What .40 S&W round does LE Officers use?
Would they also be good self-defense rounds.
Also what would be a good 9mm self-defense round?
Would they also be good self-defense rounds.
Also what would be a good 9mm self-defense round?
Sidearms & Scatterguns What .40 S&W round does LE Officers use?
- Thread starter Don-n-Texas
- Start date
Re: What .40 S&W round does LE Officers use?
It varies by law enforcement agency. They generally use a high quality self defense round like Federal Hydrashocks or Winchester Ranger. Many people call the local law enforcement agency and ask them what they use. Many people like to carry the same ammo as the local law enforcement in their concealed carry handguns.
It varies by law enforcement agency. They generally use a high quality self defense round like Federal Hydrashocks or Winchester Ranger. Many people call the local law enforcement agency and ask them what they use. Many people like to carry the same ammo as the local law enforcement in their concealed carry handguns.
Re: What .40 S&W round does LE Officers use?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Don-n-Texas</div><div class="ubbcode-body">What .40 S&W round does LE Officers use?
Would they also be good self-defense rounds.
Also what would be a good 9mm self-defense round? </div></div> <span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="text-decoration: underline">Winchester Ranger T-series</span></span>. We use 180gr on the 40S&W and 9mm 124gr.+P or the+P+
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Don-n-Texas</div><div class="ubbcode-body">What .40 S&W round does LE Officers use?
Would they also be good self-defense rounds.
Also what would be a good 9mm self-defense round? </div></div> <span style="font-weight: bold"><span style="text-decoration: underline">Winchester Ranger T-series</span></span>. We use 180gr on the 40S&W and 9mm 124gr.+P or the+P+
Re: What .40 S&W round does LE Officers use?
The Federal HST would be my top pick for off duty/concealed carry use. We issue the Federal Tactical bonded 165gr for duty use.
The Federal HST would be my top pick for off duty/concealed carry use. We issue the Federal Tactical bonded 165gr for duty use.
Re: What .40 S&W round does LE Officers use?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mordamer</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Many people call the local law enforcement agency and ask them what they use. Many people like to carry the same ammo as the local law enforcement in their concealed carry handguns. </div></div>
Why is this?
Anyway, to answer the OPs question. Federal Hydrashoks for some of our neighboring agencies.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mordamer</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Many people call the local law enforcement agency and ask them what they use. Many people like to carry the same ammo as the local law enforcement in their concealed carry handguns. </div></div>
Why is this?
Anyway, to answer the OPs question. Federal Hydrashoks for some of our neighboring agencies.
Re: What .40 S&W round does LE Officers use?
The best 2 for reliable expansion for 40s&w or 9mm are Federal HST and Winchester Ranger SXT. The Federal HST has been slightly better in my experience, and it retains a good amount of weight. Both of these you will have to order online, as they are usually not stocked on shelves. They are cheaper than what you can get on the shelves though, as you get 50 for the price of 20. Here is my review on Federal HST 9mm 124 grain +p http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthre...901#Post2895901
The best 2 for reliable expansion for 40s&w or 9mm are Federal HST and Winchester Ranger SXT. The Federal HST has been slightly better in my experience, and it retains a good amount of weight. Both of these you will have to order online, as they are usually not stocked on shelves. They are cheaper than what you can get on the shelves though, as you get 50 for the price of 20. Here is my review on Federal HST 9mm 124 grain +p http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthre...901#Post2895901
Re: What .40 S&W round does LE Officers use?
As stated above, different departments supply different ammo, or supply a list of acceptable ammo. A department just north of me supplies Ranger-T for duty, whereas my city has a list. Personally, I use Ranger-T.
PM sent with more info.
Kevin
As stated above, different departments supply different ammo, or supply a list of acceptable ammo. A department just north of me supplies Ranger-T for duty, whereas my city has a list. Personally, I use Ranger-T.
PM sent with more info.
Kevin
Re: What .40 S&W round does LE Officers use?
At the SO I carried Federal Hydroshocks in a 96FS. At SPD & BCPD I carried WW Silver Tips in a S&W 686 & 681. Dont remember what I carried in my Glock at SPD but it was issued hollow points.
Here at home I have Speer Gold Dot in a 9mm, Federal Hydroshock and Hornaday XTP in that same 40 and Fiocchi 230 grain JHP in my 45's.
For personal protection in the home or out I'd be thinking along the lines of trying to minimize over penetration with my firearm and ammo choices, knowing my back stop or whats behind my intended target and retention of my sidearm.
Hollow points are designed to expand rapidly due to bodily fluids being forced into the cavity of said projectile. Shot placement and quality ammo are the keys. Dead is dead and I've seen em DRT (dead right there) from .22 shorts to a 30-06. Dont get too wrapped up in a name brand or what your favorite LEO is carrying. I never saw or heard of anyone complaining about being shot with brand X over brand Y
Winchester Ranger and Remington Golden Saber be some bad stuff......for the bad guy that is.
At the SO I carried Federal Hydroshocks in a 96FS. At SPD & BCPD I carried WW Silver Tips in a S&W 686 & 681. Dont remember what I carried in my Glock at SPD but it was issued hollow points.
Here at home I have Speer Gold Dot in a 9mm, Federal Hydroshock and Hornaday XTP in that same 40 and Fiocchi 230 grain JHP in my 45's.
For personal protection in the home or out I'd be thinking along the lines of trying to minimize over penetration with my firearm and ammo choices, knowing my back stop or whats behind my intended target and retention of my sidearm.
Hollow points are designed to expand rapidly due to bodily fluids being forced into the cavity of said projectile. Shot placement and quality ammo are the keys. Dead is dead and I've seen em DRT (dead right there) from .22 shorts to a 30-06. Dont get too wrapped up in a name brand or what your favorite LEO is carrying. I never saw or heard of anyone complaining about being shot with brand X over brand Y
Winchester Ranger and Remington Golden Saber be some bad stuff......for the bad guy that is.
Re: What .40 S&W round does LE Officers use?
Thank you everyone for your time and your expertize.
Thank you everyone for your time and your expertize.
Re: What .40 S&W round does LE Officers use?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: turbo54</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The Ranger SXT is a great cartridge. My understanding is they are the "Same Xact Thing" as the black talon - just not black. </div></div>
Incorrect. They are the latest in a design idea that produced the black talon, but it is not the exact same bullet, just not black.
The black talon is 20 years old- if they haven't further developed it in 20 years, their r&d sucks
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: turbo54</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The Ranger SXT is a great cartridge. My understanding is they are the "Same Xact Thing" as the black talon - just not black. </div></div>
Incorrect. They are the latest in a design idea that produced the black talon, but it is not the exact same bullet, just not black.
The black talon is 20 years old- if they haven't further developed it in 20 years, their r&d sucks
Re: What .40 S&W round does LE Officers use?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Slapchop</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mordamer</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Many people call the local law enforcement agency and ask them what they use. Many people like to carry the same ammo as the local law enforcement in their concealed carry handguns. </div></div>
Why is this?
Anyway, to answer the OPs question. Federal Hydrashoks for some of our neighboring agencies. </div></div>
The reasoning behind calling the local law enforcement agency is that in the chance you do have to use your weapon in self defense, the prosecutor can't go accuse you of using some crazy over powered killing machine bullet.
Basically if its good enough for the cops, its good enough for me argument.
I carry my G23 with Ranger-T 180gr
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Slapchop</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mordamer</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Many people call the local law enforcement agency and ask them what they use. Many people like to carry the same ammo as the local law enforcement in their concealed carry handguns. </div></div>
Why is this?
Anyway, to answer the OPs question. Federal Hydrashoks for some of our neighboring agencies. </div></div>
The reasoning behind calling the local law enforcement agency is that in the chance you do have to use your weapon in self defense, the prosecutor can't go accuse you of using some crazy over powered killing machine bullet.
Basically if its good enough for the cops, its good enough for me argument.
I carry my G23 with Ranger-T 180gr
Re: What .40 S&W round does LE Officers use?
Speer 165 GoldDot in S&W M&P
Speer 165 GoldDot in S&W M&P
Re: What .40 S&W round does LE Officers use?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mordamer</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Many people call the local law enforcement agency and ask them what they use. Many people like to carry the same ammo as the local law enforcement in their concealed carry handguns. </div></div>
A buddy of mine dropped an email to our local agency inquiring what their carry ammo was. The next day he received a visit from a LEO trying to figure out why he wanted to know. The LEO was cool about it, but we were both a little taken aback by the situation especially since he only gave his name and number in the email.
I guess that's the suburbs for ya.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mordamer</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Many people call the local law enforcement agency and ask them what they use. Many people like to carry the same ammo as the local law enforcement in their concealed carry handguns. </div></div>
A buddy of mine dropped an email to our local agency inquiring what their carry ammo was. The next day he received a visit from a LEO trying to figure out why he wanted to know. The LEO was cool about it, but we were both a little taken aback by the situation especially since he only gave his name and number in the email.
I guess that's the suburbs for ya.
Re: What .40 S&W round does LE Officers use?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DPRoberts</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mordamer</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Many people call the local law enforcement agency and ask them what they use. Many people like to carry the same ammo as the local law enforcement in their concealed carry handguns. </div></div>
A buddy of mine dropped an email to our local agency inquiring what their carry ammo was. The next day he received a visit from a LEO trying to figure out why he wanted to know. The LEO was cool about it, but we were both a little taken aback by the situation especially since he only gave his name and number in the email.
I guess that's the suburbs for ya. </div></div>
I would be very un-cool about that...
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DPRoberts</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mordamer</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Many people call the local law enforcement agency and ask them what they use. Many people like to carry the same ammo as the local law enforcement in their concealed carry handguns. </div></div>
A buddy of mine dropped an email to our local agency inquiring what their carry ammo was. The next day he received a visit from a LEO trying to figure out why he wanted to know. The LEO was cool about it, but we were both a little taken aback by the situation especially since he only gave his name and number in the email.
I guess that's the suburbs for ya. </div></div>
I would be very un-cool about that...
Re: What .40 S&W round does LE Officers use?
125gr Speer Gold Dots in my Glock 32
125gr Speer Gold Dots in my Glock 32
Re: What .40 S&W round does LE Officers use?
We use Winchester Ranger HP here.
We use Winchester Ranger HP here.
Re: What .40 S&W round does LE Officers use?
I never really cared what LE uses. Even when I was in LE I didn't care nor followed the pack.
When I first hired on they were issuing 158 LRN cast and loaded by trustees. I said NO Thanks, The gave me a Model 28 Smith and I cast and loaded 150 grn SWC 357s. (Lyman mold 358477).
Even later when the department went to 125 grn Winchester HPs I stuck with my reloads. I wanted something that fit me and my gun, not what the crowd used.
I found my loads more accurate and worked better. I worked in Anchorage, we had a lot of moose vehicle accidents where the moose had to be put down. LSWCs worked best in my opinion and I've shoot a lot of moose in 20 years with my Model 28.
I know the OP was talking about 40 cal, they didn't have that when I was in LE, but the principal is the same.
Forget what the cops use, shoot what works for you and your gun.
I never really cared what LE uses. Even when I was in LE I didn't care nor followed the pack.
When I first hired on they were issuing 158 LRN cast and loaded by trustees. I said NO Thanks, The gave me a Model 28 Smith and I cast and loaded 150 grn SWC 357s. (Lyman mold 358477).
Even later when the department went to 125 grn Winchester HPs I stuck with my reloads. I wanted something that fit me and my gun, not what the crowd used.
I found my loads more accurate and worked better. I worked in Anchorage, we had a lot of moose vehicle accidents where the moose had to be put down. LSWCs worked best in my opinion and I've shoot a lot of moose in 20 years with my Model 28.
I know the OP was talking about 40 cal, they didn't have that when I was in LE, but the principal is the same.
Forget what the cops use, shoot what works for you and your gun.
Re: What .40 S&W round does LE Officers use?
Out here DOJ uses Remington high performance golden saber hp
Out here DOJ uses Remington high performance golden saber hp
Re: What .40 S&W round does LE Officers use?
these are standard issue with local, state and feds where i hang out.
http://le.atk.com/general/federalproducts/pistol/tacticalhst.aspx
DHS just bought few:
http://articles.businessinsider.com/2012-03-28/news/31247765_1_atk-rounds-bullet
these are standard issue with local, state and feds where i hang out.
http://le.atk.com/general/federalproducts/pistol/tacticalhst.aspx
DHS just bought few:
http://articles.businessinsider.com/2012-03-28/news/31247765_1_atk-rounds-bullet
Re: What .40 S&W round does LE Officers use?
My dept (Largo PD) uses Speer Gold Dot 155gr
My dept (Largo PD) uses Speer Gold Dot 155gr
Re: What .40 S&W round does LE Officers use?
Federal Tactical HST. I think Federal is starting to move away from the Hydrashocks. I heard they are only manufacturing Hydrashocks during certain periods of the year. This is what I was told by a distributor here in Indiana. Who knows maybe they were just pushing the HST's. Can't go wrong with either.
Federal Tactical HST. I think Federal is starting to move away from the Hydrashocks. I heard they are only manufacturing Hydrashocks during certain periods of the year. This is what I was told by a distributor here in Indiana. Who knows maybe they were just pushing the HST's. Can't go wrong with either.
Re: What .40 S&W round does LE Officers use?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DP425</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: turbo54</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The Ranger SXT is a great cartridge. My understanding is they are the "Same Xact Thing" as the black talon - just not black. </div></div>
Incorrect. They are the latest in a design idea that produced the black talon, but it is not the exact same bullet, just not black.
The black talon is 20 years old- if they haven't further developed it in 20 years, their r&d sucks </div></div>
Thanks for the correction! Goes to show the gunstore jockeys often don't know WTF they're talking about.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: DP425</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: turbo54</div><div class="ubbcode-body">The Ranger SXT is a great cartridge. My understanding is they are the "Same Xact Thing" as the black talon - just not black. </div></div>
Incorrect. They are the latest in a design idea that produced the black talon, but it is not the exact same bullet, just not black.
The black talon is 20 years old- if they haven't further developed it in 20 years, their r&d sucks </div></div>
Thanks for the correction! Goes to show the gunstore jockeys often don't know WTF they're talking about.
Re: What .40 S&W round does LE Officers use?
40 cal 165 grain Speer gold dot
40 cal 165 grain Speer gold dot
Re: What .40 S&W round does LE Officers use?
Winchester Ranger here. I also got a box for my off-duty carry guns. Never know, and they run reliably in my guns. (glock 22 and kimber ultra-carry in 40 s&w)
Winchester Ranger here. I also got a box for my off-duty carry guns. Never know, and they run reliably in my guns. (glock 22 and kimber ultra-carry in 40 s&w)
Re: What .40 S&W round does LE Officers use?
The most common ones you will find (close to this order):
Winchester Rangers
Remington Golden Saber (now in a bonded form)
Speer
Federal HST
Winchester Silvertips
Some are running CorBon, if they want to be spendy.
To be honest, any premium grade JHP is going to do you good. I keep a couple hundred "just in case" rounds of each caliber of all those brands. My carry is loaded with Rangers, its what I was issued.
There is a lot of contraversy in regards to reloads. I am sure a handload is much better, accurate, and just as lethal. I would stockpile reloads for practice, or the fall of society, when I know it wont matter what bullet is used. But in these times with DA's using as many petty excuses to win a case, I will stick with factory loaded stuff. It will make "defensive" holes in a person just as easy, and one less issue to deal with afterwards in court.
The most common ones you will find (close to this order):
Winchester Rangers
Remington Golden Saber (now in a bonded form)
Speer
Federal HST
Winchester Silvertips
Some are running CorBon, if they want to be spendy.
To be honest, any premium grade JHP is going to do you good. I keep a couple hundred "just in case" rounds of each caliber of all those brands. My carry is loaded with Rangers, its what I was issued.
There is a lot of contraversy in regards to reloads. I am sure a handload is much better, accurate, and just as lethal. I would stockpile reloads for practice, or the fall of society, when I know it wont matter what bullet is used. But in these times with DA's using as many petty excuses to win a case, I will stick with factory loaded stuff. It will make "defensive" holes in a person just as easy, and one less issue to deal with afterwards in court.
Re: What .40 S&W round does LE Officers use?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dennis W</div><div class="ubbcode-body">40 cal 165 grain Speer gold dot </div></div>
^^ thats what we use
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Dennis W</div><div class="ubbcode-body">40 cal 165 grain Speer gold dot </div></div>
^^ thats what we use
Re: What .40 S&W round does LE Officers use?
Winchester Ranger 165 Grain.
Winchester Ranger 165 Grain.
Re: What .40 S&W round does LE Officers use?
Gold Dots
Gold Dots
Re: What .40 S&W round does LE Officers use?
Federal 155 jacketed hollow point
Federal 155 jacketed hollow point
Re: What .40 S&W round does LE Officers use?
Golden Sabers, 165gr, standard P
Golden Sabers, 165gr, standard P
Re: What .40 S&W round does LE Officers use?
Fort Worth PD uses 180 grain Speer Gold Dot.
Fort Worth PD uses 180 grain Speer Gold Dot.
Re: What .40 S&W round does LE Officers use?
DEA used 165gr Hydrashok
Now we are using Speer 165 gr Gold Dot
I have seen Winchester 180 gr STX but I think it was withdrawn due to some functioning issues in the Glocks
We use Gold Sabre in .45 ACP
Speer Gold dot in 9mm
147 Fed Hydrashok P+P in .38 Spc
DEA used 165gr Hydrashok
Now we are using Speer 165 gr Gold Dot
I have seen Winchester 180 gr STX but I think it was withdrawn due to some functioning issues in the Glocks
We use Gold Sabre in .45 ACP
Speer Gold dot in 9mm
147 Fed Hydrashok P+P in .38 Spc
Re: What .40 S&W round does LE Officers use?
Federal 165 gr HST is a all around best performer.
With that being said you really can't go wrong with any of them from the major manufactures.
It is and always be about placement
Federal 165 gr HST is a all around best performer.
With that being said you really can't go wrong with any of them from the major manufactures.
It is and always be about placement
Re: What .40 S&W round does LE Officers use?
I've sold it all to different departments. Some stick with Hydra-Shok, most are happy with HST, some want Golden Sabre's, others will only consider Gold Dots, others still won't touch anything but Ranger T's.
It's all bullshit.
None are magic, most will do what you need.
Everyone has a pet round they like... but it all mean very little in the end. They all work when your shot placement is sufficient, none work when it isn't.
HST, Gold Dots, Ranger T's... I'd buy what's on sale, what you can find in steady supply, and what runs well in your gun. For me that's 9mm 147gr HST. It used to be 124gr Gold Dots. I won't carry CorBon, Hornady TAP, or HydraShok, but most of the rest are all just fine.
Shoot your own preferred round in quantity, and at night to make sure the flash isn't overwhelming from your own carry gun, and then stop worrying about what's "best".
I've sold it all to different departments. Some stick with Hydra-Shok, most are happy with HST, some want Golden Sabre's, others will only consider Gold Dots, others still won't touch anything but Ranger T's.
It's all bullshit.
None are magic, most will do what you need.
Everyone has a pet round they like... but it all mean very little in the end. They all work when your shot placement is sufficient, none work when it isn't.
HST, Gold Dots, Ranger T's... I'd buy what's on sale, what you can find in steady supply, and what runs well in your gun. For me that's 9mm 147gr HST. It used to be 124gr Gold Dots. I won't carry CorBon, Hornady TAP, or HydraShok, but most of the rest are all just fine.
Shoot your own preferred round in quantity, and at night to make sure the flash isn't overwhelming from your own carry gun, and then stop worrying about what's "best".
Re: What .40 S&W round does LE Officers use?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Slapchop</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mordamer</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Many people call the local law enforcement agency and ask them what they use. Many people like to carry the same ammo as the local law enforcement in their concealed carry handguns. </div></div>
Why is this?
Anyway, to answer the OPs question. Federal Hydrashoks for some of our neighboring agencies. </div></div>
I believe people often call their local department because they hope it will help them be more dependable in court. Its hard for a DA to paint you as loading super "Man killer" "exploding" bullets obviously just lookin to smoke a fool when you use the exact same ammo the police department issues. I believe Massad Ayoob mentioned talking to the local LE in one of his articles.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Slapchop</div><div class="ubbcode-body"><div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Mordamer</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> Many people call the local law enforcement agency and ask them what they use. Many people like to carry the same ammo as the local law enforcement in their concealed carry handguns. </div></div>
Why is this?
Anyway, to answer the OPs question. Federal Hydrashoks for some of our neighboring agencies. </div></div>
I believe people often call their local department because they hope it will help them be more dependable in court. Its hard for a DA to paint you as loading super "Man killer" "exploding" bullets obviously just lookin to smoke a fool when you use the exact same ammo the police department issues. I believe Massad Ayoob mentioned talking to the local LE in one of his articles.
Re: What .40 S&W round does LE Officers use?
Rangers. The only reason is it's the lowest $/1000 rounds we get at any one time. Duty .40s are all about price.
Cheers,
Sirhr
Rangers. The only reason is it's the lowest $/1000 rounds we get at any one time. Duty .40s are all about price.
Cheers,
Sirhr
Re: What .40 S&W round does LE Officers use?
Winchester Ranger SXT here
Winchester Ranger SXT here
Re: What .40 S&W round does LE Officers use?
Smart thread, just sayin
Smart thread, just sayin
Re: What .40 S&W round does LE Officers use?
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: robbf213</div><div class="ubbcode-body">We use Speer Gold Dot 180 grain in a Glock 22. </div></div>
My brother is in law enforcement and I am US Mil, we both shoot that out of our personal glocks. Its good to go. Really though, just find something you like and use it, a bullet is a bullet, in my opinion.
<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: robbf213</div><div class="ubbcode-body">We use Speer Gold Dot 180 grain in a Glock 22. </div></div>
My brother is in law enforcement and I am US Mil, we both shoot that out of our personal glocks. Its good to go. Really though, just find something you like and use it, a bullet is a bullet, in my opinion.
Re: What .40 S&W round does LE Officers use?
All my agency uses is speer gold dot, as many others have also stated
All my agency uses is speer gold dot, as many others have also stated
