We are not nation building again. We are killing terrorists. - The President
- Thread starter Redmanss
- Start date
We don't even need more troops there.
We simply need a ROE that lets us kill them instead of worrying about peoples' feelings.
We simply need a ROE that lets us kill them instead of worrying about peoples' feelings.
I didn't hear him say specifically they were going to change the ROE. He danced around it. Pakistan will jump in bed if we give them obscene amounts of money. More obscene amounts than we do now. Nope. Conventional Generals advised how to fight an unconventional war. Again. Nothing new here. Blah blah Pakistan blah blah kill the terrorists blah blah blah. My grandkids will be fighting in Afghanistan at this rate. I hope I'm wrong.
You're not wrong about Grandkids fighting in Afghanistan. Grandkids have been fighting in Afghanistan for centuries, only the flags change.
The place is invested with hatred; a hatred of anything that isn't exclusively home grown. They are deliberately, voluntarily mired in feudalism, ignorance, and violence. When those qualities become the core of a culture, it is a malignancy. Russia learned that. The British Learned that, and I well imagine that even Alexander of Macedonia learned that. If we haven't learned that yet, we are fools. One does not reform a malignancy. It needs to be excised. Like cancer, the only way to stop its inroads is to cut it out, burn it out, or poison it out.
The world has a disease, and its primary infection is centered in Afghanistan and Pakistan. This is not an American issue, or even a Western one, it affects the entire planet. One cannot ignore it, because unchecked, it immediately spreads. One cannot pacify it, because the infection regrows instantly, constantly.
Every outside force that has tried to intervene has left the job unfinished. This because the forces are wielded by the proponents of decency. But decency is not doing the job, has not been doing it for millennia. Something truly drastic, and yes, indecent, is called for.
The last Great Unpleasantness, WWII, was not won by advancing peoples' feelings. It was only won after much rationalization and sacrifice, and ultimately, by repositioning the line separating decency from indecency for the duration. The means and the outcome depressed and discouraged us, It exceeded the limits of decency. But such excesses spell the difference between forging an enduring conclusion, and having to be constantly called upon to readdress the same festering malignancies.
To solve a problem, one must resolve the causes. We don't. We haven't since 1945. Our current legacy of forever war is the direct consequence. It drains and sours our entire existence. As someone once said, it's better to just "git 'er done".
Time to (well past time) to git 'er done.
Greg
The place is invested with hatred; a hatred of anything that isn't exclusively home grown. They are deliberately, voluntarily mired in feudalism, ignorance, and violence. When those qualities become the core of a culture, it is a malignancy. Russia learned that. The British Learned that, and I well imagine that even Alexander of Macedonia learned that. If we haven't learned that yet, we are fools. One does not reform a malignancy. It needs to be excised. Like cancer, the only way to stop its inroads is to cut it out, burn it out, or poison it out.
The world has a disease, and its primary infection is centered in Afghanistan and Pakistan. This is not an American issue, or even a Western one, it affects the entire planet. One cannot ignore it, because unchecked, it immediately spreads. One cannot pacify it, because the infection regrows instantly, constantly.
Every outside force that has tried to intervene has left the job unfinished. This because the forces are wielded by the proponents of decency. But decency is not doing the job, has not been doing it for millennia. Something truly drastic, and yes, indecent, is called for.
The last Great Unpleasantness, WWII, was not won by advancing peoples' feelings. It was only won after much rationalization and sacrifice, and ultimately, by repositioning the line separating decency from indecency for the duration. The means and the outcome depressed and discouraged us, It exceeded the limits of decency. But such excesses spell the difference between forging an enduring conclusion, and having to be constantly called upon to readdress the same festering malignancies.
To solve a problem, one must resolve the causes. We don't. We haven't since 1945. Our current legacy of forever war is the direct consequence. It drains and sours our entire existence. As someone once said, it's better to just "git 'er done".
Time to (well past time) to git 'er done.
Greg
Last edited:
The continued issue ahead of us regardless of a renewed approach of we are killing terrorists, is that there is still no exit plan to this approach
Ideology is endless. This is not a situation where there are "x" number of terrorists and once gone we are done
After 16 years at this we are literally now rightly the children of the original terrorists whose beliefs and ideology has been cemented by the death and destruction they have witnessed at the hands of a foreign "invading" force.
Although I agree that the world should have no place for these fools the idea of wiping them out is as niece and utopian as many of the left wing ideals conservatives often mock
Nation building has its place because In The destruction left behind by a military surge will be left a vacuum filled by ideologs who will gain support because these are often the groups who show up first with solutions food and "security" as false as it may be especially in the out lying areas.
And so goes the cycle
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
Ideology is endless. This is not a situation where there are "x" number of terrorists and once gone we are done
After 16 years at this we are literally now rightly the children of the original terrorists whose beliefs and ideology has been cemented by the death and destruction they have witnessed at the hands of a foreign "invading" force.
Although I agree that the world should have no place for these fools the idea of wiping them out is as niece and utopian as many of the left wing ideals conservatives often mock
Nation building has its place because In The destruction left behind by a military surge will be left a vacuum filled by ideologs who will gain support because these are often the groups who show up first with solutions food and "security" as false as it may be especially in the out lying areas.
And so goes the cycle
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
Decency is a pleasant fiction. it allows a people to indulge in the addiction of self delusion. It prompts the popular, though smarmy, delusion that we are all good people, who all have each others best interests at heart.
Were this true, we would have no need of Police and Penitentiaries, Armies, Navies, and Aerospace forces. But we do.
When we look in our mirrors we see what we want to see, and it's seldom whats actually there. I could forgive this if that were the end of it. But it isn't. Decency governs a sequence of daily actions that is based upon a faulty logic; that we are all perfectly good, and we all want to do the right thing. But we are not all good, and doing the right thing sometimes runs afoul of that streak of decency we believe is uppermost in our personae.
Decency is a good thing, but it's not the only thing; especially when indecency is the bitter root upon which we must chew every day. We refuse to stoop to indecency. But to conquer indecency, one must recognize that goodness includes, must include, some indecency. One does not conquer indecency without mastering those who employ it, and to be effective, that must include ourselves. It is but another tool, to be used judiciously in the effort to do the right thing.
I won't try to define 'the right thing'. But I will suggest that evil and exploitation must not be any part of it.
Dominance exists. It has-been a part of human nature since before there was a thing we could truly call human.
This is where Democracy falls short, for it assumes that dominance is a simple and easy thing, and that we humans will willingly submit to the dominance of others, no matter how they are chosen. But this is at direct odds with self determination, and the execution of free will. I wish it were otherwise, but it is not.
Would I replace Democracy. I would, but only if I could do so with something 'better'. And I would wait until Hell freezes over in the expectation that the Democratic Process would, or even could, render such a conclusion.
The necessary change will come, and it will do so in another way. The current state of our own Constitutional Democracy convinces me that it will come, and also that the Democratic Process will not, cannot, be the engine of that change.
We have been voting for change for a long time, but sad to say, voting does not appear capable of bringing the manner of change that is actually effective.
We have been fighting evil for a long time, but fighting evil requires that the tie binding our hands behind our backs. This decency, probably needs to be severed; maybe briefly, maybe longer. When (if) it is, we will do it for each other in the grim recognition that it is an act whose time is necessarily come.
Keep the decency, but recognize that when the times become unacceptably infeasible, decency may need to be set aside for the duration, so that decency can then be reinstated in an environment where it has some chance of success.
Greg
Were this true, we would have no need of Police and Penitentiaries, Armies, Navies, and Aerospace forces. But we do.
When we look in our mirrors we see what we want to see, and it's seldom whats actually there. I could forgive this if that were the end of it. But it isn't. Decency governs a sequence of daily actions that is based upon a faulty logic; that we are all perfectly good, and we all want to do the right thing. But we are not all good, and doing the right thing sometimes runs afoul of that streak of decency we believe is uppermost in our personae.
Decency is a good thing, but it's not the only thing; especially when indecency is the bitter root upon which we must chew every day. We refuse to stoop to indecency. But to conquer indecency, one must recognize that goodness includes, must include, some indecency. One does not conquer indecency without mastering those who employ it, and to be effective, that must include ourselves. It is but another tool, to be used judiciously in the effort to do the right thing.
I won't try to define 'the right thing'. But I will suggest that evil and exploitation must not be any part of it.
Dominance exists. It has-been a part of human nature since before there was a thing we could truly call human.
This is where Democracy falls short, for it assumes that dominance is a simple and easy thing, and that we humans will willingly submit to the dominance of others, no matter how they are chosen. But this is at direct odds with self determination, and the execution of free will. I wish it were otherwise, but it is not.
Would I replace Democracy. I would, but only if I could do so with something 'better'. And I would wait until Hell freezes over in the expectation that the Democratic Process would, or even could, render such a conclusion.
The necessary change will come, and it will do so in another way. The current state of our own Constitutional Democracy convinces me that it will come, and also that the Democratic Process will not, cannot, be the engine of that change.
We have been voting for change for a long time, but sad to say, voting does not appear capable of bringing the manner of change that is actually effective.
We have been fighting evil for a long time, but fighting evil requires that the tie binding our hands behind our backs. This decency, probably needs to be severed; maybe briefly, maybe longer. When (if) it is, we will do it for each other in the grim recognition that it is an act whose time is necessarily come.
Keep the decency, but recognize that when the times become unacceptably infeasible, decency may need to be set aside for the duration, so that decency can then be reinstated in an environment where it has some chance of success.
Greg
Last edited:
You're right, there is no exit plan to the effort to kill terrorists.
I think this is partly the consequence of what I call the Pandora Effect. Also the Eve Legacy.
Once evil is loosed upon the world, it is there to stay. So there my never be a valid exit plan, because there may be no such exit available
But we cannot shrink from the necessary steps to removing as much evil as can be removed. The steps must have a first one, and the first one has to include killing terrorists. It will take a better person than myself to craft such an exit strategy, but if we don't take the first steps, the can be no exit strategy.
We will be defunct. Define defunct... They will never bring the Nation down, but they have already brought key pieces of of what it stands for down, or maybe we aren't noticing the benevolent ministrations of Homeland Security. And then there's our current political "welcome the refugees", and "pamper the illegals" infighting. How long before that becomes a divisive weakness opening the door inviting foreign adventurism on our own soil? No all that much longer, I reckon.
Time (well past) to get off the dime.
If I needed a reason to damn Obama, it would be for his, and his predecessors, having dithered and posed while this threat grew from its infancy. One does not conquest evil by patting the heads of its children and murmuring, "There's a good boy.., here, have a couple of billion bucks and dream sweet dreams about us being your friends."
It may be a dream, but for me, it's a nightmare. My Grandkids have to fend in this world long after my departure.
And all this is brought to us through our staunch defenders Clinton and Kerry. May they enjoy eternal torment, all in due time.
Greg
I think this is partly the consequence of what I call the Pandora Effect. Also the Eve Legacy.
Once evil is loosed upon the world, it is there to stay. So there my never be a valid exit plan, because there may be no such exit available
But we cannot shrink from the necessary steps to removing as much evil as can be removed. The steps must have a first one, and the first one has to include killing terrorists. It will take a better person than myself to craft such an exit strategy, but if we don't take the first steps, the can be no exit strategy.
We will be defunct. Define defunct... They will never bring the Nation down, but they have already brought key pieces of of what it stands for down, or maybe we aren't noticing the benevolent ministrations of Homeland Security. And then there's our current political "welcome the refugees", and "pamper the illegals" infighting. How long before that becomes a divisive weakness opening the door inviting foreign adventurism on our own soil? No all that much longer, I reckon.
Time (well past) to get off the dime.
If I needed a reason to damn Obama, it would be for his, and his predecessors, having dithered and posed while this threat grew from its infancy. One does not conquest evil by patting the heads of its children and murmuring, "There's a good boy.., here, have a couple of billion bucks and dream sweet dreams about us being your friends."
It may be a dream, but for me, it's a nightmare. My Grandkids have to fend in this world long after my departure.
And all this is brought to us through our staunch defenders Clinton and Kerry. May they enjoy eternal torment, all in due time.
Greg
Last edited:
I think to often we draw upon the the success of WWII in stopping an evil aggressive regime as a blueprint to solving current problems. We also tend to do this with out recognizing the actual investment made to accomplish that win along with the continued investment that followed.
We literally halted everyday production and consumerism in this country and most of the west to produce the win that was WWII and even then it took years to ramp up and implement.
Is that level of effort needed today....maybe!
Also look at the results and efforts needed there.
We helped rebuild Japan and Germany
We jumped in along with other powers to fill the void and to quickly create a functioning nation state which could stand on its own
One issue in places like Afghanistan parts of Iraq and Africa is there isn't the infrastructure. Even in bomb blasted Germany post WWII there was a level of infrastructure and knowledge for obtaining and a mechanism to rebuild.
Without that infrastructure tribalism will remain. And as long as tribalism remains fringe ideology will have a disproportionate level of influence
The amount of money time and life equity that would actually be needed to functionally eliminate this enemy and safe guard against its beer immediate resurgence is a price too high for this generation of politicians to pay
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
We literally halted everyday production and consumerism in this country and most of the west to produce the win that was WWII and even then it took years to ramp up and implement.
Is that level of effort needed today....maybe!
Also look at the results and efforts needed there.
We helped rebuild Japan and Germany
We jumped in along with other powers to fill the void and to quickly create a functioning nation state which could stand on its own
One issue in places like Afghanistan parts of Iraq and Africa is there isn't the infrastructure. Even in bomb blasted Germany post WWII there was a level of infrastructure and knowledge for obtaining and a mechanism to rebuild.
Without that infrastructure tribalism will remain. And as long as tribalism remains fringe ideology will have a disproportionate level of influence
The amount of money time and life equity that would actually be needed to functionally eliminate this enemy and safe guard against its beer immediate resurgence is a price too high for this generation of politicians to pay
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
I just went back and watched it on YouTube. In the version I saw, it was at the 16:30 mark that he specifically stated that he had rescinded the previous administration's ROEs and was putting discretion back in the hands of the commanders and troops in the field. We'll see what that means.
As for Pakistan, I think most of us that fought in the south would agree that the true hardcore Talis were Pakistanis, and that we were largely fighting Paki Taliban in Afgh. The local bombers were natives, but a lot of the honchos came over the border for the fighting season. At least he had the nuts to flat out call Pakistan on their bullshit of accepting our money while harboring and supporting our enemies. In a public address that's a "yuge" step for a President to take. Our State Dept can make shit very uncomfortable for the govt of Pakistan if so directed. That part of the speech seemed to be a shot across the bow putting them on notice.
In general I thought that once the speech actually centered on Afgh, that he said a lot of shit that many of us have been screaming for quite some time.
The Paki's have The Bomb. I don't actually worry about nuclear incursions by the Paki Air Force, but Paki bombs could be placed in Conex containers, loaded onto freighters, and sailed right into our ports. Not a small issue to be thinking about. Not a tiny consideration coaxing to my family's move to the Southwestern High Desert.
Personally, I favor preemption, but I don't think the Pentagon will be taking advice from the likes of me. Actually, that's probably a good thing, possibly even a very good thing.
BTW, even having a Pentagon is an outdated notion. Back on PI, in the mid-60's, they taught us "Don't bunch up, one bomb'll get you all...", but oddly, the Pentagon ignores the simpler truth contained therein.
Oh, well....
Greg
Personally, I favor preemption, but I don't think the Pentagon will be taking advice from the likes of me. Actually, that's probably a good thing, possibly even a very good thing.
BTW, even having a Pentagon is an outdated notion. Back on PI, in the mid-60's, they taught us "Don't bunch up, one bomb'll get you all...", but oddly, the Pentagon ignores the simpler truth contained therein.
Oh, well....
Greg
ROE's; something that pretty much came after WWII. or at least became overarching around about then.
Eisenhower had Roosevelt.
Our later generations had Obama, Bush, Clinton, Nixon, Johnson, etc. No wonder we are a nation of nation builders, and not pack of steely eyed cold killers. As warriors go, I prefer the latter; and if anyone balks at the description, we'll know we're listening to a snowflake.
ROE's are the surest sign of a National Command Authority that's afraid to actually win a victory, but has no hesitations about putting American lives in harm's way while they're doing it.
Good to see the Trump revolution is ongoing. I think it's time to clear the decks and ready up for 11/4/2017. Things should shake out well and truly shortly thereafter.
Not makin' trouble, just keepin' a weather eye out for it.
Good to know they telegraph their punches.
Greg
Eisenhower had Roosevelt.
Our later generations had Obama, Bush, Clinton, Nixon, Johnson, etc. No wonder we are a nation of nation builders, and not pack of steely eyed cold killers. As warriors go, I prefer the latter; and if anyone balks at the description, we'll know we're listening to a snowflake.
ROE's are the surest sign of a National Command Authority that's afraid to actually win a victory, but has no hesitations about putting American lives in harm's way while they're doing it.
Good to see the Trump revolution is ongoing. I think it's time to clear the decks and ready up for 11/4/2017. Things should shake out well and truly shortly thereafter.
Not makin' trouble, just keepin' a weather eye out for it.
Good to know they telegraph their punches.
Greg
Last edited:
For once I kinda enjoyed Big Dons speech . As said above , about time .
India is struggling along with Paki on the left and China on the right , time
for some serious high altitude ' training ' exercises .
Some attention to the opium growing problem in Afghan , and Pakis well
established distribution of same would be appreciated too .
India is struggling along with Paki on the left and China on the right , time
for some serious high altitude ' training ' exercises .
Some attention to the opium growing problem in Afghan , and Pakis well
established distribution of same would be appreciated too .
Back on topic...
The war in Afghanistan is something very near and dear to me, starting when I was amongst the first conventional forces to hit the ground there before the WTC was even done smoldering in November 2001, to the eight years I worked over there on the civilian contractor side. I've buried far too many friends as a result of that country, watched with dismay as the war was mismanaged for years, and the the final stages of my work over there I watched as Obama's DoD couldn't get out of there fast enough. They were declaring projects done when they were in shambles, and declaring Afghan units combat ready when they didn't even have a rifle for every man or more than a few days of fuel on hand. I've witnessed Three-Star Generals outright lying to Congressional commissions touring my camp on ANP readiness and capabilities, whitewashing the whole time so they would allow them to shut it down and move on to the next project needing closing before its time. Meanwhile, Karzai made Obama and Petraeus his personal cuckold bitches, blocking any moves that would be successful in that country, yet they never would stop the suitcases of Benjamins being delivered monthly to the Presidential Palace to fill his now billionaire coffers. It was a fucking travesty, the most irresponsible form of so-called foreign policy I have ever witnessed, and THAT is the reason I am glad of the new move to simply destroying the enemy and stopping trying to direct the Afghan government's actions while they only make ministers rich on our tax dollars.
I hung up my M4 at the beginning of 2015, vowing not to first hand watch it spiral down as I both knew it would and as it very much has, wrote every last SIV recommendation letter I could for the men and women who worked for me (and most of which have made it stateside now and are safe with their families), and I came home thinking yet another inept politician would take the helm, continue to pander to the Kabul elite, and waste billions upon billions of pet projects that do zero good to keeping America and our allies safe while thinking an occasional Hellfire from a drone actually does good. Daesh took their foothold, the Taliban grew stronger than ever, and as much as I've said on this very forum that we should put them and all the rest on alert that we're done dealing with them and institute an embargo to every single one of them that thumb their noses at us, I know the reality is far different. Kill them there, kill them here, kill them everywhere we find them.
I wish the warfighters downrange happy hunting with light winds and dense air support. Wish I was there still, best job I ever had, even in the depths of the suck.
The war in Afghanistan is something very near and dear to me, starting when I was amongst the first conventional forces to hit the ground there before the WTC was even done smoldering in November 2001, to the eight years I worked over there on the civilian contractor side. I've buried far too many friends as a result of that country, watched with dismay as the war was mismanaged for years, and the the final stages of my work over there I watched as Obama's DoD couldn't get out of there fast enough. They were declaring projects done when they were in shambles, and declaring Afghan units combat ready when they didn't even have a rifle for every man or more than a few days of fuel on hand. I've witnessed Three-Star Generals outright lying to Congressional commissions touring my camp on ANP readiness and capabilities, whitewashing the whole time so they would allow them to shut it down and move on to the next project needing closing before its time. Meanwhile, Karzai made Obama and Petraeus his personal cuckold bitches, blocking any moves that would be successful in that country, yet they never would stop the suitcases of Benjamins being delivered monthly to the Presidential Palace to fill his now billionaire coffers. It was a fucking travesty, the most irresponsible form of so-called foreign policy I have ever witnessed, and THAT is the reason I am glad of the new move to simply destroying the enemy and stopping trying to direct the Afghan government's actions while they only make ministers rich on our tax dollars.
I hung up my M4 at the beginning of 2015, vowing not to first hand watch it spiral down as I both knew it would and as it very much has, wrote every last SIV recommendation letter I could for the men and women who worked for me (and most of which have made it stateside now and are safe with their families), and I came home thinking yet another inept politician would take the helm, continue to pander to the Kabul elite, and waste billions upon billions of pet projects that do zero good to keeping America and our allies safe while thinking an occasional Hellfire from a drone actually does good. Daesh took their foothold, the Taliban grew stronger than ever, and as much as I've said on this very forum that we should put them and all the rest on alert that we're done dealing with them and institute an embargo to every single one of them that thumb their noses at us, I know the reality is far different. Kill them there, kill them here, kill them everywhere we find them.
I wish the warfighters downrange happy hunting with light winds and dense air support. Wish I was there still, best job I ever had, even in the depths of the suck.
Time for R&R an healing ? OK, I'll go with the one in the middle.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4BIIDn-0jRg
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4BIIDn-0jRg
For sure. I sense a happy disturbance in the force, sort of like a Bob Ross brushstroke.
<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/9UaJAnnipkY" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
Everybody do their happy dance!
Well all things end, but with you tube videos the enjoyment can last a long time. To bad he was shown the door, I was starting to enjoy it. Is that good or bad? I'll give him one thing I woke up to his ink an will never be civil to that mentally again, ever, for as long as I live.lmfao AND great choice.. Now then............
I'm pretty sure it's good Brother.
The keyboard ninja's get the attention they so deserve and crave, then are gone. Poof. Tell me, who in their right mind comes HERE, of all places and screws with legitimate freedom fighting been there done that bad asses? That's crazy. You've seen it for a long long time. They come and crap in the house then get punished. It's still a good day.
Similar threads
