Vudoo + KSS Tuner

Arethustra

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  • Nov 15, 2020
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    Full disclosure, this is my first experience with a tuner so the questions might be a bit basic, but I’ve searched here and Googled for greatness without finding a lot of useful input so here goes...

    Prior to the tuner installation, my groups were decent if a bit inconsistent (.3 MOA being my best 5 shot group) -- considering the rifle is new (has less than 400 rounds through it) I feel pretty good about where things are at as the groups have been tightening up so adding the tuner was honestly just a "WTH it's just sitting there" decision to see what kind of improvement I would see...

    This is the first set of 100 YD 5 shot groups (shot on a previous trip to the range) after I first zero'ed the rifle (50 YDS) -- the rifle is a Vudoo with 18” Kukri contour in an MPA chassis; I'm using Center-X.

    Vudoo - 100 YDS.jpg


    Here are the results from the set of 5 round groups I shot after installing the KSS tuner.

    Distance was 100 YDS with a 0-1 MPH wind right to left with 0-3 MPH gusts.

    I ran 10 rounds through to warm up the barrel with the tuner on the 0 hash mark. POA was center (NOTE: Shots were low as I later found out my buddy dropped my elevation by 2 clicks while I was in the can just to mess with me - payback will be a bitch!)...I used 3 round groups during the tuning process (unless there was some question i.e., strong wind gust or a flier - ex: node 19)...The method I settled on was to move up 3 hash marks with each group.

    Here are the results:

    Vudoo - KSS Tuner - 100 YDS.jpg


    After running through 15 groups I settled on testing between nodes 3-5...I started by splitting the difference and shot a group with 4 first. First group on 4 was a little lackluster so I went from 3 to 5 rounds -- after shooting three groups I moved up to 5 (as it resulted in a .309 MOA group during testing) but ran out of time to shoot the amount of 5 shot groups I wanted for verification. Last two groups were after I dialed up 2 clicks after checking my elevation and realizing that I'd been messed with (that shit was annoying me the whole time; damn he's going to pay).

    Vudoo - KSS Tuner - 100 YDS - Confirm Shots.jpg


    My main question is: Should I have kept at the node search through more revolutions of the tuner or is the amount I did a big enough sample?

    I really only found three nodes that were decent and 11 was a bit suspect as there was no other node near it...the "tuned" groups do seem to be tighter so my sense is to clean the rifle as it's pretty filthy and then get back out to shoot more groups with the current setting to get some more confirmation that the tuner is having a positive impact.

    Would love to hear others thoughts.
     
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    kthomas

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    I haven't played with tuners on a rimfire rifle (only center-fire), however I would argue that 3-shot groups are statistically insignificant when trying to find a "precision node".

    Same problems that are present with the "Satterlee method" of load development, attempting to trying to find a velocity node with 1 shot per charge weight.

    When it comes to tuners, people seem to try and glean too much info from sample sizes that are too small to be statistically relevant. I'm going to tag in @Ledzep because he geeks out on this kind of data.

    Curious to hear what others have to say.
     
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    6.5SH

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    Besides your rifle shooting differently heavily fouled or not, you will need to keep track of temperature and velocity.

    If using ammo that is less temperature sensitive such as most biathlon ammo it will be more about lot differences and velocity.

    Ideally there should be decent groups on either side of your chosen setting. My eyeball says setting 3 based on your pics.

    I assume you dialed elevation on those last two "5" groups. If not then it likely went higher from barrel temp.

    ETA:
    For 100 yards you have many excellent groups.
     
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    Arethustra

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    I haven't played with tuners on a rimfire rifle (only center-fire), however I would argue that 3-shot groups are statistically insignificant when trying to find a "precision node".

    Same problems that are present with the "Satterlee method" of load development, attempting to trying to find a velocity node with 1 shot per charge weight.

    When it comes to tuners, people seem to try and glean too much info from sample sizes that are too small to be statistically relevant. I'm going to tag in @Ledzep because he geeks out on this kind of data.

    Curious to hear what others have to say.
    Interesting KSS recommends 2 shot groups, I thought it was too small a sample size so I ran 3 shot groups to add more precision as I looked to identify the nodes.
     

    Arethustra

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    B8ADE7BC-AED2-4791-8C64-93B44A249F5A.jpeg
    44F82668-3A32-40A0-B752-9602950EC775.jpeg

    Besides your rifle shooting differently heavily fouled or not, you will need to keep track of temperature and velocity.

    If using ammo that is less temperature sensitive such as most biathlon ammo it will be more about lot differences and velocity.

    Ideally there should be decent groups on either side of your chosen setting. My eyeball says setting 3 based on your pics.

    I assume you dialed elevation on those last two "5" groups. If not then it likely went higher from barrel temp.

    ETA:
    For 100 yards you have many excellent groups.
    Yes, I dialed up on the last two groups — I’m tracking temp (was 10 degrees cooler than the last time I shot) and will also be taking the chrono next time to check MV going forward.

    I thought similarly about the sizes but measured them and node 3 was slightly larger than 5.
     

    kthomas

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    Interesting KSS recommends 2 shot groups, I thought it was too small a sample size so I ran 3 shot groups to add more precision as I looked to identify the nodes.

    The problem with single 2, 3 or even 5 shot groups is that the shooter (and ammo) is still a huge variable.

    Was that group a bit bigger because the tuner wasn't at the optimal setting? Was it something wrong with that specific bullet? Was your trigger management perfect on that shot? Cheek weld consistent from the last shot? Did you load the bipod exactly the same as you did the last shot? Were you consistent in how you managed the rear bag?

    There's so many variables, that without a lot of shooting, how do you know that every variable besides tuner setting was perfectly isolated? Shooting is very imperfect, we provide a lot of input into the system, and while we try to achieve consistent perfection, it rarely occurs. Look up Lowlights article on his tuner experience - even he seemed a bit flustered with the process, and he is a lot more proficient shooter then most.

    Personally, now that the tuner craze is hitting our discipline, I think many are oversimplifying the process and trying to extrapolate data that's essentially meaningless due to small sample sizes. Much like the "Satterlee method" of reloading when they was popular.
     

    6.5SH

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    Yes, I dialed up on the last two groups — I’m tracking temp (was 10 degrees cooler than the last time I shot) and will also be taking the chrono next time to check MV going forward.

    I thought similarly about the sizes but measured them and node 3 was slightly larger than 5.
    Right, but setting 7 was way larger. Unless 6 was tiny as well, 5 was on the edge of a tuning window based on what your 0, 3, 5 pics show.

    Shooting groups with 1-6 settings may show more of a trend.
     
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    FromMyColdDeadHand

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    F me, stats coming back to haunt me. I don't think that you can say that they are just three round groups. You are changing the tuner settings, and from what I understand the 'nodes' will be a few units wide. So you are really shooting larger than 3 shots groups since you are in some ways aggregating the groups together. Plus, we are looking for good groups. What are the chances of a good group when it is actually a bad setting- not that good. If you get a bad group when it is a good setting? Probably not that good. Getting good or bad groups back to back to miss a node? Less likely.

    To me the question is am I shooting a good group, or the best group I can get. I don't know if you ever really answer that second one. The first one, you shoot your groups and then go back and refine. If is a bad setting that had given a good group, you'll know it pretty fast.

    So to me, it isn't any single shot or even three shot group, it is the trend. And then you confirm the trend.

    At least that is how I'm wrapping my head around it.

    That and the comments about the 1x9 having a greater propensity for fliers are what I'm looking at now.
     

    Turboshooter

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    First tune the rifle @50 yds not 100. If its tune @50 it will be tuned @100 yardage makes no difference. Once a true tune has been found the gun will never need to be tuned again just find the right lot of ammo. When you're testing or trying to tune @100 you're bringing in way to many variables. Shoot over flags learn to read them, even the smallest amounts of wind can have a drastic affect on target.
     

    Arethustra

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  • Nov 15, 2020
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    Right, but setting 7 was way larger. Unless 6 was tiny as well, 5 was on the edge of a tuning window based on what your 0, 3, 5 pics show.

    Shooting groups with 1-6 settings may show more of a trend.
    Shit. You’re right. 🤦🏻‍♂️ I didn’t see the forest for the trees — I need to look more at that trend and check the earlier nodes. Thanks!
     

    Ledzep

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    Firstly, I'm NOT saying that I don't think tuners have any effect on precision. It's pretty evident by simply installing and removing a suppressor that changing the weight/distribution on the end of a barrel has an effect on dispersion. However, I am seriously skeptical of the "Shoot 2 until they touch, then shoot 3" adjustment method-- or really even the fact that you're moving the mass .001-.005" at a time and expecting changes in performance at each increment.

    I could be wrong, I haven't tested tuners yet, but my intuition is telling me that a guy would probably have more luck with ring weights in half-ounce increments than moving a tuner .001" at a time.

    Then the issue of sample size... same story here as everywhere else. 10 shots is a "feeler" that can't be trusted alone to qualify dispersion. 20 is the floor, 30 is better. 2 shots, 3 shots, 5 shots other than very informal warm-fuzzy checks are not repeatable enough to quantify and say "Group A is better than Group B". So far (and understandably so...), I've not seen anyone thoroughly test tuners, and I haven't got there myself yet, either.

    Obviously most folks don't want to shoot 20-30 shots per variable. I don't have a really good solution to offer, as much as I have some perspective. If you're willing to accept the results of 3-5 shot group "tests", in which there is so much variation that you can't trust the results if you understand probability and statistics, you're probably just as well off just winging it, picking a load, picking a setting, and verifying that it doesn't suck.

    Analyzing small data sample sets has largely contributed to 2 things in my opinion. A) Belief in levels of precision that are not realistic, and B) Reading noise causing a belief in sinusoidal "nodes" that in my thousands of rounds of testing have never materialized.
     

    littlesister

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    Feb 21, 2021
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    Full disclosure, this is my first experience with a tuner so the questions might be a bit basic, but I’ve searched here and Googled for greatness without finding a lot of useful input so here goes...

    Prior to the tuner installation, my groups were decent if a bit inconsistent (.3 MOA being my best 5 shot group) -- considering the rifle is new (has less than 400 rounds through it) I feel pretty good about where things are at as the groups have been tightening up so adding the tuner was honestly just a "WTH it's just sitting there" decision to see what kind of improvement I would see...

    This is the first set of 100 YD 5 shot groups (shot on a previous trip to the range) after I first zero'ed the rifle (50 YDS) -- the rifle is a Vudoo with 18” Kukri contour in an MPA chassis; I'm using Center-X.

    View attachment 7780623

    Here are the results from the set of 5 round groups I shot after installing the KSS tuner.

    Distance was 100 YDS with a 0-1 MPH wind right to left with 0-3 MPH gusts.

    I ran 10 rounds through to warm up the barrel with the tuner on the 0 hash mark. POA was center (NOTE: Shots were low as I later found out my buddy dropped my elevation by 2 clicks while I was in the can just to mess with me - payback will be a bitch!)...I used 3 round groups during the tuning process (unless there was some question i.e., strong wind gust or a flier - ex: node 19)...The method I settled on was to move up 3 hash marks with each group.

    Here are the results:

    View attachment 7780208

    After running through 15 groups I settled on testing between nodes 3-5...I started by splitting the difference and shot a group with 4 first. First group on 4 was a little lackluster so I went from 3 to 5 rounds -- after shooting three groups I moved up to 5 (as it resulted in a .309 MOA group during testing) but ran out of time to shoot the amount of 5 shot groups I wanted for verification. Last two groups were after I dialed up 2 clicks after checking my elevation and realizing that I'd been messed with (that shit was annoying me the whole time; damn he's going to pay).

    View attachment 7780222

    My main question is: Should I have kept at the node search through more revolutions of the tuner or is the amount I did a big enough sample?

    I really only found three nodes that were decent and 11 was a bit suspect as there was no other node near it...the "tuned" groups do seem to be tighter so my sense is to clean the rifle as it's pretty filthy and then get back out to shoot more groups with the current setting to get some more confirmation that the tuner is having a positive impact.

    Would love to hear others tho
     

    littlesister

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    Feb 21, 2021
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    Full disclosure, this is my first experience with a tuner so the questions might be a bit basic, but I’ve searched here and Googled for greatness without finding a lot of useful input so here goes...

    Prior to the tuner installation, my groups were decent if a bit inconsistent (.3 MOA being my best 5 shot group) -- considering the rifle is new (has less than 400 rounds through it) I feel pretty good about where things are at as the groups have been tightening up so adding the tuner was honestly just a "WTH it's just sitting there" decision to see what kind of improvement I would see...

    This is the first set of 100 YD 5 shot groups (shot on a previous trip to the range) after I first zero'ed the rifle (50 YDS) -- the rifle is a Vudoo with 18” Kukri contour in an MPA chassis; I'm using Center-X.

    View attachment 7780623

    Here are the results from the set of 5 round groups I shot after installing the KSS tuner.

    Distance was 100 YDS with a 0-1 MPH wind right to left with 0-3 MPH gusts.

    I ran 10 rounds through to warm up the barrel with the tuner on the 0 hash mark. POA was center (NOTE: Shots were low as I later found out my buddy dropped my elevation by 2 clicks while I was in the can just to mess with me - payback will be a bitch!)...I used 3 round groups during the tuning process (unless there was some question i.e., strong wind gust or a flier - ex: node 19)...The method I settled on was to move up 3 hash marks with each group.

    Here are the results:

    View attachment 7780208

    After running through 15 groups I settled on testing between nodes 3-5...I started by splitting the difference and shot a group with 4 first. First group on 4 was a little lackluster so I went from 3 to 5 rounds -- after shooting three groups I moved up to 5 (as it resulted in a .309 MOA group during testing) but ran out of time to shoot the amount of 5 shot groups I wanted for verification. Last two groups were after I dialed up 2 clicks after checking my elevation and realizing that I'd been messed with (that shit was annoying me the whole time; damn he's going to pay).

    View attachment 7780222

    My main question is: Should I have kept at the node search through more revolutions of the tuner or is the amount I did a big enough sample?

    I really only found three nodes that were decent and 11 was a bit suspect as there was no other node near it...the "tuned" groups do seem to be tighter so my sense is to clean the rifle as it's pretty filthy and then get back out to shoot more groups with the current setting to get some more confirmation that the tuner is having a positive impact.

    Would love to hear others thou

    Full disclosure, this is my first experience with a tuner so the questions might be a bit basic, but I’ve searched here and Googled for greatness without finding a lot of useful input so here goes...

    Prior to the tuner installation, my groups were decent if a bit inconsistent (.3 MOA being my best 5 shot group) -- considering the rifle is new (has less than 400 rounds through it) I feel pretty good about where things are at as the groups have been tightening up so adding the tuner was honestly just a "WTH it's just sitting there" decision to see what kind of improvement I would see...

    This is the first set of 100 YD 5 shot groups (shot on a previous trip to the range) after I first zero'ed the rifle (50 YDS) -- the rifle is a Vudoo with 18” Kukri contour in an MPA chassis; I'm using Center-X.

    View attachment 7780623

    Here are the results from the set of 5 round groups I shot after installing the KSS tuner.

    Distance was 100 YDS with a 0-1 MPH wind right to left with 0-3 MPH gusts.

    I ran 10 rounds through to warm up the barrel with the tuner on the 0 hash mark. POA was center (NOTE: Shots were low as I later found out my buddy dropped my elevation by 2 clicks while I was in the can just to mess with me - payback will be a bitch!)...I used 3 round groups during the tuning process (unless there was some question i.e., strong wind gust or a flier - ex: node 19)...The method I settled on was to move up 3 hash marks with each group.

    Here are the results:

    View attachment 7780208

    After running through 15 groups I settled on testing between nodes 3-5...I started by splitting the difference and shot a group with 4 first. First group on 4 was a little lackluster so I went from 3 to 5 rounds -- after shooting three groups I moved up to 5 (as it resulted in a .309 MOA group during testing) but ran out of time to shoot the amount of 5 shot groups I wanted for verification. Last two groups were after I dialed up 2 clicks after checking my elevation and realizing that I'd been messed with (that shit was annoying me the whole time; damn he's going to pay).

    View attachment 7780222

    My main question is: Should I have kept at the node search through more revolutions of the tuner or is the amount I did a big enough sample?

    I really only found three nodes that were decent and 11 was a bit suspect as there was no other node near it...the "tuned" groups do seem to be tighter so my sense is to clean the rifle as it's pretty filthy and then get back out to shoot more groups with the current setting to get some more confirmation that the tuner is having a positive impact.

    Would love to hear others thoughts.
    Never heard of a KSS tuner but assuming it's a standard weight Harrells purchased from Killoughs a few thing to think about. Use the Hopewell tuning method to start with. Tune at 50yds or a little less. Remember that you're trying to eliminate verticle stringing and last but not least. I doubt seriously that a 18 in barrel will respond to a standard weight Harrells tuner. They do offer a weight kit.
     

    kthomas

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    Never heard of a KSS tuner but assuming it's a standard weight Harrells purchased from Killoughs a few thing to think about. Use the Hopewell tuning method to start with. Tune at 50yds or a little less. Remember that you're trying to eliminate verticle stringing and last but not least. I doubt seriously that a 18 in barrel will respond to a standard weight Harrells tuner. They do offer a weight kit.

    I believe he is referencing this tuner brand:

     
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    Turboshooter

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    Never heard of a KSS tuner but assuming it's a standard weight Harrells purchased from Killoughs a few thing to think about. Use the Hopewell tuning method to start with. Tune at 50yds or a little less. Remember that you're trying to eliminate verticle stringing and last but not least. I doubt seriously that a 18 in barrel will respond to a standard weight Harrells tuner. They do offer a weight kit.

    I doubt he will ever get a 18 inch barrel tuned . Stiffer the barrel the less weight required to get it in tune. I would look into a shaved harrell if it will tune at all. Good luck is all i can say at this point
     

    littlesister

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    I doubt he will ever get a 18 inch barrel tuned . Stiffer the barrel the less weight required to get it in tune. I would look into a shaved harrell if it will tune at all. Good luck is all i can say at this point
    You may be right on less weight. I know I have never had any success tuning short heavy barrels .
     

    Arethustra

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  • Nov 15, 2020
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    Thanks for all the input! I’m heading back to the range tomorrow, will explore nodes 1-6 at 50 YDS this time. Will share the results of that as well as the follow-on 100 YD results assuming I have the time enough to shoot a few strings at that distance.

    Also got the chronograph mount for the chassis all setup so I’ll also be able to get a better feel for the performance of this lot of Center-X that I’m using. Should be fun.
     

    Turboshooter

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    Thanks for all the input! I’m heading back to the range tomorrow, will explore nodes 1-6 at 50 YDS this time. Will share the results of that as well as the follow-on 100 YD results assuming I have the time enough to shoot a few strings at that distance.

    Also got the chronograph mount for the chassis all setup so I’ll also be able to get a better feel for the performance of this lot of Center-X that I’m using. Should be fun.

    If you aren't shooting over wind flags you're wasting your time.
     

    Defender32

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    I have played with the ATS KSS Tuner and the Eric Cortina EC Tuner. Both work well. I will find a node with 2 shots each target at 50 yards. Then do a moderate adjust and check at 100 with 5 or 10 shot groups. Then ill follow what Di Precision suggests and final adjust on the tuner at 200 yards. This is my Kreiger 22" 16T MTU W/ EC Tuner. First picture is 50 yards. Second picture is 15 rounds at 200 yards. 3 squares in the 3rd picture is 1". This is SK Long Range.
    F92C906C-6B8C-41CC-A8A0-ED26DB674AEA.jpeg
    35A14552-5390-4547-8975-A0BFC0CBB994_1_201_a.jpeg
    tempImagestDSZ3.png
     

    Arethustra

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    I believe he is referencing this tuner brand:

    Yes, that’s the one…I looked at a bunch of different tuners and ended up going with the KSS as I was seeing it on a lot of the Vudoos in write-ups. Not the most scientific approach to a selection but it was intended as more of an experiment than anything else.
     
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    Arethustra

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    I have played with the ATS KSS Tuner and the Eric Cortina EC Tuner. Both work well. I will find a node with 2 shots each target at 50 yards. Then do a moderate adjust and check at 100 with 5 or 10 shot groups. Then ill follow what Di Precision suggests and final adjust on the tuner at 200 yards. This is my Kreiger 22" 16T MTU W/ EC Tuner. First picture is 50 yards. Second picture is 15 rounds at 200 yards. 3 squares in the 3rd picture is 1". This is SK Long Range. View attachment 7782503View attachment 7782504View attachment 7782505
    Which version of the EC tuner are you using?
     

    Arethustra

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    Looked like it was shooting pretty good without the tuner. I don’t know what your end goal is but if it’s matches I’d take it off and go shoot.
    Yes, setting up for NRL22 matches. Since our range goes out to 200 YDS, and I can add on non-standard COFs into the mix, I’m going to be pushing those additional COFs out to between 150-200. The impetus for finally putting the tuner on was to see if I could tighten up the groups that I was seeing at 200 YDS; they weren’t bad by any means, but every little bit helps.
     

    Defender32

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    Which version of the EC tuner are you using?
    It's machined onto the barrel. I do not have the adapter for normal thread pitches then the tuner on that. Mine was fully set up and machined by Di Precision. The tuner is the EXACT same tuner. Just a different mounting surface. The adapter and tuner combo will add length to the overall barrel length.
     

    Arethustra

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    I thought more about how to go forward with testing in a more rigorous manner since it's basically a lot of time and money (i.e., ammo) so for yesterday's testing, I went back to the 50 YD range as this controls wind, which I think was my most volatile variable (the 50 YD range is walled in so there is next to no wind input possible) at longer range and then created my control "group" which was 10 5 RND groups with no tuner. Then I explored Nodes 4, 5 & 6 measuring groups with Ballistic-x as I went.

    This more organized approach showed some interesting data after I crunched all the initial numbers. My control group had an average size of .754 MOA which was kinda "meh"...

    Node 4 was .714 MOA

    Node 5 was .738 MOA

    Node 6 was .669 MOA

    So, with more testing it appears that Nodes 6 has netted me an 11.34% reduction in group size over my stock barrels performance.

    Also was running the Magnetospeed mounted on an arca bayonet to capture MV which was interesting as the Center-X's performance was averaging a MV 1057 sith a S-D of 8.0 and an ES of 46 at 55 degrees. Have to capture more data on that front as I was only able to get the capture working properly about halfway through the session.