- Thread starter Tony1320
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Yikes is that chipping off? What action is that and who did the DLC?
I would rather not throw the manufacturer of the action under the bus, but that action had less than 1500 rounds down it. Action came DLC'ed from the manufacturer (I am sure they have a subcontractor)
This is not the first one I have seen. DLC has been around for a long time and the gun world went away from it. Now it has made a comeback.
The metal under the DLC has no hardening and really makes it into just a fancy paint.
What would be your finish of choice?
I must be crazy but I thought nitride and DLC were almost the same.
I can’t remember what mine is but I got it from Bugholes. It’s very slick and has done very well on. It showing wear.
I can’t remember what mine is but I got it from Bugholes. It’s very slick and has done very well on. It showing wear.
I don't like cerakote on moving parts. It makes things feel gummy. Also wears off pretty fast where parts make contact.
It’s most likely Nitride. Even though it’s wearing off the metal is still treated underneath. Nitride is a metal hardening process that some like and some say is a no go. I have a nitride Defiance action from bugholes. Those actionsfrom bugholes are nitrided by the company that Defiance has picked for the process. So far it’s really slick. Don’t have very many rounds through it yet.
https://www.crypticcoatings.com/bolt-carrier-group-coatings/
"THE PVD & CVD PROCESSES
What is PVD?
PVD is the abbreviation of Physical Vapor Deposition. PVD is a process that produces a family of coatings. The staple of the family is titanium nitride (TiN) however: chromium nitride (CrN), aluminum titanium nitride (AlTiN) are other examples of PVD coatings. This technology gained popularity in the 70’s when the military adapted it to solve a wide range of issues regarding friction and wear of metal parts. The term physical vapor deposition was first used in 1966 but the process can be traced back as far as 1838 to a scientist named Michael Faraday. The most current version of physical vapor deposition was completed in 2010 by NASA scientists at the NASA Glenn Research Center in Cleveland, Ohio. The process is carried out in high vacuum chambers, well below atmospheric pressures.
How does the PVD process work?
Parts are sealed in an air tight chamber that is pumped down several atmospheres. A negative voltage applied to the parts attract the positive ion molecules bombarded from hard targets (i.e. titanium, chromium etc.). This bombardment is a high-power electric arc that produces a highly ionized vapor. At the same time, a reactive gas (i.e. nitrogen or a gas containing carbon) is introduced; it forms a compound with the metal vapor and is deposited on the parts as a thin, highly adherent coating. In order to obtain a uniform coating thickness, the parts are rotated at uniform speed about several axes.
What is CVD?
CVD is the abbreviation Chemical Vapor Deposition. Chemical vapor deposition is a chemical process used to produce high-purity, high-performance solid materials. One such material is Diamond-Like-Carbon (DLC). Since 1952 when William Eversole grew the first diamond in a vacuum chamber, DLC thin film use has grown tremendously. DLC coatings feature excellent hardness, wear and low friction properties under dry or deficient lubrication conditions. They are ideally suited for mechanical assemblies with sliding and rolling movements
How does the CVD process work?
Parts are sealed in an air tight chamber that is pumped down several atmospheres. Then a high-frequency voltage is applied and gases containing significant amounts of sp3 are introduced. This creates carbon and hydrogen atoms that form a dense coating on the parts.
Why use PVD or CVD?
- First off the surface is very hard and smooth making it an extremely high wear resistance coating.
- The friction coefficient is greatly reduced requiring less lubrication.
- Operating temperatures are lowered.
BLACK NITRIDE PROCESS
Nitriding is a heat treating process that diffuses nitrogen into the surface of a metal to improve the surface priorities of the metal. There are three common types of nitriding. Salt Bath, Gas and Plasma nitriding.
Salt bath nitriding process sometimes referred to as "Black Nitride", Melonite or liquid nitriding is widely used in the firearms industry. Case hardening is the usually the primary benefit of the process. The “black” appearance is a result of the nitriding process.
Black Nitride liquid salt bath is maintained between 500 - 630°C (930 - 1165°F). Nitrogen-bearing salts produce a controlled and highly uniform release of nitrogen at the interface of the workpiece. Nitrogen diffuses into, and chemically combines with, nitride-forming elements in the metal. Through a catalytic reaction, this produces a tough, ductile compound layer with exceptional engineering and wear properties.
Benefits of Black Nitride:
- Improved wear resistance (case hardened to 55 HRC)
- Improved friction properties (0.45 CoF)
- Anti-scuffing/seizure protection Excellent corrosion protection
- Good surface fatigue resistance
- Enhanced corrosion resistance
- Uniform black surface"
Area419 Nitrided my action and it’s slick as snot.
https://www.ionbond.com/coating-services/
"Ionbond Brand Names
Crosscut™ AlCrN coating for cutting tools
Hardcut TiSiN coating for cutting tools
Maximizer AlTiN coatings for cutting tools
Ionbond™ PVD coatings for cutting and forming & molding tools
Bernex™ CVD coatings for cutting and forming & molding tools
Decobond™ PVD coatings for decorative applications
Diamondblack™ ADLC coating for luxury goods
Tribobond™ PVD and PACVD coatings for components
Tetrabond™ Non hydrogenated DLC coating for tools"
And the cryptic coatings I mentioned above does that stuff on toolcraft carrier groups, toolcraft does some of their own I think?
https://www.toolcraftinc.com/coatings/
"DLC
Ionbond Diamond Like Coating is a metal finish applied through a Physical Vapor Deposition (PVD) process. It is a tough corrosion proof coating, with excellent friction properties. The Ionbond Black DLC will not chip, crack or peel, providing you with years of protection against wear while maintaining its integrity. It is so strong that it is virtually scratch proof."
Sooooo, Cryptic says that DLC is a CVD, Ionbond itself says that Ionbond is a PVD, Toolcraft says that DLC is a PVD... take that convoluted mess for what it is.
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I have two actions in DLC/IonBond, one in a Walter Birdsong finish, and one in Cerakote.
The DLC/IonBond I love. Both actions are 1-2 years old, so they have only seen a few thousand cycles each. Too early to provide a reliability report, but so far no concerns. The actions feel slick, lubed or not. I'm able to run these actions "wet" or dry, if fine dust is a concern at any match I'm shooting.
The birdsong finish is great as well. I have over 5,000+ cycles on it, and there is some wear of the finish. The wear is very acceptable and expected of a rifle with this many cycles - no concerns there. Again, runs great wet or dry. Corrosion resistance has been great.
The Cerakote is the worst coating, IMO. Even on an action with 5,000+ cycles, it's still a bit gummy and worse than the other coatings/finishes above. Cerakote chips, is a thicker coating, and has no lubricity to it. With all the options available today, I would never again coat an action with Cerakote.
The DLC/IonBond I love. Both actions are 1-2 years old, so they have only seen a few thousand cycles each. Too early to provide a reliability report, but so far no concerns. The actions feel slick, lubed or not. I'm able to run these actions "wet" or dry, if fine dust is a concern at any match I'm shooting.
The birdsong finish is great as well. I have over 5,000+ cycles on it, and there is some wear of the finish. The wear is very acceptable and expected of a rifle with this many cycles - no concerns there. Again, runs great wet or dry. Corrosion resistance has been great.
The Cerakote is the worst coating, IMO. Even on an action with 5,000+ cycles, it's still a bit gummy and worse than the other coatings/finishes above. Cerakote chips, is a thicker coating, and has no lubricity to it. With all the options available today, I would never again coat an action with Cerakote.
Just to clear a few things up here. Comparing all three is basically comparing apples to oranges to pears. All three are different and have their strengths and weakness’s.
Cerakote is strictly a paint/coating. If Cerakoting, make sure when ordering your actions (Defiance particularly) to make sure your bolt diameter is clearanced for it. Make sure a reputable person is also coating. Experience with Cerakote is imparative. If done correctly and on parts clearanced for it Cerakote can be slick as any other action coating. Plus, Cerakote color options are endless. Cerakote will wear like any other coating but the new ELITE series is incrediabky harder and thinner. I think it will be the new coating of choice for all the above. If I’m not mistaken, the new ELITE series has a header RC rating then most metal treatments.
Melonited/Nitride/SBN is a metal treatment. It hardens the metal and metallurgically changes the metal itself to a point. The black coating it leaves is a byproduct. It wears off quickly on moving parts that tough each other and you can get it in any color you want as long as that color is black. Depending on the company they may or may not warranty your action due to the temperatures the Nitride is done at.
DLC/Ionbond is almost a mix of both of these above. It is a coating but is also chemically applied so it bonds to the metal surface at a molecular level. DLC is applied at a significantly lower temp then Nitride. It leaves a coating only 3-5 microns thick which means most parts don’t even need to be clearanced for it. It also comes in select colors. It wears extremely well as long as nothing chips or breaks through the finish itself. Once it chips though it will continue to peel or chip unless re-finished.
Personal experience with all 3 (except for the Elite Series) I prefer a mix of Cerakote/DLC. That’s if looking for a particular color. If going black or FDE I would prefer DLC all over.
I currently have a Short Action Customs 6.5 PRC and the barreled Action is cerakoted and the bolt body has been Melonited. It’s extremely slick and it’s only had 50-100 cycles on it. SAC’s Cerakote game though is by far one of the best that I have ever seen.
Cerakote is strictly a paint/coating. If Cerakoting, make sure when ordering your actions (Defiance particularly) to make sure your bolt diameter is clearanced for it. Make sure a reputable person is also coating. Experience with Cerakote is imparative. If done correctly and on parts clearanced for it Cerakote can be slick as any other action coating. Plus, Cerakote color options are endless. Cerakote will wear like any other coating but the new ELITE series is incrediabky harder and thinner. I think it will be the new coating of choice for all the above. If I’m not mistaken, the new ELITE series has a header RC rating then most metal treatments.
Melonited/Nitride/SBN is a metal treatment. It hardens the metal and metallurgically changes the metal itself to a point. The black coating it leaves is a byproduct. It wears off quickly on moving parts that tough each other and you can get it in any color you want as long as that color is black. Depending on the company they may or may not warranty your action due to the temperatures the Nitride is done at.
DLC/Ionbond is almost a mix of both of these above. It is a coating but is also chemically applied so it bonds to the metal surface at a molecular level. DLC is applied at a significantly lower temp then Nitride. It leaves a coating only 3-5 microns thick which means most parts don’t even need to be clearanced for it. It also comes in select colors. It wears extremely well as long as nothing chips or breaks through the finish itself. Once it chips though it will continue to peel or chip unless re-finished.
Personal experience with all 3 (except for the Elite Series) I prefer a mix of Cerakote/DLC. That’s if looking for a particular color. If going black or FDE I would prefer DLC all over.
I currently have a Short Action Customs 6.5 PRC and the barreled Action is cerakoted and the bolt body has been Melonited. It’s extremely slick and it’s only had 50-100 cycles on it. SAC’s Cerakote game though is by far one of the best that I have ever seen.
DLC is basically a thin film of carbon where the bonds between the carbon atoms are the tetrahedral bonds you usually find in diamond instead of the flat trigonal bonds you find in graphite. Think of it as a diamond that hasn't managed to crystallize.
The film is very hard, being pretty much diamond, but is only bonded to the surface of the metal like a paint and is only a few microns thick. Also like diamond, it can chip as hardness is not the same as toughness.
For nitriding, you're not applying a film. What you are doing is getting nitrogen to infiltrate into the surface layer of the metal. This hardens the metal in the area with high nitrogen concentration. While this isn't as hard as dlc or as slippery, it is better bonded to the rest of the metal, so it probably has better toughness.
DLC and nitriding will both protect your action, but neither is magic.
(I have no significant experience with precision actions but did study material science in college)
The film is very hard, being pretty much diamond, but is only bonded to the surface of the metal like a paint and is only a few microns thick. Also like diamond, it can chip as hardness is not the same as toughness.
For nitriding, you're not applying a film. What you are doing is getting nitrogen to infiltrate into the surface layer of the metal. This hardens the metal in the area with high nitrogen concentration. While this isn't as hard as dlc or as slippery, it is better bonded to the rest of the metal, so it probably has better toughness.
DLC and nitriding will both protect your action, but neither is magic.
(I have no significant experience with precision actions but did study material science in college)
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Problem with nitride is most processes happen at temperatures that fully temper or even normalize the "core" material (otherwise it would take years, if not decades to infuse enough nitrogen to get the same effect), greatly weakening it. So while you get a .005-.010" thick surface that is 72 HRC, if a crack develops in an over-pressure situation, the wall of most receivers isn't thick enough for the greater ductility of the now soft core to absorb enough of the energy and the cracks just propagate and the receiver shatters. Under normal circumstances it doesn't appear to be an issue-- I haven't seen a rash of stainless (or otherwise) nitrided receivers blowing up, and you're in the land of "Exactly how bad was the bad thing that made my receiver fail?".. so no real concrete defined line of "do not cross" is really out there... but you are no doubt cutting into your safety margin for bad things we never plan to happen that ultimately will happen to someone eventually.
If you do decide to DLC use Club Customs Guns. He will usually polish the race way and hit a few other points to really smooth an action out then he will DLC it. He’s been doing them along time and has the process down. He’s done a few for me over the years
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So after some more time. DLC or birdsong?
