What am I doing wrong with this Lee Factory Crimp Die?

[TacticalBoltKnob]

I've had this Lee Factory Crimp Die for .308 sitting around, and I thought I would experiment with it. I have some rounds loaded up and I thought I would put a light crimp on about 10-15 of them to see if this affect velocity or accuracy.

Problem is, the die isn't crimping anything. I screw the die down until it touches the shell holder, then another half turn, per the instructions. But when I run a round up through the die, nothing happens. No crimp and no marks whatsoever on the top of the case neck. I tried turning the die down another half a turn and still nothing. I don't know how that would do anything anyway, since the bottom of the die contacts the shell holder, so the only thing that screwing the die down further would do is prevent you from raising your press ram up further. And yes, I am applying the necessary 25 lbs of pressure.

Any ideas on what I am doing wrong? Or do I have a bad die?

 

[KUSA]

Trust me on this. It is putting a crimp on it. It squeezes the neck down. Look through the top of the die. If you see all the segments touching when you put the case up in it then that means you are getting a full crimp. Don't go further than that or you will push your case in. It doesn't feel like you are doing anything but you actually are.

 

[TacticalBoltKnob]

Trust me on this. It is putting a crimp on it. It squeezes the neck down. Look through the top of the die. If you see all the segments touching when you put the case up in it then that means you are getting a full crimp. Don't go further than that or you will push your case in. It doesn't feel like you are doing anything but you actually are.

That's the thing, the segments are not closing on the neck at all when I look through the top.

 

[EXTREMEPREJUDICE]

Size an empty case and then run the sized case through the crimp die. Then manually attempt to seat a bullet......................seats with little or no resistance..........no crimp...........difficult, then it's working.

 

[KUSA]

Turn the die in until the segments close up. That will give you a full crimp. Back it off as needed for less of a crimp.

 

[former naval person]

Also check the collet to make sure you have the right insert. I have seen mis-packaging.

 

[TacticalBoltKnob]

Turn the die in until the segments close up. That will give you a full crimp. Back it off as needed for less of a crimp.

Turning the die in does nothing, as it is already contacting the shell holder. So turning the die in more only makes it so you are prevented from raising the press higher.

 

[TacticalBoltKnob]

Size an empty case and then run the sized case through the crimp die. Then manually attempt to seat a bullet......................seats with little or no resistance..........no crimp...........difficult, then it's working.

Thanks. I will try this.

Edit: Just tried this and seating a bullet after crimping the case felt about the same.

I just don't think this die is doing much.

 

[KUSA]

Turning the die in does nothing, as it is already contacting the shell holder. So turning the die in more only makes it so you are prevented from raising the press higher.

Pull your handle down all the way. Run the die in until it touches the shell holder. Then turn the die in until the segments close. That is how it works.

 

[TacticalBoltKnob]

Pull your handle down all the way. Run the die in until it touches the shell holder. Then turn the die in until the segments close. That is how it works.

That's what I am doing.

 

[KUSA]

I'm not sure what else to say without seeing it. If you are doing it like I said the segments should close up.

 

[TacticalBoltKnob]

I don't see how screwing the die further down into the press will make the crimping blades close.

And like I said before, it doesn't matter how far you screw the die into the press, because the shell holder touches the bottom of the die, hence the loaded cartridge is being inserted into the die the same amount no matter how far the die is screwed into the press. This simply makes no sense to me.

 

[TacticalBoltKnob]

Well, maybe it is doing something and I just can't see it.

But I have seen pics of crimped rounds using this die and you can definitely see it.

 

[pinsandpitons]

Also, the die is only for bullets with a canelure. You can use it on bullets without, but you'll be attempting to deform the bullet. When I had the same die, I was able to measure a .001-.002 change in diameter right at the case-mouth after crimping. Also, I could see very small "nicks" where the collet "quarters" would close together. If you're not seeing those two signs, and if you cant see the quarters closing on raising the press ram, it's entirely possible that that particular die fell through CQ. Pictures?

ETA: The die works (ie the segments close) because the inside of the outer die body is tapered, and when you force the inner die body (the part that is segmented) into it with the round in the middle, the segments are forced by the taper and the upward ram motion to crimp the case-mouth. SO..... screwing the die farther in, will make that happen lower, and lower in the ram stroke. CAUTION; if you screw the die in too far, you can damage the die due to REALLY forcing the inner part. Make sense?

 

[TacticalBoltKnob]

Also, the die is only for bullets with a canelure. You can use it on bullets without, but you'll be attempting to deform the bullet. When I had the same die, I was able to measure a .001-.002 change in diameter right at the case-mouth after crimping. Also, I could see very small "nicks" where the collet "quarters" would close together. If you're not seeing those two signs, and if you cant see the quarters closing on raising the press ram, it's entirely possible that that particular die fell through CQ. Pictures?

ETA: The die works (ie the segments close) because the inside of the outer die body is tapered, and when you force the inner die body (the part that is segmented) into it with the round in the middle, the segments are forced by the taper and the upward ram motion to crimp the case-mouth. SO..... screwing the die farther in, will make that happen lower, and lower in the ram stroke. CAUTION; if you screw the die in too far, you can damage the die due to REALLY forcing the inner part. Make sense?

Yes, I understand that. But no matter how much I screw in the die, nothing changes.

 

[RyeDaddy]

Ok, forgive me: Do you have it in the press upside down? Don 't see how that could be and you not know it, but it's a weird world.

So, yours is in the press like this:

And if you run the ram all the way up, and the shell holder contacts the inner sleeve then you run it in some more: Do you see the collet fingers close up and come together when looking down through the top of the die with no cartridge in it?

Looking down from above into the top of the crimp die:

Ram down, collet open

Ram up, collet closed

If not, something is wrong and you should call Lee Reloading. If all the above is correct and it does not crimp your case mouth, something is wrong and you should call Lee Reloading.

 

[pinsandpitons]

At this point, pictures we need.

 

[TacticalBoltKnob]

At this point, pictures we need.

Pictures of what, a crimp die?

 

[KUSA]

Also, the die is only for bullets with a canelure.

This is incorrect.

 

[RyeDaddy]

Agreed, the part about only for cannelured bullets is bullshit. You can damage uncannelured bullets if you crimp them very far, though.

 

[TacticalBoltKnob]

Got it to work!

Don't know what I did, but I unscrewed the die, gave it a wrap on the table and screwed her back in and adjusted her and it seems to be crimping now.

A light crimp seems to be about 2/3s of a turn past contact with the shell holder. A full turn is pretty heavy and seems to be crushing the bullet excessively. I experimented on two dummy rounds.

This one will have me scratching my head.

But hey, whatever. It works now...

 

[pinsandpitons]

I too used it for SMKs and Bergers (uncannelurerd), but according to the documentation supplied by Lee, (which I am merely passing on) it is for bullets with a crimp-ring or a canelure. But good job calling me out for my shameful ignorance and misleading advice.

 

[TacticalBoltKnob]

Thanks, guys. I don't know what I was doing wrong but it seems to be working now. If I could delete the thread, I would.

By the by, Lee advertises this die for cannelured or non-cannelured bullets, and even says it can help accuracy with non-cannelured bullet loadings. The info and opinions out there on this seems to be split, so I thought I would see for my self. You never know till you try...

 

[RyeDaddy]

I love a happy ending, glad it worked out.

I too used it for SMKs and Bergers (uncannelurerd), but according to the documentation supplied by Lee, (which I am merely passing on) it is for bullets with a crimp-ring or a canelure. But good job calling me out for my shameful ignorance and misleading advice.

That's what we're here for, you shameful ignorant bastard. *Joke*
That manual, along with lots of others are signs of our times. They should rewrite that part of the instructions to read:

"If you're stupid, clumsy or otherwise do not fully understand how this device works please only use it on cannelured bullets so you don't cut through the jacket of match bullets and tell everybody that our product ruined your accuracy".

 

[Fuzzball]

People who use Lee's factory crimp dies incorrectly always get incorrect results but that's not the dies' fault.

 

[TacticalBoltKnob]

People who use Lee's factory crimp dies incorrectly always get incorrect results but that's not the dies' fault.

Well, since I used it correctly, I guess I don't have to worry about that.

 

[HAZORD]

The one question I would have, would be are your cases the proper length? If you have trimmed them too short, they would most likely not reach the crimping part of the die.

 

[Twoboxer]

You may have solved your problem but I don't think you inserted the die in the press correctly, and that may be why the FCD appeared to do nothing. Read the instructions to check me on this, but . . .

Run a completed round up into the press. Then thread the die down until you feel it (the collet) contact the brass case. Lower the finished round. Now tighten the die 1/2 turn more for a mild crimp; more for more crimp.

If you want what the FCD does, and you use it right, it's a great die.

 

[Steve1]

I'd just like to add that I love my Lee Crimp Die. None of my bullets have a canllelured. (Did I spell that right?) Just don't over do the crimp. A light crimp is all I put on mine. Those loads are proving extremely accurate....

 

[RyeDaddy]

The Lee FCD is a good tool to have. Used mine to circumsize my son, not sure if that's considered cannelured or not but worked great.

 

[Steve1]

Say, that's a great idea!

 

[TacticalBoltKnob]

You may have solved your problem but I don't think you inserted the die in the press correctly, and that may be why the FCD appeared to do nothing. Read the instructions to check me on this, but . . .

Nope. I did everything correctly. I changed nothing on the time it wasn't working and on the times it did work.

But the issue is resolved. We are beating a dead horse now.

 

[EXTREMEPREJUDICE]

But the issue is resolved.

Glad it's worked out, makes you wonder though what was wrong?

 

[TacticalBoltKnob]

Glad it's worked out, makes you wonder though what was wrong?

My only guess is that that inner crimping sleeve wasn't seated all the way or seated correctly. Who knows...

 

[former naval person]

I find that a little heavy duty grease on the part of the fingers that contact the die makes it work smoother too.

 

[Bender]

I too used it for SMKs and Bergers (uncannelurerd), but according to the documentation supplied by Lee, (which I am merely passing on) it is for bullets with a crimp-ring or a canelure. But good job calling me out for my shameful ignorance and misleading advice.

 

[Twoboxer]

NM

 

[SPAK]

Just curious, why are you crimping your .308 loads? Is it for a gas gun?

 

[KUSA]

Just curious, by are you crimping your .308 loads? Is it for a gas gun?

Lee claims better accuracy due to more consistent tension on the bullet. I think he wanted to test that claim out.

 

[ArmyJerry]

Funny thread, glad you got it worked out OP.

 

[TacticalBoltKnob]

Well, gentleman… did a little shooting today to test the crimp out and the results were interesting.

As you may known from my other thread "What can cause inconsistent velocities?", I have been having some accuracy drop off lately due to inconsistent velocities. But what was causing the inconsistent velocities? Well, of course in that thread, 100 people had 100 different opinions. Effing Internet forums, right? If you want to be more confused than when you started, ask a question on the Internet.

But what I did gather is that my neck tension was probably erratic and the shoulder pressure on the rifle when firing was probably not as consistent as it could be.

So I got my Lee Factory Crimp Die working, as you all know, and loaded up some rounds. I crimped 15 rounds of the 50. 10 had a medium crimp, I would say, and 5 had a light crimp. This was the 4th firing on this Lapua brass with no annealing or neck turning.

I fired 5-shot groups using the exact same technique from group to group. Off a bench, bidpod, rear sand bag, tight pull into shoulder each time, relaxed trigger arm, grip and trigger pull.

Well, all 35 uncrimped rounds had shit groups. And I mean shit, like 2-3"

All 15 crimped rounds had sub-MOA groups.

Medium crimp groups: .968" and .793"
Light crimp group: .326"

Looks like the light crimp was the winner.

I believe my inconsistent shoulder pressure on the butt stock and my inconsistent neck pressure is what has been throwing my shots off lately.

I am not saying that a light crimp is better than annealing and neck turning. Because, obviously, if you do those two things correctly, a crimp would be unnecessary. So until I get into annealing and neck turning, I will be lightly crimping my rounds.

Just thought you guys might like an update. Sorry I couldn't chrono any of the rounds to see if the velocities were consistent. I didn't have the chrono with me today.

 

[ArmyJerry]

What would neck turning annealing and crimping do?

 

[TacticalBoltKnob]

What would neck turning annealing and crimping do?

I don't know. If I was annealing and neck turning, I wouldn't crimp.

 

[KUSA]

How much was your light crimp in terms of how you had the die adjusted?

 

[TacticalBoltKnob]

How much was your light crimp in terms of how you had the die adjusted?

I would say 2/3s of a turn past contact with the shell holder. They say to turn in the die till it contacts the shell holder, then another half turn to start. I did this, and there was no visible crimp. There might be a crimp, but it was not visible. So I turned it a cunt hair, then crimped again. I did this a few times until I could see the lightest of crimp ridges. I would estimate about 2/3s of a turn total from contact with the shell holder. I will most likely duplicated this same process (turning the die in a little bit at a time) every time I crimp.

 

[badmutha6]

Why not throw a caliper on it and verify? I've read that .002 crimp is enough. I've also read not to crimp because it can still further cause inaccuracies. I'm just getting back into reloading and setting up the lab but I'm curious. Crimp or no crimp? I won't be annealling cases, just trimming and following the stickies on the reloading side but doing my research (I'm not new to reloading but its been about 6 years and I want to get some accurate loads/procedures). Some say yes, some say no. Thoughts?