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Night Vision Welcoming our newest child to the fold! (L3 CRATOS)

TheHorta

Nest-stirring pot-poker.
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Minuteman
  • Jan 17, 2014
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    NO AL
    Props to Doctor Double-D at DRT. Way to help a needy farmer out!

    Doc-D just delivered our latest baby girl and newest addition to our family — an L3 CRATOS Jack-of-all-trades thermal monocular / clip-on / dedicated weapon scope. This sweet little bambina — affectionately named “Peanut” — takes the genetic legacy of her Big Bro, the venerable LWTS (pictured below alongside his new sibling), and packs expanded capabilities, features and performance into an even more diminutive package — 60Hz, IR laser, true handheld monocular capability (the LWTS never was a real monocular), more nifty features (standard BH/WH/Outline modes PLUS Color!) and increased FOV with no practical loss of detection range!

    Improved handling and image quality (though still not quite up to Skeet standards), better usability and portability, runs on AA’s, etc. Also, the QD mount physically detaches from Peanut, so you can leave the mount on your rifle and pop if off if/when you want to use it as a handheld, eliminating the extra “bulk” of the mount while in your hand.

    It’s a seriously sweet piece of kit! Overall, of all thermals commercially available, only the SkeetIR-x is real competition for Peanut. If I had to choose between the two, the dual/helmet capability of the Skeet would win-out, but not by much. The CRATOS is stronger on the weapon-mounting / clip-on front whereas the Skeet is stronger on the helmet / monocular front. If you’re happy with your current headgear setup, then the CRATOS is the better unit. Fortunately, we don’t have to choose between our children. :giggle:

    I would STRONGLY encourage L3/ EOTech to waste no time bringing this to the consumer market — though Trijicon and N-Vision definitely do NOT want that to happen! If the intended retail pricing rumors are even close to being realistic, the CRATOS will ***OWN*** the thermal market in the $5-9K range. If the $8K +/- price being tossed around is possible then you should RUN(!!!), not walk, into the market with this product. In short, nothing else would sell until CRATOS availability dries up.

    Photos of my new girl, along with a partial family photo. More to come.

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    Welcome to the family, Peanut!

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    ETA: I ran Peanut over one eye and a Skeet over the other, swapping back and forth, and they’re both identical “unity” views and overlap nicely. The Skeet has about 5% wider FOV, maybe less, meaning they’re practically identical without actually being identical. The OLED display screen on the Skeet is definitely nicer. It’s more crisp and provides more detail. I’d say the VGA (non-OLED) display in Peanut is a little nicer than the LWTS, but not quite up to SkeetIRx quality. The difference is immediately noticeable without being egregiously different. Subjectively, I’d say Peanut’s display is about 80% as good as Skeet, give or take.

    Just like her older brother, LWTS (now named “Locutus”), she has an automatic internal NUC, which is a HUGE check mark in the PLUS column.

    The COLOR heat pallet is very useful and well done, but Peanut’s take on “Outline” mode is absolutely SPECTACULAR!!! I’ve never seen anything like it. It’s actually notable signatures highlighted by an outline but it’s still a grayscale White-Hot image. It’s outline over white hot and it works way better than any outline mode I’ve ever used — UTM, Skeet, PSQ20/36, ENVG... everything.

    ETA2: Comparing the two, I’d say Peanut and Locutus share the same sensor and display screen, or if not identical, then very similar. I’m mildly disappointed that L3 failed to provide an OLED display in the CRATOS. For what is currently an $18K optic, that seems like a no-brainer. I get the LWTS, as it was released much earlier, but it seems obvious that Peanut was largely intended to be Locutus’ replacement, regardless of her SOCOM heritage.

    Noticeable DNA was passed from Locutus to Peanut. The blatant omission of an OLED display is the only thing that keeps Peanut from winning the Gold Medal in the Uncooled Thermal Ironman Triathlon.
     
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    My first DISLIKE is the same one I have with the LWTS -- NO ocular / eyepiece adjustment. I have >20/20 PRK laser-corrected vision and both the LWTS and the CRATOS, when viewing directly through the eyepiece, are slightly soft -- like just a hair out-of-focus. When used as a clip-on, that disappears and the image is razor-sharp again. I wish they'd add a diopter (or make an accessory that can be attached), but it's a relatively minor complaint.
     
    Umm yeah. If it’s $8-9k it seems like it’s the best out there. All pricing I see seems to add $8-9k to that price though.

    There's scuttlebutt that there is a glut of CRATOS in inventory and that all .GOV contracts are filled with nothing more on the horizon -- likely ever for that particular product, since newer models have replaced it (just like the LWTS being end-of-life as well). The glut is substantial and they're seriously debating their release into the wild at a cut-rate price to purge inventory.

    Honestly, the Marines or some other branch should jump in and gobble-up the entire lot, while L3 is in a charitable mood on them. Unfortunately, Uncle Sugar don't dance to that beat.

    Again... scuttlebutt. We shall see.
     
    Had heard they were more for cqb and less for longer range?

    Good for 300-500 yards as a clip-on, maybe more if you wanted to push it. Then it has a great FOV for everything else. Personally, that covers everything I'd ever use one for, and likely 90% of the rest of us too.
     
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    What makes the stand alone CRATOS better than a UTM-X?.
     
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    What makes the stand alone CRATOS better than a UTM-X?.

    I am not sure but wasn't what made the CRATOS tits was that it could send wirless vid to the helmet mounted unit?

    It’s not better than a UTM-x. It’s functionally a better clip-on than the UTM, but the display image isn’t as good, since the UTMx is basically a SkeetX along those lines. A few of the features stand above the UTM, but if someone set them both in front of me and said “Choose.” 70/30 I’d choose the UTM.

    The big difference here is that the CRATOS stands a reasonable shot of becoming widely available at a realistic price, where that will never happen with the UTM.
     
    Took Peanut out last night in front of my Elcan-equipped LMT MRP. She was born to run in front of an ACOG or Elcan. Notice the absolute perfect alignment. There is zero light-leak with the provided soft polyurethane coupler. It’s a match made in heaven. :giggle:

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    The LWTS is something special. You say this is better than the LWTS as a general purpose/mid range clip on?
     
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    Very nice!!!

    Let me know if you need someone to baby sit any of the children or you could also just abandon them in a basket on my doorstep. I'll leave the porch light on.
     
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    TTL pics are a PITA, even with an iPhone 11 Pro. Frustrating. Big props to JW on that front! Lol.
     
    The LWTS is something special. You say this is better than the LWTS as a general purpose/mid range clip on?

    Imagine that it *IS* an LWTS — identical image quality and detection range with internal shutter — but adds 60Hz, epic Outline and COLOR detection modes, a variable-power IR laser, true monocular capability, vastly improved QD mounting, all in what feels like half the overall physical size.

    With the two (somewhat minor) exceptions of lacking both an improved OLED display and eyepiece diopter, the CRATOS is an epic performer.

    All that said, if I could have only one — the CRATOS or the SkeetIRx — I would choose the Skeet. It’s smaller, easily helmet-mountable, can be used as a clip-on or dedicated weapon mount, also has an IR laser, and clearly has a more appealing display.

    That said, if you’re looking primarily for a clip-on or TWS, the CRATOS is more suited to that job than the Skeet.
     
    I’ve spent some time looking through both the LWTS over one eye and the CRATOS over the other. The CRATOS screen — whether because it’s closer or because it’s actually larger — appears much larger to the eye. It’s definitely an improved display, but it is still VGA and not OLED.

    As a monocular, Peanut *crushes* Locutus.

    As a clip-on, Peanut *crushes* Locutus.

    As a dedicated TWS, Peanut *crushes* Locutus.

    On capabilities and features, Peanut *crushes* Locutus.

    Peanut *crushes* Locutus.

    End transmission. . . .
     
    Don’t you be talking about my baby like that

    LWTS holds up well. I’ve had a couple for 4-5 years now and until the last year or so it has been my go-to night scope of choice. It’s bomb-proof, still performs nearly as well as anything else out there, and is versatile.

    The LWTS is a T-800. CRATOS is a T-1000.

    It’s science bro.
     
    Good for 300-500 yards as a clip-on, maybe more if you wanted to push it. Then it has a great FOV for everything else. Personally, that covers everything I'd ever use one for, and likely 90% of the rest of us too.

    I disagree.

    If the "blob"was big enough you could likely throw a bullet at it but you will not be able to ID what you are looking at at those ranges.

    4x is about absolute max you can run your glass up to behind one and even then they are rough.

    They are very good at doing what they are made to do.

    If you want to own the neighborhood or the close in property around your place, this unit is the shit. IMO, they suck at Medium to long range on anything smaller than a car though.


    ./
     
    I disagree.

    If the "blob"was big enough you could likely throw a bullet at it but you will not be able to ID what you are looking at at those ranges.

    4x is about absolute max you can run your glass up to behind one and even then they are rough.

    They are very good at doing what they are made to do.

    If you want to own the neighborhood or the close in property around your place, this unit is the shit. IMO, they suck at Medium to long range on anything smaller than a car though../

    I’d say that’s pretty much true. It’s basically an LWTS replacement. If you can hit it with an LWTS, you can hit it with a CRATOS.
     
    So... I did some more testing with a focus on detection range for various critters. On my farm we have it all — cattle, hogs, sheep/lambs, goats/kids, turkeys, chickens, ducks, dogs and cats.

    Obviously, Peanut is *NOT* a long-range monster, by any stretch. I can detect dogs at 300+ yards, but like Terry said, you don’t know what it really is without knowing what it is. You could probably score a hit, but you’d be shooting at an undefined blob.

    I can detect cows quite well at 500 yards. I can “detect” my wife at the same distance, but I don’t know she’s a human until inside 300 yards.

    I can see cats as small blobs at 200 yards.

    I wouldn’t take a shot at an average coyote beyond 200 yards for fear it could be a dog. Inside 150 yards, no problem.

    For me, I’ve never taken a shot beyond 200 yards with any thermal, simply because I’ve never needed to in my “AO”, so the CRATOS is just about perfect for my usage pattern.
     
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    I can detect cows quite well at 500 yards. I can “detect” my wife at the same distance, but I don’t know she’s a human until inside 300 yards.

    I sure hope Miss Horta does not read this site. The choice of detecting cows and detecting wife in the same sentence maybe isn't the best choice of syntax.

    Could likely be one of those moments when you reflect that those men in dark suits weren't really that bad to deal with after all. :LOL:
     
    All this chit-chat, not one single through the lens image. So disappointing. :devilish:

    I’ve been trying. My iPhone 11+ Max Superfly isn’t cooperating with me, so @jwramp has graciously agreed to employ his mad photographic skillz in exchange for me sending him a bunch of cool toys to use them with.

    Here’s what I’ve been able to do:
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    JW is the man when it comes to great through the lens pics such as to greatly aid in evaluation of different devices.

    We are lucky to have him around and that he is willing to devote his time and efforts.

    Wig, is another one that contributes greatly to those type efforts. Kudos to him as well.

    And thanks Horta for doing your part to get the pics done. Much appreciated.
     
    JW is the man when it comes to great through the lens pics such as to greatly aid in evaluation of different devices.

    We are lucky to have him around and that he is willing to devote his time and efforts.

    Wig, is another one that contributes greatly to those type efforts. Kudos to him as well.

    And thanks Horta for doing your part to get the pics done. Much appreciated.
    You....plus the members you just mentioned and quite a few more have been most helpful in giving great advice on a variety of gear. Please keep it going....and thanks!
     
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    All this chit-chat, not one single through the lens image. So disappointing. :devilish:

    These suck but this is all I have that I am allowed to share. It has on board still image capture but these were taken with an older Samsung phone held up to the back of the unit or the scope.

    Will try to get a little more variety of generic views taken in a few days if others don't post something up.

    Stand Alone Mode - Range to base of Stop Sign is roughly 60 yds .

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    Clip-On Mode in front of ATACR 1-8 @ approx 4X.
    Same object and distance
    * Image much more tolerable at 2-3X. Excellent at 1-2X and working inside 150. Excellent FOV and resolution with decent FOF running from 5 to 75yds.
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    another Clip-On Mode in front of ATACR 1-8
    Range is 245 yards to stair well.
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    @TheHorta what's the story on that objective cap on Peanut? Came with?

    I thought so originally, but DiRTy Dan told me he bought it aftermarket. At first, when I thought it was OEM, I assumed it was the number "3" for L3. Then, I realized it's an "M" -- for "Monstrum".

    Yeah... Peanut is sporting a Monstrum flip-cap. She doesn't want to appear pretentious, so she shops at Walmart for her outfits. :giggle:
     
    I thought so originally, but DiRTy Dan told me he bought it aftermarket. At first, when I thought it was OEM, I assumed it was the number "3" for L3. Then, I realized it's an "M" -- for "Monstrum".

    Yeah... Peanut is sporting a Monstrum flip-cap.

    Does it fit tight enough to readily grip and turn the objective front focus ring when you need to?


    ./
     
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    Does it fit tight enough to readily grip and turn the objective front focus ring when you need to?

    ./

    It does. It fits so well I just assumed it was made for the CRATOS. It also flips nearly all the way back, almost flush against the optic. Give me a minute and I’ll edit this post with a pic of the removed Monstrum cover with a ruler.

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    It does. It fits so well I just assumed it was made for the CRATOS. It also flips nearly all the way back, almost flush against the optic. Give me a minute and I’ll edit this post with a pic of the removed Monstrum cover with a ruler.

    Thanks for the clarification. The Monstrum looks more sturdy than a made in China Butler Creek.
    Just curious, did your CRATOS not come with the bungee strapped front cover or you just elected to take it off?


    ./
     
    Thanks for the clarification. The Monstrum looks more sturdy than a made in China Butler Creek.
    Just curious, did your CRATOS not come with the bungee strapped front cover or you just elected to take it off?

    ./

    It has the bikini/bungee. I’m afraid I’d snap it off. The Monstrum flip-cap is MUCH more robust than the Butler Creek crap. It’s very close in quality to the Vortex Defender caps that I really like. The problem with the Defenders is, as far as I know, they only come in black. The FDE Monstrum feels just about as good but the color matches perfectly with Peanut’s ensemble.

    She can wear cheap outfits, but she draws the line at clashing.:p
     
    One more thing... why on EARTH did L3 not put the Laser Fire button on the rail switch?!?!

    WTH?!
     
    It has the bikini/bungee. I’m afraid I’d snap it off. The Monstrum flip-cap is MUCH more robust than the Butler Creek crap. It’s very close in quality to the Vortex Defender caps that I really like. The problem with the Defenders is, as far as I know, they only come in black. The FDE Monstrum feels just about as good but the color matches perfectly with Peanut’s ensemble.

    She can wear cheap outfits, but she draws the line at clashing.:p

    Cool beans. Looks like a sound alternative.
    We have had good luck so far with the factory caps and bungees.

    Carry on smartly.


    ./
     
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    Anyone know where to score the part #7 “interface hood” item CTO-467-02? Shown on page 1 beautifully providing an emission-free soft coupling between Horta’s CRATOS and Elcan...
     
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    Anyone know where to score the part #7 “interface hood” item CTO-467-02? Shown on page 1 beautifully providing an emission-free soft coupling between Horta’s CRATOS and Elcan...

    You should be able to go straight to Harris / L3 for remotes, hoods, caps, etc.
    I was able to go that route twice for broke shit but last time was over a year ago.

    ./
     
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