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Rifle Scopes What Element of Optics Design Gives "Full-Screen"?

Grump

Gunny Sergeant
Full Member
Minuteman
Oct 23, 2008
1,217
11
So. Utah
My latest acquisition is a Falcon Menace 4-14 or whatever. I've noticed that the image area from the "user interface" position does not "fill" the eyepiece.

Kinda like how some CRT computer monitors had almost an inch of glass outside the image mask.

Some through-the-scope pics posted here seem to show images that fill almost the entire ocular lens glass.

Sohowcome? Any notable brands or models that are better or worse on this (AFICanTell) little-discussed element of performance?
 
Re: What Element of Optics Design Gives "Full-Scre

Hi mate,

I had the same trouble, and just ran with it assuming the scope was set up correctly (given that I have not had to alter any of my previous scopes). However that was a bad move on my part and I now know better! Try adjusting the rear eye piece until the image fills it - you should also find that by doing so the cross-hair comes into much better focus.

Hope that helps...

Matthais_31
 
Re: What Element of Optics Design Gives "Full-Screen"?

Grump,
To get the full screen effect, your eye to the lense needs to be set at the proper distance. If you are new to using higher powered scopes it is common to have issues getting a good view. You may consider using it on a lower power setting until you feel confortable with it.
A few things need to happen when mounting a new scope. First, focus the reticle to your vision. Next, mount the scope on your rifle so that you have Full picture when you pull the rifle to your shoulder. Your scope instructions will tell you how to focus the eyepiece. When I mount a scope on a rifle I put it on about where I think it should go, (in the rings loosly) then I shoulder the rifle with my eyes closed, when I feel confortable I open them and I should have a full picture, if not, adjust as needed and repeat.
I hope this helps. SScott
 
Re: What Element of Optics Design Gives "Full-Screen"?

Some scopes "disappear" more than others even when set up correctly.

I borrowed my son's hunting rifle this season and it carries a Bushnell Banner 4-12. It's like using a holo sight on an AR. The scope is almost "not there".

I've had other scopes that no matter how I set them up they take up a huge "donut" in my field of view.

So, I too have wondered about what aspect of scope design determines this. "Zero Scope Donut" is now on my New Scope Wish List.

John
 
Re: What Element of Optics Design Gives "Full-Screen"?

I think there is two factors playing together to create the "sight picture only" effect.

First of all the optical system has to deliver an image that "fills" the ocular lens completely. The opposite of this is what you can observe with many variable scopes when you turn down the power and get a "tunneling effect", meaning the magnification gets lower but the FOV doesn't increase.
Secondly, it is simply a skinny ocular shell, meaning low wall thickness that gets into the way and shows as the "donut" around the picture.

The first factor is surely desirable, but I'm not so sure about the second one. It might just come down to weighing (potential) durability against a pleasing subjective impression.
 
Re: What Element of Optics Design Gives "Full-Scre

Also eye relief will change slightly as magnification increases or decreases. I set my scopes in the middle mag range and then adjust for eye relief.

Some scopes are just not gonna be very forgiving in this regard and you have to be right there in perfect position behind it to get a good sight picture, some scopes are very, very forgiving and something I consider a big plus. Go somewhere that has a good variety of scopes and look through them all, move it around while your looking through it and you'll start to get an idea about how eye relief works and what is acceptable or not to you.
 
Re: What Element of Optics Design Gives "Full-Screen"?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: jrob300</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Some scopes "disappear" more than others even when set up correctly.
[snip]
I've had other scopes that no matter how I set them up they take up a huge "donut" in my field of view.

So, I too have wondered about what aspect of scope design determines this. "Zero Scope Donut" is now on my New Scope Wish List.

John </div></div>
John gets the question. It's kinda like the difference between "wide angle" binoculars and "regular" ones, just without burying your eye into the ocular.

I've worn glasses since 2nd grade, so I *know* about eye relief.
 
Re: What Element of Optics Design Gives "Full-Screen"?

Funny, I was thinking of a NCstar scope someone wanted me to sight in once, it had a blue screen error....
 
Re: What Element of Optics Design Gives "Full-Screen"?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Grump</div><div class="ubbcode-body"> It's kinda like the difference between "wide angle" binoculars and "regular" ones, just without burying your eye into the ocular.</div></div>
The "wide-angle" effect means the scope has a relatively wider field of view (FOV). If two scopes have the same magnification, the scope with a greater FOV will appear to give a wider angle view. The FOV is usually presented in the list of optical characteristics as a linear width at a specific distance for a given magnification. For example, the FOV of the Premier 3-15X scope is 12.8m (@3x) and 2.8m (@15x) at a distance of 100m.
 
Re: What Element of Optics Design Gives "Full-Screen"?

Which element?

Correct answer is the limiting element, which dictates "aperture stop" better know as f/# (f number or f stop).

In other words, whichever piece of optics limit your field of view dictates over all optical system aperture stop.

Kind of like you're asking what is the maximum of the plumbing system - it's the smallest pipe in the system - the limiting element.
 
Re: What Element of Optics Design Gives "Full-Screen"?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: Powder Burns</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Funny, I was thinking of a NCstar scope someone wanted me to sight in once, it had a blue screen error.... </div></div>

NCStars use Windows?
 
Re: What Element of Optics Design Gives "Full-Screen"?

Our new Viper PST's have eye relief designed specifically to reduce the "black doughnut" to a minimum. There is just a very thin outline of the scope eyepiece when you look through them. This combined with long 4in eye relief make them very pleasing to look through.

It is especially nice on the 1-4x24, you barely see the scope at all. Combined with a true 1x it very much gives the feeling of having the reticle float out in front of you, rather than looking through a tube.

-Sam
 
Re: What Element of Optics Design Gives "Full-Screen"?

K, Sam, now 'splain howzit youze guys make dat happen.
 
Re: What Element of Optics Design Gives "Full-Screen"?

<div class="ubbcode-block"><div class="ubbcode-header">Originally Posted By: toovira</div><div class="ubbcode-body">Which element?

Correct answer is the limiting element, which dictates "aperture stop" better know as f/# (f number or f stop).

In other words, whichever piece of optics limit your field of view dictates over all optical system aperture stop.

Kind of like you're asking what is the maximum of the plumbing system - it's the smallest pipe in the system - the limiting element. </div></div>

toovira,

there seems to be a mix-up happening here between aperture stop and field stop. Those are two distinctively different things and the one that limits the FOV of an optical system is the field stop.

An aperture stop limits the amount of light that passes the optical system and does not affect FOV at all.

I once made the sketches below to help explaining the connection between objective diameter, exit pupil and eye pubil when it comes to image brightness on a German forum. There's a little more information in the images than necessary for this case here, but it might be interesting to some anyway, so I’m going to try if I can manage a decent explanation in English this time.

schema_strahlengang2-1.jpg

This image is a <span style="font-weight: bold">heavily simplified</span> (seriously, keep that in mind) scetch of the optics in a riflescope.

[1] is the target. We're going to follow tho "rays" of light emerging from two points of the target through the scope, into the eye and right on the shooter's retina. The dashed blue ray emerges from the center of the target, the dashed yellow one from the edge (meaning the edge of the field of view of the scope).
The solid lines indicate those rays emerging from the two spots on our target but hitting the edge of the objective lens. Remember that any visible object reflects light in every direction (that's why you can move around and see stuff from different angles), and what the scope objective does is catch a "cone" of light emerging from every point of the target. Since this is a 2D sketch, the blue and yellow "cone of light" are represented by the dashed "center rays" and the solid "edge rays".

[2] The objective system, for the sake of simplicity represented here by a single lens focuses the light cones and creates

[3] an upside-dwon image of the target in the first focal plane. This is also where the reticle is placed in an FFP scope. There can also be a field stop placed in this focal plane, indicated by the black posts (of course this is a round hole in a real scope). In this example this field stop limits the FOV of the scope. You can see that the yellow bundle of rays just barely clears the edge of the field stop, a ray emerging from a point above the yellow dot would be focused on the black post and thus be blocked from the shooter’s view.

[4] is the erector system, again for the sake of simplicity this is just a single lens here, in a real scope it consists of several lenses that in part move back and forth in a variable scope and are housed in a complicated mechanical contraption. For now, it is enough to know that the erector system inverts (erects) the upside-down image from the first focal plane and creates another image in

[6] the second focal plane. This is where the reticle is placed in an SFP scope, an again a field stop can be placed here. In this sketch the field stop in the second focal plane is big enough to let all the rays pass, so the FOV is not restricted any further.

[7] is the ocular system (again shown as a single element) which allows the eye to look at the magnified image.

[8] The eye lens focuses the light on

[9] the retina. This image is upside-down again but our brains take care of that, kind of a mental erector system.
wink.gif


Now where’s that elusive aperture stop sitting? As with the focal planes, there’s two of them in the scope. The first one is simply

[2] the objective lens diameter. It limits the size of the cone of light that enters the objective (indicated by the two black arrows). The second one is positioned at

[5] in front of the second focal plane. Note that at the aperture stops the yellow (dashed) center ray crosses the optical axis, just as it does in the objective in position [2]. There isn’t necessarily an aperture in this position creating an aperture stop, but one could be placed there if desirable for some reason.

[8] is another aperture stop, this time not inside the scope but in the eye of the shooter. It is simply your eye pupil that is small in bright light and might be up to 8mm in diameter for younger people and with night adapted vision.

offen_ap_ep.gif

This gif animation shows what happens if you restrict the clear aperture (objective diameter) or decrease the eye pupil size.

Frame 1 is simply the optical system from the image above.

Frame 2 shows what happens when the eye pupil is smaller than the exit pupil of the scope. The iris acts as an aperture stop that limits the cone of light entering the eye. Note that this has nothing to do with the FOV, it just lowers the brightness of the image.

Frame 3 shows the bundles of light entering the scope (and the eye) when the objective diameter is limited (smaller aperture stop at position [2]). If you look closely, you will notice that the cone of light entering the eye is absolutely the same for frame 2 and frame 3, so both cases are optically equivalent for the shooter. The original point of the animation was to show that increasing the objective diameter is not going to increase image brightness indefinitely, but rather only as long as the eye pupil can keep up with the increasing exit pupil (remember exit pupil diameter equals objective diameter divided by magnification). Having a 12mm exit pupil is not going to yield a brighter image that a 7mm exit pupil if your eye pupil only opens to 7mm anyway.

For the case at hand it is also important to note that restricting the aperture stop [2] does nothing to the FOV at all. That is why the objective size of a scope has nothing to do with it’s FOV, which is a common misunderstanding.

An aperture stop determines the size of the “cone of light” that passes an optical system, a field stop determines the field of view, and those are basically independent of each other.

I hope some readers have made it to this point and not everyone has fallen asleep yet. Merry Christmas.
wink.gif
 
Re: What Element of Optics Design Gives "Full-Screen"?

Never ceases to amaze me the people that you find on here and the knowledge that you can learn from!This place is awesome...
 
Re: What Element of Optics Design Gives "Full-Screen"?

Thank you, David S. You are a hero of the lets-make-the-world-a-better-place realm by sharing your knowledge in a sufficiently simplified manner.

So, would the optical "donut" as described in this thread be a result of a FFP field stop being used at a more "narrow" value (I can imagine that might be good for hiding lens defects--use less of the light from the lenses' edges), from an ocular system that has a field stop that cuts into the field of view, or either/both?

Sam from Vortex might be back on-line tomorrow, so his take on this would also be welcome.

IME with binoculars, "wide angle" ones let me scan the fat image by turning my eyes farther from my head's centerline and still see image instead of black, than "regular angle" binoculars do. Because of eye relief issues, the wide angle part is usually wasted and unavailable if your eyes are farther back behind eyeglass or sunglass lenses.
 
Re: What Element of Optics Design Gives "Full-Screen"?

Hi Grump,

David's post is very informative and I think definitely offers some insights into how this phenomenon is achieved, however there are other things to it that I really can't reveal in detail due to it being proprietary design information that I'd rather not show the competition.

Mostly I was just pointing out that if people were looking for a scope with this feature the Viper PST's are going to have it.

Sorry, if this isn't exactly what you wanted, but I hope you understand that I can't really go into any more detail than that.

-Sam