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Varget volume?

earthquake

earthquake

Area Man
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Minuteman
    • Jul 30, 2009
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    USA
    Using LC Match brass in a .308 and 42.5gr Varget fills the brass past the shoulder to the base of the neck so much so that the bullet (175 SMK) will not go in unless I compress the powder to obtain the correct OAL.

    I wanted to start at 42 and go up to 44 but the way it's looking now, there's no way to fit 44 gr in the cases.

    THIS SEEMS REALLY WRONG! What's going on here? I don't want to compress powder by jamming the bullet into the case right?
     
    Re: Varget volume?

    If it's going up that high one of two things is happening.

    1. That ain't Varget
    2. Your scale is totally out of cal

    All I load in 308 is LC Match Brass and Varget. Plenty of room at 42gr.

    Cheers,

    Doc
     
    Re: Varget volume?

    Compressed loads are pretty normal, as always, work up slowly checking for pressure signs, and ensure you have enough neck tension so your bullets don't 'grow' after a while.
    I found that some of my compressed loads, overnight would push the bullets back out as much as .005" sometimes..
    I quit using that load for othervreasons though.
     
    Re: Varget volume?

    chech you have zero'd your scales first as something does not seem quite right with the amount of powder it should not be that full. But you can compress Varget to 110% of the case volume safly but i would use a friends scales to confirm the charge is correct it seems like you have closer to 44gr in there to be compresing it. I would check that the load is OK and start from there. if for some reason your cases donthave the correct volume make sure there is no crap inside them that has setled and reduced the volume because it will end up down your dore if it si that.

    Otherwise check the powder is from a known new tin and check your scales if they are OK then see if the pressure is OK then if it is shoot the load.

    I can get 46gr Varget into a military case with a lighter projectile though but it is compresed so there is something wrong somewhere.


     
    Re: Varget volume?

    Are you weighing your charges? Are you dropping your charges by weight or volume? If your dropping your powder charges by volume, Im guessing you calc'd something wrong or your dropper is not as accurate as you think.
     
    Re: Varget volume?

    I load Lapua brass 44.5 and same... Falls just below the shoulder. Have gone as much as 46 at one point and no problems.
     
    Re: Varget volume?

    42.5 varget in LC brass shouldn't be compressed. Mine is just underneath the shoulder with that load. The bullet seats into it a bit but I can still feel that it isn't compressed if you get my meaning.
     
    Re: Varget volume?

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: doc76251</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If it's going up that high one of two things is happening.

    1. That ain't Varget
    2. Your scale is totally out of cal

    All I load in 308 is LC Match Brass and Varget. Plenty of room at 42gr.

    Cheers,

    Doc </div></div>

    I agree with Doc. Somethin' ain't right......

    Keith
     
    Re: Varget volume?

    I load 44.9 grains of Varget in Black Hills brass with no compression.
     
    Re: Varget volume?

    If the scale is correct then it sounds to me that it's not varget just as others have said. But indeed may be H4895...it doesn't take much of that stuff to fill a case. And to me it looks just like Varget.
     
    Re: Varget volume?

    When I load 47.8 gr Varget in Win cases, it is 1/2 way up the neck, maybe a tad more than 1/2 way up the neck.
     
    Re: Varget volume?

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: MitchAlsup</div><div class="ubbcode-body">When I load 47.8 gr Varget in Win cases, it is 1/2 way up the neck, maybe a tad more than 1/2 way up the neck. </div></div>

    LC and Win brass are completely different animals. 47gr in a LC case would be really high. I'm in the neck at 45g
     
    Re: Varget volume?

    Lapua brass here, 46.6gr Varget and it sits at the start of the neck... always crunches but shoots flys off a dogs bum at 100 yards easily.
     
    Re: Varget volume?

    How fast you dump the powder in the case makes a difference on how much room is left in the case, I was at my new range the other day watching a BR shooter load, he was using a Harrels throw with a 12 inch tube, I noticed he was actuating the throw very slow, I asked why and said let me show you, he dumped a charge very fast, the powder overfilled the case, then he did it very slow and the powder came to the edge of the shoulder, leaving plenty of room for the flat base bullet.
     
    Re: Varget volume?

    I'd definitely start by checking the scale. I load 45.5 grs into Lapua cases and it just comes up to the neck. For that matter, check everything whenever you are doing a loading session. Just the other day I found that my seating die, which had been sitting on the press untouched for over a month, had loosened 1/8 turn. That might not affect seating much, but could have induced run-out. Scales can change even on a level surface just by being moved a bit. I always take my weights down to zero, make sure the scale is balanced, then double-check that I've put the correct weight back on.
     
    Re: Varget volume?

    45 grains just comes up to the neck on my brass and leaves plenty of room for my 175s. If you're compressing I'd pull those rounds apart until you find out what's going on so they don't get accidentally fired.
     
    Re: Varget volume?

    Looks like a lot of people are missing the fact the LC brass is quite a bit different than other brass.
     
    Re: Varget volume?

    Of course.

    The two main factors in this subject are

    a) the differences in brass case internal volume when comparing different brands of brass eg lapua vs federal brass
    b) the technique used to load the brass into the case... funnels, differing lengths of drop tubes etc..
     
    Re: Varget volume?

    Here's a pic of 45.5 grains of Varget inside an LC 90 headstamp(once-fired, primed brass). It filled almost to the same height as my Lapua brass. Yes, there's a difference in volume among all brass, but it probably isn't the problem here. I'd check my scale and other factors.

    lc_45.5_varget.jpg
     
    Re: Varget volume?

    Thank you for all the info guys. I don't reload, my father does in Ohio. I sent him all my brass, pow, and bullets. I wanted him to start at 42.5grn and go up in 20 round lots of .5 grn increments but when he started to fill the first set at 42.5, he said he couldn't get the bullet in. He is now on his way back to Ohio and will check his scales etc.

    He's been reloading for 20+ years but has never loaded Varget or LC brass so he wasn't sure what the problem was. I have 700+ pieces of LC and M80 ball .308 brass, 7lbs of Varget and 450 SMK's. Hopefully we can figure this out so I can develop a cartridge load for my rifle and I can stop shooting 45 year old military ball ammo! I'm almost out of that stuff anyway. Thanks again!
     
    Re: Varget volume?

    I have noticed the same thing when working with the barns bullets in my 7-08. Because of the extra canalures in the bullets they lack the bearing surface to hold tight to the neck.
     
    Re: Varget volume?

    O.K., here's the latest from my pops...he's back in Columbus and tried again:

    "<span style="font-style: italic"><span style="color: #000099">Tonight I re-calibrated the Dillon balance scale using balance calibration brass weights. I found no faults with my original setup! Next I compared samples of the Varget powder (under a strong magnifying glass) from the bottles bought in Columbus to the ones bought in Colorado. They matched !
    I then setup an electronic scale and weighed out a perfect 42.5 load. I then very carefully transferred it to the balance scale also set at 42.5 and they balanced !
    I then poured the load using a funnel, into the sized LC MATCH primed .308 brass and it filled the case to the base of the neck. I then set the Sierra 30 cal. .308 175 GR. HPBT to a Maximum OAL of 2.800 inches.
    Next, I then held up just a bullet beside the completed load. And it was clear the bullet was seated to the base of the shoulder.
    This shows me, that if the powder was up to the top of the shoulder (the base of the neck) to begin with, then the bullet must be seated into the powder.
    With 42.5 as the starting load, I can't see how I'll work up to 43, 43.5 and 44?</span></span>"


    Any other ideas/thoughts?
     
    Re: Varget volume?

    I barely get some crunch with 155 VLD's and 44.5 gr of Varget in Lapua cases. Once loaded I shake the cases well to distribute the powder and there is some shake in the case. If I wasn't loading for magazine legth constraints in an AR I wouldn't be close to any crunching.
     
    Re: Varget volume?

    Damn...am I going to have to buy Lapua brass? I have nearly 800 pieces of LC and regular old M80 ball .308 brass. But if I can't fit more than 42 grn. of pow in them....
     
    Re: Varget volume?

    Just go with Lapua or Win brass, they are the best your going to get. Your going to get more reloads out of Lapua and win brass before it craps out on you, Fed. and Rem. are just not as consistent and won't last as long.

    Sell the LC brass and just get some Win Brass and don't look back. Do your load work up in .1gr increments not .5 your just stabbing in the dark with .5 you will miss an accuracy node doing that.

    Here is an example of how you should do it and you can see just how much of a difference .1gr makes in your sd/ex
    L1
    44.5 Varget
    178 AMAX
    2.8 COAL
    AVG: 2615
    SD: 5
    ES: 15

    L2
    44.6 Varget
    178 AMAX
    2.8 COAL
    AVG: 2633
    SD: 10.4
    ES: 28
    Group Size Outside to Outside: .83"

    L3
    44.7 Varget
    178 AMAX
    2.8 COAL
    AVG: 2634
    SD: 0
    ES: 5
    Group Size Outside to Outside: .571"

    L4
    44.8 Varget
    178 AMAX
    2.8 COAL
    AVG: 2632
    SD: 9
    ES: 27
    Group Size Outside to Outside: .752"

    L5
    44.9 Varget
    178 AMAX
    2.8 COAL
    AVG: 2643
    SD: 4
    ES: 15
    Group Size Outside to Outside: .864"

    L6
    45.0 Varget
    178 AMAX
    2.8 COAL
    AVG: 2652
    SD: 5
    ES: 15
    Group Size Outside to Outside: .867"
     
    Re: Varget volume?

    What ever you've got, if it's consistant, the case is full of powder. Some of the loads that I use consist of less powder than that of so and so using the same cartridge.
     
    Re: Varget volume?

    <div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: gfunkUK</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Compressed loads are pretty normal, ensure you have enough neck tension so your bullets don't 'grow' after a while.
    I found that some of my compressed loads, overnight would push the bullets back out as much as .005" sometimes..
    </div></div>

    Yes, they can indeed "grow" that is why I always check and if so run them through again the next day or two. For sure growing @ .002 neck tension not so much @ .003 also not much if you FL resize or neck size 99%. 2/3's of the way down the way I like with .002 always gives me growing pains.
     
    Re: Varget volume?

    So I'm here in Ohio right now getting all my stuff back, and based on the pic above from azimutha, my loads look the same. I put 45 gr. into one and it was at the base of the neck. Sure, the bullet is going to sit in the pow, but I don't think it'll be a problem.

    My pops just isn't familiar with reloading these types of rounds and has never loaded Varget so I think it looked odd to him and so he didn't want to load anymore and blow something up. I'll post a pic of my filled case here shortly.
     
    Re: Varget volume?

    Most of the time when I load with Varget, I tap the side of the case when putting the powder in.
     
    Re: Varget volume?

    Here are the pics.


    45 gr. Varget on the scale...
    992660.jpg


    Brass...
    992661.jpg


    Varget in the case...
    992662.jpg


    That looks o.k. right?
     
    Re: Varget volume?

    using a drop tube might help give you some more room in there
     
    Re: Varget volume?

    There are marked differences in brass thickness, etc that cause variations in how much powder will fill to what depth in the case. Military brass is normally thickest out there. They generally load with ball type powders that will take less space. I have taken to the swirl charge method for charging cases. Let the powder pour off the side of the funnel in a slower, circular motion. It will provide uniformity in powder column and volume. I don't charge directly from a powder thrower. My Chargemaster throws the charge and I then swirl into the case. I don't mind if I touch the powder column with the bullet but I don't like to feel a lot of resistance or hear powder kernels crunching under seating pressure.
     
    Re: Varget volume?

    How does a long drop tube help?

    Oh, and if I'm going to buy a bare-bones reloading kit, what's a good one that will give me everything I need to load some up? Rock-Chucker? I figure all I need is:

    die
    single-stage press
    calipers
    primer pocket tool
    primer tool
    digital scale
    drop tube
    powder thrower and trickler

    anything else?
     
    Re: Varget volume?

    Its from the Black powder days.
    It settles the powder and give it time to fill all the voids.
    It will surprise you..

    Nothing wrong with the Rockchucker..I would have a good balance
    scale as a backup though...
     
    Re: Varget volume?

    I think I could fit 42 grains into my 6.5x47 cases. Make sure you weighed your charges right and make sure it's the right powder.
     
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