Advanced Marksmanship Using Toes to Push Prone w/ Pod Claws

45.308

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First time out today with Pod Claws, them being taller than standard Harris bipod changed my learned position somewhat and I found myself up on my toes digging and pushing to load up the claws, worked great and I had virtually no rifle hop. Legs were together, not on an angle but I will fix this.

Guess like all sports, if it works it works even though the mechanics may not be perfect.
 

Sterling Shooter

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Re: Using Toes to Push Prone w/ Pod Claws

Any technique which will provide control over the rifle, until recoil subsides while in a muscularly relaxed position, will help you get the job done with the desired result-shots right-in-there. The bipod however may not be as good as other artificial supports, such as sand bags or sling, since, to maintain control over the rifle, from the time the trigger is pulled until the bullet clears the bore, the bipod, unlike other supports, requires muscular effort to get a consistent, predictable recoil pattern. In other words, the bipod works great until the trigger is pulled, but then it undermines good shooting.
 

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    Re: Using Toes to Push Prone w/ Pod Claws

    Rifles don't hop... they recoil erratically off of poor body positions. Claws are a crutch used by many to over come a bad position behind the rifle.

    if it works for you, great, but I would recommend learning the proper way to shoot including how to line up behind a rifle, drive it through recoil so you don't lose the sight picture, because when done correctly there is no hop, bounce, or any of those other "problems" and suddenly you start find out its not a gun or gear issue but a shooter induced problem.

    and SS, I would contend you can be every bit as accurate with a bipod if you drive it correctly. It doesn't require muscular effort, you can load it without pushing... muscular effort mean you're doing it wrong.
     

    Greg Langelius *

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    Re: Using Toes to Push Prone w/ Pod Claws

    I agree completely that muscular effort is counterproductive.

    Muscular effort betrays the principle that the natural point of aim is a position (or more properly, <span style="font-style: italic">the</span> position) where the body come to complete rest.

    Without that, it is an unnatural position which must be rebuilt after each shot, while properly enacted, it is the position that requires deliberate effort to alter.

    If your natural rest position does not point the sights directly at the target, it must be altered until is does.

    Only in this way does the NPA become the position the body naturally returns to after recoil subsides.

    Any other position adds stress and strain to the shooting process, and ultimately (and often quickly) exhausts the shooter to the point where they cannot maintain a steady aim.

    Shooting aids, like bipods, bags, or rests, can be of aid only to the degree that they assist in astablishing and maintaining the NPA.

    Greg
     

    Graham

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    Re: Using Toes to Push Prone w/ Pod Claws

    Use your upper body to load the bi-pod, and relax both feet.

    You can stay on your toes (while prone) and shift your heels to move the rifle left and right, but that works better for Biathalon, when recoil is negligible and the target is a horizontal row of circles closely spaced.

    I don't use a muzzle brake with a .308 because I don't need one. If you think you need a brake on a .308 to aid spotting your hits, then go back to fundamentals and modify your NPA.
     

    Greg Langelius *

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    Re: Using Toes to Push Prone w/ Pod Claws

    I've been mildly confused by this technique, or at least I was until I had the opportunity to read a writeup yesterday about the technique on another forum. Nothing lacking on this forum, but sometimes a second opinion helps, and for me, this is one of those cases.

    Given the two scenarios, one with the bipod legs loaded forward, and the other without, different performance issues apply.

    Without the preloading, during the small initial portion of the recoil cycle where the bullet is actually transiting the barrel length, the bipod feet will (must, by definition) drag across the supporting surface. This journey is almost certainly accompanied by skips, jerks, clearing small obstacles, etc. Such eventualities can do nothing good to the rifle's support, and will upset the POI almost without any doubt. In any instance, it's essentially impossible to duplicate consistently with successive shots.

    When the bipod is preloaded forward, the initial recoil length corresponds to a flexing of the support legs. This flexing follows a predictable and repeatable pathway, and provides the least possible degree of upset to the bullet's POI, and its practically a given that the bullet will have exited the muzzle before recoil can drive the rifle beyond the small span of the bipod flexing involved.

    As of today, I think I can make a reasonable argument in favor of this technique, and now include myself within the ranks of true believers.

    Greg
     

    BOLTRIPPER

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    Re: Using Toes to Push Prone w/ Pod Claws

    here is what i use.....my daughter thinks red works best for the month of august ....
    MVC-005S-2.jpg
     

    45.308

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    Re: Using Toes to Push Prone w/ Pod Claws

    I should have stated I am pigeon toed and in a relaxed state my feet make a V so it is hard for me to lay my feet flat, toes out, it hurts. Up on toes, upside down V is natural. I did find pushing off my feet was counter productive in keeping the rifle steady on target, body was tense.

    Rifle use to recoil muzzle right and I pulled my head but have learned and now it recoils back keeping check weld, I am learning just trying to refine my technique.

    Thanks
     

    Sterling Shooter

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    Re: Using Toes to Push Prone w/ Pod Claws

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

    and SS, I would contend you can be every bit as accurate with a bipod if you drive it correctly. It doesn't require muscular effort, you can load it without pushing... muscular effort mean you're doing it wrong. </div></div>

    Perhaps, with technique, it's possible to be every bit as accurate with a bipod, yet, for me, results have been consistently better from sand bags. Obviously, as I'm sure you'll agree, this tit for tat is pretty much moot, since bipods clearly serve to support a steady position, certainly, better than bone alone; and, when alternative artificial support, although possibly better, is not available, or appropriate to "tactical" requirements, or field expediency, the bipod is very handy.

     

    Stan Owens

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    Re: Using Toes to Push Prone w/ Pod Claws

    You can try to lay both feet flat and point your toes in the same directon...right or left. This sometimes works for people who are pigeon toed.
     

    Victor Co Heather

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    Re: Using Toes to Push Prone w/ Pod Claws

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BOLTRIPPER</div><div class="ubbcode-body">here is what i use.....my daughter thinks red works best for the month of august ....
    [url="http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f236/BOLTRIPPER/MVC-005S-"]http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f236/BOLTRIPPER/MVC-005S-[/url]</div></div>

    Now I've seen it all.
     

    45.308

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    Re: Using Toes to Push Prone w/ Pod Claws

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Stan Owens</div><div class="ubbcode-body">You can try to lay both feet flat and point your toes in the same directon...right or left. This sometimes works for people who are pigeon toed. </div></div>

    Thanks, I will give this a try and see what happens. My toes are always pointing down and its hard for me to spread my legs for a triangle support. Thanks again.
     

    BlackStar

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    Re: Using Toes to Push Prone w/ Pod Claws

    Body position and use of a “technique” is shooter dependent. No person is built exactly the same, so expecting one “technique” to work for all shooters is a common misleading among trainers/ coaches/ shooters.

    Disabilities and body structure is the determining factors in how a shooter will build a position that is consistent and reliable. I personally know an Army NG (CW5) who is very well known in the competitive community, who has pins in his neck. He can no longer get directly behind a rifle and is forced to shoot from a 45 degree angle behind the rifle, due to his inability to achieve a proper cheek to stock weld. I can guarantee he will still fire outstanding shot groups and is very consistent.

    The point is that we all can’t use a common technique, due to our own personal body structure and or disabilities.

    Now if you can build a position with out the use of muscle and or build a natural point of aim with out straining, you will always have more consistency in your shooting. Learning to do so through your own disabilities or body structure is the key to having optimal performance while firing.

    I would recommend getting back to basics in the since of building your natural position behind the rifle. Find the most comfortable position, where you can build a natural point of aim with out the use of muscle. Then ingrain that in to your mental check list, when building your firing position. Write down everything you do to achieve the position, so that you have a reminder to help with building it in to permanent memory. It will take thousands of dry runs and hours of getting behind the rifle, but the end result will be a better more consistent position behind the rifle.

    just my .02
     

    Lowlight

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    Re: Using Toes to Push Prone w/ Pod Claws

    people with disabilities or otherwise have to start with some basic understandings...

    first, there are shooting disciplines that will not be as limiting to someone with a disability, however tactical shooting is not one of them. Tactical shooting implies something different from say, F Class, one thing, Time and Opportunity, you don't always get that when you start down the tactical road, so you should consider something with more time and opportunity to fine tune positions and problems. Tactical shooting is about engaging the target right the fuck now, repeatedly. So if you can't work to that means you need to consider other forms.

    second, when seeking out professional instruction they need to be forward up front about the disabilities or be willing to work through them as many can, however I will say that most don't even begin to try. They pay thousands of dollars for a trip to a facility only to do it their way from the start, then blame everything on their disability, some of which really, aren't near as limiting as others. The issue is in the "trying"... now some people want to be forced out of the box, and made to try, others aren't even going to be bothered. Something I never quite understood.

    if you're gonna blame a rifle for jumping off target you should at least be educated in the fact, rifles only react a certain way, they are an "If & Then" operation. "If" you do this - "Then" this will happen _____ . It's not as if the rifles decide on their own to fuck the shooter and throw rounds out of the black. Its the arrogance of their owners who are unwilling to accept responsibility for their actions, not saying anyone in this thread is doing that, only that is what we see.

    Many people are not objective in their shooting, its that simple.

    There are always exceptions to every rule and thanks to trading off and indexing many people can learn to overcome disabilities with a rifle. You trade off a poor body position with a better trigger, stuff like that. The fundamentals always apply and you can't use a small problem like some bum ankles as an excuse. From the waist down there should be no tension regardless of the discipline and even if your feet are not as flat as they could be, it's still not a reason to be applying forced forward tensions on the bipod or stock.

    It's great to have hobbies, but there are certain factors around any hobby that must be understood. You don't become a runner with bad knees you consider bicycling, stuff like that.
     

    sailhertoo

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    Re: Using Toes to Push Prone w/ Pod Claws

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Greg Langelius *</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I've been mildly confused by this technique, or at least I was until I had the opportunity to read a writeup yesterday about the technique on another forum. Nothing lacking on this forum, but sometimes a second opinion helps, and for me, this is one of those cases.

    Given the two scenarios, one with the bipod legs loaded forward, and the other without, different performance issues apply.

    Without the preloading, during the small initial portion of the recoil cycle where the bullet is actually transiting the barrel length, the bipod feet will (must, by definition) drag across the supporting surface. This journey is almost certainly accompanied by skips, jerks, clearing small obstacles, etc. Such eventualities can do nothing good to the rifle's support, and will upset the POI almost without any doubt. In any instance, it's essentially impossible to duplicate consistently with successive shots.

    When the bipod is preloaded forward, the initial recoil length corresponds to a flexing of the support legs. This flexing follows a predictable and repeatable pathway, and provides the least possible degree of upset to the bullet's POI, and its practically a given that the bullet will have exited the muzzle before recoil can drive the rifle beyond the small span of the bipod flexing involved.

    As of today, I think I can make a reasonable argument in favor of this technique, and now include myself within the ranks of true believers.

    Greg </div></div>

    Thats a good explanation there. Works for me.

    Thanks
     

    BlackStar

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    Re: Using Toes to Push Prone w/ Pod Claws

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Lowlight</div><div class="ubbcode-body">people with disabilities or otherwise have to start with some basic understandings...

    <span style="color: #FF0000"> Everyone has to start with basics, that was my point. When you have a disability or limitation, what works for you may not work for them. You have to find what works for them and build it into their basics.</span>

    first, there are shooting disciplines that will not be as limiting to someone with a disability, however tactical shooting is not one of them. Tactical shooting implies something different from say, F Class, one thing, Time and Opportunity, you don't always get that when you start down the tactical road, so you should consider something with more time and opportunity to fine tune positions and problems. Tactical shooting is about engaging the target right the fuck now, repeatedly. So if you can't work to that means you need to consider other forms.

    <span style="color: #FF0000"> Tactical shooting is nothing more then applying marksmanship skills with employment and tactics. Stress induced environments and added variables will always put more factors into your shooting ability, however the ability to align the sights and move the trigger is the “basic” key needed.

    I agree that there are major differences, however we all start somewhere and its always the basics (learning to get behind the rifle and build a solid position).
    </span>

    second, when seeking out professional instruction they need to be forward up front about the disabilities or be willing to work through them as many can, however I will say that most don't even begin to try. They pay thousands of dollars for a trip to a facility only to do it their way from the start, then blame everything on their disability, some of which really, aren't near as limiting as others. The issue is in the "trying"... now some people want to be forced out of the box, and made to try, others aren't even going to be bothered. Something I never quite understood.

    <span style="color: #FF0000"> Spot on! A disability is not a crutch and should not be treated as such. That is why a good trainer/ coach will understand how to work a shooter with problems into a consistent position. If someone wants to pay me to listen them complain about a disability in shooting, no problem. If you want to pay me to show you how work through or around your disability, no problem (flexibility at its best
    smile.gif
    )</span>

    if you're gonna blame a rifle for jumping off target you should at least be educated in the fact, rifles only react a certain way, they are an "If & Then" operation. "If" you do this - "Then" this will happen _____ . It's not as if the rifles decide on their own to fuck the shooter and throw rounds out of the black. Its the arrogance of their owners who are unwilling to accept responsibility for their actions, not saying anyone in this thread is doing that, only that is what we see.


    <span style="color: #FF0000"> Right on, man up and own your round strike. Call it! If you can call it, it ant a fuck up, it’s just a bad shot… Accept it, we are human and nobody is perfect! </span>

    Many people are not objective in their shooting, its that simple.

    There are always exceptions to every rule and thanks to trading off and indexing many people can learn to overcome disabilities with a rifle. You trade off a poor body position with a better trigger, stuff like that. The fundamentals always apply and you can't use a small problem like some bum ankles as an excuse. <span style="font-weight: bold">From the waist down there should be no tension regardless of the discipline and even if your feet are not as flat as they could be, it's still not a reason to be applying forced forward tensions on the bipod or stock. </span>


    <span style="color: #FF0000">I have to disagree with you not everyone can shoot that way and not everyone who is a “shooter” shoots that way. As I said before these are “techniques” and not the only way to do things. More then one way to skin a cat and all that stuff… </span>


    It's great to have hobbies, but there are certain factors around any hobby that must be understood. You don't become a runner with bad knees you consider bicycling, stuff like that.

    <span style="color: #FF0000">A very valid point! Good post! </span>
    </div></div>

    We all have to remember where we come from and who we are… Not everyone is going to be a top 10% shooter, but if we blew everyone off with a limitation or issue, nobody would ever make it past basics…

    Very good points LL!

    I still stand by my original recommendations…
     

    Sterling Shooter

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    Re: Using Toes to Push Prone w/ Pod Claws

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: JAB</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Body position and use of a &#147;technique&#148; is shooter dependent. No person is built exactly the same, so expecting one &#147;technique&#148; to work for all shooters is a common misleading among trainers/ coaches/ shooters.

    Disabilities and body structure is the determining factors in how a shooter will build a position that is consistent and reliable. I personally know an Army NG (CW5) who is very well known in the competitive community, who has pins in his neck. He can no longer get directly behind a rifle and is forced to shoot from a 45 degree angle behind the rifle, due to his inability to achieve a proper cheek to stock weld. I can guarantee he will still fire outstanding shot groups and is very consistent.

    The point is that we all can&#146;t use a common technique, due to our own personal body structure and or disabilities.

    Now if you can build a position with out the use of muscle and or build a natural point of aim with out straining, you will always have more consistency in your shooting. Learning to do so through your own disabilities or body structure is the key to having optimal performance while firing.

    I would recommend getting back to basics in the since of building your natural position behind the rifle. Find the most comfortable position, where you can build a natural point of aim with out the use of muscle. Then ingrain that in to your mental check list, when building your firing position. Write down everything you do to achieve the position, so that you have a reminder to help with building it in to permanent memory. It will take thousands of dry runs and hours of getting behind the rifle, but the end result will be a better more consistent position behind the rifle.

    just my .02
    </div></div>

    Interestingly, most of the folks I've trained don't have a problem with getting a good NPA, it's adjusting it where the problem comes in. For the most part, the novice shooter will get ahead of himself, attempting to steer the rifle to get a sight/target relationship, while the position is still being built, and, before sight alignment has been established. I emphasize to shooters, first establish the position, with only a general regard for target position, and then, after aligning sights, adjust NPA to get the desired hold on target. Using this process makes NPA, well, in a word, natural. It doesn't take multitude of reps to get the idea. What takes repetition is understanding what a consistent perspective of aim looks like.