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Suppressors *VIDEO UP* INTEGRALLY SUPPRESSED 10/22 *VIDEO UP*

762frmafr

762frmafr

Gunny Sergeant
Full Member
Minuteman
Feb 18, 2009
1,770
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46
http://g.co/maps/2jf23
www.promisedlandguns.com
#1
well it has finally arrived. my Tactical Solutions Sawtooth MC (which stands for mono core). i assembled it today on a Ruger 10/22 action with power custom extended bolt handle, power custom titanium firing pin, a volquartsen TG2000 trigger group, and a hogue overmolded stock. i topped it off with an EGW 20 MOA base Burris tactical rings and a Bushnell 3200 4-12x scope. with subsonic ammo this thing is scary quiet. all you hear is the smack of the action and the bullet striking the target. i will get video up in the next day or 2.
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#3
Re: INTEGRALLY SUPPRESSED 10/22

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BookHound</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The Sawtooth-MC is a very nice suppressor. </div></div>
I'm glad to see you say that. Because I am really loving it so far. I think it is as close to "silenced" with subs as you could expect to get with a semi auto... And I dare say it would be close to a bolt gun albeit with a bolt gun there would be less action noise.
 
#5
Re: INTEGRALLY SUPPRESSED 10/22

..

The wonderful thing about an integral designed suppressor is the ability to attend to velocity, any velocity, within the assembly. Integrals allow the barrel to be ported to control the velocity. As a result, one should be getting that performance with standard or supersonic ammo. There is absolutely no reason to shoot subs in a well made, well designed integral .22, ever. Expensive, dirty and not required.

With a stack like that, why not just thread on a blast can, why go integral? Nice rifle, but I don't see any reason to get stuck with a dedicated can for this design.

..
 
#6
Re: INTEGRALLY SUPPRESSED 10/22

I have one just like yours but with a walnut stock and 6x Leupold scope. It is my main rat and pigeon control gun around my barn. Everyone that has shot it falls in love with it. It even keeps unwanted pests out of my wife's bird feeders.
 
#7
Re: INTEGRALLY SUPPRESSED 10/22

How does this stack up against YHM's integrated 10/22 barrel? I'm looking into my next suppressor purchase and I'm infatuated with the integration design
 
#9
Re: INTEGRALLY SUPPRESSED 10/22

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RollingThunder51</div><div class="ubbcode-body">..

The wonderful thing about an integral designed suppressor is the ability to attend to velocity, any velocity, within the assembly. Integrals allow the barrel to be ported to control the velocity. As a result, one should be getting that performance with standard or supersonic ammo. There is absolutely no reason to shoot subs in a well made, well designed integral .22, ever. Expensive, dirty and not required.

With a stack like that, why not just thread on a blast can, why go integral? Nice rifle, but I don't see any reason to get stuck with a dedicated can for this design.

.. </div></div>

Not all integrals use ported barrels. The Sawtooth-MC does not have a ported barrel. Ported barrel designs have the suppressor AROUND the barrel and gas bleeds through the ports into the core. With the Sawtooth-MC the suppressor sits directly in front of ~10.5" worth of barrel.

I personally don't like ported designs. I would rather control the sound level through ammo selection. Since ported barrel designs intentionally bleed gas from behind the projectile, there is risk of getting a projectile stuck in the bore if you happen to use lower powered ammo. In a design like the Sawtooth-MC some high/hyper velocity rounds might break the sound barrier but it is perfectly safe to shoot subsonics as well.

The advantage (to some people) of an integral design is that you achieve a suppressed host in a shorter overall host length. Integrals are neat and have their place. I prefer a thread-mounted suppressor simply because there are no integral weapon hosts that appeal to me. I don't mean it as a knock against the OP here but the 10/22 just isn't my thing. I don't care for them much. I would like an integral 22/45 with a light-weight upper (like a Pac-Lite) but no one makes one and I'd want it to come apart for cleaning. In fact, I begged TacSol to make just such a Pac-Lite upper that could share the MC's core. My idea was to make the host with a dummy "spacer". So, a guy could buy the Sawtooth-MC or Pac-Lite MC and pay the tax stamp. Then get the other host as a non-NFA item with a "spacer" in place. TacSol passed on the idea. If they made a Pac-Lite MC I'd buy one in a second.
 
#10
Re: INTEGRALLY SUPPRESSED 10/22

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BookHound</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> In fact, I begged TacSol to make just such a Pac-Lite upper that could share the MC's core. My idea was to make the host with a dummy "spacer". So, a guy could buy the Sawtooth-MC or Pac-Lite MC and pay the tax stamp. Then get the other host as a non-NFA item with a "spacer" in place. TacSol passed on the idea. If they made a Pac-Lite MC I'd buy one in a second. </div></div>
the reason they didn't take you up on that idea is because they are afraid to be millionaires.....that is a wonderful idea. i would buy one as well.
 
#11
Re: INTEGRALLY SUPPRESSED 10/22

I talked to Tom at TacSol a couple YEARS ago when they first made the Sawtooth. I got to test one for a few months and then they were coming out with the MC version so he had me send the Sawtooth back for the conversion to an MC model. The day I got the MC back I called him and gave him my idea.

My idea was really to have a series of hosts with the "spacer" system. They could start with the Buckmark Trail-Lite and Pac-Lite barrels but maybe even do some others.
 
#14
Re: INTEGRALLY SUPPRESSED 10/22

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Tucsondave</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Pretty quiet </div></div>
literally all you can hear is the action noise and the bullet striking the target...next video to be uploaded will be right at my right ear.
 
#15
Re: INTEGRALLY SUPPRESSED 10/22

Sounds like my 10/22 with Sparrow on it! The integral barrels are nice because you dont have to deal with the added length of the can on your 16" barrel. Or, you dont want to have to pay the double tax stamp to SBR your 22.

I did a GSG5-PK SBR with a YHM Wraith. Its super quiet
 
#16
Re: INTEGRALLY SUPPRESSED 10/22

subs?

IMO, all this nonsense about the quietness of a .22 can shooting subsonics has got to end. ANY can (well, maybe not any) shooting subsonic .22s is quiet! They are SubSonic rounds! You've got a pistol powered rifle. If one starts with subsonics you are already S-L-O-W, by the end of a rifle barrel? Quiet, weak and hardly accurate?

Now load up some high vels and re-record.

Bookhound,

Clearly not all integrals use ported barrels....we are looking at one. If one is just going to bob the barrel and make a blast can permanently stuck on the end, well that is certainly one way to go. But, to my mind, why bother? Aside from the ability to attend to velocity with a quality ported barrel, one can also attend to harmonics by compressing the barrel with the assembly of the outer envelope. That will be a major contributor to accuracy as well.

The quietest .22 suppressed rifle in the world uses an integral design and you can shoot .22 high vel (in fact they are recommended). Porting a barrel is a skill (like everything else) but the idea that I think you have of a swiss cheese hole job is long over. The velocity is controled by two tiny ports, the vast majority of the suppression occurs after the internal muzzle. The redirect super high pressure gas jet actually helps to do a superior job in suppression as it hits the diffussers first, before the bullet!

The one I see here is a very early baffle design. Reminiscent of a first gen AAC prodigy, even they went from curved to flat. Gas hates flat and angles.

Expensive, dirty...why use subs??
 
#17
Re: INTEGRALLY SUPPRESSED 10/22

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RollingThunder51</div><div class="ubbcode-body">

Now load up some high vels and re-record.

</div></div>
they are not subsonic....you will hear the crack. and a lot more action noise. i like it because it is 16.5" "with suppressor" and i do not need 2 stamps.
 
#18
Re: INTEGRALLY SUPPRESSED 10/22

..

Exactly, with a tuned barrel shooting high vels a shop can get the velocity at "transition" speeds right at the can. That means the ultimate power and accuracy possible and the quietest possible as well.

Just trying to help here. Integrals are the very quiestest possible way to go, but not without alot more work.

Blast can? Go Seperate.

..
 
#19
Re: INTEGRALLY SUPPRESSED 10/22

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RollingThunder51</div><div class="ubbcode-body">..

Exactly, with a tuned barrel shooting high vels a shop can get the velocity at "transition" speeds right at the can. That means the ultimate power and accuracy possible and the quietest possible as well.

Just trying to help here. Integrals are the very quiestest possible way to go, but not without alot more work.

Blast can? Go Seperate.

.. </div></div>
i hear what you are saying. and i am not disagreeing. would it be nice to shoot bulk box crap? of course. does it matter if subs are dirty? no because it is cleanable. would there still be more action noise with bulk box even with a ported barrel? i think so. i also think that action noise can be heard more by the shooter than the "crack" so overall shooting this setup with subs sounds and is super quiet.
 
#20
Re: INTEGRALLY SUPPRESSED 10/22

..

True but no power and for many stability issues as well.

Since we are here to learn.

IF one really cares about hitting power.

IF one really cares about accuracy.

IF one really cares about quiet.

IF one really cares about longevity and cleanliness.

Well, the can doesn't look like that at all.

Lets start with POWER:

The trick is to get the velocity of the .22 round at transition speed right before the can. Exactly at 1050-1080. Just shy of supersonic. That allows for the most power possible without the sonic projectile signature. THEN, you suppress the gas. How does one do that? One tunes to a round that EXCEEDS supersonic FIRST. That round is brought to transition through the use of a tuneable gas port system. When transition speed is reached, DONE. Maximum subsonic power. Requirement? Use Supersonic Rounds.

Now ACCURACY:

The whole assembly, barrel and can are compressed by the outer tube (envelope) to attend to any barrel harmonics. Very important in a suppressed .22 as the normal barrels were never designed for the resulting suppressed pressures. That containment, that compression really makes an accuracy difference.

Now Quiet.

Modern baffles, 100 stainless, front purge. Use the tapped super high pressure gas from the tap to disrupt the gases by allowing that to hit the diffuser baffles FIRST, before the bullet. BIG difference. Modern flat design, front purge baffles and tuned chambers.

Now Longevity and cleanliness:

100% stainless, 360 welded (yes in a .22 can!) and front purge. Monocores eat up the most precious commodity of all, capacity in the envelope (tube). No dirty subs, ever, all rounds should be copper coated/plated. 1,000s and 1,000s and 1,000s before a cleaning.

I'll stop now.

 
#21
Re: INTEGRALLY SUPPRESSED 10/22

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: RollingThunder51</div><div class="ubbcode-body">
Bookhound,

Clearly not all integrals use ported barrels....we are looking at one. If one is just going to bob the barrel and make a blast can permanently stuck on the end, well that is certainly one way to go. But, to my mind, why bother? Aside from the ability to attend to velocity with a quality ported barrel, one can also attend to harmonics by compressing the barrel with the assembly of the outer envelope. That will be a major contributor to accuracy as well.

The quietest .22 suppressed rifle in the world uses an integral design and you can shoot .22 high vel (in fact they are recommended). Porting a barrel is a skill (like everything else) but the idea that I think you have of a swiss cheese hole job is long over. The velocity is controled by two tiny ports, the vast majority of the suppression occurs after the internal muzzle. The redirect super high pressure gas jet actually helps to do a superior job in suppression as it hits the diffussers first, before the bullet!

The one I see here is a very early baffle design. Reminiscent of a first gen AAC prodigy, even they went from curved to flat. Gas hates flat and angles.

Expensive, dirty...why use subs??
</div></div>

Um, yeah. That is exactly what I stated about the Sawtooth-MC.

And we're pretty much stating the same thing regarding the velocity issue as well - a ported design typically REQUIRES higher velocity ammunition because it is designed to bleed off gas to reduce velocity to trans-sonic or subsonic levels. With an un-ported design the user can CHOOSE which ammo he uses. The supersonic ammo will give the sonic crack; subs won't. But the user has more flexibility in his ammo choice.

Regarding dirty ammo, there is no such thing as "clean" .22lr ammo/powder. At least none I've ever encountered. It is all dirty. Some is just worse than others.

I very much agree coated projectiles cut down on lead buildup. However, the coatings on most (if not all) coated .22lr projectiles is very thin. So we must take into account intended use/application. For example, someone shooting higher cycle rate hosts (like MGs) can use plated rounds but the heat generated by the barrel will wear through some of the plating; that user still will get lead buildup in his suppressor it is just less.

There are still more variables to consider. Barrel length and environment (e.g. temperature, altitude, etc.) are just two more things we must factor into the "what will the velocity be with XXX brand ammo" equation.

Integrals have their place. As already stated they don't really interest me enough to buy one, but I understand why some guys like them.
 
#22
Re: INTEGRALLY SUPPRESSED 10/22

..

No, subs can be used safely all day long. That is not the issue.

Lets take it one step further. another important reason for using a .22 can that is specifically designed for high velocity .22s is the faster gases actually create a much higher frequency. That higher gas speed and resulting higher frequency is actually easier to create gas jet turbulance with in limited spaces with the net effect, if properly designed, a quiter suppressor. Those very same suppressors actually will be louder (the same sound level of a poorer .22 suppressor, the kind that prefers subs) when subs are used.

This is all very very obvious when you hear the two types together. There is no comparison, the result is instantly clear. Yes, the more sophisticated integrals are more expensive, no doubt. No blast can comes close on a .22 rifle. Nowhere near.



 
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