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Vietnam Snipers

Re: Vietnam Snipers

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: BOLTRIPPER</div><div class="ubbcode-body">i learned a lot from this guy.....
MVC-261S.jpg
</div></div>Is that your mug there on the right Boltripper ?
 
Re: Vietnam Snipers

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: kraigWY</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The orginal XM21/M21 had steel mounts. They were not flawed, they worked quite well. </div></div>

Kind of what I figured- something about that paragraph didn't add up
 
Re: Vietnam Snipers

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: kraigWY</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The orginal XM21/M21 had steel mounts. They were not flawed, they worked quite well. </div></div>

I beg to differ -- they were fabricated of aluminum by the Army's Frankford Arsenal and mated with the Redfield 3x9 ARTs. Mounts were serialed with the scope they left the arsenal with.
 
Re: Vietnam Snipers

I just looked it up, they were Aluminum, but still they held up quite well. The one's I used held their zero when you take them off and put them back on.
 
Re: Vietnam Snipers

Killer-spade,

I agree with you on the redfield! My grandfather had all his rifles set up with redfield scopes and never looked at anything else. His favorite was a wide view 3-9x.

Ive got a vintage 3-9x regular redfield on my m40(sorta) clone. Its awesome and I honestly wouldn't change anything on it.

Kraig,
I see you said a lot of snipers didn't like the accurange redfields. I have read that is from the tombstone reticle being melted in the sun. Is that what you came across with people not liking the scope?

The one round war is a great book if anyone is intereted by the way! I have it and look it over almost weekly. Great read for anyone looking for more information on the vietnam era of sniping.
 
Re: Vietnam Snipers

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Kraig,
I see you said a lot of snipers didn't like the accurange redfields.</div></div>

I don't know that they didn't LIKE the accurange, its that for convience sake they just sighted them in at 500 and let it go at that, holding over/under as needed.
 
Re: Vietnam Snipers

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: kraigWY</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> The one's I used held their zero when you take them off and put them back on. </div></div>

Must have had a different batch than the ones we had, west of you. We even had the Armor install set screws from the top, to stop elevation issues, better, but not even close, to today's gear. Field R&D sucks, but you just picked up, an stepped off.
 
Re: Vietnam Snipers

FWIW, I was fooling around with a mapping program and thought that this would be of interest. Program put in the lines. How it looks today...

2agte8n.jpg
 
Re: Vietnam Snipers

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: kraigWY</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Kraig,
I see you said a lot of snipers didn't like the accurange redfields.</div></div>

I don't know that they didn't LIKE the accurange, its that for convience sake they just sighted them in at 500 and let it go at that, holding over/under as needed. </div></div>

Now THAT'S shooting, Kraig.
 
Re: Vietnam Snipers

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Gunfighter14e2</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: kraigWY</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> The one's I used held their zero when you take them off and put them back on. </div></div>

Must have had a different batch than the ones we had, west of you. We even had the Armor install set screws from the top, to stop elevation issues, better, but not even close, to today's gear. Field R&D sucks, but you just picked up, an stepped off. </div></div>

If it makes you feel better, after 30 years we still had problems with mounting scopes on M21s. Ours were not issued with mounts or rings so we acquired ARMS rings and Smith Enterprises mounts.

We had a hard time maintaining zero and groups were mediocre. I inspected my sniper's set-up and found there was considerable differences in size between the crossbar in the rings and the rails on the mount. Shimmed it with a section of pull tab from a soda can and worked a lot better. Necessity is the mother of invention.
 
Re: Vietnam Snipers

Well, I guess it doesn't matter really. Aluminum can't be welded to steel by any non-exotic means and even those were not available at the time, so no matter how you look at it there were some inaccuracies with the information he provided.
 
Re: Vietnam Snipers

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: longebow</div><div class="ubbcode-body">When I went through the 101st's sniper school in the late 80's, I used a well-used M21 with an ArTel 1 on it. The chief instructor was Joe White, who was a sniper in VN. He was a humble and religious man--he did not share many war stories with us during the training. He dedicated himself to imparting the lessons that we would need to be effective. We used both the white box and brown box M118 ammunition (the white box was much more consistent lot to lot). We confirmed zeros on steel at 300 meters, and shot all the way back to 900 meters (990 yards). Mr. White would only give us "credit" for a hit if the impact on steel was in the upper chest. He called gut shots (low hits on the E-type) misses. Lessons learned from VN... </div></div>

It has been about 8 years but I think this fellow was the same guy who helped instruct the 5th SFG SOTIC when I went through. He wouldn't touch our rifles, said something about having killed enough already. Think he had 68 kills was the word. He also didn't believe in ghillie suits. Snuck up real close on my roommates class wearing nothing but everyday civilian clothes and a ghillie hat to prove his point.
 
Re: Vietnam Snipers

I agree, you don't need a ghillie.

If one really wants to practice stalking, go antilope hunting and see how close you can sneak up on those critters.

Careful though, I blew a stalk last year because I came nose to nose with a rattler, the antilope bolted when I shot the snake with my 642 I carried in my pocket.
 
Re: Vietnam Snipers

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: kraigWY</div><div class="ubbcode-body">I agree, you don't need a ghillie.</div></div>Agreed. But some sort of headgear is handy to break-up the ouline of the head/scoped rifle. I had a former military instructor once at an advanced LE course who had us stalk without any kind of suit. The same people did well; the same people did poorly.

 
Re: Vietnam Snipers

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: banshee sws</div><div class="ubbcode-body">yes that is Steve Suttles on the left and Boltripper on the right

good times right there !!

thanks for posting the pic sir !</div></div>



verily so..........
 
Re: Vietnam Snipers

Gee you look like a big bugger boltripper,probably use a hot air ballon for a parashute- or the other guys going to appear in the Hobbit
 
Re: Vietnam Snipers

Steve is a freaking weather genius... we had storms moving in and constantly changing wind/weather when I attended the basic precision course. Not only could he sit back in his chair with his eyes closed and get the wind speed to within a mile or two, he could also get the humidity and barometric pressure right to within a very small margin of error. Great group of guys at Badland's Tactical.
 
Re: Vietnam Snipers

I am honored to have been schooled by Steve Suttles. He is an incredible shooter, spotter, and instructor. I have watched him make shots that I would have said were impossible if I had not witnessed it myself and even then I was skeptical. More amazing was that he was able to direct me to duplicate what he had just accomplished, which given my lack of talent as a student, speaks volumes as to his skills as an instructor.
 
Re: Vietnam Snipers

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: banshee sws</div><div class="ubbcode-body">yes that is Steve Suttles on the left and Boltripper on the right </div></div>

Hee hee ...
 
Re: Vietnam Snipers

You know I have to think of a few things this thread has brought us.

Rifles: Kraig's description of a lighter more effective rifle. At the ranges our guys shoot now? Same caliber or higher?

Rucks: I always felt like what I carried in the 'large ALICE' with a frame felt like a ton of bricks. At least until I got shot at, then a 9.5 hundred felt pretty easy. I gotta say I like the idea of a jungle ruck. Too often, leaders feel that more room = more stuff. Carry the 'stuff' you need. If there is room, carry the stuff you want for what limited comfort you can afford to take.

Sights: I personally have to say I was behind on this curve going through the Army for at least the first year. I just couldn't seem to lock up on the Army's idea that a sight picture was the same all the time. Then I learned to shoot the ghost. After that, I understood much better how exactly to make tiny little changes to the 'sight picture' to make it work to extreme precision. What you said about sizing with sights and ranging Kraig is awesome. I can say I've understood it, but found it hard to show people with open sights. I have shown them many times how to range with duplex reticles and especially with variable powers. Anyhow, the explanations on this thread I hope have helped a bunch.

Camo/stalking: No question, if you take your time you will get a lot closer than if you move too fast. The trick is to be in a position that you know the range before you make the shot. Not always possible, but always more possible if you think about it beforehand. Ghillie suits are not necessary and they are hot. But, in the most extreme conditions, with proper application, they work well.

I'm sure more can be summed up. Please feel free. And say something if you feel differently about what I said.
 
Re: Vietnam Snipers

Different Wars require different tactics, Different Tactics require different tools.

If one was to study and follow the old basic Patrol Procedures and Planning, you'll be covered.

If I was to stress one thing that is critical, regardless of wars, regardless of tactics, is Map Reading and Land Nav.

GPS's are nice, and fun, but electronics fail. Unless the poles change like some say on Dec 21, 2012, your compass and map wont let you down.
 
Re: Vietnam Snipers

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: kraigWY</div><div class="ubbcode-body">If I was to stress one thing that is critical, regardless of wars, regardless of tactics, is Map Reading and Land Nav.</div></div> That should be taught an tested at all levels, and in every school.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: kraigWY</div><div class="ubbcode-body">GPS's are nice, and fun, but electronics fail. Unless the poles change like some say on Dec 21, 2012, your compass and map wont let you down. </div></div>
Even if they switch, most old school guys will still be able to use both (map&compass) rather quickly.
 
Re: Vietnam Snipers

Shoot, move, communicate.

The distillation of basic Soldiering and sniper skills comes down to a rifle, scope, eyeball, brain, and trigger finger.

I've seen guys not know where they are because their GPS was obscured by vegetation and terrain and couldn't get consistent signals. I've watched youngsters confused because their wiz-bang LCD PDF screen was black in the cold and they couldn't get a magic firing solution (and the one taped on their stock was for different bullets or calibers).

Sometimes it's good to still have memorized analog knowledge and data in a digital wired age.
 
Re: Vietnam Snipers

Most guys that have been down the road understand that, Murphy never gives up. The simpler you can keep the gear, w/o battery's (save commo) the less Murphy can hose up. In fact waking up from being cold/hot/wet or being eaten by critters/bugs can be a good thing. BTDT
Making a first round hit everytime is great, but I'd prefer to go back to back with a guy that has first rate field-craft skills over shooting any day. An I sure don't want to saddle up with a reach er who thinks it's all about a first rd hit, or shooting in general.
Making the shot does not, fall under field-craft for those that don't know.

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: sinister</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Shoot, move, communicate.</div></div>
Yep, as simple as it gets.
 
Re: Vietnam Snipers

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Quote:</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Camo/stalking: No question, if you take your time you will get a lot closer than if you move too fast.</div></div>

Unrelated story: Regarding Slowly

When they first built the Alaska Pipe Line they set up secuity stations at each pump station.

We were task to test that security. I was chosen for the probe. We jumped in, made it to the pump station with no problem.

I worked my way through several layers, Electric fence, lights, cameras, and some sort of lazer beams.

I was setting on the steps of the security shack smoking when the Alyeska PipeLine Security calls the gurad shack and tells the supervisor to step out side, He saw me and ask how I got there. I simple said "SLOWLY".

We had some pretty embarassed security guards.

AK%20pipeline%20security%20001.jpg
 
Re: Vietnam Snipers

I was definitely pre-GPS. In fact I often wonder that if those guys aren't looking at a map, How do they know the best route? You get into mountainous country, you'll not only cost yourself some serious time because you ran into a wall, the wall could be so steep, there's no way out of your own trap until it's too late.
 
Re: Vietnam Snipers

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uepseFZwUqw&feature=related

I hope this link works. its an actual interview with Gunnery Sergeant Hathcock. Alot of great information has been passed on this post. at 24 growing up in Montana, i can relate to knowing your rifle as majority of dinners consisted of meat from a game animal killed by myself brother or father. I have spent 6 yrs in the Marine Corps no I'm not a sniper just 0311 but my lessons walking the hills and killing animals served me well. This interview supports what alot of you gentelmen have been saying. Listen close around 2 minutes 30 seconds....

Regards,
Rusty
 
Re: Vietnam Snipers

Wish I could find it again, few years ago I ran across a article describing how the soldiers in the civil war were taught to shoot distance, it was a little poem to remember distance vs physical features and how high to hold over. One thing I remember was that if you can see the targets eyes, hold dead on. Turns out that it worked with my rifle on deer, if you can make out eye detail in my scope at 4x where I usually pack it, you just point and shoot. I usually take a top of the shoulder blade hold.

Point is I bet that technique was tied to the don't fire till you see the whites of their eyes.. With practice I bet standard gear would allow you to estimate distance pretty darn accurate with the naked eye out to 400+...


Dave