What is the cause of this?

Matches Malone

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I'm just going to take this slow and answer any questions to help trouble shoot this..I've very curious.
So there is this black soot on my necks and these cases get stuck in the chamber..however if i take a cleaning rod i can just touch the case and it pops out..not hitting or pushing required. No sticky bolt. I've cleaned the rifle, so its definitely the handloads.
Using H1000 and 212gr ELDx with Federal brass.
These all ranged from 69gr to 71.2gr. Pressure is up there but I wouldn't call it excessive. Bullet seated to mag length and verified not on the lands.
Any ideas about the soot and the stuck cases?
 

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supercorndogs

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Sounds like your extractor is not grabbing them. What kind of rifle? Remington mag bolt face? Soot looks normal.
 

spife7980

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Agreed, sounds like you have no extraction because if it just takes an ever so slight touch then it should extract with no issues if yours was functioning.
 

MtnCreek

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When you say stuck in the chamber, do you mean the bolt will not extract them?

Necks look a little excessively sooty. I'd check to see if that area of the chamber is clean. Probably not the problem.

Could also be expansion just above the belt where a FL die can't reach. The typ FL die for WM is made to push the shoulder back to factory spec, which is way more the the 0.002 required for proper re-sizing. That combined with the clearance built into the die to stay off the belt makes for a good bit of case body not getting sized.

FWIW, date stamped FC brass has reduced capacity compared to Win.
 

Milo 2.5

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Agreed, sounds like you have no extraction because if it just takes an ever so slight touch then it should extract with no issues if yours was functioning.

That'd be the first thing I looked at too, does your bolt handle area when raised to extract a shell actually come in contact with the angle on the back top of the receiver?
 

shoot4fun

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    No one knows what brand action you're using but they are quick to blame primary extraction for the problem.
    How many times have those cases been fired?
    Unless the entire body (right down to the belt) is sized back to proper dimension then your shoulder bump will be inconsistent for the chamber.
    I always recommend the Larry Willis Innovative Technologies Collet Die for proper sizing to the belt for belted cases.
    It has allowed me to load much more accurate and trouble free 300 WM ammo. Also, using the die aids in longevity for that precious brass.
     

    spife7980

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    No one knows what brand action you're using but they are quick to blame primary extraction for the problem.

    Well it stands to reason that if he isnt encountering any difficulty with bolt operation that it would have to be, no?

     

    Milo 2.5

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    No one knows what brand action you're using but they are quick to blame primary extraction for the problem.
    How many times have those cases been fired?
    Unless the entire body (right down to the belt) is sized back to proper dimension then your shoulder bump will be inconsistent for the chamber.
    I always recommend the Larry Willis Innovative Technologies Collet Die for proper sizing to the belt for belted cases.
    It has allowed me to load much more accurate and trouble free 300 WM ammo. Also, using the die aids in longevity for that precious brass.

    Hey, it is the easiest of all to rule out.
     

    shoot4fun

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    Hey, it is the easiest of all to rule out.

    I do not discount primary extraction at all. I've seen it in R700 actions way too often. Not all his brass fails to extract but it could be the issue is not as bad on his as I have seen in others.
    I am just saying not all rifles we discuss here are R700 actions.
     

    Matches Malone

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    The extractor is intact and fine. the case when putting the rifle in a high port type position and to doing a slight mortar stop will not knock the casing out. a cleaning rod pushing forward pops it right out.
    these are once time fired brass, fired in my rifle from factory ammo that i saved over a few years. Not suppressed. Remington 700 LA on a XLR chassis using factory bolt. Bolt cam works fine, though my 308 is much crisper cam action, headspace was verified late last year to be good to go.
    I was told by a guy i trust to investigate the trim length.
    The soot forsure is the reload. I thought it was left over unique case lube that the tumbler hadnt gotten off... but im not sure.
    For the expansion just above the belt where a FL die can't reach, i can try measuring fired brass recently, and the once fired brass not reloaded to see if theres any expansion above the belt...
     

    Milo 2.5

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    I do not discount primary extraction at all. I've seen it in R700 actions way too often. Not all his brass fails to extract but it could be the issue is not as bad on his as I have seen in others.
    I am just saying not all rifles we discuss here are R700 actions.

    Yes, you are right on that, but best to rule shit out one at a time, easiest first, a guy can get 10 suggestions in a short period of time, gets overwhelming.
    The soot on the necks is most likely an oversize neck in the chamber not letting the brass seal off quick enough. Not sure what to think of the magnum primer thing.
    It sounds like the extraction is there, time to address the case base.
     

    supercorndogs

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    No one knows what brand action you're using but they are quick to blame primary extraction for the problem.
    How many times have those cases been fired?
    Unless the entire body (right down to the belt) is sized back to proper dimension then your shoulder bump will be inconsistent for the chamber.
    I always recommend the Larry Willis Innovative Technologies Collet Die for proper sizing to the belt for belted cases.
    It has allowed me to load much more accurate and trouble free 300 WM ammo. Also, using the die aids in longevity for that precious brass.

    Last comment by matches pretty brings us circle to this. If you are having to mortar them out, I would suspect expansion just above the belt. Perhaps too light of a charge is causing excessive pressure. I usually don't need the LW die after every loading unless the load is borderline.

    If you open the bolt normally and the brass stays in the chamber the extractor is where I would look. No matter the action really.
     

    Fishkat

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    Yes, you are right on that, but best to rule shit out one at a time, easiest first, a guy can get 10 suggestions in a short period of time, gets overwhelming.
    The soot on the necks is most likely an oversize neck in the chamber not letting the brass seal off quick enough. Not sure what to think of the magnum primer thing.
    It sounds like the extraction is there, time to address the case base.

    Since these are belted cases and the op is using over 69gn of H1000 leads me to believe this is a magnum cartridge. Therefore most loading manuals recommend and are based on the use of magnum primers to achieve a quick and complete burn with these slow powders. Just something to consider, he might actually see reduced pressure and increased velocity with magnum primers. And to make it simple, I was asking why he doesn't use magnum primers because I'm curious and always open to learn something new.
     

    Matches Malone

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    Oh sorry, i just realized after reading more comments and suggestions that i never mention this is a .300 win mag.
    Um as far as the primers go its a fact you can go either way, however my logic behind it was simply based off a load engineer i knew that worked for federal for awhile that suggested if under 80gr of powder to use a non magnum primer first, and that it will help with consistency and give just the right amount of jump or something or other. I dont know definitively if it was true or not. Anyways awhile back i took that advice and consistency have never been a problem. Even with this situation, i still got my best groups at 71.2 gr.
    As another poster said, fed brass def has a smaller case capacity, and the 212gr ELDx have a long bearing surface, and is a over all long bullet. I got up to 75gr and no pressure signs that i saw but the loads where getting compressed at that point.
     
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    Matches Malone

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    Ok. Loaded up 20 rounds today, and went to the range and shot them. I trimmed from 2.62 to 2.15. Used 71.2 gr of H1000. I cleaned behind the extractor. Used a spray on case lube instead of unique. Everything else was the usual for me. No sizing deviation.
    Results:
    No failure to extract. Not a single one. The soot was...a tiny there there but not even close to how bad it was before. I feel maybe if i go to 2.610 like the lyman manual said to that it will be groovy. Obviously it changed my poi and results from the last work ups...but that was expected.
     

    Wayne McNeely

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    In my experience, a lot of soot on the case neck is a result of low pressure. The case needs to expand to seal off the chamber, the more pressure, the faster the seal. This translates to only a portion of the neck will have soot as opposed to soot going all the way to the shoulder with a lower pressure round.
    On a Rem bolt, if the cartridge doesn't extract when the bolt handle is raised and pulled to the rear, you have an extractor that is starting to fail, or a very high pressure round. Now if the round was of higher pressures, then it would not come out of the chamber as easily as you said it does. This leaves me to conclude that your extractor is weak and needs to be replaced.

    Wayne
     

    paul1k2k

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    I'm a little confused but I think you have a very very simple problem. You said that "pressure is up there but not excessive", what kinds of pressure signs are you seeing and what velocity are your bullets running? I ask because 71 grains of H1000 in a 300 win mag is very low, below even the starting charge for a 210 grain bullet according to Berger. 75.5 being book max. I used to run 74.5 grains under a 210VLD and that was a very mild pressure load. Also, what's your COAL? Like Wayne said, your case isn't experiencing enough pressure for the neck to expand and you're seeing all that carbon push back between the case and chamber. The carbon that's filling to void between the case and chamber could also be creating a slight bond between the two and causing your extraction problem.
    Also, you mentioned that you trimmed your cases to 2.15? That would have trimmed your cases down below the body/shoulder junction. They should be at 2.61.

    So with that said, I think the entire problem is probably due to very low pressure. Including extraction. Over-pressure can cause an extraction problem but I don't think you're anywhere close to that.

    Here's what I would do:
    1. Clean your chamber really well
    2. Resize the cases that you've fired and use an expander ball for the this next resize. (You've had pressure pushing back from the outside of the neck)
    3. Reevaluate your pressure signs
    4. Unless you truly are seeing high pressure already, keep working up in powder charge weight. I would be aiming for an accuracy node somewhere in the 74-76g range for 28-2900 fps.