One thing a lot of people seem to forget is the WM will penetrate better then the 6.5 and if the marines end up using mk248 mod1 at some point they will also extend the range over what creed ore will do. Sometimes people have to just stop thinking psr=sniping....
- Thread starter bradthemarine
- Start date
I always joke that this has become the PRS hide not snipershide.
The sooner people remember that "military sniper ammo" is mass produced even for the comps they do when compared to what meticulous/BR reloaders do.
The sooner they will stop making threads about using the newest hottest bullet (that has not been sanctioned by the Geneva Convention or the US government yet), that needs to be seated exactly .018" off the lands to shoot marginally better than the current load that is in service.
We always keep going back to sierra because their classic football shape is one of the most forgiving out there, and gives consistent accuracy throughout the life cycle.
Add in the logistical, procurement, inter-department cost of a new item# and i dont see a 30 cal pill going away anytime soon.
not wanting to start a pissing match but energy on target is a not all that counts with non expanding bullets. if the round dumps all the energy on/in the target the energy is extremely effective.
When shooting ball or non expanding match ammo that more often then not passes right through the diameter matters.
go back to the old days (before my time) when all the tests showed the 556 had better penetration than the 7.62 in all sorts of tests out to 600. advance 30-40 years and the military has been trying to get a useful 30 cal nato round to work in a AR type platform because the 556 is acting like a dart. add in some bad guys that are drugged up that dont stop and call for a medic when they get hit...the rest is in the newspapers.
bigger bullet bigger hole, seen it more than once.
PS on the really funny side of things.
i remember a long tome ago Tactical Rifles (yes the same disaster we keep hearing about), did a little spot on a history channel show and used a 6.5 x 47 lapua in their "M40 clone". we all attacked them as idiots etc.
how the world turns.
The sooner people remember that "military sniper ammo" is mass produced even for the comps they do when compared to what meticulous/BR reloaders do.
The sooner they will stop making threads about using the newest hottest bullet (that has not been sanctioned by the Geneva Convention or the US government yet), that needs to be seated exactly .018" off the lands to shoot marginally better than the current load that is in service.
We always keep going back to sierra because their classic football shape is one of the most forgiving out there, and gives consistent accuracy throughout the life cycle.
Add in the logistical, procurement, inter-department cost of a new item# and i dont see a 30 cal pill going away anytime soon.
not wanting to start a pissing match but energy on target is a not all that counts with non expanding bullets. if the round dumps all the energy on/in the target the energy is extremely effective.
When shooting ball or non expanding match ammo that more often then not passes right through the diameter matters.
go back to the old days (before my time) when all the tests showed the 556 had better penetration than the 7.62 in all sorts of tests out to 600. advance 30-40 years and the military has been trying to get a useful 30 cal nato round to work in a AR type platform because the 556 is acting like a dart. add in some bad guys that are drugged up that dont stop and call for a medic when they get hit...the rest is in the newspapers.
bigger bullet bigger hole, seen it more than once.
PS on the really funny side of things.
i remember a long tome ago Tactical Rifles (yes the same disaster we keep hearing about), did a little spot on a history channel show and used a 6.5 x 47 lapua in their "M40 clone". we all attacked them as idiots etc.
how the world turns.
That, and on yaw--which happens with almost ALL BTHP bullets on contact with flesh--the cutting path of even the lowly 175 Sierra can be 1/4" longer hole than the 77 SMK would be able to cut.
"Oh whatever...it's just a quarter inch."
But think about that for a second. That's an entire bullet diameter of everybody's favorite .243. Even if it's just the boat-tail, that's a lot of meat.
Says the guys who never humped 90 pound ruck at 8K up in the mountains. They will never got to a 30 cal for general issue, its just too much weight and less probability of a hit on target (more recoil + slower follow up shots + sight picture movement + less rounds = less hits on target).
What we may see is some sort of 6.5 caseless to cut down on the weight while adding more range and a flatter shooting round. We will all most likely be dead before that rolls out. They can't even get the LSAT to units in the field after 15 years of development and buku OCO funding.
300 NM is the next natural progression. I want a Belt fed 300NM to be able to reach out and engage PKM and RPG teams at range. It would double the effective range of the 240B/Mk48 and much cheaper/portable than a javalin/TOW/Smart Mortar/AC dropped shit. A couple hundred rounds of 300NM would be a few hundred dollars in the quantities we would buy. Much cheaper than $80K for a Jav missles, $50K for a TOW, $8K for a XM395 or $120K for a GBU 53 + the aircraft cost/fuel. Then convert the SWS over to 300NM to take advantage of economies of scale + match ammo + delinked ammo in a pinch that will still perform atleast as well as current MK248.
Lets make war great again....cheaper more efficient ways to kill the enemies of this great nation.
What we may see is some sort of 6.5 caseless to cut down on the weight while adding more range and a flatter shooting round. We will all most likely be dead before that rolls out. They can't even get the LSAT to units in the field after 15 years of development and buku OCO funding.
300 NM is the next natural progression. I want a Belt fed 300NM to be able to reach out and engage PKM and RPG teams at range. It would double the effective range of the 240B/Mk48 and much cheaper/portable than a javalin/TOW/Smart Mortar/AC dropped shit. A couple hundred rounds of 300NM would be a few hundred dollars in the quantities we would buy. Much cheaper than $80K for a Jav missles, $50K for a TOW, $8K for a XM395 or $120K for a GBU 53 + the aircraft cost/fuel. Then convert the SWS over to 300NM to take advantage of economies of scale + match ammo + delinked ammo in a pinch that will still perform atleast as well as current MK248.
Lets make war great again....cheaper more efficient ways to kill the enemies of this great nation.
No one called out anyones experience here.
just because i have a green B not a imoji and i dont post about it, you have no idea what my experience is good or bad.
that aside the cheapest was to kill enemies it to field more TOW and Hellfire on drones and keep boots off the ground.
or like trump just did, make other countries pay their share of the bill. thats money to the bottom line ASAP.
just because i have a green B not a imoji and i dont post about it, you have no idea what my experience is good or bad.
that aside the cheapest was to kill enemies it to field more TOW and Hellfire on drones and keep boots off the ground.
or like trump just did, make other countries pay their share of the bill. thats money to the bottom line ASAP.
The airforce has been touting since the 1940's that war can be won via airpower. Since then , it has shown you will always needs boots on the ground. someone has to develop those targets, get intel and engage with the locals.
They tried this lighter swifter crap durring OIF. Guess what happened, too few boots on the ground so nothing was secured. As a result, thousands of allies and US .mil were killed in the following years due to both enemies who were not detailed/killed and ordinance dumps used to fuel the insurgency and IED era.
Today in the combined arms world, everything is important and contributes to something greater than the sum of its parts. Men on the ground taking and holding land is still a crucial part of this thing. And nothing indicates that will ever change.
Hence why a cheaper , longer range, more effective means of slaying the enemy (sorry we don't always have air assets on station when we need them) is needed. If anything the capability will increase stand off distances and improve our advantage over our advesaries. Their small arms will be less effective and we can then take advantage of that airpower.
Big 30 cal rounds out of belt feds is the answer.
They tried this lighter swifter crap durring OIF. Guess what happened, too few boots on the ground so nothing was secured. As a result, thousands of allies and US .mil were killed in the following years due to both enemies who were not detailed/killed and ordinance dumps used to fuel the insurgency and IED era.
Today in the combined arms world, everything is important and contributes to something greater than the sum of its parts. Men on the ground taking and holding land is still a crucial part of this thing. And nothing indicates that will ever change.
Hence why a cheaper , longer range, more effective means of slaying the enemy (sorry we don't always have air assets on station when we need them) is needed. If anything the capability will increase stand off distances and improve our advantage over our advesaries. Their small arms will be less effective and we can then take advantage of that airpower.
Big 30 cal rounds out of belt feds is the answer.
Primus well said and to add my thoughts: in my experiences with the boots on the ground as a Marine even if air was on station it was always difficult to get approval for air or indirect due to the risk of civilian casualties. This fact alone in my opinion only reaffirms the need for skilled men with capable rifles to be on the ground and put rounds in the enemy. The Marine Corps has been wanting/needing a replacement for the M40 series rifle for a long time, and this new addition seems greatly welcomed by the scout sniper community.
Can you point me towards those BTDT stocks?
SOCOM adopted .300NM, wonder how long it will be before the Navy says, whoah, that is a better mousetrap?
I can understand the desire to stay with a standard magnum boltface.
I also understand that they are getting very impressive performance out of the .300 WM with the MK248 load, however, if I am not mistaken, they are WAY over SAAMI pressure limits and barrel life is extremely short.
My point of contention is that they could have used the .30-375, gained 5 grains or so capacity and reduced pressure by going with a slower powder.
It would occupy the same footprint and use the same action/boltface and magazine.
please spare me the whole "marine corps are limited in regards to ammunition", they did, after all, develop their OWN 7.62 and 5.56 loads that no other service used.
I also understand that they are getting very impressive performance out of the .300 WM with the MK248 load, however, if I am not mistaken, they are WAY over SAAMI pressure limits and barrel life is extremely short.
My point of contention is that they could have used the .30-375, gained 5 grains or so capacity and reduced pressure by going with a slower powder.
It would occupy the same footprint and use the same action/boltface and magazine.
please spare me the whole "marine corps are limited in regards to ammunition", they did, after all, develop their OWN 7.62 and 5.56 loads that no other service used.
Marines always cry about getting hand me downs while having the latest greatest gear. I would have sucked 13 dicks to get similar quality ta50 and weapons they had while we were both deployed.
Why not a 308/7.62NATO in a long action/1-8" barrel with 198gr Warner Flatlines?
Backward compatible with all types of 308-ammo.
The 198gr Flatline is supersonic beond one mile from a 308win.
Primus: I had a custom 6.5x55 conversion kit for issue 7.62NATO MG34 in the 80'ies doing exactly what you want to do with 300NM. Ammo was Raufoss 144gr fmj factory match ammo for M98 Mauser target rifles.
Leupold 4x pistol scope with target turrets.
This contraption easily had double effective range compared to scoped bolt action DMR rifles shooting 146gr 7,62NATO ball at the time shooting short 5-10 shot bursts full auto.
Backward compatible with all types of 308-ammo.
The 198gr Flatline is supersonic beond one mile from a 308win.
Primus: I had a custom 6.5x55 conversion kit for issue 7.62NATO MG34 in the 80'ies doing exactly what you want to do with 300NM. Ammo was Raufoss 144gr fmj factory match ammo for M98 Mauser target rifles.
Leupold 4x pistol scope with target turrets.
This contraption easily had double effective range compared to scoped bolt action DMR rifles shooting 146gr 7,62NATO ball at the time shooting short 5-10 shot bursts full auto.
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@TorF
With that logic, a 198 Flatline will be that much more effective out of a 300WM. The 308 is my favorite caliber, but a 300WM slinging 198 Flatlines will have greater effect on target, and have superior ballistics.
For your basic DMR/sniper rifle, a standard 308 using the 160 grain Flatline bullet (loaded to mag length) would be excellent.
With that logic, a 198 Flatline will be that much more effective out of a 300WM. The 308 is my favorite caliber, but a 300WM slinging 198 Flatlines will have greater effect on target, and have superior ballistics.
For your basic DMR/sniper rifle, a standard 308 using the 160 grain Flatline bullet (loaded to mag length) would be excellent.
Exactly. What you see today is guys on remote COP's or without heavy support, they are using an LRAS and belt feds to engage as it has the longest range organically.
What you don't see is his buddy on a 240B on a Tripod with T&E ripping bursts at a taliban shit head raining fire from a PKM down.
Get our boys Heavy, longer ranging belt feds so they can out range these goat fuckers and send them to their 72 virgins post haste.
A 308 just doesn't have enough ass to push the high BC pills hard enough. You go transonic way too fast, even at altitude. 300NM loaded with heavies, At altitude is a no shit 2500 yard weapon when used in a belt fed, raining hate and discontent.
The 198gr Flatline in a 300wm is too long, col, for a long action magazine.
Ah, didn’t think of that. Would the 180s work? If so, it’d still give more over a .308/198 combo.
OR
Run a basic 300WM load and transition to single fed 198s when necessary.
Note: I do not own a 300WM as I can’t justify an actual use for it in Alabama, but do enjoy the cartridge.
OR
Run a basic 300WM load and transition to single fed 198s when necessary.
Note: I do not own a 300WM as I can’t justify an actual use for it in Alabama, but do enjoy the cartridge.
Fuck supplying rifles.
Lets change this ROE and you will save more lives on both sides in fact you will avoid conflict totally in most cases when people understand this country understands the real nature of war.
I hope this has gotten somewhat better since 2017 not only for our guys but for the health of the civilians.
Edit/add - Im not calling for total disregard of civilians, that just creates more enemies, but you cant allow the enemy to use the civilian population as their cover, which is exactly what our enemies do.
but.....
the only reason they have the power to do that is because we have a media that provides the enemy the cover to get away with it.
The report will be "US Platoon calls in A10 to kill Afghan wedding party" not the reality of "US Platoon that took two casulaties from a sniper hiding behind civilians used air to kill animals that were firing at them in total disregard for locals"
There is no way this war would have lasted 17 years if the people pushing it or the 99 percent of the people oblivious to it had skin in the game.
Enough of my off topic. Sorry for the rant.
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The 220 SMK is a real pig. It is nothing special at all compared to the bullets available today even in smaller calibers. But I think we all know this. I heard years ago that the military got a good deal on the 220s and they are able to be produced in mass, so you can’t blame them for going with the projectile.
That being said, throwing 220 grains downrange around 2800 is no joke and will certainly destroy anything. With that kind of energy and recoil tamed by a heavy gun and a can, the 300 is the logical choice for a 308 replacement. I don’t know what one of the guys in this thread was talking about but there is zero problem with a belted cartridge you are only going to fire once. The brass comes short and the brass kind of swims in the chamber ahead of the belt, but the headspacing should be much more consistent than a non belted cartridge.
That being said, throwing 220 grains downrange around 2800 is no joke and will certainly destroy anything. With that kind of energy and recoil tamed by a heavy gun and a can, the 300 is the logical choice for a 308 replacement. I don’t know what one of the guys in this thread was talking about but there is zero problem with a belted cartridge you are only going to fire once. The brass comes short and the brass kind of swims in the chamber ahead of the belt, but the headspacing should be much more consistent than a non belted cartridge.
You are the only person inn the world that thinks the belt is superior for headspacing.
I've said it before and I'll say it again.
There is no reason for the belt.
It is a completely useless feature, to appease the uneducated into thinking a belt makes the cartridge a magnum. If everything else was identical a case without a belt would be superior.
And again with this stupid "the military owns a bunch of bullets", the only folks in the entire military organization that own any reloading components are the shooting teams and maybe Crane for testing.
They didn't buy a warehouse full of 220 SMK's on bluelight special.
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How could they? K-Mart went tits up years ago.
I didn't see any mention of a belt being superior, just irrelevant on fire and forget brass which is 100% true.
The 220SMK has the same profile as the 190 SMKs, just longer. No need for a 15 year approval process on a solid bullet the military isn't going to buy in any numbers, regardless of the pipe dreams in this thread.
Never said the belt was superior. I was making a point that it is not this disastrous feature that you said it was. It may be pointless but it works fine. And I also never said the military owns a bunch of bullets. I said they got a good deal on a bullet that Sierra can crank out. So you are 0/2 there
Whatever
Got a good deal. Yes they got pricing. Stop being such an abrasive fucking scumbag. Not the only post I’ve seen you pull your tantrums
lol thats now how it works.
DoD doesn't buy components, with the exception of the shooting teams (as already pointed out) and some specialized units who have expedited/special procurement authority to basically buy what ever they want without going through DFAR's hundreds of pages of bullshit.
They tell a manufacture to make a round with X specs, that performs within y specs and they will either do a huge purchase with delivery phased in lots or create an IDIQ and buy them as needed. They sure as hell aren't buying match kings in bulk and then giving them to their contractor to create rounds. I could explain why that would be stupid , but anyone outside of the contracting world wouldn't understand most likely.
The truth is, DOD is atleast 10 years behind technologically when it comes to anything, That cutting edge F-35 with all the wiz bang sensors and fusison and shit, yea thats 15 year old tech and DARPA was prolly doing it 20+ years ago. Hence why they are using the MK248M1 currently which is one of the shittier loadings possible. Its only redeeming quality is its super hot, but that just burns up barrels quicker. They could be using Berger 230's or even better, Hornady 225's which will blow those 220SMK's out of the water. It may happen, in about 10 more years when they become obsolete and something substantially better is on the market. Thats just the name of the game.
The hobbyists and the competitive shooters are light years ahead of the mil in both tech and knowledge.
The contract for the Mk248 was most likely not LPTA (lowest price technically acceptable), IE lowest bidder. It was most likely a sole source(actually wasn't, it was "competitive") due to the nature of who we buy ammo from (Lake City which is a government owned, contractor operated facility) and who had the capability to produce in the vollumes required by a deadline.
Oh look, here is the award notice https://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/USA-Orders-499M-in-300-Winchester-Magnum-Ammo-05493/
ATK (federal/Lake city) got the award. It was an IDIQ that comes out around $1.25/rnd if they were to buy the full 38 million and change rounds.
What if the gov still had the Armory system, Springfield, Rock Island?
You think the R&D could happen faster than go to production quicker or would it be the bureaucrat in charge supplying what he wants to supply?
Do the likes of Crane/PWS work well enough but they are not of a scale to provide the big .mil needs?
You think the R&D could happen faster than go to production quicker or would it be the bureaucrat in charge supplying what he wants to supply?
Do the likes of Crane/PWS work well enough but they are not of a scale to provide the big .mil needs?
It's cheaper, faster and you will get a better product by contracting it out. How much do you think it costs just to maintain an arsenal, much less staff it's r&d functions? Thats what DARPA and the tier 1 groups are for. The arsenal will save 10 million on the contract but cost dod 250 million in annual O&M. Federal is most likely going to make these or is making these at lake City anyway.
Agreed but they need to expedite the development and contracting process to get "cutting edge" to the field while it's still cutting.
Just another example of how fucked up govt is.
Thankfully what every country has is a govt so they are all just as retarded.
What we are blessed with is a civilian population that is on the cutting edge of arms. I guess the shores are safe as long as we maintain that.
.300 Win mag rocks. Fast enough, flat enough, and fat enough, to knock big flipping holes in anything you intend to destroy. Great choice for goat fuckers a alike. Long live the magnum, and shit talk. Lets all be happy the boys have some heavy knockdown power on their side
Uh yeah lol. That thing is SICK.
Actually rechambering it to a 7. Thing shoots lights out with 210 SMKs though. Just wanted to get out of 30 cal
General Dynamics built a .338 Norma Mag belt fed. Apparently, it was extremely accurateExactly. What you see today is guys on remote COP's or without heavy support, they are using an LRAS and belt feds to engage as it has the longest range organically.
What you don't see is his buddy on a 240B on a Tripod with T&E ripping bursts at a taliban shit head raining fire from a PKM down.
Get our boys Heavy, longer ranging belt feds so they can out range these goat fuckers and send them to their 72 virgins post haste.
A 308 just doesn't have enough ass to push the high BC pills hard enough. You go transonic way too fast, even at altitude. 300NM loaded with heavies, At altitude is a no shit 2500 yard weapon when used in a belt fed, raining hate and discontent.
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Yea that is where I actually got my idea from. .338 obviously has the energy and range advantage over the 300, but would require a magnum action, weigh substantially more per round and cost more than 300 would. Great for vechicles and static locations, but it would be way to cumbersome for dismounts and ground operations on foot. Going from 7.62 to 300NM already has a steep enough weight penalty. I wonder what a 200 round belt of .338 would weigh.
Maybe just shy of 15 lbs assuming a 250 projectile
.300 NM is nothing more than a .338 NM necked down. The action is identical, the payload weight is different. I believe they like to run 230's in the .300 NM while the .338 NM was tailored around the 300 grain bullet (though 285's are popular). So, anywhere from 55 to 70 grains per round, which is not insubstantial.
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