Weird accuracy question.

[Pathos]

So, this is weird and I hope someone here has some insight.

A friend is trying to get his hunting rifle to shoot. He is currently getting acceptable (for hunting, you guys will groan) groups @ 100 yds. Around an inch to inch and a half, with a variety of factory ammo. Different brands and bullet weights, etc. At 200 yds, he can't keep a group on paper (2x2 feet) with anything. Groups are 12 - 15 inches, with fliers off the page. He can shoot equivalent MOA groups at multiple ranges with other rifles, so its not the shooter.

I don't even know what search terms I'd use to find the answer to a question like this, so I'm putting it to the hide mind. Clues?

 

[Supersubes]

Send it back to the manufacturer.

 

[pabrousseau]

Twist rate?

 

[rhsc]

Same shooter at both distances? Does the rifle shoot 1 to 1-1/2 inch groups at 100 yards both before and after the 200 yard range session where he couldn't get it on paper?

 

[Pathos]

Can't send it back, it's an heirloom. Dad's old gun.

Twist rate 1:10, measured. 30-06 Bullet weights tested include 150-220 gr. 1:10 should be good for that range.

Same shooter at both distances. Shoots well at 100, then sprays at 200, then shoots well again at 100. He tried cool down periods, etc ...

It gets on paper. It just doesn't stay there. The center of the 200 yd pattern (can't call it a group) is approx center of paper, but a foot or two in diameter.

 

[silentheart]

1 try a rear bag?
2 check the scope mount?
Just throwing sheet and see what stick to the wall.

 

[jbell]

Any pattern to the 200 yard groups? Definitely the first step is to completely disassemble the rifle (optics and all) paying attention for loose fasteners or other issues. Then reassemble and shoot it again.

 

[xsn10s]

Try a different proven shooter. And don't change scope settings between shooting the two distances.

 

[Jrb572]

try a different scope if everything is tight. Has it been cleaned?

 

[spife7980]

Clean the shit out of it.

What brand and model of rifle?

What’s the twist rate and what bullet weights and models have been tried?

What scope?

 

[FisherT&C]

Is it an old 3x9 hunting scope? If everything is tight; probably a parallax issue. Turn the power down to 3 and shoot it. If it shoots better at 3; throw it away. Then get another scope.

 

[Pathos]

Using a rear bag. Scope and mount are tight. Would think that if loose, it would affect groups at all distances.

The pattern at 200 yrds is somewhere between cylinder and modified. More or less centered and random.

It's been well cleaned, and all screws checked for tightness. So far, one only proven shooter, but struggling to understand how those things would be 1.25 MOA @ 100, 25 MOA at 200 ...

It's a Savage 110, twist and bullets as described above..

He's tried hree different scopes: Bushnell, Burris, Nikon. All from rifles that don't exhibit any problems. I can see how parallax could affect group size, to a degree. But 20+ MOA @ 200?

It's just weird.

 

[Ernest 5.56]

Give this a shot

https://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/2022/10/how-to-inspect-your-barrel-crown-with-a-q-tip/

 

[swampbuck]

If the guns shoot 1.5 moa at 100 yards before and after the 200 yard attempt that could only be human error.
Tightening screws, cleaning and parallax are all good suggestions but none of them explain how a 1.5 moa gun opens up to 20 moa at 200 and then closes back up returning to 100 yards. That could only be a human error factor.

 

[swampbuck]

Are the bullets keyholing paper at 200?

 

[D1gger]

Wood stock or synthetic? I had a Ruger lightweight that would group 3 shots in a very nice group, then it would open WAY up. That pencil barrel would move and touch the stock. I relieved the channel, but it would still shift. For hunting, it was great. Not so much for extended range sessions

 

[acudaowner]

yea as stated a few times send it back something does not sound right about those group sizes well unless your friend is Ray Charles then he is doing really good .

 

[Hattrick]

Dads old 30-06 kicks like a mule. I’m thinking shooter error

 

[xsn10s]

Are the bullets keyholing paper at 200?

Dads old 30-06 kicks like a mule. I’m thinking shooter error

This is why i said to get another known/ proven shooter and test the rifles without changing scope settings between the distances. Either completely unstable bullets at distances beyond 100 yards or shooter error of some sort. It could be something else but I'd rule out those two things first because all you need is another shooter.

 

[moosemeat]

24" groups at 200 is only 12 MOA.

If you have tried differnt scopes and it still does it, and the bullets aren't keyholing, then my bet would be shooter. I have seen amazing shooters think rifles are junk because they can't handle recoil. My friend thought his 300wm had a bad barrel until I shot it and was getting 1/2 MOA at 300 with it. A 8 pound 30-06 with a old hard plastic but pad can be more than some are used to.

 

[Pathos]

Bullets are not keyholing.
Wood stock. Barrel floats.
Shooter is not known for being recoil sensitive, but I don't see how recoil would be greater when shooting at 200 vs 100 or anything leading to a 20 ~10 times greater MOA group at the farther distance.

 

[moosemeat]

Have you tried shooting it? You have answers for scope, stock and barrel issues. I believe you even tried differnt scopes.
Do the groups move at 100? Like inconsistent?
Have you witnessed this variable accuracy range dependent shooting?

 

[theLBC]

parallax? doesn't make sense for sure.

 

[Slides]

Parallax seems most likely if it's not keyholing and it's not from heat in barrel from repeated shots. Could still be crown damage or bore opens up near the muzzle.

 

[rhsc]

You wrote "only one proven shooter" Does that mean that only the owner of the rifle has shot it and reported this problem? If you haven't already, you need to get behind this rifle yourself and find out if it shoots the same for you as it does for him. He may have a vision problem that he's not aware of.

edit: Does he have this problem shooting any other rifle? Get him behind your rifle and see how he does.

 

[Naaman]

What about clamping the rifle down in a vice and see how it groups?

 

[xsn10s]

Having another know, proven shooter helps rule out an unknown variable induced by the original shooter. Then we can narrow down a rifle or ammo issue. Good luck.

 

[Haney]

Could try it at 125,150,175, and 200 yards .