Bushing Dies???!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: milo-2</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: FamilyMan</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: milo-2</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Sounds to me like you're on the right track.

If it was me, I wouldn't stair step it down, just do it, the end result will be the same. Shoot for ".002" neck tension, should be good to go.
Am not sure about the ball part either, bushing dies I try not to use it. I have the carbide ball on my neck sizer, to straighten dinged mouths only. Never heard of kissing the inner mouth to avoid runout, makes some sense, the carbide ball will be better than the standard ball, nothing sticking to it.
Good luck.</div></div>
The theory behinds the ball kissing the inside of the neck is not minimize runout it is to move any imperfections/ differences in neck thickness to the outside rather than to the inside of the neck like what a bushing will do. This is to have more uniform neck tension. Now moving those differences to the OD will be measured as runout. Now if you neck turn your thicknesses are more uniform so you wouldn't have to worry about it. Am I off base on this info? I believe iwas one of the guts from Lapua that posted this as a reply to another thread but for the life of me I can't find it again. </div></div>

I said it makes some sense, just never thought that way myself.
You are probably on to something, there is no neck turning at my house. </div></div>

Expanding for uniform neck tension does make a lot of sense, especially if not neck turning. Using a ball expander is not the best for this purpose however. OK, you may want to do so if a one step process is important but the sacrifice for "time" will be accuracy of the "process".

I would suggest a mandrel expander die would be a far more accurate way to accomplish the desired uniform neck tension. That is as uniform as one can get when they don't take any steps to make sure the material in the case necks is uniform. Uneven or thicker material will yield uneven neck tension as seen by the bullet, regardless of the uniformity of ID.

 

[FamilyMan]

Re: Using Bushing Dies???!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Deadshot2</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Uneven or thicker material will yield uneven neck tension as seen by the bullet, regardless of the uniformity of ID.</div></div>
That's interesting I didn't know that nor thought about it. Thanks

 

[bward]

Re: Using Bushing Dies???!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: FamilyMan</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: milo-2</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Sounds to me like you're on the right track.

If it was me, I wouldn't stair step it down, just do it, the end result will be the same. Shoot for ".002" neck tension, should be good to go.
Am not sure about the ball part either, bushing dies I try not to use it. I have the carbide ball on my neck sizer, to straighten dinged mouths only. Never heard of kissing the inner mouth to avoid runout, makes some sense, the carbide ball will be better than the standard ball, nothing sticking to it.
Good luck.</div></div>
The theory behinds the ball kissing the inside of the neck is not minimize runout it is to move any imperfections/ differences in neck thickness to the outside rather than to the inside of the neck like what a bushing will do. This is to have more uniform neck tension. Now moving those differences to the OD will be measured as runout. Now if you neck turn your thicknesses are more uniform so you wouldn't have to worry about it. Am I off base on this info? I believe iwas one of the guts from Lapua that posted this as a reply to another thread but for the life of me I can't find it again.</div></div>

You are spot on. If your necks vary in thickness and you run them into a bushing, the bushing will make the outside of the case the shape of the bushing (perfect circle). So if you have uneven neck thickness this means the inside of the neck will now have varying thickness. You can solve this by having the expander move the varying thickness back to the outside of the neck, or you can wait until you seat your bullet and let it do it for you. Obviously seating a bullet into a neck with varying thickness on the inside can lead to accuracy problems.

 

[boltgunluvr]

Re: Using Bushing Dies???!

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: bward</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: FamilyMan</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: milo-2</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Sounds to me like you're on the right track.

If it was me, I wouldn't stair step it down, just do it, the end result will be the same. Shoot for ".002" neck tension, should be good to go.
Am not sure about the ball part either, bushing dies I try not to use it. I have the carbide ball on my neck sizer, to straighten dinged mouths only. Never heard of kissing the inner mouth to avoid runout, makes some sense, the carbide ball will be better than the standard ball, nothing sticking to it.
Good luck.</div></div>
The theory behinds the ball kissing the inside of the neck is not minimize runout it is to move any imperfections/ differences in neck thickness to the outside rather than to the inside of the neck like what a bushing will do. This is to have more uniform neck tension. Now moving those differences to the OD will be measured as runout. Now if you neck turn your thicknesses are more uniform so you wouldn't have to worry about it. Am I off base on this info? I believe iwas one of the guts from Lapua that posted this as a reply to another thread but for the life of me I can't find it again.</div></div>

You are spot on. If your necks vary in thickness and you run them into a bushing, the bushing will make the outside of the case the shape of the bushing (perfect circle). So if you have uneven neck thickness this means the inside of the neck will now have varying thickness. You can solve this by having the expander move the varying thickness back to the outside of the neck, or you can wait until you seat your bullet and let it do it for you. Obviously seating a bullet into a neck with varying thickness on the inside can lead to accuracy problems. </div></div>

This is why I still like the simplicity of the Lee collet NS die. I know....I know....it's a whole different beast, but gotta appreciate the straight forward simple approach and not having to deal with bushing.

 

[adam3999]

Re: Using Bushing Dies???!

FYI -- the concept of stepping down twice with a bushing die is covered here at Germán Salazar's shooting blog. It's worth a read, as well as many of his other great articles.

 

[BuzzBoss915]

Re: Using Bushing Dies???!

That Salazar is amazing! I just have to wonder why a guy like that would be using unturned brass, in the first place? Maybe he doesn't, maybe it was just for purposes of illustration? But, I'm not buying another die just so I can use a bushing in the preferred order. BB